Changing the Armun Ashes buffer zones (ANT South Merge)

[Nemon]

(...)
- landscaping changes in the WG buffer zone between Armun Ashlands and TRV, maybe turning this zone into RR (Gnomey? Nemon?)(...)

Depends. As of now:

R R R
R RR R TRV
R R R RRTRV
A A A W TRV
A A A W TRV
A A A W TRV
A A A W TRV
W W WTRV
OTH OTH TRV

R being Roth, A Armun, TRV obvious, W West Gash and OTH obvious.
Changing W to R will require something between the Armun and Oth. I don't know what, but something.

Also, and purely my opinion, the vertical strip of W... whatever it ends up being, it should be heightened. The combined regions are flat and dull, an unfortunate leftover from the old pre height map days. Also, it would serve as a more logic way of enclosing the bowly dusty Armun.

Perhaps make a mountain range on the east side similar to that on the west, only somewhat smaller? It would then not require a third region type smacked between A and TRV. It would simply be A.

[arvisrend]

Nemon, I thought you were going to replace the WG under the AA by OTH? At least I remember some experiments to that extent in the map 4 file. Or is there no way AA and OTH could have a realistic transition using just their tilesets?

BTW, I have pretty much no opinion on the WG buffer zone between TRV and AA as it stands now, other than that it needs detailing and bug fixing (IIRC it had a landtear that was fixed manually, and there are still "landscars" remaining). I'm pretty much fine with anything here, as long as it doesn't produce an abrupt region change between something safe-looking like the TRV and something badass like the AA. I definitely agree with your heightening suggestion.

(I'm moving this discussion into a separate thread, by the way, since this one is purely for work.)

[Gnomey]

I believe the idea was basically to have a long Roth Roryn canyon, perhaps with a branch or two if it can be made to fit, which is doubtful. That should just about cover elevation, if handled correctly.

As for the WG strip south of the Armun Ashlands, if a direct Othreleth/Ashlands transition doesn't work, I'd think it would be fine to just leave the isolated strip of WG or anything else that looks good. Another idea would be to use the Velothi mountains pallet, though that might be a bit of a stretch.
It seems to me like the difference between having a very long and curved stretch of land that stands out from its surroundings and a shorter, straighter stretch of land that stands out from its surroundings.

[Nemon]

Extending the east Armun into the current filler WG by utilizing the same height principles (albeit reduced) as on the west side of Armun solves the A - TRV issues. Also, border matching mountains/hills is easy as long as you leave the border itself impassable. Then you can simply have different regions on either side of the ridge. Bethesda did this in vanilla and we've done it with the A - R border amongst others.

[Yeti]

For what it's worth, I'm in favor of Nemon's proposal. Extending a finger of RR into the WG area would look unnatural.

[arvisrend]

BTW, whatever you guys do about this, since it's going to contain mountains and tunnels, it'd be a good place to add those OE ruins we wanted to add without overloading low-level places like the TRV and the Askkaedh Coast.

[Gnomey]

Do you mean the OM ruins? The question would be why they would be in mountains. I actually imagined the remains of old Indoril estates or something; probably no interiors, or only small ones. I suppose some (former) border outposts in the mountains could work, though.

[arvisrend]

Uhm, yeah. OM, of course.

The question would be why they would be in mountains.

My reasoning was mainly that the OM tileset is associated with ultra-dangerous, haunted and trapped ruins one should give a wide berth unless one is really badass. This is no logical necessity, more of a consequence of their catacomb-like appearance and their role in TES3:Tribunal. Placing them in low-level zones (particularly those like TRV and the Askkaedh Coast, which really should feel like home as far as any place in Morrowind can do so) would take away from the gradient of exploration -- when I skill up and go to harder places, I want to see new architecture, rather than just bigger versions of the same stuff I've seen in the starting zones.

[Gnomey]

That's true. I do find it a bit of a pity, though, as I see a lot of potential in the OM tileset as an intermediary tileset that contains elements of Velothi, Daedric, Telvanni and Hlaalu architecture, among others. A sort of transitional fossil.
I've actually played around with the idea of early Indoril settlements before:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/196/gm8v.jpg[/img]

[Aeven]

That looks nice, Gnomey! Are these actually inhabited or true ruins?

[Gnomey]

They could really go either way. I tossed that together a while ago, though, and it naturally doesn't reflect how an Indoril estate would look like. I find the exterior pretty easy to work with, but the interior is a different matter, especially without new models. I suppose interiors would have a large basement like Redoran huts, because otherwise OM interiors would make shacks look like palaces.

Edit: On the whole, the best approach would probably be to keep to the ruined house models. One or two huts that go straight down into a OM or velothi cave basement could work, though.

[Yeti]

An inhabited OM town wouldn't work because of the run-down look of the interior pieces, but a ghost town similar to what Gnomey posted could be an interesting change of pace from the labyrinthine dungeon ruins we currently use the set for.

[Gnomey]

Apparently one of the most immediate results of TR's organizational changes is that I am making a ridiculous number of maps.

As there has been some discussion lately about getting new ints out, I thought it might be a good idea to reach a final resolution on how to handle the WG border region. It is likely to be one of the more dangerous areas of the Andothren-Thirr section, and as such, especially considering its current emptiness, has a large potential for new dungeons.
First, here's a much smaller version of [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24327]arvisrend's createmap[/url] of the section:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/823/85t6.jpg[/img]

Even if the region stays WG, it is under-detailed and requires work. From what I can tell nobody in this thread is really advocating keeping the strip WG, though. With that in mind, I have focused on the RR and AA regions when making the following proposals:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/849/dtiy.jpg[/img][img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/593/k0qh.jpg[/img][img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/593/3vue.jpg[/img][img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/546/kmno.jpg[/img][img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/607/ammb.jpg[/img]

A few things to note on those proposals:
-First, they are all very rough, just to give an idea of how the region might look. At any rate, as Nemon proposed, I think the mean elevation should be raised in the region. I'd also like to see a lot of the straighter mountain ranges made to look more natural.
-I do think making the whole strip AA or RR wouldn't look good. Both would make the region borders too squarish, and in the case of RR, the further it extends southwards the less natural it looks.
-I chose the northern limit for the changes very deliberately: there is an east-west RR mountain range there which, on its south side, is as straight as a ruler. I would like to see its south side changed.
-The southern limit of the changes is another question altogether. There is a Hlaalu outpost there that I am not too sure how to handle. It could work well as RR, as in the last proposal, but pulling RR that far south probably wouldn't look good. It could work as TRV, maybe. Because it opens up into the Thirr River Valley, I'd rather it not be changed to AA.
-I think it is rather hard to plan the southernmost border without knowing how Othreleth will be handled.

Now that I look at the proposals, I do think having a strip of AA mountains as in the first proposal looks good, and perhaps more TRV mountains than shown. Beyond that, though, I personally have no clear preference among those proposals. I think they could all be done well. How wide the strip of AA mountains would be is also another question.

[Nemon]

Now that I look at the proposals, I do think having a strip of AA mountains as in the first proposal looks good, and perhaps more TRV mountains than shown. Beyond that, though, I personally have no clear preference among those proposals. I think they could all be done well. How wide the strip of AA mountains would be is also another question.

First proposal looks better than the others. It also lends a hand in emphasizing the original idea of plain like armun ashlands in the eastern part of armin. With a proposed mountain range, natural looking in the style of the ones to the west, this area would seem more closed off from the simpler, calmer thirr. Having a path up from TRV would also reward any explorer with a breathtaking view on the armun ashlands. It doesn't require the same height or snow, however.

[Yeti]

First Proposal

[arvisrend]

Proposals 1-3 look good to me, though tbh the images (even those I get if I follow the hyperlinks) are too small. Why are you making the Armun Ashlands more plainey? Do we have the statics to make that interesting?

The reason why I've been lobbying for a buffer region all along is that the TRV has no business directly bordering on the AA; this is not for technical reasons (as in AA critters raiding the TRV -- this can be avoided by impenetrable mountains) but for a more abstract continuity of the land (could the Shire be separated from Mordor by a mere mountain's crest?). I'm trusting that you can make a transition (whether with a buffer region or not) that is tasteful and not abrupt. (There is a very nice transition from Askkaedh Coast to Velothi Mountains near the road from Kartur to Verarchen, which mixes Ascadian-like grasslands with RM rocks.)

[Gnomey]

Imageshack has been erratic lately. For some reason it won't upload the images in a larger size than that. The main focus was the distribution of the regions, though, and not how the regions are filled, and I think the image size is adequate for that purpose. I'm all for having the Armun Ashlands be hilly or mountainous.

Edit: as far as continuing the Armun Ashland plains, I think it could make for an interesting atmosphere if done right. Like so many aspects of this thread, I'm more concerned about the execution of whatever we go with than what plan we go with. My main interest in the latter is in coming to a consensus. That being said, if we do continue the plains, they should probably rise up into the mountains.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Gnomey's image 5 really reminds me just how much explorable real estate is tied up in this area. It's practically as large again as the entire western bank of the Thirr.

Maybe a more interesting mountain range/other interesting geographic feature could be added, rather than just extending the borders of nearby regions a bit? TR's a bit lacking in memorable landmarks outside of cities, and there's so much room!

Perhaps the river tributaries near Indalruhn could be extended west a bit, cutting through the mountains/providing a more interesting blended TRV/AA landscape?

[Nemon]

It's true, quite a bit of cells are tied up in this strip of land. Granted, some of the west bank areas seem oddly narrow and could do with some widening. I don't think the shire bordering mordor is an issue here, vanilla has this and a properly made mountain range should suffice in creating a natural border. Although no roads exists, for player award purposes some sort of minor path should exist.

A mountain should have gradually ascending sides, yet shaped with a combination of steep land and cleverly placed statics provide closed off paths. As of now we don't really have a single mountain range with playable areas all around it so it would be something new.

[arvisrend]

My 2 not very informed cents:

It's true, quite a bit of cells are tied up in this strip of land. Granted, some of the west bank areas seem oddly narrow and could do with some widening.

What seems really odd about the TRV in that place to me is the lack of a road on the western side. Maybe that can also be dealt with if the TRV is widened.

I don't think the shire bordering mordor is an issue here, vanilla has this and a properly made mountain range should suffice in creating a natural border.

I must say I didn't like the AI bordering the the Molag Amur very much in vanilla, and either way this is more appropriate on Vvardenfell than on the Mainland (everything is crammed on Vvardenfell, and anyway Vvardenfell is kind of a Mordor in itself).

A mountain range with some width (and maybe the occasional chasm in the middle, if this is doable?) could solve this, of course.

Although no roads exists, for player award purposes some sort of minor path should exist.

Yes (maybe involve tunnels?).

[Nemon]

A chasm is possible with the cliff meshes, since they provide an effective, abrupt impassable border.

[Yeti]

(could the Shire be separated from Mordor by a mere mountain's crest?).

In Morrowind, yes, I think this is something that is completely reasonable given the hostile identity of the province.

[Sload]

Only thing I care about is removing the regionless WG. Expanding left-bank TRV makes sense to me because its pretty limited right now. I share arvisrend's concern about the AA-TRV border, but trust the awesome ext modders to figure it out. I really don't have strong feelings at all.

Just make up your minds and lock this thread.

[Nemon]

http://imgur.com/a/pMez2#1

This is how it could look. Quick sketch.

[sasquatch]

I REALLY like the above mountain, however seeing nearly every piece of usable farmland carved up still bothers me. I hadnt mentioned it before, but with all the chatter about redoing much of the area anyway I wanted to add my opinion on it. The real glaring problem to me is how the Thirr and surrounding farmland appear to have been turned into a swamp. The Thirr R is unconvincing. It looks more like a bay or a big lake.

Maybe this is the effect we are going for?

Maybe no one else is seeing this because of the time invested in this area, but from my outsider perspective I think at least some of the small streams need to be reduced.. narrowed, made more shallow or removed.

[Yeti]

The mountain looks nice enough to me, though perhaps a little too tall considering there are no other mountains in the area (at least as far as I know).

Concerning Sasquatch's comment about the TRV looking like a swamp; to me at least, it still looks very much like a wide river, with numerous tributaries carving out a valley of fertile bays and islands.

[Mwgek]

The mountain range could stretch further south in future claims?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

That looks completely awesome - as long as there's paths for the player to take into the mountains, and content for them to discover up there (rather than just having an impassable barrier of steep terrain), this would be great.

[arvisrend]

Tunnel paths could be very appropriate, by the way.

[sasquatch]

Maybe in some places, but I think this area provides a good opportunity for some really scenic paths that would be lost walking through here underground. I think maybe some combination would be nice. A cave that takes player halfway up to a switchback that leads to a path along the ridge could be very nice and offer great views.

Something like this:
http://www.pbase.com/briansolar1/image/119581142

[Nemon]

The mountain range could stretch further south in future claims?

Yeah, it's not difficult to continue the ridge further south. Scamp's Hlaalu outpost in 4-11 will have to be moved though. If required, it could be moved straight up and serve as a mountain spot of interest - it's also possible to hide it since a wider area is available to mountainify in this spot.

[Gnomey]

I might prefer the mountains more if they were slightly lower but thicker than in Nemon's sketch, more of a range than a ridge, but it works for me either way. I'd prefer if the paths kept mostly to the exterior, though. TR already has a lot of tunnel caves in Telvannis and Uld Vraech, and if they're used too often they become less interesting in my opinion.
As for the Hlaalu outpost, while I'd be fine with moving it, I don't think it needs to be moved. It might actually look more interesting if the mountains get sharper and more cliffy there, or they could even create a large overhang over the outpost.

@sasquatch: the Thirr is basically a braided river, like these:

[img]http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/40/4040/UL8LF00Z/posters/randy-olson-braided-river-ecosystem-for-salmon-spawning.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.dimensionsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Amazon-River.jpg[/img]
[url=http://naturespicwallpaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/amazonas-09.jpg]Or this.[/url]

Whether it looks natural is another question. I don't like how squarish it is, but otherwise think it looks fine. Keep in mind that the river continues into Map 6, so it's hard to get a proper overview of it, especially as you only see the west bank in this section.


The popular direction at the moment appears to be something like this:

Only expand RR downwards a little, if at all, perhaps as in my first proposal. Make most of the strip a high mountain range or ridge which the player can explore, perhaps via various paths. Is everyone fine with slightly expanding the TRV in places? Aside from widening the rather narrow region, it could also make the mountain range look less squarish. I'd suggest expanding it just south of the Daedric Ruin in the sinkhole as well as down around the Hlaalu outpost.

I might try and make a quick CS sketch of the region like Nemon's.

[sasquatch]

Wanted to drop another suggestion of how this mountainous space could be used. Some of the rock formations are very similar to those in the Yellowstone pictures I posted above and match what we are currently using on the west side of this mountain range.

http://www.birdingisfun.com/2013/05/three-forks-of-owyhee-river.html

[Yeti]

Some of those shots look like they could serve as inspiration for the rocky border. Thanks for sharing, Sasquatch.

[Swiftoak]

Alright, so I'm not a section lead here, but we have one, possibly now two new exterior devs without work, so I'm thinking now would be a good time to decide what we want to do with this. I don't have very much opinion, though I'm leaning for this, incorporating some of sasquatchs and/or Nemon's ideas for the rockiness and mountainness. I like the idea of mountains because they clearly delineate the regions both in terms o visuals, and difficulty. Make it very hard (next to impossible) to cross into the Armun from the TRV, except through designated passes (if we have any).

You all know my opinion regarding WG on the mainland, suggesting a dosage of fire here. If anyone has more ideas/suggestions feel free to add, but I would not drag this out much longer personally.

As for the (?) area, it's part of Othreleth. I'd probably leave it be for now (but please be rid of that hideous WG cliff wall). We can't really decide much on this until I get my heightmap of regions done.

[Gnomey]

I am working on my own example ESP which should hopefully be done soon. As I understand it, there is no real disagreement with having a tall mountain range with a mixture of AA and (probably mostly) TRV terrain and rocks. Ideally, the TRV would also be expanded slightly, and the excessive straight lines in the region would be blurred. The northern end of the mountain range could perhaps have some RR elements, but those should be limited.

I think the terrain around the Hlaalu outpost should be find-replaced to rocky TRV, and that it doesn't necessarily need to be moved.

Depending on whether expanding the mountain range that far down looks good or not, I think the (?) area could be changed to reflect the above, or could be left alone until we get to Othreleth.

Other than that, we might want a clear idea of what dungeons we want in the area. Leaving OM aside for now, I'd say another Daedric ruin on the AA side might not be amiss, and otherwise caves. I'd frankly rather avoid placing any Velothi towers, as I, for one, am not quite sure what role they have and consequently how we should place them. (In Vvardenfell they seem to be an overwhelmingly Telvanni thing, and yet we have them spread out across all of Morrowind). I personally think we have enough Dwemer ruins in the area already.

An Ashlander burial or two on the AA side could also work, as well as critter dens.

[Yeti]

The Telvanni didn't build the Velothi Towers on Vvardenfell; they moved into them because they were convenient bases to stage their expansion into the island's interior. The towers are supposedly structures built in ancient Velothi times, or something.

[Gnomey]

I'm not sure if there's much information on them other than that they are called 'wizard's towers' by the locals and that there are none in southwestern Vvardenfell. Either way it would probably be better to discuss Velothi towers in another thread, maybe a new one or maybe the Establishing Background Lore thread.

[Gnomey]

Here's a rough sketch of my suggestions. I'm afraid screenshots will have to wait a bit. The mountains could probably be higher and the landscape textures are approximate. I went into a bit more detail around the Hlaalu outpost and the northern end of the mountain range.

[Yeti]

Seeing as how work has already commenced on updating other aspects of the Thirr River Valley's exterior, can we come to a decision on what we want to do with the buffer zone? Whatever requires the least amount of work will probably receive my vote.