Idioms & slang

[rot]

Thread! to discuss and regroup idioms, slang... Not going to expand on how this contributes to worldbuilding but should not be overdone, etc., you get the point. I'm not saying start and churn out neologisms and expressions for the heck of it (though if you have cool ideas...), but rather if you're working on something, be it lit, NPCing, quest dialogue, and come up with expressions which can benefit to and from being used by others, do share them - language quirks are most (/only) effective when their use becomes coherent by permeating through the whole mod.
This is **NOT about Dunmeri linguistics** or etymology or Aldmeri or any of that crap, though a lot of it might be in dunmeri. Most memorable examples we have are insults:

n'wah
s'wit
fetcher

Expletives ("by the Three")... Also handles/addresses:

f'lah
sera
serjo

I think of all dunmeri words, these especially would qualify -

foyada
sadrith

But again, this isn't about 'language' in that sense and these don't have to be in dunmeri. Think how the dudes who ??? :P dreughs are called dreugh-jiggers. Or how we're going to call a group of dreugh a choir of dreugh (right? gro?) if there's any occasion. Think Cornerclubs, Council clubs or Tradehouses.

Some Sheog cultists were calling Ordinators gold hats - I think the Thieves Guild in particular could really use extensive slang in that style (and even, would exceptionally warrant deliberate work to build one).


Here are some new ideas to illustrate what I'm talking about; Hlaalu commonry could call nobles knobs. (shush I know that's not how it's pronounced) One could say, instead of beelining, skyrending. Stuff you wouldn't go out of your way to use, but if you use it, post it here.



edit: another example from vanilla, soul sickness. Also TR calls river strider dudes therionauts, sounds familiar...

[Tondollari]

Telvanni saying(?):

"After three years of failure, even an Orc can cast spells."

I just think this one sounds cool:

"When you use guar shit as medicine, there isn't any."

Both adapted from Korean expressions.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Let's not forget about The Book of Dawn and Dusk. These aphorisms should be a favorite among the pious Dunmer. I imagine they could be inserted into dialogue here and there:

• Speak none but good of the Gods.
  We can have no opinions about Truth.
  Rumors flow from the House of Troubles.
  Count only the happy hours.
  No child has a sinner's heart.
  Let faith be your only law.
  Fear of the fool is the beginning of wisdom.
  Almsivi in every hour.
  Walk always in the presence of your Lords.
  Comfort is given, justice is taken.
  Learn by serving.
  From the heart, the light; from the head, the law.
  Blessed Almsivi, Mercy, Mastery, Mystery.
  Forge a keen Faith in the crucible of suffering.
  Engrave upon thy eye the image of injustice.
  Death does not diminish; the ghost gilds with glory.
  Faith conquers all. Let us yield to Faith.
  Better to suffer a wrong than to do one.
  The heavens are in their glory, applaud!
  Folly secures its power to harm.
  Though forbidden to some, not to you.
  Oh, how rarely wisdom rules our hearts!
  Blessed are we who serve Almsivi.
  Three mouths sing Mercy, Mastery, Mystery.
  Gather no seed in the fields of Hell.
  The Thrice-Sealed House withstands the Storm.
  By Breath and Blood protect us all!
  Can ghosts or justice change with time?
  Consider your end, mortal!
  Accept grace without limits.
  Enter the rhapsody of the God-Poet.
  Kneel before the Teacher's chair.
  Three Hands, three Hearts, three Eyes.
  Keep no secret from your Judge's scale.
  Forge Darkness into Light.
  Refuse neither brother nor ghost.
  Blessed Almsivi, through birth, life, ghost.
  From glowing ashes the Poet's wrath shall shine.
  If Vivec is for us, who can stand against us?
  Fate, monstrous and empty, the whirling wheel of evil.
  How black my heart, roasting fiercely?

A couple of these are already used in the voiced dialogue which came with Tribunal "Rumor flows from the House of Troubles, Acolyte" and "Forbidden to some, but not to you, Patriarch". And some are obvious ripoffs from real world proverbs and sayings, but whatever. Oh, and a lot of the Dunmer voiced greetings from Tribunal have interesting, pious things like this. I can transcribe them if you like.

I don't see a spoiler tag to shrink this list up? I know I've seen some others as I've read through the Morrowind dialogue, but you've captured some of the good ones. I'll see what else I can find.

Here are some interesting notes from dialogue which I've taken:

Information: This is interesting, on armor style names: "Let me tell you about the armor styles most common in Morrowind. The heavy armor styles, called 'Legion' or 'knight' style in the West and 'ebony' style in the East, require great strength and endurance. The light armor styles, called 'militia' in the West and 'Ashlander' in the East, favors speed and agility. The medium armor styles, called 'Imperial guard' in the West and 'Great House' in the East, are compromises between the heavy and light styles, balancing protection against mobility."

Information: The yurts of Gulakhans are called gulakyurts, so would the yurts of Ashkhans be ashkyurts?: "Manirai says that now, with Ulath-Pal and his supporters out of the way, it is a simple matter to be named Nerevarine of the Erabenimsun. All I need to do is persuade Gulakhan Han-Ammu to become the ashkhan of the Erabenimsun. I'll find him in his gulakyurt. She warned me, however, that he may be difficult to persuade."

Information: Thieves may use this sort of terminology: "Like the shadow of a snake, my hand darted inside the purse of Sigvatr the Strong and withdrew his ancestral gem, Pinetear. If I return the gem to Kolfinna the widow, it will serve as payment of wergild for the murder of her husband." - also, you can see the Nords borrowing the wergild term here.

Information: The sulfur pits in the game which steam are called steampits: "I have been given a Writ for the honorable execution of Sarayn Sadus. He may be found in Zaintirari. I should first head to the Erabenimsun Camp and then go northwest until I reach a steampit. Zaintirari is north of the steampit, but hidden from view."[/list]

[gro-Dhal]

In the Horror of Castle Xyr, Hordalf Xyr's full honorific title is Sedura Kena Telvanni Hordalf Xyr. No idea what all of that means though.

[Yeti]

Good idea for a thread.

Betmeri - A overarching label for Tamriel's aboriginal Beast race inhabitants. Includes Khajiit, Argonians, Orcs, Goblins, Imga and Giants.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Good idea for a thread.

Betmeri - A overarching label for Tamriel's aboriginal Beast race inhabitants. Includes Khajiit, Argonians, Orcs, Goblins, Imga and Giants.

With that said, nemer seems to refer to any races which are not merish. Excluding betmer. So, basically, a nemer seems to refer to Men.

[Melchior Dahrk]

These are some of the Dunmer words which I can see being used independently in dialogue.

cardruhn - ancestral tomb
foyada - fire river
isra - row (geographical)
molag - fire
mora - forest
ouada - river
sadrith - mushroom
tel - tower (especially a wizard tower)
tong - guild

And don't forget that Muthsera is another term of respect, though the distinction between Muthsera, Sera, and Serjo is not clear (no Muthsera does not refer to a woman).

And nchow is a Dunmer curse word similar to "damn" which I would like to see used more often.

I'll go see what more I can dig up.

edited: to focus more on dialogue relevant content

[rot]

Thanks for getting that out of the way then,






Forgot hetman (not hetmer, but let's just not dwell on it too much)

"Three blessings" or "Seven virtues" used as greetings... and yeah in that vein I guess dawn&dusk isn't all bad,

Hoom people will be called hoomars?

[immortal_pigs]

Cool topic rot.

I especially like where this could go with the Thieves Guild. Giving them a lot more slang along the lines of "gold hats" could be cool.

edit: so would they call guards Mold Hats? (as in: bonemold)

@ Melchior: I've never seen "nchow" before? Where did you find that?

[Melchior Dahrk]

@ Melchior: I've never seen "nchow" before? Where did you find that?

It's used in [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Four_Suitors_of_Benitah]The Four Suitors of Benita[/url] and [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Smuggler%27s_Island]Smuggler's Island[/url]. No dialogue uses though. But I think we're sorely lacking in Dunmer expletives and it's all we've got.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Another one to point out:

Netchiman/men

edit: Kagrenac was called a Dwemer Craftlord (at least by the Dunmer) among other titles.

edit2: A group of mucksponge, especially one which is farmed, is called a mucksponge patch.

edit3: bones and possibly ashes of the Dwemer are considered totems of bad luck by the Dunmer. They could have some phrases about this such as: "To pick up a blasphemous bone is to pick up affliction."

edit4: Dunmer exclamation (though it could easily be used by other cultures): "Gods' grief!"

edit5: There are a TON of interesting Dunmer (Indoril leaning) sayings and greetings in Tribunal, like "Life is a burden. Bear it with honor." and "Honor is food and drink for the soul." and "Seven virtues, sera." But I don't know if you want them cluttering this thread, rot.

edit6: Immortal_Pigs, you liked the thieves guild stuff, here's another: "Luck and loot for us all, Toad."

edit7: Pious Imperial greeting: "Nine good days to you, sera."
Patriotic Imperial greetings: "All hail under the Drake, citizen." "Drake and Dragon, citizen."

edit8: Argonians call each other with marshsister and marshbrother.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Based on reviewing their various uses, I propose these to be the proper uses of the various Dunmer honorifics:

Sera - a simple term of respect, equivalent to sir. - oh, except that it's asexual.
Serjo - a term of high respect
Muthsera - when used in speech, this is a term of respect most often used by slaves or low-born Dunmer (Velothi use it frequently) to abase themselves and show humility; but it is also used in legal documents to show respectful humility of the signer - it has been known to be used in a self-deprecating manner by scorned or snide Dunmer.

I should also mention here that, in Dunmer culture, those called the Velothi are Ashlanders who abandoned their nomadic life to live in Great House settlements. You can see a large contingency of them in Gnisis.

[immortal_pigs]

I always thought "Velothi" was a catch all term for non-House Dunmer? But if it isn't it would be nice to have a term that refers to non-House Dunmer.

[Rats]

B'vek! - an exclamation of surprise, most likely short for "By Vehk/Vivec"
found in the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Horror_of_Castle_Xyr]Horror of Castle Xyr[/url]

[Melchior Dahrk]

I always thought "Velothi" was a catch all term for non-House Dunmer? But if it isn't it would be nice to have a term that refers to non-House Dunmer.

The Ashlanders sometimes call themselves "Velothi" or the People of Veloth. The House Dunmer call Ashlanders who live among them (and make up a lower class) Velothi.

[Gnomey]

The term Velothi is discussed in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24220]House Hlaalu Brainstorming[/url] thread. I think it is only used to refer to the modern demographic once in Morrowind, and as such the particulars of the term have never been fully explored. (Are Velothi descended from Ashlanders, or were they themselves Ashlanders, for example). Edit: I would probably try to avoid using the term too much, though. It's pretty generic and can easily lead to confusion.

I always thought Muthsera was simply an even more respectful alternative to Serjo, perhaps something along the line of 'great/respected sera', but your proposal works for me. The terms could roughly be translated to:

Sera - sir
Serjo - milord/lord
Muthsera - master (in the more general sense, not strictly master-slave)

As far as 'gold hats' is concerned, there's one document in TESO which extends that terminology to the great houses, making Redoran 'red hats', Hlaalu 'yellow hats', etc. Whether we want to do the same is another question.

[Melchior Dahrk]

The term Velothi is discussed in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24220]House Hlaalu Brainstorming[/url] thread. I think it is only used to refer to the modern demographic once in Morrowind, and as such the particulars of the term have never been fully explored. (Are Velothi descended from Ashlanders, or were they themselves Ashlanders, for example).

What I said about the Velothi is fact and so the particulars aren't as debatable as you imply. And it's definitely used more than once. And implied in places where the actual word isn't used (look at all the Ashlander names in Gnisis). It's not a term which should be avoided, but instead expanded upon. It's a big part of Dunmer culture and shows another facet of how the Ashlanders and House elves interact. It's wasteful to throw away the interesting way this word evolved in Dunmer culture.

Just read these quotes on the subject:

Velothi used to refer to the Chimer as a whole.

"When the Velothi first came to Morrowind, they worshipped our most terrible ancestors, the Daedra Lords. Legends say the Daedra Lords themselves built these great shrines, because mortals could not build anything grand enough to suit them. When the Tribunal claimed to have tamed the Daedra Lords, they forbid the worship of the Bad Daedra, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath."

Now the Ashlanders call themselves Velothi because they follow the old ways.

"The Ashlanders are sometimes called the Velothi, for the prophet Veloth who guided us to this land many, many centuries ago. And the Four Tribes are the four tribes of Vvardenfell, the Urshilaku, the Ahemmusa, the Zainab, and the Erabenimsun. It would truly be a miracle to unite these four tribes who have so long raided and warred with one another. But the Nerevarine must be one who performs miracles."

Velothi to the House elves are ex-Ashlanders.

"The Velothi are people of Ashlander stock who have abandoned nomadic life and settled among the native Dunmer; the Velothi are despised by their Ashlander cousins as weak and soft, while the Dunmer look down upon the Velothi as an insignificant underclass."

"The Velothi Dunmer Hetman Abelmawia is the village hetman, and village steward for Hlaren Ramoran, Redoran Master, Councilor, Lord of Gnisis."

"Oh, I see. I refused to join the Mages Guild. I chose to practice healing among my people, away from the politics of the Guild. Since I was a Velothi and not well born like Ranis... Well, it's not important now. Maybe I know a way out of this situation."

[rot]

There are a TON of interesting Dunmer (Indoril leaning) sayings and greetings in Tribunal, like "Life is a burden. Bear it with honor." and "Honor is food and drink for the soul." and "Seven virtues, sera." But I don't know if you want them cluttering this thread, rot.

Sure, though it seemed to me that a lot (like these first two) were more 'generic' than 'idiomatic' - things people might say but not quite expressions. Still Tribunal has a lot of underexploited generic resources & voices, could come in handy (at least as inspiration) when NPCing Almalexia, or for the more imperial-leaning ones you quoted, OE.

edit8: Argonians call each other with marshsister and marshbrother.

And others warmbloods, occasionally and not necessarily offensively

In the Horror of Castle Xyr, Hordalf Xyr's full honorific title is Sedura Kena Telvanni Hordalf Xyr. No idea what all of that means though.

As used in (only a couple) books, Kena seems to be a title for mages/savants (I guess? somewhat obvious interpretation from ken but it fits and 'sera'/'serjo' aren't very subtle either) and Sedura more of a thing for ?high nobibility?. Possibly not things characters would use to address the PC, at least for the second one.

[immortal_pigs]

but i really want a term to refer to non-House Dunmer other than "non-House Dunmer". in the worst case scenario we'll have to call them NHD's

[Melchior Dahrk]

Sure, though it seemed to me that a lot (like these first two) were more 'generic' than 'idiomatic' - things people might say but not quite expressions. Still Tribunal has a lot of underexploited generic resources & voices, could come in handy (at least as inspiration) when NPCing Almalexia, or for the more imperial-leaning ones you quoted, OE.

I agree, I'll keep an eye out for some which are more idiomatic, like "seven virtues". Yeah, the only reason I see not to expand a lot of the voiced greetings from Tribunal to other Indoril holdings is because then the other Great Houses would seem woefully lacking in House-specific greetings. Maybe they could instead be held mostly to temples and monasteries.

And others warmbloods, occasionally and not necessarily offensively

Another one is widewalker. Though I'm not exactly sure who that refers to... other beast races?

As used in (only a couple) books, Kena seems to be a title for mages/savants (I guess? somewhat obvious interpretation from ken but it fits and 'sera'/'serjo' aren't very subtle either) and Sedura more of a thing for ?high nobibility?. Possibly not things characters would use to address the PC, at least for the second one.

I like the idea of Kena being a term of respect for magic users! I don't like Sedura as much though.

but i really want a term to refer to non-House Dunmer other than "non-House Dunmer". in the worst case scenario we'll have to call them NHD's

Independents? That's what I was called throughout college since I never joined a frat HOUSE.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Another possible term for non-House Dunmer could be Houseless. Not creative, but it's blunt and people aren't likely to mistake the meaning.

edit: Kwama pile being used in place of horse shit "What a mess. There's hardly a stitch on ye that's worth more than a kwama pile."

edit2: don't forget they like to say scum about as much as n'wah!

[Rats]

"Go jig a dreugh!"
"Are you tripping on 'driths?"


the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofex_Languages]UESP's article on Ehlnofex languages[/url] also gives us Ser as a way to address people. Perhaps the chart from casual to formal is something in the vein of: f'lah > ser > sera > muthsera > serjo. But who knows. UESP tells that "sedura" would be associated with great wealth. Perhaps the Hlaalu and Camonna Tong kingpins could be called Seduras?

[Gnomey]

It's not a term which should be avoided, but instead expanded upon.

My difficulty is that the term has been used to refer to:

1. the followers of Veloth/Chimer
2. Ashlanders
3. former Ashlanders
4. a prominent architectural set
5. and, by a few people in TR including myself, Houseless Dunmer

I'm not suggesting anything like a moratorium on the term, but I do think it needs to be used sparingly and with great care so as not to cause needless confusion. (It has already caused some).

On the topic of Argonian terminology, I believe they also use the term 'softskin' synonymously with 'warmblood'.

[Melchior Dahrk]

the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofex_Languages]UESP's article on Ehlnofex languages[/url] also gives us Ser as a way to address people. Perhaps the chart from casual to formal is something in the vein of: f'lah > ser > sera > muthsera > serjo. But who knows. UESP tells that "sedura" would be associated with great wealth. Perhaps the Hlaalu and Camonna Tong kingpins could be called Seduras?

Some of the early dev forum posts say Muthser instead of Muthsera as well. But all of the uses in the game itself are of the form Muthsera and Sera. Though, I won't rule out the possibility that that is simply because they didn't want to voice separate greetings depending on whether the PC is male or female...

My difficulty is that the term has been used to refer to:

1. the followers of Veloth/Chimer
2. Ashlanders
3. former Ashlanders
4. a prominent architectural set
5. and, by a few people in TR including myself, Houseless Dunmer

I'm not suggesting anything like a moratorium on the term, but I do think it needs to be used sparingly and with great care so as not to cause needless confusion. (It has already caused some).

I'm not sure why that should be such a problem.

1. Veloth = People of Veloth and refers to the Chimer. Okay.
2. Ashlanders are Ashlanders, but they still consider themselves Velothi because they hold onto the old ways more than House elves. This term is used among Ashlanders only and infrequently. House elves just call them Ashlanders.
3. "Velothi" is used by the House elves to refer to Ashlanders who come live among them. Probably because "Ashlander" no longer makes sense and the "Velothi" probably call themselves that and so it stuck with the House elves. Ashlanders would not call "Velothi" Velothi, however. More likely just calling them Outcasts or The Lost or something. It is a House elf term.
4. The Velothi architectural style is ancient and was developed by the Velothi/Chimer, not sure why this should cause confusion.
5. This idea simply has no basis, being contradicted by what we already know.

I still think it would make more sense to call Dunmer who do not belong to a Great House, Houseless, rather than "Velothi". Though obviously that doesn't sound as "cool". But at least it isn't already taken.

This really needs it's own thread though. Maybe a mod can snip everything we've said. I don't want to clutter up this thread with this discussion.

[rot]

scum

Normal insult, but the famous Ordinator lines owe more to it being the stereotypical term used by 'law enforcers' IRL.

Thieves Guild
edit: so would they call guards Mold Hats? (as in: bonemold)

The 'mold' in bonemold refers to the technique applied to the bone iiuc, so the part to stress would probably rather be 'bone'. I'd actually thought of boneheads for that very same purpose but wasn't sure whether the fact it's an actual word makes it better or worse


re:Thieves Guild,
Keeping in with the theatre theme in Almalexia, extorted merchants can be 'patrons',
A retired member is 'offstage', (or rather imprisoned? with retired being 'backstage')
they could use 'soft keys' to 'negociate' doors... a lockbox could be 'shy' and require sweet-talking...
...

[Sload]

bugbone is used for bonemold somewhere

[rot]

... and godsblood for glass and ebony, though in this case it might be less outlander misconception and more, accurate description of what these things are?

scuttlehead is another silly insult,
scuttle and cuttle being portions of bug meat

milk drinker is apparently an insult from Skyrim.


Has anyone read the ES novels? Personally cba to because of the writing but that's not to say there's nothing good in them?

[Gnomey]

It has a few Argonian curse words among other things, but I think most relevant information can be found in [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/novels]The Imperial Library[/url].