Renaming Hlaalu plantations to sound Hlaaluer (ANT South AT)

[Hells]

SLOAD EDIT: The outcome of this thread was that the Rethil plantation is now named Oran & the Mundrethi plantation has not had its named changed.

I don't know if it's the right place to ask, but is the name Rethil final? I don't know, it just doesn't sound very Hlaalu at all. When we take a closer look at names of key Hlaalu characters from vanilla - Dren, Ules, Omani, Bero, Helvi, Rethan, Llethan - we see no "-ils" :P In fact, the only Hlaalu guys from vanilla with surnames ending with "-il" [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:House_Hlaalu]are some random NPCs from Odirniran.[/url]

I don't really think that's a problem (just nitpicking, I don't mean to be rude :P), but the point is - it's easy to associate name ending with "-il" with Great House Indoril now, as some of its high ranked members have names such as Tomaril, Nethril and so on. Also, since we have Nethril plantation, which is also pretty big and belong to a House (although different) councilor, I believe it could create unnecessary confusion.

[Yeti]

I am also not very big on the name Rethil, for largely the same reasons you outlined, Hells. Perhaps Rethis could be a possible substitute?

[Hells]

I am also not very big on the name Rethil, for largely the same reasons you outlined, Hells. Perhaps Rethis could be a possible substitute?

Atran Rethil->Athyn Rethis, maybe? Or something more similiar to vanilla (Hlaalu often have short names - vide Ules, Omani, Oran, Bero) - Athyn Rethi (but perhaps too similar to [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Edryno_Arethi]Arethi[/url]), Athyn Hlavi, Hlaari (swap names with his advisor)?

[immortal_pigs]

I'd also like to second that "Rethil" is not an optimal name for a Hlaalu plantation. For one it looks to much like "Nethril" which is an Indoril plantation. Also the other people who posted are right about Hlaalu tending to have rather short last names. Personally I rather like the ring of "Oran", which was mentioned by Hells.

Do other people agree Oran would be a good name for the Rethil plantation?

[rot]

Do other people agree Oran would be a good name for the Rethil plantation?

In this particular case the question is no longer whether it sounds good, but rather should the lord of Suran ('s family) be the owner of this plantation

[Hells]

Do other people agree Oran would be a good name for the Rethil plantation?

In this particular case the question is no longer whether it sounds good, but rather should the lord of Suran ('s family) be the owner of this plantation

This.

How about:
Averi
Aven
Avel
Alen
Adal
Ulms
Savel
Salen
Omes
Orethi
Ulen
Uvas
Adas
...
?

By the way, while its beautifully done, Rethil Manor interior is imo overcluttered. It's easy to get stuck, especially with NPCs around (too many TR_cont_De_vases!).

[arvisrend]

What about Ardem, Ardam, Serni, Meran for a change? (I'm tired of seeing the same surnames all over the place -- they aren't that euphonius and eventually will lead to confusion.)

[immortal_pigs]

Well the Oran's are a pretty lucky family. Having a Councilor in Suran, AND a big ass plantation along the River Thirr. Serjo Avon Oran, of course, is the son. While Tharer Oran is an old racist slaveholding ass who runs the Oran Plantation.

Proposal:
Rename Rethil Plantation to Oran Plantation
Rename Mundrethi Plantation to Ulen Plantation

(I'm going to use these names as a placeholder in the Andothren Master Plan document)

[Yeti]

I don't really see what the problem is with the name Mundrethi. I kind of like it. I'm fine with reusing Oran for the Rethil plantation, though.

[Rats]

I don't really see what the problem is with the name Mundrethi. I kind of like it.

+1. Though I came up with Mundrethi so I'm biased. Otherwise, I really like the Andothren-Thirr Team's plans for the plantation area. Keep up the good work!

[immortal_pigs]

Mundrethi is yet another overuse of "th". The "i" seems more Indorilesque. It is not Hlaaluesque at all (too long). It combines to many name staples at the same time: "nd", "th", ending with an "i".

Also there is an argument for changing the name in the Andothren Master Plan Document.

[Rats]

The following is written with all due respect; I wouldn't do this if I honestly didn't think Mundrethi was a good name:

The "i" seems more Indorilesque.

There are high-ranking Hlaalu members in the vanilla with their names ending with i 's (Omani, Llethri, Helvi, Orethi, Arethi, Serethi, Nerethi, Farethi, Sedrethi; all of them House Cousins or higher).

It combines to many name staples at the same time: "nd", "th", ending with an "i".

See the above list of names. Also, Andothren.


//edit: but this ain't my department, so i'll stop bothering you

[arvisrend]

I really like the Mundrethi name.

Oran is way too short to be memorable IMHO -- it is commonly a suffix, not really a name in itself. (Plus there is a House-less Oran you've got to kill for the Morag Tong in vanilla.) And it sounds like Oren, which is another way too common surname.

[Melchior Dahrk]

I agree that Mundrethi fits. Though I don't have a very good overview to compare how often different word-forms have been used in TR thus far. -rethi is pretty common though, as Rats pointed out, making the name just seem a little generic is all.

I'd personally think that something like Mundrelo or Mundrano would sound more unique yet fitting. Kind of has a mob boss sound to it which makes me think of HH.

Either way, I don't think Ulen would be a fitting name for the plantation.

[immortal_pigs]

There are high-ranking Hlaalu members in the vanilla with their names ending with i 's (Omani, Llethri, Helvi, Orethi, Arethi, Serethi, Nerethi, Farethi, Sedrethi; all of them House Cousins or higher).

Basically this is proof that the -i suffix already has more than enough representation in House Hlaalu. Also most of these, save for maybe Velanda Omani and Odral Helvi are not really iconic Hlaalu characters. And still, you can't deny that the "i" has an association with House Indoril, which is not necessary for a Hlaalu plantation.

See the above list of names. Also, Andothren.

"Th" names happen to sound good - but that doesn't mean they need to be overused. From what I see Andothren fits into the trend set by Llothanis and Othrensis, all settlements with bad names that got a "th" name which sounded better. (Soluthis as replacement for Reich Parkeep fits this trend as well). This is a fine trend for setllements; but not a prerequisite for a plantation.

Oran is way too short to be memorable IMHO -- it is commonly a suffix, not really a name in itself. (Plus there is a House-less Oran you've got to kill for the Morag Tong in vanilla.) And it sounds like Oren, which is another way too common surname.

This argument makes no sense at all. Serjo Avon Oran is an existing character in Vanilla Morrowind. Oran is not at all too short, it is memorable. It fits other short Hlaalu names like "Dren" and "Bero". Of course it sounds like Oren, it also sounds like Oron and Orin, that is not an argument in and of itself.

I agree that Mundrethi fits. Though I don't have a very good overview to compare how often different word-forms have been used in TR thus far. -rethi is pretty common though, as Rats pointed out, making the name just seem a little generic is all.

I'd personally think that something like Mundrelo or Mundrano would sound more unique yet fitting. Kind of has a mob boss sound to it which makes me think of HH.

-Rethi is pretty common, thus too common. Let's take a look at the established Vanilla Hlaalu plantations: Dren, Arano & Arvel. Nice short names. Mundrelo or Mundrano are even less Hlaaluesque names.

Either way, I don't think Ulen would be a fitting name for the plantation.

That's fine, though I like Ulen for the following reason(s). I just don't want a name starting with an "A" as those are already over represented by the Hlaalu (Arvel; Arano). And I would like a short name as that fits the plantation owner trend (and no this is NOT a trend that needs to be broken). Ulen seemed nice and nasty, short and to the point, and "U" names are rather rare, while still being Hlaaluesque.

[Melchior Dahrk]

That's fine, though I like Ulen for the following reason(s). I just don't want a name starting with an "A" as those are already over represented by the Hlaalu (Arvel; Arano). And I would like a short name as that fits the plantation owner trend (and no this is NOT a trend that needs to be broken). Ulen seemed nice and nasty, short and to the point, and "U" names are rather rare, while still being Hlaaluesque.

So you only want to break one trend at a time.

Ulen is just far too similar to Ules, imho. I fail to see why plantation names must be short when they're simply named after the family which owns them. Does this mean that the Telandas, Andrano, Sarothren, Dorvayn, and Othreleth families are banned from owning plantations?

Now if we were saying that the names of Daedric Ruins must be long because they're made up of ancient incantatory phrases, then fine. But we're not using that sort of logic here.

[arvisrend]

Basically this is proof that the -i suffix already has more than enough representation in House Hlaalu. Also most of these, save for maybe Velanda Omani and Odral Helvi are not really iconic Hlaalu characters. And still, you can't deny that the "i" has an association with House Indoril, which is not necessary for a Hlaalu plantation.

This suggests the question whether the phonetics of surnames should have any correlation with House membership at all -- that would make sense if the House bloodlines go back to a time when people spoke different dialects in different houses, but is this actually lore? (Or, rather, would it be good lore?) If not, then there is no reason why houses should have anything to do with ending vowels of their names.

"Th" names happen to sound good - but that doesn't mean they need to be overused. From what I see Andothren fits into the trend set by Llothanis and Othrensis, all settlements with bad names that got a "th" name which sounded better. (Soluthis as replacement for Reich Parkeep fits this trend as well).

I actually think of Llothanis as being one of the better names.

This argument makes no sense at all. Serjo Avon Oran is an existing character in Vanilla Morrowind. Oran is not at all too short, it is memorable. It fits other short Hlaalu names like "Dren" and "Bero". Of course it sounds like Oren, it also sounds like Oron and Orin, that is not an argument in and of itself.

"Memorable" is in direct conflict with being one letter away from another frequent name. Dren and Bero are memorable because they are important figures, not because of their short names. So what about the existing character? That's a point if you actually plan on tying him in storywise (or at least dialoguewise). The other Oren, from the Camonna Tong, is an existing character as well, and houseless -- another possibility for tying in, but only good if we do it.

That's fine, though I like Ulen for the following reason(s). I just don't want a name starting with an "A" as those are already over represented by the Hlaalu (Arvel; Arano). And I would like a short name as that fits the plantation owner trend (and no this is NOT a trend that needs to be broken). Ulen seemed nice and nasty, short and to the point, and "U" names are rather rare, while still being Hlaaluesque.

The only Ulen in vanilla is a Dagoth, so I'm not sure how much it can be called a Hlaalu name...

On another and infinitely more relevant note, I agree with Hells that the empty vases placed all over the Rethil plantation with the repetituous regularity of street lamps don't contribute anything to the feel of the int. And speaking of lamps, there are lots of lights hanging over stairways low enough that the player tends to bump his head against them, making the int harder to walk than it should be.

[Sload]

Can we just put all the names into a hat and pick one?

[immortal_pigs]

So you only want to break one trend at a time. Ulen is just far too similar to Ules, imho. I fail to see why plantation names must be short when they're simply named after the family which owns them. Does this mean that the Telandas, Andrano, Sarothren, Dorvayn, and Othreleth families are banned from owning plantations?

That's true, it is similar. It is also similar to Ulef, Uleq, Ulebbadesh and Orange. It's better to have a consistent theme for the Hlaalu to help distinguish them from other factions. We're talking about two Hlaalu plantations, right? Not about all plantations as a whole? If you read back in the thread I believe I mentioned Mundrethi seems fine as an Indoril plantation. I'm not argueing for all plantations across Morrowind to have short names, I'm argueing for having a certain feel to Hlaalu plantations, and the name is a big part of that.

This suggests the question whether the phonetics of surnames should have any correlation with House membership at all -- that would make sense if the House bloodlines go back to a time when people spoke different dialects in different houses, but is this actually lore? (Or, rather, would it be good lore?) If not, then there is no reason why houses should have anything to do with ending vowels of their names.

Having a few surnames directly associated with specific Great Houses seems like a good idea, no? I mean you don't want a Redoran Bero, a Telvanni Bero, a Dres Bero and an Indoril Bero as well; that would just be confusing. Also if you're going to bring up "lore", Oran is more "lorey" (Serjo Avon Oran) than Mundrethi which is a made up name.

"Memorable" is in direct conflict with being one letter away from another frequent name. Dren and Bero are memorable because they are important figures, not because of their short names. So what about the existing character? That's a point if you actually plan on tying him in storywise (or at least dialoguewise). The other Oren, from the Camonna Tong, is an existing character as well, and houseless -- another possibility for tying in, but only good if we do it.

How did they become important figures? They were made important. The same can be done for Oran through dialog and quests. The thing is, I feel the Hlaalu really do have a nice vibe to their names, there seems to be a consistent feel to them, and I feel Mundrethi would really break that mold. The fact "Oren" is apparently frequent is kind of irrelevant. Frequency =/= memorability.

The only Ulen in vanilla is a Dagoth, so I'm not sure how much it can be called a Hlaalu name...

Ulen seemed the best pick in the list Hells posted. Anyway maybe the Dagoth is an irrelevant nephew not at all representative of the Ulen family as a whole?

//

Also Hells back me up here, otherwise it seems like I'm being petty, and that would be bad for my rep. (This was a joke)(Using rational arguments to defend what is basically personal taste is pointless)(But Mundrethi is still a bad name)

[rot]

How is there a whole page on naming a plantation?
To put an end to this madness I dare you all to name a dude 'Hello'.

[Sload]

Okay I actually read all the arguments & shit and I think the important thing is that Ulen & Oran are very similar names and if they're the two plantations on the map right next to each other we could have players going to the wrong plantation. Mudrethi & Rethil are also fairly similar.

So new fight: pick one from each list. Mudrethi/Rethil & Ulen/Oran. Go.

[Gnomey]

To put an end to this madness I dare you all to name a dude 'Hello'.

I like the idea, but 'Hello' doesn't sound quite Dunmeri enough. Maybe adjust the name a little; something like Hello->Hallo->Hlaalo->Hlaalu?

So new fight: pick one from each list. Mudrethi/Rethil & Ulen/Oran. Go.

Of those choices, I'd say Mudrethi (not Mundrethi? Not a big difference) and Oran. It's really not too important, though.
It isn't necessarily bad if Mudrethi sounds Indoril. Maybe House Mudrethi was a minor House in Indoril lands that joined House Hlaalu. Or maybe the plantation owner Mudrethi is the black sheep of his family. Or maybe he is actually still Indoril, but is being coerced either through economic means or blackmail or extortion to do exclusive business with House Hlaalu, the Camonna Tong or both.
As for Oran, taking a glance at the four Orans in Morrowind, the family has a lot of potential for a good back-story: two belong to House Hlaalu, another is being targeted by the Morag Tong and the last is an aggressive agent who is part of what is likely a smuggling operation in the Inner Sea. To me, that sounds like a family that is almost tailored to our themes for Andothren.

[immortal_pigs]

Of those choices, I'd say Mudrethi (not Mundrethi? Not a big difference) and Oran. It's really not too important, though. It isn't necessarily bad if Mudrethi sounds Indoril. Maybe House Mudrethi was a minor House in Indoril lands that joined House Hlaalu. Or maybe the plantation owner Mudrethi is the black sheep of his family. Or maybe he is actually still Indoril, but is being coerced either through economic means or blackmail or extortion to do exclusive business with House Hlaalu, the Camonna Tong or both. As for Oran, taking a glance at the four Orans in Morrowind, the family has a lot of potential for a good back-story: two belong to House Hlaalu, another is being targeted by the Morag Tong and the last is an aggressive agent who is part of what is likely a smuggling operation in the Inner Sea. To me, that sounds like a family that is almost tailored to our themes for Andothren.

The thing is we don't actually have enough Hlaalu plantations along the river Thirr to have a "hey this guy breaks the mold so he's interesting" trope. If we had like 4 or 5 plantations then having an outlier would be fine. But as far as I can see we have only two plantations, therefore we need to think about what they will reflect about the Hlaalu and not have them be too unorthodox, cause otherwhise we're not even going to have enough orthodoxy to make room for unorthodoxy.

I like where your going with Oran in any case, and Oran has my preference over Ulen.

Choosing between Refill and Bad Name is a more difficult choice though. They're both Indorilesque imo. Rethil looks a lot like Nethril which is already an Indoril plantation.

idk what about "Helvi"? Odral Helvi was an important Hlaalu questgiver in Caldera. "Hlarys" sounds ok as well.

[Gnomey]

The question is: do we want Andothren-Thirr to be orthodox? The Hlaalu heartland is in Othreleth, not the Thirr River Valley. Andothren-Thirr is a good place to take an unorthodox approach.
I was going to forward the idea of naming one of the local ancestral tombs the Oran Ancestral Tomb if we want to run with that name, but then I realized that, if the Orans are a Hlaalu family, their ancestral tomb would probably be in Othreleth if anywhere. (Well, maybe not. Apparently the Hlaalu Ancestral Tomb is in Azura's Coast). Local ancestral tombs should probably have Indoril names, for the most part.

[immortal_pigs]

Or maybe he's just a Hlaalu who represents House Hlaalu by displaying House Hlaalu tropes. Can't we just make two Hlaalu plantation owners memorable by being exactly that: Hlaalu plantation owners. They don't have to be exiled Redoran married into Telvanni turned into Dres slaves sold to House Indoril who ran away and became free Hlaalu before they started their own plantation to be interesting. Breaking clichés is done often enough already that it threatens to become a cliché of itself.

I actually like the idea of giving the local ancestral tombs Indoril names, as a reference to the fact that the lands used to be Indoril. (Which is something we're going for, right?) Perhaps we can call it the "Mundrethi Ancestral Tomb" and put the name where it belongs, in a coffin!

[Melchior Dahrk]

Perhaps we can call it the "Mundrethi Ancestral Tomb" and put the name where it belongs, in a coffin!

[url=http://i.imgur.com/07oQuCy.jpg]Heheh.[/url]

For what it's worth, that sounds like a good idea to me. While I feel that what we see in game doesn't always support the idea of the Houses having patterns to their family names, if the Hlaalu were to have a stereotypical convention, it would be short names with relatively balanced vowel and consonant counts. Think about Demnevanni. No way in the 16 hells are you going to catch a Hlaalu with that name.

[Hells]

Interconnecting families from vanilla and mainland sounds like a good idea (but it should not be overdone), especially because last time I checked, there's little about Avon Oran's backstory (well, almost nothing besides he's not that bad leader). Maybe his father, Tharer Oran (I like the intimidating sound of that name), wealthiest planation owner on the Thirr, send him there to secure his business after Temple opened Vvardenfell to colonization? Since I believe there are no longer restrictions about expanding/modifying vanilla content, maybe we could play with this idea and make young Avon his connection to Orvas Dren?

Mudrethi seems fine, as long as he's just an ordinary plantation owner - after all, many common Dunmer names ends with a "-thi" regardless of their House affiliation. Hlaalu councillors and VIPs should imo continue vanilla trend.

By the way, I've been reading TR forums since like 2006 and noticed that every thread about names tends to become a shitstorm at some point. What's with that? :P

So guys, how about changing Bosmora (oh no another -mora) to Bosaris? :P

[Yeti]

My vote: Mundrethi/Oran

Seriously people, we've spent enough time arguing about these two names.

By the way, I've been reading TR forums since like 2006 and noticed that every thread about names tends to become a shitstorm at some point. What's with that?

Sometimes I honestly think we would all argue about the placement of items on a table in an interior cell if it was open to discussion.

[Sload]

I agree that people (and I'mma say immpigs in particular) have written wayyy too many words about names in this thread.

I also like Mundrethi & Oran. Mundrethi & Oran it is, I think.

Now people are starting to talk about things other than what these plantations are called & this thread is about their names. But can we actually talk about what these plantations are like? We don't have a clear map of all the plantations & farms - in fact we have another thread that's changing up what plantations & farms are there. Can we maybe get the data on what is now, decide in the other thread what to change, & then talk about their characterization?

EDIT: I'm going to lock this thread because I think the naming issue is resolved. I will edit the first post to clearly state the outcome of the thread.