Adjusting Coastline East of Andothren (ANT North Merge)

Post by **Gnomey** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:35 pm

I'm ready to work on this right away, but first I want to make sure that there is a consensus on how the new coastline should look. As that would be a major change which also affects Andothren, I think shifting the coastline should quickly be gotten out of the way, unless, of course, no consensus can be reached.

Here is my rough plan. It's more or less a compromise between the two suggestions that came up in the Skype chat. (Does anyone have access to the map that was posted there?) If the image isn't clear enough, I can see if I can come up with a better map.

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/30/abrq.jpg[/img]

Edit: Here's a very rough broader view, to provide an idea as to how the coastline will end up looking:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/837/wsq8.jpg[/img]

I would try and preserve as much of the detailing as possible, shifting flora and such onto the islands. The only things I'd really be axing are some cliffs, large rocks and empty land, as well as lowering the general elevation of the affected areas.

My questions:

-is it fine if I add some Emperor Parasols along the coast to make the coastline conform better to the adjacent Ascadian Isles?
-should I leave the shack village alone, or can I also shift that about to conform to the new coastline? (I'm not talking about adding or removing anything, just shifting).
-I'm assuming I am to make no direct changes to Andothren, is that correct?
-I'm also assuming that I am to make no direct changes to the Dwemer Ruin. (It shouldn't be affected by the changes anyway). Is that correct?

Either way, once the coastline is dealt with, there remain the following tasks:

-fixing border seams
-general border matching and bug fixes (such as that empty stretch of green)

Anything else? Any concerns about the Velothi tower or anything?

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:43 pm

This seems like a good plan, Gnomey. My suggestion is to keep a bridge to the small town. The foliage should be more similar to general TRV in my opinion. Your plan also allows for a western harbour for Andothren, which I like.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:47 pm

Looks good enough for me, please do make it more like Ascadian Isles, since that's the whole idea. I've always been a little putoff how we have gentle coast on Vvardenfell and on the Mainland suddenly we have huge cliffs and bluffs of big AI rocks. That's fine for the Dwemer Ruin, but I encourage actually making moar of the coast like vanilla in these areas, especially around the islands/East of Andothren. I'll leave that up to you and the others though.

Post by **Gnomey** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:00 pm

Such quick replies!

I haven't taken a good look at the shack village's interiors, but so far it is one of only two Hlaalu settlements on the Thirr, the other being Indal-ruhn which connects to the Thirr south of Almas Thirr. Other than that, I'd say it's more a question of whether the interiors can/should be reused elsewhere or are sub-par.

If it is kept, I would indeed add a small bridge to re-connect it to the road system. What about the Velothi tower, though? Should I add a road to re-connect it to the road system, or should I leave it isolated? (Or, of course, axe it completely).

Post by **Swiftoak** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:15 pm

How about receeding the coast a little more, and turning some of it into islands? Get rid of the dark blue, and add more tiny rivers (light blue), to make the river open up more naturally, jsut so there's some geology happening. Islands forming out of sediment deposits carried up the Thirr.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/EYfxTKB.jpg[/img]

Post by **Gnomey** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:37 pm

For that change, part of the southern Andothren-Thirr merge would have to be cut off and merged into the northern Andothren-Thirr file. (Basically have the northern merge contain the whole {(x, y) cell of map 4 | x >= -5 AND y >= -23} block). I'd also have to alter the Dwemer Ruin. If that's fine, though, I'd be willing to make the changes. In either case I'd naturally try and ensure that the coastline looks natural.

On another note, whose opinion (Sload's?) or what decisions should I wait on before starting?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:48 pm

I think we all agreed that the coast should be reduced in that area during the skype meeting and that you should use your judgment Gnomey.

Post by **arvisrend** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:13 pm

One issue I see with your plan, Gnomey, is that it cuts off too much land. I'd have expected way more or bigger islands. From a gameplay perspective, replacing land by water == reducing the game, because we simply don't have that much to offer on the seafloor (shipwrecks are getting old after a while). I don't really see a point in removing shackville either, unless we're trying to make NPCers' life easier.

EDIT: Seeing that we are not losing ints, I'm actually fine with this. I thought too highly of that grassy knoll between shackville and the Velothi tower; at a second thought, it's fine getting replaced by shallow waters.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:47 pm

W/ arvisrend, Gnomey, & my vote, it seems like Gnomey has approval to go forward with his original proposal. This does not include any other changes suggested in this thread.

Have at it Gnomey!

Post by **Gnomey** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:57 am

The Ascadian Isles area appears to have greyish vertex shading around statics. Roth Roryn and the Thirr River Valley appear to have vertex shading consistent with [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23316]this thread[/url]. Should I stick to the greyish vertex shading or use the browner shade provided in the thread above?

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:50 am

arvisrend wrote:From a gameplay perspective, replacing land by water == reducing the game, because we simply don't have that much to offer on the seafloor (shipwrecks are getting old after a while). I don't really see a point in removing shackville either, unless we're trying to make NPCers' life easier.

I believe the point of adding more sea is to make the view of the mainland from Vvardenfell (when using MGE, of course) more visually impressive. When I'm gazing across the Inner Sea, I want it to feel like I'm looking across a sea, which means more open water.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:23 am

Gnomey wrote:The Ascadian Isles area appears to have greyish vertex shading around statics. Roth Roryn and the Thirr River Valley appear to have vertex shading consistent with [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23316]this thread[/url]. Should I stick to the greyish vertex shading or use the browner shade provided in the thread above?

Thirr River Valley should have vertex shading consistent with the linked one, the brown one is fugly.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:53 am

Some belated images of the file I last uploaded to the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24302]northern merge thread[/url]. Belated largely because for some reason MGE doesn't want to properly generate distant land files for the new landmass.

First an overview of the new coastline, even if it is just a composite image from the CS:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/12/w4r5.jpg[/img]

Here's a birdseye view of the delta:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/10/dwlx.jpg[/img]

Finally, here's a view of the widened inlet at Andothren. You can ignore the Hlaalu buildings; I just tossed them in to get an idea of how wide the docks now are.

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/46/64gz.png[/img]

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:47 pm

To be honest I'm not sure this is better than it was. The changes look unnatural. The islands are too small and oddly shaped. The river also is still artificial looking. From the western bridge it should stay relatively the same width until it gets close to its mouth.

The main landmass west of Androthren is also strangely shaped. The water cuts in too sharply.

I'd recommend that the shack island and the sliver below it be reconnected for a larger space. The floor between the micro island to the west of shack island should also be raised up so it looks like it is one landmass that has sunken in and created an area of tide pools.

While I don't assume these changes will be made I think it is important to weigh in on the coast change. Gnomey, hopefully you will not take offense and will try out these adjustments.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:01 pm

I do not agree with sasquatch's post.

I think that the coast just west of Andothren could use some detailing where it meets the water, though.

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:19 pm

What I'm recommending isn't something radical, but minor adjustment that would make the area look more natural. Islands do not form like that and the river defies logic as it is.
In the birdseye pic the water's edge should run from the rocky mass with the mushroom on it relatively straight to the northern corner and not have the little bay on the other side either. The three islands in the middle there look strange because they should only form like that if if the ground is relatively level, but there is a good amount of elevation.

Also, a river that big would cut right through shack island or turn off to one side at the same width, but instead it disperses into a pool and a bunch of tiny outlets. What I'm suggesting isn't just aesthetic. Neither the islands or the new shoreline do look right as they are.

In the bird's eye pic the river should continue its route to the top left at the same width. The pool north of it should be elevated slightly around it should be shallower where there is sediment. Currently it looks like the river is spliting into five directions, one even following a line that is nearly opposite its original direction.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:35 pm

1. Do you realize that these images aren't of the whole river mouth but only the western portion of it?

2. I cannot follow the changes you are proposing because they use nebulous textual descriptions as points of reference.

3. The propositions you make about how river topography functions do not seem at all sound.

4. The river mouth looks like.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:44 pm

No worries about causing offense. The changes are very much a WIP, and I'm all for input from other developers to ensure they are done right the first time around.

That being said, I'm afraid I can't follow your suggestions. Maybe try cobbling together a rough image? "Rocky mass with the mushroom" doesn't sound very specific to me considering the region, for instance.

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:09 pm

I don't have PS atm so i mocked up what I was proposing in paint.

http://imgur.com/AVrXJLn

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:30 pm

Um yeah, that tiny river is not THE Thirr.

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:45 pm

Which one? the image i posted is n smaller than what u have I meant shallow water to be shallow relative to the ocean floor.

https://www.google.com/search?q=river+m ... 36&bih=858

The above google images (search river mouth) are not small either. As Gnomey said, the area is still a work in progress and I am only trying to submit my opinion on what would make it look more realistic. It is only meant to be an example of how an actual river should flow. I don't expect it to look exactly like that. I only hope that Gnomey will take my suggestion seriously (more than others have) and maybe use it a reference for what he wants to do.

I maintain my position that the river and outlying islands are not realistic as they are. Fortunately this is still a work in progress so there is still time to make adjustments. Hopefully we can all be more open to input of all team members' suggestions and helpful critique in the future.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:23 pm

Sasquatch, the problem is that you don't have a full context.

This is a part of a river delta for a much larger river, the Thirr. If you look at the maps in Gnomey's first post, you can see what river we're talking about. The river you think this is the mouth of is a small tributary of a much larger river and it is not intended that this look like a realistic mouth for that river, because it is not that.

You are welcome to participate in all discussions, of course, but try to be perceptive of the fact that you do not have full knowledge of the topics under discussion.

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:01 am

Well then I really am confused since this tributary will be flowing away from the inland sea. Draining the sea into the Thirr?

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110329130846/morrowind/images/a/ac/Morrowind_topography_map.jpg

This map shows the Thirr River, and all its tributaries, flowing to its logical conclusion at the Inner Sea. I had assumed that the subject of this post was the abbreviated river that runs through "Balfalls." Even if this is a tributary to the Thirr it doesn't seem natural that it would flow south so it should meet the Thirr R. and Inner sea at this same location even if it is connected to some other minor streams.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:10 am

Yeah, due to the way the sections are divided it's hard to get a good overview of the Thirr river, and consequently to plan how to make its delta look natural. Here's a quick image that shows what I have changed in a larger context:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/35/31s2.jpg[/img]

The delta does currently look somewhat detached from the Thirr, even from afar, so I can see how you'd mistake the tributary as the river being discussed here. It's really just a little creek, though.

sasquatch · Post by **sasquatch** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:12 am

Thanks. How do I get images to appear in post like that?

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:17 am

Just add image tags on either end of the URL: [img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/35/31s2.jpg[/img].
For a hyperlinked image, such as a thumbnail, add URL tags as follows: [URL=https://imageshack.com/i/0z31s2j][img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/35/31s2.jpg[/img][/URL], where the first URL is the full-sized image and the second is the thumbnail.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:11 am

The wip shots look fine to me. The lack of symmetry with the other side of the delta throws me off a bit, but I don't think it's a major issue.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:37 am

I was wondering whether I should suggest that an island or two be added on the Old Ebonheart side to slightly balance the delta, but I figured I'd wait until our side is done first.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:37 pm

I could go either way, to be honest. That side of the river mouth does look a tad awkward as is, but I'm also an advocate for having extra sea in between the mainland and Vvardenfell, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about adding more islands.