[OLD] Region Planning: Mournhold/Alt Orethan

[Yeti]

At the moment, the landscape surrounding Almalexia is kind of a hodgepodge of different styles. We have the largely open plains around Othrensis, a rocky AI area around the capital, and a bunch of WG mountains bordering the Lan Orethan. The area is split into two regions, Mournhold and the Alt Orethan. I think these should be consolidated into a single region for the sake of creating a consistent backdrop for the capital. I'm not calling for a reworking to take place right now, only that we develop an actual plan for giving this area an identity.

My vision for the region to give it an enchanting quality to befit the heartland of the religious House Indoril. It should be relatively lush, green and generally "normal" compared to the rest of Morrowind. Seeing as many new players will likely beeline to the capital soon after starting a new game, it should be relatively noob-friendly and accessible. Dark green vegetation should be used extensively, especially alongside the tranquil waterways of the Orethan River. The population density should be high.

To differentiate the region from the neighboring Thirr River Valley and Lan Orethan, I'd like to see the foliage here significantly less dense, basically following the current look for the landscape around Othrensis. For rocks, I personally think using AI complements the area nicely, even though there's a lot of it already in neighboring regions.

I'm also in favor of extending the Ashland border zone between Old Ebonheart and Seyda Vano to replace the WG buffer mountains separating the current Mournhold region from the Thirr River Valley and Inlet Bog. This will be consistent with the way we're likely to handle the AA-TRV border, and would extend an otherwise tiny sub-region into something relevant.

But that's just my rambling thoughts. What do you want Morrowind's political and cultural heartland to look like?

[Gnomey]

Ignoring the immediate practicality of the idea and expanding on Theo's post in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24420]this thread[/url]:

I'm not sure how high the region currently is above sea level, but I envision a lush and fairly flat, smooth region with few rocks and a lot of crisscrossing streams, dotted with clusters of low cliffs/mesas. I might whip up an example for the heck of it.

More important for me is that the region shows heavy signs of agriculture. While I'm not familiar with the region, between forests and 'Inlet Bog' the majority of Indoril lands look rather untamed at the moment. I want to make sure that Indoril agriculture isn't limited to the TRV.

Edit: I certainly agree that implementation of what is discussed here should not immediately follow this discussion, and that we take our time discussing the topic.

[sasquatch]

Before this proposal has a chance to germinate I want to say that I don't support it at all. The land in the valley around Orthrensis and to the NW should not be changed to cliffs or mesa and I do not think the land needs to be so radically changed as first proposed.

My reasoning for this is that a city as massive as Almalexia would need to produce food in the surrounding country to sustain itself. Even if they are importing the majority of their foods they would need the much of the area in the nearby valley to grow food. This also gives Othrensis a good reason for existing so close to Almalexia. Perhaps some of the completed MH interiors can be used for several plantations around the valley. If people insist on altering the area adding mixed use farmland that utilize advanced methods of permaculture would be a better option. These areas could be very large and incorporated into rolling hills and even wooded areas that would be more interesting to explore than flat land and straight rows of crops. Doing this would reduce the workload of making any changes by possibly salvaging already completed interior and exterior work, and would also make far more sense than a massive city surrounded by unusable terrain.

I have also attached the overhead map of the region from the Othrensis-Thirr planning in the event this thread gains traction:

http://i.imgur.com/ue08TNv.jpg

[Yeti]

I actually also don't think the current terrain needs a complete makeover, as you seem to be suggesting, Gnomey. The current exterior is a good starting point, in my opinion. I just want there to be greater consistency and an actual codified concept for the region that takes its current features into account. Of all our regions, I don't think this one warrants a major re-do, seeing as Alamlexia's urban splendor will overshadow the surrounding wilderness anyway.

In general, I think the region will work fine keeping the current rockiness near Almalexia and having it flat like the land around Othrensis throughout the rest. Waterways will obviously have a large presence, with the Orethan River being the main boat-going attraction.

There should be a heavy emphasis on Indoril manor estates and communal farming, though to a lesser extent than the Thirr River Valley. If done right, I think this could help settle the problem of what to do with a large number of Othrensis's Mournhold buildings.

Seeing as we don't currently have a 100 percent agreed upon action plan for Almalexia, we should probably focus on discussing the area of the Alt Orethan that is relevant to current sectional work in the Othrensis-Thirr group.

But for the sake of future planning, here is how I generally see the region's borders and their relation with neighboring regions.It also shows some of the annexation of filler areas into central Morrowind's larger more conceptually solid regions that I'd like to see take place. Those, however, should probably be discussed at a later time.

http://i.imgur.com/RFxJxKM.jpg

EDIT: And it in case it wasn't completely clear, this thread's main purposes are to.

1. Set down preliminary planning for the Alt Orethan region to be included in the Master Plan by gathering opinions and brainstorming ideas that can be taken into consideration later on. Basically, I want to set the Alt Orethan on equal footing with regions like the Thirr River Valley and Lan Orethan, which, although they haven't been incorporated into a Master Plan document yet, already have generally agreed upon identities and features.

2. Advance region planning for the Alt Orethan to the point that allows stalled work on the Othrensis-Thirr section to move forward. I don't think we need a 100 percent Master Plan certified concept for the region to commence needed terrain work on its westernmost frontier.

[sasquatch]

This seems more reasonable then what I had originally assumed. Being a really visual person the attached image helps me understand what you are proposing much better. I do like the idea of making estates and farming communes. If the drawn in borders are suggesting changing the color of the terrain however, I'm not sure it'd be worth the effort. I think the light tan and greenish rock colors seem more inviting which I assume would be more fitting for a relative safe area close to Almalexia. I tend to associate the really dark color terrain with more dangerous regions.

[Yeti]

Are you talking about the colors I used for the border lines? There is no direct correlation between those and actual in-game terrain colors. I picked colors that I thought were indicative of some regions, yes (darker green for the Lan Orethan, light green for the Inlet Bog), but it was mostly arbitrary.

[sasquatch]

I was referring to the 2 different color terrain in the Ashland border regions. I'm not familiar with the shorthand used here (AA AI etc).

[arvisrend]

+1 for expanding the Ashlands buffer. And I still want a region name for it. How do we call a reverse foyada?

I'm a bit confused by the apparent contradiction between "relatively lush, green"/"Dark green vegetation should be used extensively" and "I'd like to see the foliage here significantly less dense" in Yeti's OP. We need to be careful with the framerate, particularly around Almalexia proper; both trees and farm plants are damaging in this respect.

I'm neutral on revamping the Alt Orethan (as opposed to the buffer zones). If we do so, making it less similar to the TRV (or the Askkaedh Coast) would be a priority for me.

sasquatch: If you are worried about the ashlandification of safe terrain between TRV and Alt Orethan, I think you should keep in mind that the border region is really just a border region, relatively narrow and realistically safe in its southern part. Even if it is ashlands, there isn't much space for dragons to hatch there. (Things can be worse around the Inlet Bog, though I'm not saying they should.)

[Yeti]

Okay, thanks for clarifying, Sasquatch. I had an online assignment to turn in, so I didn't read your post as thoroughly as I should have. My apologies

By naming the area "Ashlands border region" I am, as you suspected, saying that the tan terrain in the locations I've circled with blue should be converted to Ashlands. I'd rather have one strongly defined and unified border region here, rather than have it divided into smaller, conceptually insignificant ones.

Although I understand what you mean by having the area around Almalexia appear welcoming, I also think it is a recognized aspect of Morrowind's geographic identity to have dangerous areas directly bordering safe ones. It creates the image that the entire province is a treacherous alien hellhole, where unwary travelers are in danger of walking into hellish environments at any moment. Besides, the Inlet Bog is already a pretty dangerous region, despite its proximity to Almalexia.

I also personally like the sharp contrast between the green colors of the Ascadian Islands-style landscape and the Ashland's dark terrain. I think it creates a visually strong and effective impression.

Concerning the work needed for the terrain conversion, I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think the payoff was worthwhile. Tamriel Rebuilt has far too many bland filler regions like the tan mountain range directly west and north of Othrensis. Ideally, these should all be merged into major regions, so that our province becomes a patchwork quilt of clearly defined and interesting landscapes, rather than a geographic hodgepodge.

As always, I appreciate your input, Sasquatch. Answering your posts has helped me construct and solidify my own opinions on the topic.

[Yeti]

+1 for expanding the Ashlands buffer. And I still want a region name for it. How do we call a reverse foyada?

Actually, despite what I said in another thread recently, I think we potentially could make a foyada work here. It all depends on whether we can adapt the mini-volcano near Old Ebonheart into a viable source for one.

I'm a bit confused by the apparent contradiction between "relatively lush, green"/"Dark green vegetation should be used extensively" and "I'd like to see the foliage here significantly less dense" in Yeti's OP. We need to be careful with the framerate, particularly around Almalexia proper; both trees and farm plants are damaging in this respect.

By "lush and green" I mean the color of the vegetation should give it a lush appearance, even though it should be significantly less dense compared to the TRV and LO. So yes, frame-rates should be kept low in this region for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm neutral on revamping the Alt Orethan (as opposed to the buffer zones). If we do so, making it less similar to the TRV (or the Askkaedh Coast) would be a priority for me.

I don't really mind having the Alt Orethan share similarities with those regions. I think it can be differentiated enough in the way we use the resources (more rocky areas around Almalexia, less foliage, more wide open flat spaces, ect ect) that we can get away with using AI rocks and plants as it's major building blocks. Again, Almalexia is going to be the big deal here. It's okay, in my opinion, for the surrounding wilderness to be relatively nondescript.

[sasquatch]

After reviewing Sload's notes on difficulty regions and terrain I'm only more certain of my position on this. Before I begin could you make some bulletpoints listing the pros and cons of redoing that entire tan mountain range?

[Yeti]

-The tan mountain area is kind of boring.
-It isn't a cohesive part of any of the neighboring regions.
-Ashlands, especially a thin border region, do not necessarily need to be high difficulty areas. This place could be like the relatively safe foyada leading from Peliad to Balmora.
-The current Ashlands near Old Ebonheart are small to the point of feeling out of place. It makes sense to expand them southward.
-This is starting to look like a good place to include a foyada, a geographic feature that showed up a lot on Vvardenfell that the mainland currently has none of.
-Having a small Ashlands region here helps break up the monotony of all the Ascadian Islands greenery in central Morrowind.
-Compared to the myriad of other areas in the mod that could end up getting a major redo, this one isn't especially large or complicated to change.

I'd provide a list of cons, but I think you are better capable of doing that, Sasquatch.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

What's the point of the small ashlands region in the Mephalain Mountains? It's circled so I assume you currently intend for it to stay, but it's so small it looks like one of the small pointless filler regions you're trying to get rid of.

I like the sound of having small Indoril farms and manors in the Alt Orethan. Some could have belonged to families now extinct and have fallen into disrepair.

[rot]

This is just a general reminder and doesn't necessarily relate to this discussion, but please mind the dangers of looking at things *only on a map*. Before you decide something is good / bad / useless / necessary, look at it ingame - things don't have to make 100% perfect overhead geographical sense, because that's not the way the player will experience them at all. No, not even on their mini-map.

[Rats]

This is just a general reminder and doesn't necessarily relate to this discussion, but please mind the dangers of looking at things *only on a map*. Before you decide something is good / bad / useless / necessary, look at it ingame - things don't have to make 100% perfect overhead geographical sense, because that's not the way the player will experience them at all. No, not even on their mini-map.

+1. See how the Grazelands sticks out in the Vvardenfell map. It's like a green fucking Tetris block next to the gray Ashlands. Yet, ingame there's absolutely no problem: the change in the terrain looks fine.

Expanding the ashlandic mountain range sounds interesting. I say do it.

[Nemon]

This is just a general reminder and doesn't necessarily relate to this discussion, but please mind the dangers of looking at things *only on a map*. Before you decide something is good / bad / useless / necessary, look at it ingame - things don't have to make 100% perfect overhead geographical sense, because that's not the way the player will experience them at all. No, not even on their mini-map.

This is very important to remember.

[sasquatch]

The benefits you listed are mostly excuses based on personal feelings that came on a whim that are not weighed against reason. I will review your reasoning in clearer terms:

"-entirely remaking the tan mountain area into black terrain and foyadas (narrow paths with steep impassible sides featuring burnt stumps etc) will be more interesting
http://images.uesp.net/a/a7/MW-place-Molag_Amur.jpg

-^the mainland currently "has none of these"

-redoing the entire mountain range would make the circled blue area all black terrain instead of tan green and black this would be better for one general theme

-just because the area was not formed by a volcano and is not a high level area does not mean it should not be redone to make a solid black mountain range

-the Ashlands are small and feel out of place near OE so they should replace all areas circled in blue to be larger

-green and tan scenery is boring so we need more black terrain

-compared to redoing half of morrowind 2-3 times this is a small change so redoing this area is not an issue"

In my next post I will explain some of the negatives that were excluded from this proposal and why the above proposal is unreasonable

[sasquatch]

The mountain range already looks good. It is well cluttered and high quality. Redoing this area as described would only change the color of the terrain not improve the area visually

A "foyada" would not make sense here with the adjoining region being a valley. These terrain forms would naturally continue into the valley and along the riverbed since they are formed by lavaflow.

Vvardenfell featured these areas because it is an island entirely formed by a massive volcano (the mainland here was not)

Even forgetting that the terrain you want here would be entirely out of place and require many hours that would be better spent on adding more to the mod rather than destroying what has already been well-made, the tan terrain here is more fitting for a low-level area

Remaking this area as described would ignore the well planned guidelines for difficulty and terrain placement. This proposal is destructive- not innovative, it is not creative. It would implement no new experiences for the player so it there is no adequate reason to break the guidelines made by Sload here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24291

Redoing the mountains here would like also require making new interiors for the caves in the area (while the old ones could be relocated this would require time additional to just doing the exterior)

Continuing to redo areas for superficial reasons that introduce no new gameplay instead of making progress on new cells/features/gameplay will reduce morale and set back production on the mod by 5-6 years or more

We will lose more developers and less will join, people will lose confidence in the ability of people here to make rational and productive decisions

I'd rather use my spare time to continue work on my interior, but instead I feel I need to save the mod from continually self-destructing worse than Duke Nukem Forever.
______________


Reasonable and easy to understand guidelines need to be created for what is acceptable to be redone along with a framework that anyone can use to logically analyze the practically and value of proposals. I think the simplest solution would be a general guideline of making "minor adjustments and major additions." When I ask myself if this is a reasonable proposal I can think of no reason to say yes. This would be a MAJOR adjustment and introduce nothing new other than different color terrain that doesnt even belong here.

Perhaps a more concrete method is needed for developers at TR to analyze whether proposals should be used and if so, when they should be implemented:
https://www.taylorintime.com/resourcece ... tygrid.jpg

This is a Merrill Covey Matrix. Using this I would place this proposal to entirely remake the tan mountains into black mountains in box 4 "Not Urgent, Not Important," but this doesn't fully describe the extent to which I think this proposal should not be used. It should also not be implemented because its value does not outweigh the time/difficulty of remaking the area especially considering the mountain range we already is high quality work.

[arvisrend]

Actually, despite what I said in another thread recently, I think we potentially could make a foyada work here. It all depends on whether we can adapt the mini-volcano near Old Ebonheart into a viable source for one.

I see what you mean -- I imagined a foyada being lower than the landscape surrounding it, which wouldn't work in that region, but if we you mean a foyada inside the elevated ashlands border zone, that can well work. Is there a volcano around that gives it a reason to exist?

So yes, frame-rates should be kept low in this region

Hah, I doubt this is what you wanted to say :)

I don't really mind having the Alt Orethan share similarities with those regions.

The problem is, TRV already looks too much like the Askkaedh in places. But given how little we have in the way of models, this is probably unavoidable.

[Yeti]

What's the point of the small ashlands region in the Mephalain Mountains? It's circled so I assume you currently intend for it to stay, but it's so small it looks like one of the small pointless filler regions you're trying to get rid of.

I would consider it part of my proposed Ashland buffer region, only cut off from the larger part of it by past erosion, or something. I personally think it works to have a geographic region that isn't contained in a single block once in a while. It would only be a filler region if there was no other Ashland areas nearby.

Having looked at the area of discussion in the CS more closely, Sasquatch is right when he says that it is quality exterior work. Even though I would have preferred having a sharper divide between the very similar Thirr River Valley and Alth Orethan regions, I supposed I could live with merely replacing the WG rocks in the area with AI, so that it blends completely with the Thirr River Valley, and doesn't stand apart as a tiny sub-region. This would only require a simple use of the CS's search and replace function. Afterwards we can move onto border matching.

I still support at least extending the Ashlands to replace the WG border between the Inlet Bog and the Alt Orethan, though.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Vvardenfell featured these areas because it is an island entirely formed by a massive volcano (the mainland here was not)

Technically Vvardenfell was a massive volcano before it was an island.

[Gnomey]

This discussion went places I didn't quite expect. First of all I'd like to clarify that my proposal was an extreme example of what could be done, largely for the sake of discussion. It also isn't quite as extreme as some have assumed, but I suppose that is better shown via a sample plugin.

So setting that aside for the moment, here are the things I actually think the region needs:
1. I think the region should be very tame with a strong agricultural focus.
2. I think the region should be mostly grassland (farms count as this), to facilitate the above. This is already, for the most part, the case.
3. I think the region should be made less rocky, mostly to facilitate the first point. I'm not saying all rocks should be removed; something like the area north of Othrensis would already do. However, ideally, clumps of vegetation such as bushes and other features would largely replace the practical function of rocks.
4. I think the region should look more lush, without (necessarily) adding trees. (Perhaps with the exception of windbreaks, if we want to go with that look for the farms).

I would consider removing a lot of the mountains within the region. The region could be made to work either way, though.

In the context of this thread, those are the main points I would personally like to see reflected in how we handle Alt Orethan, and the rest of this post can really be ignored. However, I'm worried that this discussion, like many discussions on regions in TR to this point, is being approached from too narrow of an angle: most region discussions so far have, from my perspective, effectively been balancing acts of aesthetics and workload, with the overall aim of establishing an internally consistent visual aesthetic for that region. I think keeping the discussion at that level could and has created problems for TR.

My major concern with Alt Orethan, the role it should play and consequently how it should look, is in the context of Indoril territory:
Of the five major regions in Indoril lands, (Thirr River Valley, Inlet Bog, Alt Orethan, Lan Orethan, Mephalain Mountains), three are covered in trees, one of which is also a swamp, and the fourth is a mountain range.
As the center of a very civilized nation, and as the center of an agriculturally-focused House, both of which have occupied much the same territory for four millenia, (ignoring, in the case of Indoril, the lands gobbled up by House Hlaalu to the west), I consider that rather jarring. (Just read up on pre-Industrial deforestation in the real world).
Nothing can be done about a mountain range, and unless we give the Indoril windmills there's nothing much they'd be able to do about the swamps either. (I'd imagine Inlet Bog would also function as a buffer region against ash from Vvardenfell). The two remaining forest regions are also clearly inhabited and tame, though it is still a little odd that they are forested, and they also happen to look very good, so the problem isn't quite as large as it could be. (I would consider giving coastal Lan Orethan large, tilled clearings, but that belongs in another thread).
Making up for the shortcomings of the other four regions in reflecting certain vital aspects of House Indoril's identity, and thereby on a broader scope the Dunmer people and culture, is a task which I think Alt Orethan is well-positioned to take on. That, I think, should be Alt Orethan's purpose as a region.

Now a lot of the things I'm writing about are well beyond the scope of this thread, but I think they need to be considered in discussing this thread.
Up to this point, TR, in its endeavour to remain consistent with the aesthetics of Vvardenfell, has pulled over many of the technical conventions of Vvardenfell, both consciously and unconsciously.
One example would be using rocks to hide ugly texture transitions and as anchor points for smaller vegitation, with the end of breaking up open stretches of land texture. Another example would be dividing virtually every visually distinct region from other regions via thin, low mountain ranges. In some of TR's older work that particular convention was followed ab adsurdum.
In places, especially more recently, TR has moved away from some of those conventions. Roth Roryn is a region full of cliffs, which effectively do not exist on Vvardenfell. The Velothi Mountains are really high, unlike the rocky hill ranges on Vvardenfell. Uld Vraech, as a snowy region, has many stretches without visible vegetation or even rocks. The Thirr River Valley and Lan Orethan, being forests, also count as divergent.
A large reason for moving away from those conventions is 'because we can'. TR's cliff meshes and the improved performance of the average computer have greatly facilitated the inclusion of cliffs and forests, for example, and the vast area of land TR has to work with provides a lot of room for new ideas. However, in abandoning certain conventions, TR has managed to provide new and unique environments for the player to explore, rather than an uninspired and monotonous patchwork of regurgitated Vvardenfell regions.
However, those two particular conventions I mentioned above, concerning the use of rocks and the use of border mountains, are still, for the most part, adhered to.
While I have already described the practical functions of those conventions, which are all very valid, all conventions also have a vital visual function. And in the case of those two conventions, the visual function is to make the land look rough and untamed.
While at first glance that matches the rough and unfriendly impression Morrowind is suppose to have, it neglects the fact that Morrowind is home to one of Tamriel's oldest, most civilized and stable civilizations.
While most -- if not all -- of Morrowind should look alien and unfriendly, I think a large part of it should at the same time look civilized. And I think Alt Orethan should very much be included in that part.

When discussing a region, I think we need to look at the conventions employed on Vvardenfell and on the Mainland and ask which can be used, and to what extent they should be used in the new region, and, for the conventions that do not fit, how their roles can otherwise be occupied.
In the case of Alt Orethan, the conventions I am concerned about are the two I mentioned above, as well as Vvardenfell's ratio of wilderness to civilization.
The first two are rather easily discussed: I personally like the idea of replacing rocks with vegetation and perhaps streams in the role of hiding ugly texture transitions and breaking up stretches of land texture.
As Alt Orethan occupies a large area, the existence of buffer mountains at the edges of it is not much of a problem, in my opinion. If Alt Orethan were on a plateau I might argue that the mountains are superfluous, but it is not, so they are not. I would like to note here, though, that if we go with the foyada idea I really think we should establish a clear source for the lava. I'm not sure whether the lava pool in the north would suffice. I'll also note here that I think search-and-replacing the WG mountains to make them AI is a good idea.
The third problem is stickier. As Vvardenfell has only recently opened to settlement, dividing its territory between small, civilized and safe settlements and larger, uncivilized and dangerous wilderness areas worked very well. That approach also works well for the reclusive herding culture of Telvanni and, for that matter, House Redoran. The further south we go, though, the more pressing the question will become of how to apply that convention, currently present in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24291]Master Plan Foundation Document[/url], to Morrowind's tamer and increasingly agricultural regions.
And that, I think, is the extreme end of this discussion: where we strike the balance between developed and undeveloped land. If we go too far in the direction of undeveloped land, I fear the Indoril, and to some extent Dunmer as a whole, will come off as eking out a living on a vast frontier, rather than being an extremely well-established civilization. If the mod took place in the days of Veloth it might work, but I don't think it works in 3E 427. If we go too far in the other direction, though, we will need to consider how to handle a new kind of environment, and what gameplay experience such an environment could and should provide.

And just to be clear, either extreme could be accomplished in this case with a minimal amount of exterior work. As the majority of the territory being discussed is occupied by low hills near sea level, all of the options discussed so far would not actually require much work, and certainly not an overhaul of the region.

[Nemon]

Again, any attempt to open up the area around Almalexia, making it even more of a visible "beacon" in the middle of a cultivated, smooth landscape will require great swaths of land to avoid the Disneyland syndrome. This also if the city is restructured. Our current vanilla based approach of tricking the player into believing there are great distances between cities and settlements is vital in our effort to create a believable mod. This needs to be taken into consideration, and for that more land than the Alt Orethan is required, probably.

Whiterun looks neat, now quadruple that to get the correct size when referring to visuals.

Rocks are a good way of covering texture seams, and in a cultivated rural area they make sense. Farmers dig them up to clear the soil and they need to put them somewhere. They also provide a neat way of adding flora, since that tends to look odd standing by itself.

[Yeti]

In an attempt to move us towards consensus, here are some major points about the region that at least a majority of us seem to support.

1. Merge the current Mournhold and Alt Orethan regions into one region, to be called Alt Orethan.

2. Keep things rocky around Almalexia (I agree with Nemon on this, Gnomey) and implement flat plains in the out ring of the region. Should have a lush, vibrant look.

3. Keep the area noob-friendly and relatively "normal"

4. Use foliage that is less dense to keep framerates low and differentiate the region from the thick vegetation seen in the Lan Orethan and Thirr River Valley.Plants used here should side on the darker half of the green color spectrum.

5. The Orethan River should have a considerable presence, creating tranquil waterways and streams. The use of water, However, shouldn't be as significant as in the Thirr River Valley

6. We should implement heavy signs of agriculture, focused on Indoril communal farming with manor estates and clustered peasant farms. The Velothi village of Othrensis should also have an agricultural character to it. The important point is to make House Indoril's political and cultural heartland appear tame compared to its other regions. This should be a very civilized area that showcases House Indoril's influence as a House and Morrowind's identity as a long-established nation.

And here are some issues that seem to need further discussion:

7. What rocks should we use? Should we keep AI and rely on how it is arranged to differentiate the region?

8. What will we do with the Thirr River Valley border? Do we extend the Ashland mountains or simply replace WG rocks with AI? Or should we keep the WG rocks and make sure they are used extensively in the southern TRV to make the WG border a meaningful sub-region?

9. How should the course of the Orethan River be changed to make it more realistic?

10. Is everyone okay with at least extending the mini-Ashland region to wrap around the Inlet Bog?

[sasquatch]

Nonono NO! There is obviously no consensus.

[sasquatch]

Gnomey has raised some very good points here especially on going beyond our current fixation with defining regions by the color of terrain rather than actual content, gameplay experience etc. He also raised the important issue of reflecting civilized/wilderness and the limitations of our current work conventions. Gnomey has also proposed what I think is a sound 4 point plan to work with for converting this valley into a more agriculturally productive area.

I have added links and images to get us thinking about farms differently and begin brainstorming on how to fill this valley and the surrounding hills with agricultural areas that look convincing and fun to explore:

http://archaeology.about.com/od/neolithic/tp/ancient_farming.htm

http://plantingmilkwood.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/3612108317_2f2b35ff29_o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QeuFCRv.jpg?1

http://midwestpermaculture.com/2012/07/hugelkultured-swale-with-linear-food-forest/

http://www.integratedlifeproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/farm_hmongGardens.jpg

http://www.worldofstock.com/stock-photos/olive-trees-growing-on-a-hillside-farm/TEI2589

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tim_proffitt_white/4434882759/

http://permaculturenews.org/2011/09/03/a-small-productive-fruit-farm-in-cambodia/

http://i.imgur.com/SUYGJTW.jpg

http://urbancampesina.com/tag/swale/

fig 6.4-6.7 show how temperature and airflow are effected by landscape and its affect on crops and ecology
http://www.fao.org/docrep/008/y7223e/y7223e0c.htm

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Hopefully people will view these. I was unable to put them directly on the thread because of their size.

[Gnomey]

Yeti said "In an attempt to move us towards consensus". Not "This is our consensus". This discussion is not going to spring right over to implementation, so there is no reason to be alarmed. There is plenty of time to discuss this topic.

Replying to Yeti's points:

1. Yes.
2. Nemon makes a very good point, and the region is large enough so that the rockiness around Almalexia doesn't take up too much space. I agree with this, too.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes. I think dry land should definitely dominate the region, as opposed to water.
6. Yes.
7. Yes. Again, I'd try to avoid using rocks more than necessary outside of the area immediately around Almalexia.
8. As stated I'm fine with both the Ashlands approach and the AI approach. The AI approach would probably mean less work, but we will need to decide what to do with the many Ashland micro-regions in the area at some point.
9. I'm not sure about this, and am sure others have more concrete plans.
10. Here I am more hesitant. I'm worried it will look too thin and unrealistic. If it can be pulled off well I'm all for it, but I'd probably need to see an example before I'm convinced.

[sasquatch]

Maybe you didnt read what he wrote

"10. Is EVERYONE okay with at least extending the mini-Ashland region to wrap around the Inlet Bog?"

No, no I'm am not.
http://i.imgur.com/RFxJxKM.jpg

[rot]

1... yes to all
9 Swiftoak has thoughts about this

10. Is everyone okay with at least extending the mini-Ashland region to wrap around the Inlet Bog?

Wouldn't mind it

10. Here I am more hesitant. I'm worried it will look too thin and unrealistic. If it can be pulled off well I'm all for it, but I'd probably need to see an example before I'm convinced.

You have but to look at the region separation near Seyda Neen. I'm guessing it didn't strike anyone as particularly odd

[sasquatch]

Having lived and worked on an organic farm and studying organic farming methods and environmental conservation for the last three years I believe I have a lot to potentially contribute to this discussion unfortunately it is being controlled by the wrong people.

[Yeti]

"10. Is EVERYONE okay with at least extending the mini-Ashland region to wrap around the Inlet Bog?"

No, no I'm am not.
http://i.imgur.com/RFxJxKM.jpg

Why? Unlike the border area between the Thirr River Valley and Alt Orethan, the rocky WG border between the Inlet Bog and Alt Orethan isn't anything remarkable. It already includes sizable Ashland areas, I'm only suggesting these be expanded a bit so they can be considered a larger geographic feature, rather than being random blotches of Ashlands included for no clear reason.

http://i.imgur.com/7WnexzG.jpg

Having lived and worked on an organic farm and studying organic farming methods and environmental conservation for the last three years I believe I have a lot to potentially contribute to this discussion unfortunately it is being controlled by the wrong people.

You're free to share whatever you want, Sasquatch. I'd greatly appreciate any knowledge you can dispense concerning the agricultural nature of the Alt Orethan. The only point we seem to be disagreeing on is the region's mountainous borders.

[sasquatch]

that seems your only point to exist on this thread

[Gnomey]

That point currently appears to be the one with the least consensus, hence why it is being discussed. If someone were to disagree with another point, such as whether agriculture should be practiced in Alt Orethan at all, I'm sure that would be discussed. As long as nobody actively disagrees with a point, there is not much reason to discuss it, though. Conversely, if people do not agree on a point, it definitely should be discussed, preferably in detail.
This thread is not being actively controlled by anyone. As long as the post is on-topic, you can discuss anything you want.

You have but to look at the region separation near Seyda Neen. I'm guessing it didn't strike anyone as particularly odd

That did strike me as odd. So, to pick up on an earlier comment, did the block-like border of the Grazelands. While neither particularly bothered me, they both stood out to me.
On Vvardenfell the odd region borders were, however, justified: first of all, the roads leading from Seyda Neen were supposed to function as a tour of Vvardenfell in miniature. Second of all, Vvardenfell's relatively small size required bunching regions together tightly. A good playing experience trumps sensible logistics.
TR almost has more room to work with than it knows what to do with, though. There is no real reason for thin, scraggly regions, at least that I can think of.

Why should any Ashlands exist in Indoril lands at all? I suppose the first reason to keep the current patches of Ashland would be so as not to waste modders' work, but giving the patches of Ashland a suitable context would require us to re-do a lot of work anyway.
Another reason would be that the patches create a good contrast with the lush green of the surrounding regions, but that is subjective and, by itself, not entirely convincing to me.
The argument that TR has too many low, brown hills strikes me as fairly convincing, though also subjective, but I'm not sure whether Ashlands are the way to fix that.
Then comes the question of what sort of gameplay experience those stretches of Ashland would provide the player with. If we were talking about a large expanse like the Armun Ashlands the answer to that would be clear. It is a different kind of environment to explore. I'm not sure whether a single, snake-like Foyada and some grey hills would provide a full and enjoyable experience, though.

[sasquatch]

The mountain range already looks good. It is well cluttered and high quality. Redoing this area as described would only change the color of the terrain not improve the area visually

A "foyada" would not make sense here with the adjoining region being a valley. These terrain forms would naturally continue into the valley and along the riverbed since they are formed by lavaflow.

Vvardenfell featured these areas because it is an island entirely formed by a massive volcano (the mainland here was not)

Even forgetting that the terrain you want here would be entirely out of place and require many hours that would be better spent on adding more to the mod rather than destroying what has already been well-made, the tan terrain here is more fitting for a low-level area

Remaking this area as described would ignore the well planned guidelines for difficulty and terrain placement. This proposal is destructive- not innovative, it is not creative. It would implement no new experiences for the player so it there is no adequate reason to break the guidelines made by Sload here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24291

Redoing the mountains here would like also require making new interiors for the caves in the area (while the old ones could be relocated this would require time additional to just doing the exterior)

Continuing to redo areas for superficial reasons that introduce no new gameplay instead of making progress on new cells/features/gameplay will reduce morale and set back production on the mod by 5-6 years or more

We will lose more developers and less will join, people will lose confidence in the ability of people here to make rational and productive decisions

I'd rather use my spare time to continue work on my interior, but instead I feel I need to save the mod from continually self-destructing worse than Duke Nukem Forever.
______________

Reasonable and easy to understand guidelines need to be created for what is acceptable to be redone along with a framework that anyone can use to logically analyze the practically and value of proposals. I think the simplest solution would be a general guideline of making "minor adjustments and major additions." When I ask myself if this is a reasonable proposal I can think of no reason to say yes. This would be a MAJOR adjustment and introduce nothing new other than different color terrain that doesnt even belong here.

Perhaps a more concrete method is needed for developers at TR to analyze whether proposals should be used and if so, when they should be implemented:
https://www.taylorintime.com/resourcece ... tygrid.jpg

This is a Merrill Covey Matrix. Using this I would place this proposal to entirely remake the tan mountains into black mountains in box 4 "Not Urgent, Not Important," but this doesn't fully describe the extent to which I think this proposal should not be used. It should also not be implemented because its value does not outweigh the time/difficulty of remaking the area especially considering the mountain range we already is high quality work.

EDIT: Actually I'm not done here. Yeti, your proposal is a bad, bad idea. I'm in favor of respecting everyone's opinions and ideas and encouraging people to contribute however, but your bad idea is shutting down this thread and preventing progress on good ideas. Your proposal has been given WAY more than enough consideration by any reasonable standard. If you have forgotten how you and TR treated my previous proposal I have not: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24358


The way I have shown you respect is by answering your ideas as though they were worth discussing, replying point by point which is far more than I received. Now that your proposal has been discussed it needs to be dropped so discussion can continue about how to proceed with making the valley an enjoyable and inviting agricultural area.

*I want to also add here as an aside I have since resolved any differences I had with TF and the majority of leadership and realize there are some genuine changes happening in area of more open communication and the way the project is organized*

[rot]

Then comes the question of what sort of gameplay experience those stretches of Ashland would provide the player with.

The existing Ashland bits actually don't have any specific gameplay value either (aside I guess from providing a lava pool, which is not something we very much enjoy looking at in this engine, to a single small and otherwise unremarkable dwemer ruin). Extending them won't give the mini-region an identity or purpose (in itself - though it might allow one to be developed at a later date? not holding out hope)

So their current purpose is solely aesthetics/variety, and the point of extending them through borders would be the same.

I'd agree that more or any Ashlands aren't something Indoril lands thematically need. Nor is a swamp, for that matter

[Yeti]

Morrowind is widely described as a Ash-filled place in lore, and I don't think it's unreasonable to include some of it in places close to Red Mountain. I personally think House Indoril's lands could stand to have some of the blighted features that the province is famous for. Right now, everything in their territory is lush as can be. How can the Indoril claim to be representative of Morrowind's cultural identity if their lands lack any references to the province's popular image as a hostile Ash-stricken wasteland?

But I'm actually not as attached to my Ashlands idea as my posts here would imply. I do think the border between the Inlet Bog and Alt Orethan is in need of major work anyway, so I merely raised it as a possible option. Either way, landscape is going to need redoing. I'm fine with keeping the well-made Ashlands on the far left of my map regardless, seeing as they're reasonably large enough to stand on their own, but the two tiny blotches of Ashlands to the east of it make little sense isolated as they are.

I actually agree that this issue is overwhelming the rest of the thread, and isn't worth discussing to such lengths. With that said, I do feel I have to point out the discrepancy in you claiming this discussion is unproductive, Sasquatch, and your role in stroking the flames on it further. You say that my proposal has been given "WAY more than enough consideration" yet you seem to be the only one raising a huge outcry over it.

More importantly: it isn't generally seen as proper conduct to outright call a fellow member's ideas "bad." That's a weapon that can easily be turned on its wielder. At a normal time of the day, I might have been bothered to take personal offence at the way you worded your last post, but it's late at night, and I'm honestly too tired at the moment.

If it means anything, I do not feel like I personally treated your ideas in the Almalexia discussion in a poor way. I am genuinely sorry that you feel that your ideas have not been taken into proper consideration here. I could point out that you seem to be doing the same to my proposal now, but... well, I guess I already did.

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This thread has been derailed from its initial purpose, and I will be opening a new one to discuss the identity of the Alt Orethan further. This thread can remain open for debating the border mountain issue, if only because I don't want it to be discussed in the new topic.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Actually, a while back in IRC it was discussed and widely agreed that if tempers flare in a thread it should be locked. Nothing was ever implemented regarding this though, which I am changing here.

I am locking this thread. Yeti, make a new thread specifically for the discussion of the border region along side the other thread you were planning to make already. Please include a summary of the discussion so far. Hopefully everyone will be better able to control themselves next time.