flamebaiting and trolling the review streamlining thread

[sasquatch]

I also have access to the interior thread, Sasquatch. As far as I can tell, you only asked once in the thread itself about the fireplace.

I need someone to check this to tell me if the fireplace is passable. The exterior area has a fire pit and boiling pot where the baskets of ingredients are headed. My plan is that the inside grill is used for cooking the questionable meat away from prying eyes.

Check again, the next is after that, or make the thread public. I'd like an apology from TF and Yeti. This is commonplace slander.

[wollibeebee]

Sassquatch, bro.

Just chill out man.

[sasquatch]

TF

"On the fireplace specifically, you asked about it once. Only once. Don't lie. I don't see it mentioned in the file comments for any of the WIP files, unless you added it into the actual description for the .esp visible only in the CS for the .3 seconds someone looks at the screen while loading files.

Oh wait, I can download all of those files and look to see. Yeah, none of the files in the thread uploaded by you mention the fireplace at all, unless it was in one of the files we cleared out because you cluttered the top with a ludicrous number of WIP files. Still seems like something you would have left in until you got it ok'd though right? So it should be there in the files up til that point if it was ever there in the first place.

One more thing, the interior had only been approved once before, in 2007 as stated previously. Again, don't lie."

-I've already addressed this

Yeti

"I also have access to the interior thread, Sasquatch. As far as I can tell, you only asked once in the thread itself about the fireplace."

This is cool. I am waiting. If I am wrong prove it before you add one line of text insinuating I am a liar in a lengthy discussion to which you have contributed nothing.

[wollibeebee]

U need to b cool man.

2 be fair, http://i.imgur.com/QhgrlQH.png "hopefully that is exceptable" aint realy a question. I mean, I know English isn't you're first language, but you need to use these: ? when asking a question bro.

But that is just my two sense.

[sasquatch]

Okay, I'll concede that is wasn't formatted in a question, but call me a liar again Yeti and derail a different thread. Start a new one dedicated to this topic, "Sasquatch is a bully and lair."

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

I don't think questions about interior claims going unanswered is a problem with the review process, although it certainly is a problem and one that other developers have commented on.

Since the questions are asked whilst the claim is being worked on, anyone can reply to it whether they're a reviewer or not. However, most people don't bother because they assume someone else will. There's no way changes in leadership or structure can change this - only people deciding to help out more.

I never go on the IRC myself, but from what I hear it's a much faster and more reliable way to ask questions and get answers. Perhaps this could be communicated to developers in some way?

This is commonplace slander.

Technically it's libel.

Seriously, Yeti said "As far as I can tell". If he couldn't pick out the second time you inquired about the fireplace even though he was looking for it, then what chance does someone idly reading the forums stand? I can only speak for myself, but generally I only skim the discussions in claims that aren't my own - particularly if they're generic interiors without pretty pictures to look at.

[sasquatch]

The problem here is that the last meaningful post is 6 full pages of text, yet this discussion has now boiled down to something so completely unrelated and minor and completely untrue and actually slanderous that it is an open insult with zero substance or purpose other than causing damage. For this reason I will repost all productive comments below so that this discussion, although it appears to have already come to its conclusion, may continue productively. Yeti or anyone else is welcome to comments of value/substance that relate to the 20.5 pages of text below.


Lead Developer Edit: I have removed the quoted text so that it does not double the length of the page. It is superfluous - Haplo

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Seriously man. You decided to repost 'all the productive comments' and the length of the thread doubled, implying that the vast majority of what's been said is productive.

You originally put up a list of criticisms of the interior review process. TF has said why most of them are non-issues or already in the process of being addressed. It just seems to me like you're repeating your arguments in the hope that someone will agree with you.

My suggestion is that we drop the subject and, if necessary (which I'm not sure it is), come back to it later when everything has calmed down a bit.

[sasquatch]

You are implying I am being deceitful by attempting to lengthen the amount of text? I'm attempting to understand your thinking here in derailing the thread again. To add that I have further arguments I haven't even mentioned because they even if valid they wouldn't be useful. I am leaving this open for anyone who has further comments specifically on the review process and possible improvements that can be made. That shouldn't be such an offensive action.

[sasquatch]

Please, do not lock the thread with an insult.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Nothing I posted was intended as a personal attack on your character. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Seeing as this is obviously important to you, why don't you try to summarise all your problems with the review system into less than 100 words, bearing in mind everything that's already been said in this thread? With all due respect, nobody's going to have enough stamina to read that 9884 word behemoth you just posted.

[sasquatch]

Nothing I posted was intended as a personal attack on your character. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Seeing as this is obviously important to you, why don't you try to summarise all your problems with the review system into less than 100 words, bearing in mind everything that's already been said in this thread? With all due respect, nobody's going to have enough stamina to read that 9884 word behemoth you just posted.

This is said after every insult on these forums and really only insults my intelligence. You cannot comment on my post logically so you are attacking it irrationally. I'd appreciate it if you would leave the thread for productive comments. Doing what you would ask would take a lot of time and likely only be met with more personal attacks. For that reason I am leaving the thread open for those with the fortitude to read the posts made here and the ability to make their own intelligent comments. You can make you can make an actual apology by no longer derailing threads I am active in.

[wollibeebee]

If all your relationships end the same way, and the only thing they all have in common is you, what conclusion can be drawn from that?

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

I thought about replying to you in a PM, but in the spirit of openness I decided to post it here.

You claim I can't comment logically.

How about this:

You decided to repost 'all the productive comments' and the length of the thread doubled, implying that the vast majority of what's been said is productive.

I think this is a pretty logical observation.

Seeing as this is obviously important to you, why don't you try to summarise all your problems with the review system into less than 100 words, bearing in mind everything that's already been said in this thread? With all due respect, nobody's going to have enough stamina to read that 9884 word behemoth you just posted.

I don't understand why you don't think this a sensible thing to do. There's been a lot of long posts in this thread and I'm a little lost as to exactly where we're at.


Addressing some of the other points you make:

Doing what you would ask would take a lot of time and likely only be met with more personal attacks.

I asked you to write 100 words. You wrote 107 in your reply, and that took you ten minutes. It would only take a lot of time if you didn't know what your criticisms were any more.

The "personal attacks" from me aren't directed at your opinions, they're directed at the way you argue those opinions. Posting a massive wall of text doesn't stimulate discussion - it cuts it off. Discussion is much more easily stimulated if there are a few sharp, simple points - just like in your first post. I'm asking for you to do the same sort of thing bearing in mind the counter-arguments that have already been made.

Nothing I posted was intended as a personal attack on your character. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

This is said after every insult on these forums and really only insults my intelligence.

I know you probably don't believe me, but I honestly don't think you're a deceitful person. I was criticising the way you appeared to complain about the thread going off-topic and then suggested that actually most of it was relevant, and also by the really unhelpful copy-and-paste of most of the thread. Criticising what you do rather than who you are. To my mind the former is acceptable in a discussion of this sort, the latter less so. You may disagree.


On a final note:

I don't think questions about interior claims going unanswered is a problem with the review process, although it certainly is a problem and one that other developers have commented on.

Since the questions are asked whilst the claim is being worked on, anyone can reply to it whether they're a reviewer or not. However, most people don't bother because they assume someone else will. There's no way changes in leadership or structure can change this - only people deciding to help out more.

I never go on the IRC myself, but from what I hear it's a much faster and more reliable way to ask questions and get answers. Perhaps this could be communicated to developers in some way?

This is commonplace slander.

Technically it's libel.

Seriously, Yeti said "As far as I can tell". If he couldn't pick out the second time you inquired about the fireplace even though he was looking for it, then what chance does someone idly reading the forums stand? I can only speak for myself, but generally I only skim the discussions in claims that aren't my own - particularly if they're generic interiors without pretty pictures to look at.

You never acknowledged this post at all. I know that it has annoyed you in the past when someone failed to acknowledge a post you had made in a thread.

And before you claim it isn't relevant, it is to do with the second point on your original list:

-lack of early input leads to greater problems after work has been completed

[sasquatch]

If all your relationships end the same way, and the only thing they all have in common is you, what conclusion can be drawn from that?

Yeti is in every problematic thread and majority of members here are unable to make rational comments or responses. The comments here were intended to provoke a hostile response to shutdown the thread. People here seem to think derailing and shutting down potentially beneficial threads is acceptable but instead it is tyrannical and ignorant.

This thread is continuing to be derailed as every other thread with productive ideas I have presented has been. Now you expect it to be locked so and this would be satisfying for you?

[sasquatch]

I thought about replying to you in a PM, but in the spirit of openness I decided to post it here.

You claim I can't comment logically.

How about this:

You decided to repost 'all the productive comments' and the length of the thread doubled, implying that the vast majority of what's been said is productive.

I think this is a pretty logical observation.

Seeing as this is obviously important to you, why don't you try to summarise all your problems with the review system into less than 100 words, bearing in mind everything that's already been said in this thread? With all due respect, nobody's going to have enough stamina to read that 9884 word behemoth you just posted.

I don't understand why you don't think this a sensible thing to do. There's been a lot of long posts in this thread and I'm a little lost as to exactly where we're at.


Addressing some of the other points you make:

Doing what you would ask would take a lot of time and likely only be met with more personal attacks.

I asked you to write 100 words. You wrote 107 in your reply, and that took you ten minutes. It would only take a lot of time if you didn't know what your criticisms were any more.

The "personal attacks" from me aren't directed at your opinions, they're directed at the way you argue those opinions. Posting a massive wall of text doesn't stimulate discussion - it cuts it off. Discussion is much more easily stimulated if there are a few sharp, simple points - just like in your first post. I'm asking for you to do the same sort of thing bearing in mind the counter-arguments that have already been made.

Nothing I posted was intended as a personal attack on your character. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

This is said after every insult on these forums and really only insults my intelligence.

I know you probably don't believe me, but I honestly don't think you're a deceitful person. I was criticising the way you appeared to complain about the thread going off-topic and then suggested that actually most of it was relevant, and also by the really unhelpful copy-and-paste of most of the thread. Criticising what you do rather than who you are. To my mind the former is acceptable in a discussion of this sort, the latter less so. You may disagree.


On a final note:

I don't think questions about interior claims going unanswered is a problem with the review process, although it certainly is a problem and one that other developers have commented on.

Since the questions are asked whilst the claim is being worked on, anyone can reply to it whether they're a reviewer or not. However, most people don't bother because they assume someone else will. There's no way changes in leadership or structure can change this - only people deciding to help out more.

I never go on the IRC myself, but from what I hear it's a much faster and more reliable way to ask questions and get answers. Perhaps this could be communicated to developers in some way?

This is commonplace slander.

Technically it's libel.

Seriously, Yeti said "As far as I can tell". If he couldn't pick out the second time you inquired about the fireplace even though he was looking for it, then what chance does someone idly reading the forums stand? I can only speak for myself, but generally I only skim the discussions in claims that aren't my own - particularly if they're generic interiors without pretty pictures to look at.

You never acknowledged this post at all. I know that it has annoyed you in the past when someone failed to acknowledge a post you had made in a thread.

And before you claim it isn't relevant, it is to do with the second point on your original list:

-lack of early input leads to greater problems after work has been completed

That is because it is not on topic and you lie when you offer false apologies. The vast majority of this is not on topic. Heres what I'll do for you. A personal favor:

http://imgur.com/BFK5W72

and in large format:
http://imgur.com/qN7M2Dl

and close up:
http://imgur.com/YrsqMAG

[wollibeebee]

If all your relationships end the same way, and the only thing they all have in common is you, what conclusion can be drawn from that?

Yeti is in every problematic thread and majority of members here are unable to make rational comments or responses. The comments here were intended to provoke a hostile response to shutdown the thread. People here seem to think derailing and shutting down potentially beneficial threads is acceptable but instead it is tyrannical and ignorant.

This thread is continuing to be derailed as every other thread with productive ideas I have presented has been. Now you expect it to be locked so and this would be satisfying for you?

Time to lay down the slander

[sasquatch]

It is hard for me to believe that of all the time and all the ideas I posted in an attempt improve our review process this is what so much effort has come to. I don't believe there is not a single idea I posted of value. If it isnt there its because you cant appreciate it.

Don't post here again.

[Massalinie]

Look Sasq, you keep complaining that your threads keep getting locked but just LOOK at this thread! I am not an active member and I haven't been following this closely but I have read a decent bit of it and all I see from an outside perspective is childish accusations of who said what how many times and who's insulting who. Adults do not speak this way to each other.

Two simple facts you need to accept.

1) You cannot just walk into a project, tell everyone there how YOU want it to be and expect them to just say "Yes! You're so right, we've been wrong all this time!" That's just not realistic. People on the whole are adverse to change, that's why it's so difficult to make changes come about. But throwing a temper tantrum every time someone disagrees with you is what keeps putting your threads on this downwards spiral towards becoming locked. Because by the time it's degraded to the point of "who started it" it's loooong past time to move on.

2) Rome wasn't built in a day. This is and always has been a free time project. The people here do it for fun! And as much as there are obligations, it deserves to remain fun. Reviewers have lives just as much as any other modder and are free to work if and when they WANT to. This means the going is slow sometimes. But listen, just because your claim is reviewed doesn't mean it's getting merged any time soon anyway so there really is no great rush to get it through. The way I see it, most of your problems are not solvable but you could start working on helping by taking the reviewer test, as has been suggested, and participating in that capacity.

Sasquatch you can't tell people where they can and cannot post. You presented your ideas and they were rebutted. Things were good up until this point. A reasonable person would read them and attempt to make equally intelligent responses contributing to a conversation (this usually takes the form of a compromise).

You've been having a lot of trouble here I've heard, and you seriously need to take the most frequent piece of advice I see coming at you: Calm down. Re-posting the entire thread is not a reasonable way to act, in any circumstances. Actions like these are the reason people are responding the way they are. Nobody here started off against you and they will still be on your side if you let them. Stop assuming people are trying to bring you down and you'll begin to resolve issues in a way which precludes these kinds of endings.

On the issue of questions going unanswered, nobody here is required to read every post that is made; I personally never read a claim that I wasn't designing, considering or reviewing. The fact that nobody answered your question means only that nobody read it who knew the answer. It's not the project's fault that happened. In my opinion, it is your responsibility as the claimant to seek out answers elsewhere. Private messaging would have been the next logical step, on your part. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with what you did, just leave it there with a note for reviewing. This small, entirely fixable issue has escalated beyond sanity.

[wollibeebee]

What the CHIM did you just CHIMing say about me, you little mod-user? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my showcase in the TR Forums, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Silgrad Tower, and I have over 300 confirmed claims. I am trained in petty arguements and I’m the top modder in the entire world. You are nothing to me but just another Nifskope-less newb. I will wipe you out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on Mundus, mark my Thu'um. You think you can get away with saying that poop to me over the Internet? Think again, Guar Terd. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of top modders across the Province mods and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, N'wah. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my inflated ego. Not only am I extensively trained in arrogance, but I have access to the entire arsenal of witty come-backs and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass out of lore, you little outlander.

[sasquatch]

Your comments are an insult to TF and myself and are not worthy of being on this thread or these forums. You need to log off and reasses not only your malicious comments but your life. If you take this beyond the forum I will be contacting the police.

In response to Massey, I think you are right. My thought was that people here were reasonable to make intelligent beneficial comments. Yeti, TDF, and wolli have proved me wrong.

[Massalinie]

Your comments are an insult to TF and myself and are not worthy of being on this thread or these forums. You need to log off and reasses not only your malicious comments but your life. If you take this beyond the forum I will be contacting the police.

I'm not sure who you're talking to but you're only making a fool out of yourself at this point (unless you're joking too, I know Wolli sure was. If you didn't get it I recommend, [url]http://www.knowyourmeme.com[/url])

If you seriously do call the police PLEASE record and YouTube it. I would love to listen! XD

[Edit] Everything I said was directed towards you, Sasquatch. I think you know that. [/Edit]

[sasquatch]

Will do.. but no I'm not making a fool of myself this project is making a mockery of itself it. It is unfortunately now clear a rational conversion is not possible in threads accessible be these developers. It is even more unfortunate one of them is in a position of leadership.

As there are likely few sane, reasonable and on-topic comments to be added here, I am with much regret requesting that this thread be locked.

[Massalinie]

[wollibeebee]

[sasquatch]

^this is the level of intelligence with which my points were, rebuttled. THEY WERE NOT APPROPRIATELY ADDRESSED I LET IT GO BECAUSE GOOD IDEAS GO NOWHERE HERE.

[Gnomey]

I think it is safe to assume wollibeebee's earlier comment was not intended to be serious. Text communication over the internet can lead to a lot of misunderstandings. One reader might find sarcasm where none was intended, another might miss it where it was intended. Humour can fly over people's heads. Hyperbole can be taken at face value. An innocuous comment can come off as an ad hominem attack. I think the problem is only exacerbated by forums often having diverse members with diverse backgrounds, cultures, walks of life and personalities, not to mention diverse primary languages.

You read Yeti's post as accusing you of lying. I read Yeti's post as stating that you were mistaken. There is a fine distinction there, and really both readings could be legitimate. I, in my assessment of Yeti, am confident in my reading of his post, while you, in your assessment of Yeti, appear to be confident in yours.
However, I am concerned that you do not exercise the benefit of the doubt as often as is required for a thread to develop smoothly. From my point of view, you have appeared to take certain comments in the worst possible way they could be taken, and have denied several attempts to convince you that your reading of those comments was overly negative.
Again, from my point of view your reaction to comments has often been overly negative. But I concede that I might be wrong. In the end, same as you, I only know TR members through the internet, and perhaps my assessment of many of them is overly rosy while yours is more accurate.
I have found, however, that by doing my utmost to give members the benefit of the doubt things have run smoothly and I have been able to partake in lengthy discussions without the discussion souring. There have been several times where I have found it hard not to take a comment personally, but my experience has so far been that things ran more smoothly when I didn't take comments personally, even -- or rather especially -- if they were in fact intended to be personal.
I will even go further than that and say that, especially in hindsight, most of the comments I viewed as aggressive only appeared so to me in the heat of the moment, as a projection of my own frustration. Again, that is from my perspective.

Consider that Yeti, from the start, has not been dismissive of your viewpoint, but instead has simply disagreed with it. That rather than shooting down your ideas and stifling discussion, he has simply given his opinion on them, actually contributing to the discussion by doing so.
If you cannot get around viewing Yeti's posts as personal attacks directed at your person, I really suggest you take it to PMs. If Yeti really is a member who so easily disregards constructive discussion and other members, replying to him in a thread wouldn't serve anyone any good anyway.
From my point of view, however, the root of your disagreements with Yeti in particular and with several members and aspects of this project lie largely in misunderstandings rather than malice. Misunderstandings which threaten to become prejudices on both sides. In the end, while still not an ideal format for discussion, I think PMs might be better suited for working out the problems that currently undeniably exist, and that those problems probably really have to be sorted out before a reasonable discussion can be had that does not appear to spin off topic roughly in the direction of undeniable flaming.