Inlet Bog and ash swamps...
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Ironed Maidens
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Inlet Bog and ash swamps...
Are the ash swamps part of the Inlet Bog that has come up in recent discussion?
No. The Ash Swamp is a unique region in Velothis which (like Inlet Bog) awaits a better name. You'll find several maps showing its position [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24296&highlight=ash+swamp]in this thread[/url]*, its old (shared) concept thread [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22547]here[/url] and a discussion of its fauna [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24290&highlight=ash+swamp]here[/url]. Most of the region can be visited [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?q=content/downloads]in TR's last alpha release[/url].
*It is labelled (J) in the first map and is called Taahn Mur in the second. I'm not sure whether Taahn Mur is going to stick, though.
*It is labelled (J) in the first map and is called Taahn Mur in the second. I'm not sure whether Taahn Mur is going to stick, though.
Last edited by Gnomey on Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ironed Maidens
- Developer
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:03 pm
Cool, I've got a synopsis written up for general ideas/planning of the ash swamp; has there been any discussion of axing it at all like the Inlet Bog? Either way, I do wish to post some of my own ideas on the ash swamps and what to do with them, just a general guideline of what can be done with them if there's been any stipulation.
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Ironed Maidens
- Developer
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:03 pm
Over-view of the Ash Swamp.
So I know there's been a bit of a debate over what to do with the swamps, as well as the Inlet Bog, or what would become of it. While all understandably needing a lot of consideration, I have followed the cases both for and against any kind of radical face-lift, and this is my contribution to it all. Take this with an ounce of open-mindedness as this is speculation in regards to how I would envision this region myself personally. So the first main question I bring up is this: how should the region look?
Analysis: Would it make 'sense' to have an ashy swamp on the mainland?
Depiction: I think a little too much thought is going into this kind of logic. It's nearly secular. While I understand a believable world needs to be painted to keep in touch with the vanilla Morrowind feel, I also think artistic license is used to paint a vivid palette that treads a line between 'fantasy' and 'I wish it were real'. What I mean by this is that you could nit-pick things all day as to why it may or may not make sense for there to be a giant mountainous crater on the center of an island whose eruption caused the island itself to form anyway. But it's ok, because it's logic that applies itself and lends itself to a very particular image of an isolated place full of wonder and despair. Now, all I ask is, WHY would we want the mainland to differ any? This is a region that is in the heart of the Indoril itself, the House of Houses; who is going to offer any better type of malefic backdrop than the True House of Mourning? None, I would parse to say.
I think an explanation is easily achievable by common way of giving a good reason for things to be as such. A swamp full of ash is easily symbolic, if not anything else. A wound-scar on the land that is so full of mysticism and occultism anyway is then easily assimilated into the player's mind, given one particular rule is followed: it's done right. To what end this may mean is another question all-in-all, but it must be believed to be on the basis of trusting in your own strengths as game creators to bring this all to fruition. The swamp can be gray and dreary and cold and brooding, and I assure you so long as an overall idea for the reason why it is so is in place, then it is ok to go ahead and reshape and rebuild first with that foundation was laid out, and then fine-tune the lore details later.
Analysis: What should be done with the region?
Depiction: I have gone ahead and given myself some weird type of clearance to build upon the answer itself. Further-more down, I will go ahead and let out my plan for this place. But first, as a preemptive push; please do understand and acknowledge the truth behind my long-winded response to this debacle...I wish only to fully utilize what potential is available to us at the present.
The Indoril Swamp-Seers, Or As They Would Be Called, The Ash Adepts
Let me describe a vision I have to you: A place taken over by ash with consistently cloudy weather. A place of no haven, even within the modest shacks that outline the border region. But as you delve deeper into the heart of the region, you begin to see something..strange. Or; perhaps something intriguing. There seems to be a type of culture in the ash swamps here, in the middle of the pools of muck, and the gray flora, and the ash-webbed abodes. The Ash Adepts. A small outcast clan, or perhaps multiple clans, who are strangely akin to the nomadic Ashlanders on Vvardenfell. But also different in a sense that they are no so nomadic, and do not live within yurts, and herd insects, and follow Old Ways. They live within hollowed out apocryphal type mushrooms, or muck sponge type plants that are very large, gray, ashy, and yet...welcoming to the lost outlander. Safe from the wild beasts that roam the swamps foraging for meals in daylight, and the unspeakable horrors that lurk beneath the swamp shallows or in the old tombs or perhaps lie in wait under the large web-ridden mushroom patches.
These peoples, though mysterious, have a similar hierarchy to the Ashlanders. Commoners who believe in a systematic lifestyle of The Hunt, and the religious leaders above them who dwell in the most ornate of the mushroom houses. These leaders, hermetic in nature, are ones who follow the decrepit followings of Lord Nerevar and his Father of Fathers, Vhek, in a way that is new and engaging to the player. They believe that these ashy swamps they live within are critical to the Path of Six, the Tendons of Eight, the Spokes of Spikes, the Whirling School, and even a new a well-hidden art of Sex and Death called the Swamp-Face of Vivec. Much like Sweepers in the Halls, these people are dedicated to living a life of cleansing the now-soiled land that Morrowind has become, by way of Dust Adept disciplines and virtuous habits. Now, would new assets need to be created for this to be feasible? Yes. But it would be well worth it in the end, as it would be the mainland equivalent of the Ashlands and Ashlanders, with the ability to tie in any numerous types of quests and lore and new creatures and ingredients and books and...well, that possibility is anywhere and everywhere as it is, but this is just my own ramblings, as I stated. They would be a hearty and rugged type of people as well, given the circumstances of where they live, and it would ooze from their way of life that they believe they were chosen to live amongst the swamps as a type of test, or reward.
Ideas of Culture
“And to what do we owe this honor, Nerevarine?â€Â
There is a sense of strange honor among these people, but only if the player has taken the title of Nerevarine and been Proclaimed so by Vivec. Other than that, you can imagine them to be just as polite as any Ashlanders, but with the added effect of being able to do standard/minimal bartering or finding a place to sleep for the night. Types of décor would involve various flora and fauna, generous use of colored candles, and banners/books/symbols of faith. While not neanderthals inherently, they still do use religion as a way of life, as do most other cultures. But since they are more isolated, the religion tends to be a bit wackier/more fanatical while still seeming understandably so. Pots, cups, plates, cutlery, pillows, beds, chairs, rugs, tapestries, fabrics, etc etc all would be nearly primitive but also fitting to the surroundings.
Fauna would consist of very strange and hostile creatures. Perhaps a subject best touched by someone else who can accurately depict the type of things that would live in such a wild place.
Flora, like I stated, would be gray for the most part, with different types of mushrooms and flowers that grow and look almost like predatory creatures. Swamps themselves would be ashy and mucky. Generally gloomy atmosphere. Dark colors that seem to warn the player away.
The outler edges of the swamps would be smaller normal shack villages with some containing an Indoril manor or a larger type of house to regulate trade and oversee religious things like days of prayer or festivals.
I also think it would be worth mentioning that I have taken the liberty to write my own slice of text as a teaser to show what kind of place and culture I have in mind.
The Swamp-Face of Vhek
Though settled peoples would still think us to be simple, or even dull, we are happy to abide by the lords of trade-reasoning, if only to show persistence in the teachings of the Noble of The House of Coda; Savior Nerevar. A lesson that resonates with our clan is one of such fortitude and suspecting lattice within the minds of greedy men and expanding empires. Scouts of Telvanni have come to us before, for use of our most prized warriors' carcasses for their mythopoeic bindings and pesudo-tonal architectures, which always seem to deteriorate from the bottom up when the stanzas fall ill to too little faith. They spoke of many men clad in golden dragon scales tilling the lands near us, and they would laugh as they threw gold pieces at us in exchange for life-forces of our guardians.
What they did with them, I have been told. I fear not for the souls of our kin, but for the minds of the Telvanni themselves. They do not know in which pools of myth they tread. On many occasions we could invade the smaller settlements near us and engulf and consume and exhume much like the rest who surround us, but instead we show the Swamp-Face in holding our ground. In being One with the Swamps, the bogs, the mud and the rains that swallow the various bug nests and float them down-river. This excerpt comes from the mouths of Adepts before me, and it was given to them in beryllium-lined parchments by Adepts before them, and some may claim that these teachings were given originally to our Fathers by the hand of Nerevar himself, while writing in the fountains of Her palace:
The veins of murky water, the capillaries of soot, the arteries of ash, they all flow in and out of the Swamps. The plateaus of Shokali rise above the clouds and wisps of ash, and from upon the crags lurch the Skylamps and sky warriors. A single blade of brown grass sprouts from a crack in the surface of a large slab of clay. Lord Indoral sat, his eyes fixated upon the grass, when a sigh was let out from the sky. Without turning around he spoke, “Should you not be Bending?â€Â
“I am, and within the asymmetrical lines upon lines I have seen an anomaly.†A voice boomed.
“I seek no counsel at this time. I am simply surveying. How could one build upon this?†Nerevar said as he picked the single blade from its rooted spot with two fingers.
“Much like the anomaly I am pursuing, we both have the same answer.†A single ray of light began to emerge from behind the gray veil of clouds that hung in the sky with such splendor.
“And your question, then?†Lord Nerevar piqued, now looking behind him.
“Another day. Perhaps when you seek counsel. I have come here to try and let you know of a different path I have seen for you though, just as a warning, or a waning. The Mourning House looks into this land for more than just muck. Perhaps there is a dwelling built here already. Perhaps the swamp hides it. I need of you to look and see. If we can find, then it can be shown that what was once lost is now in possession.†Vivec was cloaked in an atlas of smoke and celestial ice; Nerevar looked upon it with eyes agape.
“I cannot look further for I have looked, and searched, and seared, and scorched, and scoured. All there is here is legions from within the Mire and corners of the House. Can you not sense champions of the Scourge? Surely you can.†Nerevar stood up and inched to the ledge of the plateau, gazing out now.
“I have been able to sense many sources of solitude, sentimental sighs, and solace in your own sombre art for a time now. Sensing is something one does from birth. But this place is different from others. This is where a legacy is lost and a fate is found.†Vivec took a hand full of the clay that puddled around in one hand and reached into his disguise with the other, emerging it with a type of shimmering orb, and married the two beneath his waist.
“Difference is a matter of opinion.†Nerevar said as the sun began setting on the swamps, a sort of mellow hue taking over the horizon. Steam from the various molten pits and coves of muck turned a sulfuric shade and whooshed freely into the air, dissipating after getting a few yards away from the bubbling, slimy canvas from which they emerged.
“Opinions are a different matter all together,†Vivec hummed as he extended his arms forward, holding the mixture, finally in matrimony. His eyes seemed almost bequeathed; alms of his Mastery ebbed through the swamplands in harmony with the ash and the Twilight. Nerevar looked upon the relic; a mask had taken form. No symphonies, no pantheons of sacred messengers to bring it forth, no ruckus made of its presence; simply a gift from mentor to pupil. Seven Shadowed Hands seemed to reach forth from Vivec's own, presenting the item to the General.
“With this, you may see the Truth of what is secluding from the light, from the darkness, from the prevalence of Her Mercy, His Insight, and my own Perineum. Many things lie in wait for us, some for the forgotten in time. Some...for the exhaled priests, some for the laymen and the commoners. But some things...they lie in wait for the Righteous. Which path would you chose to have burned beyond you, Nerevar?†Vivec's words pushed forth as night descended upon them both, the clicking of swamp warriors rising from beyond the gorges that surrounded the plateau.
“I thank you for the shift; the transformation,†Nerevar said as he knelt before Vivec, “I wish for you to adorn it with the vestiges of Veloth, anon VELS. Bite into the mire of this pestilence and cleanse the crops of these twisted, defiled demons which inhabit this land. Through Your Eyes I shall find the Tower of this land; sinking and decaying. And with your Love I will make sure it inherits the traits of your secrecy.â€Â
Vivec placed the mask upon Nerevar, and then disbursed into the Arubis once again to leave his protege in meditation for six days, still as stone, upon the flat top of the plateau. After the holy hibernation, he let out a breath that carried plumes of sky warriors out to the winds, and the ground began to heave in such a way that many tension cracks began to form around all manners of the swamps. It is said that to this day the cracks remain visible, tracing a pattern of such insight and tenure of knowledge through the land. Nerevar opened his eyes and smiled as he took off to the west, his feet precariously touching the soil and soot and slime and sands strewn through the landscape. He was clad in nothing but a robe made of the roots, gnarled and vine-laced as they were, which grew from the base of the mucosal pods that dotted the shores of mud, and it began to grow from it beautiful flowers that seeped with ash and poisonous waters. The mask made the bogs swell and run rapidly, overtaking the land, and it also gave Nerevar visions of what was hidden deep within the region; sealed away from time and mer.
He reached his destination, the central bog, and it trembled at the presence of the mask and the warlord. “I see now.†He smiled, and he dipped a finger into the ash that caked the surface. He brought it to his forehead and upon it he drew a circle with a dot in the center, conscripting the mask, proclaiming, “This is truly a remarkable land. A beautiful land. A ravenous junction, consuming all Glory from PADHOME and convalescing it as it is wounded for now from the Red Dragon, and from the drums of epochs eaten before. I wonder, what remnants of our previous kalpas float through Aether now, like ash of woe floats amongst your many bodies.â€Â
The visage of several of Our ancestors appeared before Nerevar. The first of our brethren spoke in a just voice, appealing to all the virtues we confide in; accepting of obedience from marital ties unbroken from ages and eras before. He bid for our Nerevar to build a tower in resemblance to Adamantine Tower, but less grand and more accustomed to housing a clan of mer who were star-sworn from birth to appease the land, to cultivate it in ways that none else knew how, and to allow the Swamp-Seers to patrol the wastes that were once barren and uninhabitable and allow us all to gather and reconcile within the many teachings of Nerevar.
What remains of the mask that began the embarkation of our peoples is within that same tower, in the highest chamber so that it may always look out upon the blessed lands we dwell in, and so it may always protect us and our many Sal-Edtta warriors, and so it may beckon forth our brothers from Houses Mora, Ra'Athim, Retheran, Sul, Oroynyon, and Drenim, so they can bask in the harmonizing swamps much like we do, and keep our land safe from the mercenaries of this realm and others beyond us.
We show the Swamp-Face in our acceptance of knowing that we do not know everything, yet we have the veracity to accept our humility and evolve from it.
Final Thoughts
What I am supposing is a merge of the Inlet Bog to be a larger part of the ash swamps we have already. This would require a radical redo of the current area, and new meshes, and perhaps even new plans with what to include in the area in regards to civilizations and quests, but do bear in mind that this is also an invitation to perhaps a merging of some of the ideas that would be able to stem from this type of redo of the area. Imagine a large gash on the face of Morrowind, which then feeds into he jungles of Argonia, and would have profound effect on the Dres house as well, in regards to the type of climates they'd be suited to and it would also allow for a lot more creative exploration of not only the player, but of us ourselves as a team of people who have already sacrificed so much, and made so much progress in such a wild world like Tamriel.
So I know there's been a bit of a debate over what to do with the swamps, as well as the Inlet Bog, or what would become of it. While all understandably needing a lot of consideration, I have followed the cases both for and against any kind of radical face-lift, and this is my contribution to it all. Take this with an ounce of open-mindedness as this is speculation in regards to how I would envision this region myself personally. So the first main question I bring up is this: how should the region look?
Analysis: Would it make 'sense' to have an ashy swamp on the mainland?
Depiction: I think a little too much thought is going into this kind of logic. It's nearly secular. While I understand a believable world needs to be painted to keep in touch with the vanilla Morrowind feel, I also think artistic license is used to paint a vivid palette that treads a line between 'fantasy' and 'I wish it were real'. What I mean by this is that you could nit-pick things all day as to why it may or may not make sense for there to be a giant mountainous crater on the center of an island whose eruption caused the island itself to form anyway. But it's ok, because it's logic that applies itself and lends itself to a very particular image of an isolated place full of wonder and despair. Now, all I ask is, WHY would we want the mainland to differ any? This is a region that is in the heart of the Indoril itself, the House of Houses; who is going to offer any better type of malefic backdrop than the True House of Mourning? None, I would parse to say.
I think an explanation is easily achievable by common way of giving a good reason for things to be as such. A swamp full of ash is easily symbolic, if not anything else. A wound-scar on the land that is so full of mysticism and occultism anyway is then easily assimilated into the player's mind, given one particular rule is followed: it's done right. To what end this may mean is another question all-in-all, but it must be believed to be on the basis of trusting in your own strengths as game creators to bring this all to fruition. The swamp can be gray and dreary and cold and brooding, and I assure you so long as an overall idea for the reason why it is so is in place, then it is ok to go ahead and reshape and rebuild first with that foundation was laid out, and then fine-tune the lore details later.
Analysis: What should be done with the region?
Depiction: I have gone ahead and given myself some weird type of clearance to build upon the answer itself. Further-more down, I will go ahead and let out my plan for this place. But first, as a preemptive push; please do understand and acknowledge the truth behind my long-winded response to this debacle...I wish only to fully utilize what potential is available to us at the present.
The Indoril Swamp-Seers, Or As They Would Be Called, The Ash Adepts
Let me describe a vision I have to you: A place taken over by ash with consistently cloudy weather. A place of no haven, even within the modest shacks that outline the border region. But as you delve deeper into the heart of the region, you begin to see something..strange. Or; perhaps something intriguing. There seems to be a type of culture in the ash swamps here, in the middle of the pools of muck, and the gray flora, and the ash-webbed abodes. The Ash Adepts. A small outcast clan, or perhaps multiple clans, who are strangely akin to the nomadic Ashlanders on Vvardenfell. But also different in a sense that they are no so nomadic, and do not live within yurts, and herd insects, and follow Old Ways. They live within hollowed out apocryphal type mushrooms, or muck sponge type plants that are very large, gray, ashy, and yet...welcoming to the lost outlander. Safe from the wild beasts that roam the swamps foraging for meals in daylight, and the unspeakable horrors that lurk beneath the swamp shallows or in the old tombs or perhaps lie in wait under the large web-ridden mushroom patches.
These peoples, though mysterious, have a similar hierarchy to the Ashlanders. Commoners who believe in a systematic lifestyle of The Hunt, and the religious leaders above them who dwell in the most ornate of the mushroom houses. These leaders, hermetic in nature, are ones who follow the decrepit followings of Lord Nerevar and his Father of Fathers, Vhek, in a way that is new and engaging to the player. They believe that these ashy swamps they live within are critical to the Path of Six, the Tendons of Eight, the Spokes of Spikes, the Whirling School, and even a new a well-hidden art of Sex and Death called the Swamp-Face of Vivec. Much like Sweepers in the Halls, these people are dedicated to living a life of cleansing the now-soiled land that Morrowind has become, by way of Dust Adept disciplines and virtuous habits. Now, would new assets need to be created for this to be feasible? Yes. But it would be well worth it in the end, as it would be the mainland equivalent of the Ashlands and Ashlanders, with the ability to tie in any numerous types of quests and lore and new creatures and ingredients and books and...well, that possibility is anywhere and everywhere as it is, but this is just my own ramblings, as I stated. They would be a hearty and rugged type of people as well, given the circumstances of where they live, and it would ooze from their way of life that they believe they were chosen to live amongst the swamps as a type of test, or reward.
Ideas of Culture
“And to what do we owe this honor, Nerevarine?â€Â
There is a sense of strange honor among these people, but only if the player has taken the title of Nerevarine and been Proclaimed so by Vivec. Other than that, you can imagine them to be just as polite as any Ashlanders, but with the added effect of being able to do standard/minimal bartering or finding a place to sleep for the night. Types of décor would involve various flora and fauna, generous use of colored candles, and banners/books/symbols of faith. While not neanderthals inherently, they still do use religion as a way of life, as do most other cultures. But since they are more isolated, the religion tends to be a bit wackier/more fanatical while still seeming understandably so. Pots, cups, plates, cutlery, pillows, beds, chairs, rugs, tapestries, fabrics, etc etc all would be nearly primitive but also fitting to the surroundings.
Fauna would consist of very strange and hostile creatures. Perhaps a subject best touched by someone else who can accurately depict the type of things that would live in such a wild place.
Flora, like I stated, would be gray for the most part, with different types of mushrooms and flowers that grow and look almost like predatory creatures. Swamps themselves would be ashy and mucky. Generally gloomy atmosphere. Dark colors that seem to warn the player away.
The outler edges of the swamps would be smaller normal shack villages with some containing an Indoril manor or a larger type of house to regulate trade and oversee religious things like days of prayer or festivals.
I also think it would be worth mentioning that I have taken the liberty to write my own slice of text as a teaser to show what kind of place and culture I have in mind.
The Swamp-Face of Vhek
Though settled peoples would still think us to be simple, or even dull, we are happy to abide by the lords of trade-reasoning, if only to show persistence in the teachings of the Noble of The House of Coda; Savior Nerevar. A lesson that resonates with our clan is one of such fortitude and suspecting lattice within the minds of greedy men and expanding empires. Scouts of Telvanni have come to us before, for use of our most prized warriors' carcasses for their mythopoeic bindings and pesudo-tonal architectures, which always seem to deteriorate from the bottom up when the stanzas fall ill to too little faith. They spoke of many men clad in golden dragon scales tilling the lands near us, and they would laugh as they threw gold pieces at us in exchange for life-forces of our guardians.
What they did with them, I have been told. I fear not for the souls of our kin, but for the minds of the Telvanni themselves. They do not know in which pools of myth they tread. On many occasions we could invade the smaller settlements near us and engulf and consume and exhume much like the rest who surround us, but instead we show the Swamp-Face in holding our ground. In being One with the Swamps, the bogs, the mud and the rains that swallow the various bug nests and float them down-river. This excerpt comes from the mouths of Adepts before me, and it was given to them in beryllium-lined parchments by Adepts before them, and some may claim that these teachings were given originally to our Fathers by the hand of Nerevar himself, while writing in the fountains of Her palace:
The veins of murky water, the capillaries of soot, the arteries of ash, they all flow in and out of the Swamps. The plateaus of Shokali rise above the clouds and wisps of ash, and from upon the crags lurch the Skylamps and sky warriors. A single blade of brown grass sprouts from a crack in the surface of a large slab of clay. Lord Indoral sat, his eyes fixated upon the grass, when a sigh was let out from the sky. Without turning around he spoke, “Should you not be Bending?â€Â
“I am, and within the asymmetrical lines upon lines I have seen an anomaly.†A voice boomed.
“I seek no counsel at this time. I am simply surveying. How could one build upon this?†Nerevar said as he picked the single blade from its rooted spot with two fingers.
“Much like the anomaly I am pursuing, we both have the same answer.†A single ray of light began to emerge from behind the gray veil of clouds that hung in the sky with such splendor.
“And your question, then?†Lord Nerevar piqued, now looking behind him.
“Another day. Perhaps when you seek counsel. I have come here to try and let you know of a different path I have seen for you though, just as a warning, or a waning. The Mourning House looks into this land for more than just muck. Perhaps there is a dwelling built here already. Perhaps the swamp hides it. I need of you to look and see. If we can find, then it can be shown that what was once lost is now in possession.†Vivec was cloaked in an atlas of smoke and celestial ice; Nerevar looked upon it with eyes agape.
“I cannot look further for I have looked, and searched, and seared, and scorched, and scoured. All there is here is legions from within the Mire and corners of the House. Can you not sense champions of the Scourge? Surely you can.†Nerevar stood up and inched to the ledge of the plateau, gazing out now.
“I have been able to sense many sources of solitude, sentimental sighs, and solace in your own sombre art for a time now. Sensing is something one does from birth. But this place is different from others. This is where a legacy is lost and a fate is found.†Vivec took a hand full of the clay that puddled around in one hand and reached into his disguise with the other, emerging it with a type of shimmering orb, and married the two beneath his waist.
“Difference is a matter of opinion.†Nerevar said as the sun began setting on the swamps, a sort of mellow hue taking over the horizon. Steam from the various molten pits and coves of muck turned a sulfuric shade and whooshed freely into the air, dissipating after getting a few yards away from the bubbling, slimy canvas from which they emerged.
“Opinions are a different matter all together,†Vivec hummed as he extended his arms forward, holding the mixture, finally in matrimony. His eyes seemed almost bequeathed; alms of his Mastery ebbed through the swamplands in harmony with the ash and the Twilight. Nerevar looked upon the relic; a mask had taken form. No symphonies, no pantheons of sacred messengers to bring it forth, no ruckus made of its presence; simply a gift from mentor to pupil. Seven Shadowed Hands seemed to reach forth from Vivec's own, presenting the item to the General.
“With this, you may see the Truth of what is secluding from the light, from the darkness, from the prevalence of Her Mercy, His Insight, and my own Perineum. Many things lie in wait for us, some for the forgotten in time. Some...for the exhaled priests, some for the laymen and the commoners. But some things...they lie in wait for the Righteous. Which path would you chose to have burned beyond you, Nerevar?†Vivec's words pushed forth as night descended upon them both, the clicking of swamp warriors rising from beyond the gorges that surrounded the plateau.
“I thank you for the shift; the transformation,†Nerevar said as he knelt before Vivec, “I wish for you to adorn it with the vestiges of Veloth, anon VELS. Bite into the mire of this pestilence and cleanse the crops of these twisted, defiled demons which inhabit this land. Through Your Eyes I shall find the Tower of this land; sinking and decaying. And with your Love I will make sure it inherits the traits of your secrecy.â€Â
Vivec placed the mask upon Nerevar, and then disbursed into the Arubis once again to leave his protege in meditation for six days, still as stone, upon the flat top of the plateau. After the holy hibernation, he let out a breath that carried plumes of sky warriors out to the winds, and the ground began to heave in such a way that many tension cracks began to form around all manners of the swamps. It is said that to this day the cracks remain visible, tracing a pattern of such insight and tenure of knowledge through the land. Nerevar opened his eyes and smiled as he took off to the west, his feet precariously touching the soil and soot and slime and sands strewn through the landscape. He was clad in nothing but a robe made of the roots, gnarled and vine-laced as they were, which grew from the base of the mucosal pods that dotted the shores of mud, and it began to grow from it beautiful flowers that seeped with ash and poisonous waters. The mask made the bogs swell and run rapidly, overtaking the land, and it also gave Nerevar visions of what was hidden deep within the region; sealed away from time and mer.
He reached his destination, the central bog, and it trembled at the presence of the mask and the warlord. “I see now.†He smiled, and he dipped a finger into the ash that caked the surface. He brought it to his forehead and upon it he drew a circle with a dot in the center, conscripting the mask, proclaiming, “This is truly a remarkable land. A beautiful land. A ravenous junction, consuming all Glory from PADHOME and convalescing it as it is wounded for now from the Red Dragon, and from the drums of epochs eaten before. I wonder, what remnants of our previous kalpas float through Aether now, like ash of woe floats amongst your many bodies.â€Â
The visage of several of Our ancestors appeared before Nerevar. The first of our brethren spoke in a just voice, appealing to all the virtues we confide in; accepting of obedience from marital ties unbroken from ages and eras before. He bid for our Nerevar to build a tower in resemblance to Adamantine Tower, but less grand and more accustomed to housing a clan of mer who were star-sworn from birth to appease the land, to cultivate it in ways that none else knew how, and to allow the Swamp-Seers to patrol the wastes that were once barren and uninhabitable and allow us all to gather and reconcile within the many teachings of Nerevar.
What remains of the mask that began the embarkation of our peoples is within that same tower, in the highest chamber so that it may always look out upon the blessed lands we dwell in, and so it may always protect us and our many Sal-Edtta warriors, and so it may beckon forth our brothers from Houses Mora, Ra'Athim, Retheran, Sul, Oroynyon, and Drenim, so they can bask in the harmonizing swamps much like we do, and keep our land safe from the mercenaries of this realm and others beyond us.
We show the Swamp-Face in our acceptance of knowing that we do not know everything, yet we have the veracity to accept our humility and evolve from it.
Final Thoughts
What I am supposing is a merge of the Inlet Bog to be a larger part of the ash swamps we have already. This would require a radical redo of the current area, and new meshes, and perhaps even new plans with what to include in the area in regards to civilizations and quests, but do bear in mind that this is also an invitation to perhaps a merging of some of the ideas that would be able to stem from this type of redo of the area. Imagine a large gash on the face of Morrowind, which then feeds into he jungles of Argonia, and would have profound effect on the Dres house as well, in regards to the type of climates they'd be suited to and it would also allow for a lot more creative exploration of not only the player, but of us ourselves as a team of people who have already sacrificed so much, and made so much progress in such a wild world like Tamriel.
I'll confess to not having read your whole post, which I shall do after writing this reply, but first I want to clear up what seems like a big misunderstanding.
The Ash Swamp's existence is not being questioned. It is an excellent region, and I've only seen enthusiasm regarding its existence, far from a desire to get rid of it.
If you look at the maps I linked, you'll see that the Ash Swamp (or Taahn Mur, or (J)) is halfway across the province from Inlet Bog. It is in Redoran lands, and fits in there quite nicely, and bears no relation to Inlet Bog.
All of the recent discussion has been about Inlet Bog. Inlet Bog is also called a swamp because, despite what its placeholder name might suggest, it is a swamp. (Your apparent confusion between the two regions as well as the inaccuracy of the name 'Inlet Bog' are two reasons why generic names are generally a bad idea).
In the map, you will find it below Azura's coast. It is currently a rather generic region very much resembling Bittercoast, and is nestled in Indoril lands. The region itself is in no way ashy, though it is surrounded by blobs of Ashland. Its lack of concept is the main thing being criticized, something which the Ash Swamp has in spades.
To merge Inlet Bog with the Ash Swamp, and then have that gash feed into Argonia, you would effectively have to redo a huge gash of land going from northwestern Morrowind to southeastern Morrowind, changing the Askaaed Coast, Roth Roryn, Thirr River Valley and Alt Orethan as well as cutting the planned Deshaan Plains in half. In other words, that would involve redoing roughly a third of the project, (and some of its better areas, at that), and is far beyond the scope of even the wildest overhaul suggested for Inlet Bog.
Edit: Ash Adepts are also already a Telvanni thing, and the Telvanni would be the only House the proposed changes would not touch.
For the rest, unless we go with the huge scope of changes you seem to suggest, I simply think that there isn't enough room for a mainland equivalent to the Ashlanders. I'd rather be for exploring Ashlander culture and adding depth and variation to it.
The Ash Swamp's existence is not being questioned. It is an excellent region, and I've only seen enthusiasm regarding its existence, far from a desire to get rid of it.
If you look at the maps I linked, you'll see that the Ash Swamp (or Taahn Mur, or (J)) is halfway across the province from Inlet Bog. It is in Redoran lands, and fits in there quite nicely, and bears no relation to Inlet Bog.
All of the recent discussion has been about Inlet Bog. Inlet Bog is also called a swamp because, despite what its placeholder name might suggest, it is a swamp. (Your apparent confusion between the two regions as well as the inaccuracy of the name 'Inlet Bog' are two reasons why generic names are generally a bad idea).
In the map, you will find it below Azura's coast. It is currently a rather generic region very much resembling Bittercoast, and is nestled in Indoril lands. The region itself is in no way ashy, though it is surrounded by blobs of Ashland. Its lack of concept is the main thing being criticized, something which the Ash Swamp has in spades.
To merge Inlet Bog with the Ash Swamp, and then have that gash feed into Argonia, you would effectively have to redo a huge gash of land going from northwestern Morrowind to southeastern Morrowind, changing the Askaaed Coast, Roth Roryn, Thirr River Valley and Alt Orethan as well as cutting the planned Deshaan Plains in half. In other words, that would involve redoing roughly a third of the project, (and some of its better areas, at that), and is far beyond the scope of even the wildest overhaul suggested for Inlet Bog.
Edit: Ash Adepts are also already a Telvanni thing, and the Telvanni would be the only House the proposed changes would not touch.
For the rest, unless we go with the huge scope of changes you seem to suggest, I simply think that there isn't enough room for a mainland equivalent to the Ashlanders. I'd rather be for exploring Ashlander culture and adding depth and variation to it.
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Ironed Maidens
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Ironed Maidens
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After reading your post I was indeed thinking that one idea for Inlet Bog could be to pull in the surrounding ashland areas a little, which could give both them and Inlet Bog more context. Of course that would not in itself solve the inherent problems of Inlet Bog, and would if anything probably be done in conjunction with other (possibly slight) changes.Ironed Maidens wrote:[...] revamping the swamp into an ashland type place is still something I would petition for.
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Ironed Maidens
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I had gone ahead and mentioned that it would still be a lot of work, regardless. But from what I understood, most the the Inlet Bog was seemingly filler area anyway, and there's a lot that can be done with a more treacherous visage of the Bitter Coast; a lot of cool lore could be added since its proximity to Alemalexia.
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Tondollari
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Had a thought about the Bog. The area could be taboo for whatever reason, perhaps some sort of battle with daedra or necromancers, so now only the people with no other options live there. Giving the player a stronghold there would be a massive insult as it would basically be making them Lord of the Unwanted and could even be an attempt to kick them upstairs to get the outlander out of house politics by tying them up with a hated duty.
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Ironed Maidens
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Hello Ironed Maidens. I see some of your ticks have not changed.
I do think it might be possible and wise to incorporate some pre-existing ash swamp models into inlet bog. Not to completely convert the reasion, but to incorporate patches of ash into the bog. That would at least make it look more interesting.
I do think it might be possible and wise to incorporate some pre-existing ash swamp models into inlet bog. Not to completely convert the reasion, but to incorporate patches of ash into the bog. That would at least make it look more interesting.
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Ironed Maidens
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Ticks? Or tricks? Heh. I guess I am who I am.
I think it's up for discussion now, then? Pulling in areas of the ashlands that surround it into the bog would be nice as well, but I suppose what I envision for it is a bit more radical. Perhaps keeping some areas as normal swamp, but still having a majority of it be ash swamp.
A question I have is, where does the statue of Azura on Vvardenfell face towards; does it face to the inlet bog or am I not remembering the location of the statue properly? If anything there could be even more of a lore reason to have a type of swamp-seer sub-culture in the bogs if she's facing towards the swamps...
I think it's up for discussion now, then? Pulling in areas of the ashlands that surround it into the bog would be nice as well, but I suppose what I envision for it is a bit more radical. Perhaps keeping some areas as normal swamp, but still having a majority of it be ash swamp.
A question I have is, where does the statue of Azura on Vvardenfell face towards; does it face to the inlet bog or am I not remembering the location of the statue properly? If anything there could be even more of a lore reason to have a type of swamp-seer sub-culture in the bogs if she's facing towards the swamps...
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Ironed Maidens
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You know what, taking a look at the location of Azura's statue, it sure does look like she's facing out over the Inner Sea and right towards the inlet bog...
This is even more reason for me to push for a redo of the area in a requested manner of, well to be frank...
"There's a lot of cool lore shit we could do with it."
If my ideas in the original post come off ham-handed I can elaborate a bit more, but basically what I'm thinking of in key points is:
1: A type of swamp-seer sub-culture or sect or minor house or WHATEVER, that believes it is its religious duty to "cleanse" the swamps, or be the swamps' keepers; so to speak. They feel connected to it, much like an Argonian feels about their homeland, but in a much crazier way. Nearly fanatical but still reasonably sane, they will have a sort of cult following to various sites of pilgrimage or grace or sanctuary within the swamps.
2: New types of housing, like large muck sponge-ish dwellings that are gray and ashen. New terrain meshes, flora, foodstuffs, and creatures which we have a good few resources out there for already.
3: The ability to expand upon a lot of lore and add unique experiences for the users of the mod to explore a robust new area. What I was mainly thinking was it would be a higher-level area for characters level 30+, with nice challenges and maybe even a large central bog that has an epic questline attached to it. At the end of the questline the player unlocks access to a large temple beneath the bog that can hold a lot of cool Tribunal or Aldmeris lore, with nice loot or some unique artifacts or something.
4: Just a cool spin on existing personae, almost a fresh new face of the craziness of the ashlanders and great houses alike. Just something to keep players interested and engaged. Almost like a reason for them to continue exploring, so they can eventually work their way up to the level that would be needed to complete the questline there and unlock the temple.
This is even more reason for me to push for a redo of the area in a requested manner of, well to be frank...
"There's a lot of cool lore shit we could do with it."
If my ideas in the original post come off ham-handed I can elaborate a bit more, but basically what I'm thinking of in key points is:
1: A type of swamp-seer sub-culture or sect or minor house or WHATEVER, that believes it is its religious duty to "cleanse" the swamps, or be the swamps' keepers; so to speak. They feel connected to it, much like an Argonian feels about their homeland, but in a much crazier way. Nearly fanatical but still reasonably sane, they will have a sort of cult following to various sites of pilgrimage or grace or sanctuary within the swamps.
2: New types of housing, like large muck sponge-ish dwellings that are gray and ashen. New terrain meshes, flora, foodstuffs, and creatures which we have a good few resources out there for already.
3: The ability to expand upon a lot of lore and add unique experiences for the users of the mod to explore a robust new area. What I was mainly thinking was it would be a higher-level area for characters level 30+, with nice challenges and maybe even a large central bog that has an epic questline attached to it. At the end of the questline the player unlocks access to a large temple beneath the bog that can hold a lot of cool Tribunal or Aldmeris lore, with nice loot or some unique artifacts or something.
4: Just a cool spin on existing personae, almost a fresh new face of the craziness of the ashlanders and great houses alike. Just something to keep players interested and engaged. Almost like a reason for them to continue exploring, so they can eventually work their way up to the level that would be needed to complete the questline there and unlock the temple.
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Ironed Maidens
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I want to be helpful so that you don't put a lot of effort into follies like this again. Here are the two big problems that appear to me:
-This is very "uber." You're trying to do every cool thing at once in your idea. TR only gets to pull each gag so many times and you want to pull all of them in this one concept.
-This isn't incorporated into or developed from the larger master plan of TR. You wrote up that whole post not even aware of what part of the gameworld was at issue. "Swamp-seers" that are halfway between Indoril and ashlanders (but live in a swamp??) don't fit into the way these concepts are being developed in the large picture.
These problems seem connected. Rather than trying to contribute to the whole of TR, you just sort of inserted all of your ideas into this single point, causing it to burst like a big pimple. There are a hundred places you could make contributions, remember that. Instead of putting all your ideas in one basket, do a search across your internal idea database and find only the ideas that are high specific match for what is needed in each case.
Lastly, this isn't relevant to your underlying ideas, but please do not use words that you are not clear on the meaning of. We will never incorporate in-game text that no member of the project understands. Even when you are writing out of character in your previous posts, you have used turns of phrase that are semantically meaningless (such as "I would parse to say"). This is something you used to do a lot, and while I think people gave you a bad time about it, your posts will definitely not be well received if you keep doing it.
-This is very "uber." You're trying to do every cool thing at once in your idea. TR only gets to pull each gag so many times and you want to pull all of them in this one concept.
-This isn't incorporated into or developed from the larger master plan of TR. You wrote up that whole post not even aware of what part of the gameworld was at issue. "Swamp-seers" that are halfway between Indoril and ashlanders (but live in a swamp??) don't fit into the way these concepts are being developed in the large picture.
These problems seem connected. Rather than trying to contribute to the whole of TR, you just sort of inserted all of your ideas into this single point, causing it to burst like a big pimple. There are a hundred places you could make contributions, remember that. Instead of putting all your ideas in one basket, do a search across your internal idea database and find only the ideas that are high specific match for what is needed in each case.
Lastly, this isn't relevant to your underlying ideas, but please do not use words that you are not clear on the meaning of. We will never incorporate in-game text that no member of the project understands. Even when you are writing out of character in your previous posts, you have used turns of phrase that are semantically meaningless (such as "I would parse to say"). This is something you used to do a lot, and while I think people gave you a bad time about it, your posts will definitely not be well received if you keep doing it.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
A bit of a divergence, but taking a look at Azura's statue, she is actually facing east over the Inner Sea, either to Ayemar, or arguably Necrom, or simply in the direction the Velothi traditionally travelled.Ironed Maidens wrote:You know what, taking a look at the location of Azura's statue, it sure does look like she's facing out over the Inner Sea and right towards the inlet bog...
Incidentally, the statue is also facing an equally large statue of Mephala that stands in the Mephalain Mountains, which in turn is facing southwest and might actually be facing Inlet Bog, if not Dun Akafell or Almalexia.
I do however agree with Sload's two points. I feel as though your idea is trying to do too much at once, and at the same time I'd prefer if we were to focus on expanding on the lore and cultures already present in Morrowind as opposed to creating new ones.
While some of the ideas you mentioned are certainly worth considering by themselves, considering the amount of work the full implementation you suggest would require, I think the work would be better spent improving on the project as opposed to adding on to it.
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Ironed Maidens
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I don't think it would be THAT large of a stretch to say that there were a few Indoril who took to a different path and got a sort of cult going out there. It's weird and it's interesting. I'm not trying to throw all my eggs into one basket, I'm just saying that it's a general idea. I never said it HAD to be any particular way.
It would also be able to tie into why the Indoril stronghold is there, that was the point of my text, to give the people that would live there a type of reverence to Indoril Nerevar. Just addressing the issues as they are pointed out.
In regards to my writing style, like I said, it is what it is. Live and let be, yeah?
It would also be able to tie into why the Indoril stronghold is there, that was the point of my text, to give the people that would live there a type of reverence to Indoril Nerevar. Just addressing the issues as they are pointed out.
In regards to my writing style, like I said, it is what it is. Live and let be, yeah?
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Ironed Maidens
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I don't think either myself or Sload really questioned whether there could be such a group. Speaking only for myself, I certainly think it's plausible.Ironed Maidens wrote:I don't think it would be THAT large of a stretch to say that there were a few Indoril who took to a different path and got a sort of cult going out there. It's weird and it's interesting. I'm not trying to throw all my eggs into one basket, I'm just saying that it's a general idea. I never said it HAD to be any particular way.
The question is whether the existence of such a group would build on the image of House Indoril that already exists, and which we are trying to build on and present.
House Indoril's image is by no means complete, but at the moment it is a very centralized House which devotes itself to following laws in the broadest sense. (In other words, including laws of nature and the like).
It has extremely close ties to the Temple, and claims that most Temple figures hailed from House Indoril. As the Tribunal and the Temple are supposedly the rulers of Morrowind, House Indoril sees itself as the superior House.
Already mentioning those few points, none of them really mesh well with the Swamp-Seers. You have an isolated cult that lives in disregard of the Indoril laws and ways, has a strange form of worship disconnected from Temple hierarchy and lives secluded in a swamp.
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Ironed Maidens
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Doesn't seem to different to me. They still revere the Temple, Lord Indoril, and all the Saints alike, plus they would be genuinely concerned about helping out the minor houses as well. And the fact that they feel connected to the swamp goes with the idea that they follow the laws of nature themselves as well; just like there are the different Daera worshipers who follow different values of nature. Those of Mephala view bloodshed as a type of holy sacrament, while those of Molog Bal view torture as an expression of devoutness and a type of art.
While I understand the need to not have the whole thing seem 'moddy', there really isn't much to go on anyway with the Indoril and Dres, so why not canonically use the land that's already been made and just reshape it into an image that adds a little something?
It's kind of like Necrom; I love what's already there, but there could also be a lot more done with it. No need to put it all upwards at once, but why not just flesh out some ideas for it?
Plus I don't see the harm in having a robust questline attached to the area to unlock a nice prize/interesting dungeon at the end, really. Like I said, I envision this to be a sort of end-game zone, geared towards the higher leveled players.
While I understand the need to not have the whole thing seem 'moddy', there really isn't much to go on anyway with the Indoril and Dres, so why not canonically use the land that's already been made and just reshape it into an image that adds a little something?
It's kind of like Necrom; I love what's already there, but there could also be a lot more done with it. No need to put it all upwards at once, but why not just flesh out some ideas for it?
Plus I don't see the harm in having a robust questline attached to the area to unlock a nice prize/interesting dungeon at the end, really. Like I said, I envision this to be a sort of end-game zone, geared towards the higher leveled players.
Well, my problem is that your idea doesn't seem to flesh out the Indoril. It creates something new and nominally Indoril-ish that coexists with House Indoril, but it doesn't really expand on that House or on any other part of the project. I think your following comment serves to illustrate that point:
What an Indoril would associate with 'laws of nature' is very different from what we might associate with 'laws of nature'. [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24449]These[/url] [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24011]threads[/url] are good places to start.
To me, that comment reads as suggesting that, rather than trying to build up the badly represented existing groups and cultures, we instead push them aside and create a new fleshed out culture. That doesn't really bring us any further in portraying the Indoril; if anything it constricts the area we have at our disposal in which to portray the groups and cultures that already exist in favour of groups and cultures that we just made up.Ironed Maidens wrote:[...] there really isn't much to go on anyway with the Indoril and Dres, so why not canonically use the land that's already been made and just reshape it into an image that adds a little something?
What an Indoril would associate with 'laws of nature' is very different from what we might associate with 'laws of nature'. [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24449]These[/url] [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24011]threads[/url] are good places to start.
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Ironed Maidens
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Yeti
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The thing is, we already have sub-cultures for House Indoril that add to the overall character of the house in subtle ways. For instance, the Indoril of the Lan Orethan are introverted and detached, while the Indoril of the Thirr River valley are proactive in their opposition to outside change. But at the same time, they are still all building towards a comprehensive portrayal of the House as a whole.
Last edited by Yeti on Sun May 04, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I'm locking this thread as unproductive. The question it raised has been resolved.
Ironed Maidens, nothing is stopping you from "agreeing to disagree" with everyone else, but there is very little hope that that will result in you participating effectively in the world and story design of this project.
Ironed Maidens, nothing is stopping you from "agreeing to disagree" with everyone else, but there is very little hope that that will result in you participating effectively in the world and story design of this project.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]