City Planning: Andothren

[Yeti]

Alrighty everyone, I don’t want to come across as imposing on another team’s section, but I think it’s about time we tried to build a finalized framework plan for Andothren, setting everything down in a comprehensive document. A ton of stuff was posted in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24281]old discussion thread[/url] a few months back. I have tried to synthesize its more popular content together into clear sections here. When discussing these topics, please format your posts using emboldened headings to make it easier to follow individual topics. I recommend putting each section of proposed content to a vote and then ironing out any differences of opinion through further discussion.

Location

As the Hlaalu's only oceanic port, Andothren is located just west of the Thirr. A major trading port controlled by the Camonna Tong through a mix of clandestine and overt connections, it is filled with waterfalls and lies in the shadows of a major Dwemer ruin. The bay has been a Temple holy site for centuries.

History

Up until sometime after the empire's annexation of Morrowind, Andothren and its surrounding territory belonged to House Indoril. At some point the Hlaalu Council Company gained control of the area and Andothren became a bustling seaside port. The specific mechanics of how this came about don't need to be sketched out. Eventually Tholer Andas and his family rose to prominence in the city, becoming its representative on the Hlaalu Council.

Role in House Hlaalu

Within the Hlaalu trade empire, Andothren is the main port. It is a busy cosmopolitan city, with large docks, ships stocked with trade and a content working-class populace. Andothren commands Hlaalu commerce north of the Armun Ashlands and along the entirety of the west bank of the Thirr. Merchants and local planters transport an immense quantity of trade goods through Andothren. It serves as a nexus between Hlaalu’s Vvardenfell holdings and the Hlaalu heartland.

The city’s political leanings slant towards the Camonna Tong. Rather than control the city overtly, they rely on “uprightâ€Â￾ Hlaalu working in the Council House to take care of legal trade, while shadier Hlaalu deal with the Tong. But in the end all of them are Hlaalu.

Situated beyond the orbit of Narsis' direct influence, Andothren exists as a more attainable target for ambitious upstart Housemen to make their mark. Various individuals and interest groups vie for power in the city. The Hlaalu faction questline might involve rising to power in the city’s political free-for-all before going south to tackle Narsis and the Hlaalu’s secret conspiracy.

Population

Many Dunmer living in Andothren are associated with House Hlaalu. Hlaalu traders operate the fancier shops. They are astute merchants who sell valuable goods. Hlaalu plantation owners, though not dwelling in the city proper, have a strong influence in Andothren. Hlaalu diplomats, agents, retainers, bureaucrats and spies compose the House’s rank and file.

Outside the House, unaffiliated shopkeepers offer lesser goods and services. The city’s native lower class is composed of typical religious Dunmer commoners. They work as dockworkers, fisherman, servants and craftsmer.
Dunmer make up a majority (60%) of Andothren’s population.

Outlanders dwell in the city in large numbers. Imperials make up a significant presence (20%). Imperial bourgeoisie dwell in the more lavish houses of the city and have high standing in the trading scene. They form the backbone of the city’s foreign middle class. Some associate with House Hlaalu, while others are tied more closely to the empire. They feel largely safe and at home in the city, not really suspecting the Hlaalu’s more devious motives.

Khajiit are found in Andothren in significant numbers. Some are slaves raised on neighboring plantations. They are sent to the city to be shipped to other parts of Morrowind (Telvannis District, the Thirr River Valley, ect). One can also find a greater number of free Khajiit than average in Anodthren as well.

As a port city, you’ll see a decent number of Redguards and Nords. Some work with House Hlaalu, while others are lower class sailors and vagabond types. Bretons can be found in the Imperial guilds, with the odd scribe working with House Hlaalu.

Gameplay Characteristics

Due to its coastal location and proximity to Seyda Neen, Andothren might be the first major city new players visit on the mainland. Andothren has most services any adventurer could possibly dream of, including clothiers, outfitters, smiths and alchemists. Most merchants, due to their Hlaalu ties, tend to have rather high bartering skills, making Andothren an expensive city to shop in as a non-member. Independent traders tend to offer lesser quality gear, and may actually be banned from selling certain goods above a certain quality due to Hlaalu rules.

Imperial Guilds

Andothren has both a Mages Guild and a Fighters guild. The most recent Andothren Mages Guild plans call for a guild steward who mostly studies Daedra and Daedric ruins.

The Fighters Guild acts as an enforcer for various interest groups and individuals in Andothren. The local guild hall may or may not have a direct connection with the Camonna Tong like on Vvardenfell, but will probably refuse contracts that put them on the wrong side of House Hlaalu or the Camonna Tong.

The Thieves Guild likely doesn’t have much of a presence in Andothren starting out. It might try to establish itself in the city during the Thieves Guild quest line. It might use the nearby Dwemer ruins as a temporary base to avoid coming into direct conflict with the Camonna Tong. If pestered they might try to pass themselves off as an Imperial Archaeological Society team.

Religion

Andothren's waterfalls are Almalexia's miracle of "bringing the sky low and making the earth cry sweet water" that provided a refuge for the Dunmer armies during the Battle of Red Mountain, when Kagrenac sunk the Valley of Veloth and created the Inner Sea. The fresh water falls still exist here as a reminder of her glory.

Most Dunmer in the city follow the Tribunal faith and visit Andothren's Temple regularly as most respectable Temple followers do. The city’s religiosity isn’t tied overtly with the Hlaalu in any way. It’s not a quirk of the local Hlaalu that the port they control contains religious sites. The Temple is prominent in the city because it is a religious site, not because the Hlaalu are uncharacteristically faithful.

Commerce

Andothren’s wealth comes from its port and the produce of nearby plantations. The local Hlaalu plantations produce corkbulb, scrib cabbage and comberry. Most Hlaalu slaves are Khajiit born and raised as slaves in plantations like those surrounding Andothren. Many of them are then sold (or smuggled) off to other parts of Morrowind.

Through smart maneuvering, the Hlaalu have established monopoly rights on the export and import of certain goods. Both Andothren and the nearby Imperial citadel of Old Ebonheart command seafaring trade on the Inner Sea. They would likely be rivals if a Hlaalu-Imperial deal hadn’t been struck. Andothren trades a variety of goods such as foodstuff grown on Hlaalu plantations and Khajiit slaves. In return, Old Ebonheart has retained international export rights on limited luxury goods like ebony, gems and Dwemer artifacts. As the Inner Sea has recently been ruled Imperial waters, that means that Old Ebonheart maintains an effective monopoly on the trade of those goods in perhaps Morrowind's most important trade region.

Catcatchers

Catcatchers are Hlaalu slave hunters. They have a presence in Andothren, due to the key role the city has in the Khajiit slave trade. In an age when raiding Elsweyr for slaves has become impractical, most catcatchers earn their living capturing runaway slaves and guarding slave caravan routes. They might have some overlap with Camonna Tong interests.

Camonna Tong

The Camonna Tong has a strong controlling presence in Andothren. They control key cornerclubs in the city and the Hlaalu Councilman of Andothren, Tholer Andas, has Camonna Tong ties. They represent the nastier side of House Hlaalu, displaying varying degrees of xenophobia, racism and hate. Somehow the local Hlaalu disassociate themselves from their Camonna Tong dealings when working with outlanders. \

For the Camonna Tong, Andothren represents an important smuggling hub due to its central relation to the local bandit caves along the coast. Although they play a strong role smuggling goods through the city’s docks, their presence is not so explicit as to say they control the city directly. They keep to their own enterprises and influence the rest of the city through pawns and backers in House Hlaalu. A Hlaalu noble or merchant might make a deal with the Camonna Tong at noon and then chat with an Imperial emissary over dinner.

Outside of the city, the power of the Camonna Tong becomes more apparent; through their control of one or two of the surrounding plantations. They have a solid hold on regional bandit and smuggling activities and might “collect tollsâ€Â￾ from non-Hlaalu travelers -- especially Imperials -- on occasion. Inside the city, they might cause trouble for the odd outlander, but otherwise are more concerned with making money.

------------------

Older version(s):

[spoiler]Location

As the Hlaalu's only oceanic port, Andothren is located just west of the Thirr. A major trading port controlled by the Camonna Tong through a mix of clandestine and overt connections, it is filled with waterfalls and lies in the shadows of a major Dwemer ruin. The bay has been a Temple holy site for centuries.

History

Andothren and its surrounding territory once belonged to the Andasril family of House Indoril. Through tryst and intrigue the Andasril family found itself marrying into the Hlaalu Council Company, which led to the land on the left bank of the river Thirr becoming Company property. The exiled Andasril adopted the name “Andasâ€Â￾, and became Andothren's ruling family.

Role in House Hlaalu

Within the Hlaalu trade empire, Andothren is the main port. It is a busy cosmopolitan city, with large docks, ships stocked with trade and a content working-class populace. Andothren commands Hlaalu commerce north of the Armun Ashlands and along the entirety of the west bank of the Thirr. Merchants and local planters transport an immense quantity of trade goods through Andothren. It serves as a nexus between Hlaalu’s Vvardenfell holdings and the Hlaalu heartland.

The city’s political leanings slant towards the Camonna Tong’s camp. Rather than control the city overtly, they rely on “uprightâ€Â￾ Hlaalu working in the Council House to take care of legal trade, while shadier Hlaalu deal with the Tong. But in the end all of them are Hlaalu.

Situated beyond the orbit of Narsis' direct influence, Andothren exists as a more attainable target for ambitious upstart Housemen to make their mark. Various individuals and interest groups vie for power in the city. The Hlaalu faction questline might involve rising to power in the city’s political free-for-all before going south to tackle Narsis and the Hlaalu’s secret conspiracy.

Population

Many Dunmer living in Andothren are associated with House Hlaalu. Hlaalu traders operate the fancier shops. They are astute merchants who sell valuable goods. Hlaalu plantation owners, though not dwelling in the city proper, have a strong influence in Andothren. Hlaalu diplomats, agents, retainers, bureaucrats and spies compose the House’s rank and file. Outside the House, unaffiliated shopkeepers offer lesser goods and services. The city’s native lower class is composed of typical religious Dunmer commoners. They work as dockworkers, fisherman, servants and craftsmer. Despite House Hlaalu’s Imperial leanings, the city’s Dunmer population is a bit xenophobic on average.

Although Dunmer make up a majority (60%) of Andothren’s population, outlanders dwell in the city in large numbers. Imperials make up a significant presence (20%). Imperial bourgeoisie dwell in the more lavish houses of the city and have high standing in the trading scene. They form the backbone of the city’s foreign middle class. Some associate with House Hlaalu, while others are tied more closely to the empire. They feel largely safe and at home in the city, not really suspecting the Hlaalu’s more devious motives.

Khajiit are found in Andothren in large numbers. Most are slaves raised on neighboring plantations. They are sent to the city to serve as houseslaves or to be shipped to other parts of Morrowind (Telvannis District, the Thirr River Valley, ect). As a port city, you’ll see a decent number of Redguards and Nords. Some work with House Hlaalu, while others are lower class sailors and vagabond types. Bretons can be found in the Imperial guilds, with the odd scribe working with House Hlaalu. Lower class outlanders find employment as laborers employed by Imperial enterprises.

Gameplay Characteristics

Due to its coastal location and proximity to Seyda Neen, Andothren might be the first major city new players visit on the mainland. Andothren has most services any adventurer could possibly dream of, including clothiers, outfitters, smiths and alchemists. Most merchants, due to their Hlaalu ties, tend to have rather high bartering skills, making Andothren an expensive city to shop in as a non-member. Independent traders tend to offer lesser quality gear, and may actually be banned from selling certain goods above a certain quality due to Hlaalu rules.

Imperial Guilds

Andothren has both a Mages Guild and a Fighters guild. The most recent Andothren Mages Guild plans call for a guild steward who is mostly interested in Daedra and Daedric ruins.

The Fighters Guild acts as an enforcer for various interest groups and individuals in Andothren. Its Camonna Tong ties may or may not carry over from Vvardenfell, or the guild could be more impartial. Regardless, the local guild hall will probably refuse contracts that put them on the wrong side of House Hlaalu or the Camonna Tong.

The Thieves Guild likely doesn’t have much of a presence in Andothren starting out. It might try to establish itself in the city during the Thieves Guild quest line. It might use the nearby Dwemer ruins as a temporary base to avoid coming into direct conflict with the Camonna Tong. If pestered they might try to pass themselves off as an Imperial Archaeological Society team.

Dwemer Ruin

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24336&sid=05a3459c2c02ea42f6420209a27a5ba8]See this thread for the most recent discussion.[/url]

Religion

Andothren's waterfalls are Almalexia's miracle of "bringing the sky low and making the earth cry sweet water" that provided a refuge for the Dunmer armies during the Battle of Red Mountain, when Kagrenac sunk the Valley of Veloth and created the Inner Sea. The fresh water falls still exist here as a reminder of her glory.

Most Dunmer in the city follow the Tribunal faith and visit Andothren's Temple regularly as most respectable Temple followers do. The city’s religiosity isn’t tied overtly with the Hlaalu in any way. It’s not a quirk of the local Hlaalu that the port they control contains religious sites. The Temple is prominent in the city because it is a religious site, not because the Hlaalu are uncharacteristically faithful.

Commerce

Andothren’s wealth comes from its port and the produce of nearby plantations. The local Hlaalu plantations produce corkbulb, scrib cabbage and comberry. The Hlaalu breed their Khajiit slaves in captivity on nearby plantations and export them to other parts of Morrowind through Andothren.

Through smart maneuvering, the Hlaalu have established monopoly rights on exports and imports of certain goods. Both Andothren and the nearby Imperial citadel of Old Ebonheart command seafaring trade on the Inner Sea. They would likely be rivals if a Hlaalu-Imperial deal hadn’t been struck. Andothren trades in foodstuff grown on Hlaalu plantations, Telvaani Bug and Khajiit slaves. In return, Old Ebonheart has retained international exportation rights for resources like ebony, gems and Dwemer artifacts.

Catcatchers

Catcatchers are Hlaalu slave hunters. They have a major presence in Andothren, due to the key role the city has in the Khajiit slave trade. In an age when raiding Elsweyr for slaves has become impractical, most catcatchers earn their living capturing runaway slaves and guarding slave caravan routes. They might have some overlap with Camonna Tong interests

Camonna Tong

The Camonna Tong has a strong controlling presence in Andothren. They control key cornerclubs in the city and the Hlaalu Councilman of Andothren, Tholer Andas, has Camonna Tong ties. They represent the nastier side of House Hlaalu, displaying varying degrees of xenophobia, racism and hate. Somehow the local Hlaalu disassociate themselves from their Camonna Tong dealings when working with outlanders.

For the Camonna Tong, Andothren represents an important smuggling hub due to its central relation to the local bandit caves along the coast. Although they play a strong role smuggling goods through the city’s docks, their presence is not so explicit as to say they control the city directly. They keep to their own enterprises and influence the rest of the city through pawns and backers in House Hlaalu. A Hlaalu noble or merchant might make a deal with the Camonna Tong at noon and then chat with an Imperial emissary over dinner.

Outside of the city, the power of the Camonna Tong becomes more apparent; through their control of one or two of the surrounding plantations. They have a solid hold on regional bandit and smuggling activities and might “collect tollsâ€Â￾ from non-Hlaalu travelers -- especially Imperials -- on occasion. Inside the city, they might cause trouble for the odd outlander, but otherwise are more concerned with making money.[/spoiler]

[Gnomey]

Impose away! I approve of almost every one of those points. There are only two points I'd like to comment on:

History

While I could see this working out, it does need a lot of elaboration to work, in my opinion. Specifically to explain how Andasril, an Indoril of (likely) significant standing, ends up working for House Hlaalu, and with the Camonna Tong.
Rather than it being implausible, (which it certainly is), I think it could be an opportunity to tell a really interesting story. Not only in explaining his actions, but also in exploring the resulting relations with House Hlaalu, House Indoril and within his family. For that matter, there's also potential for him to be a really interesting character.

Population

Khajiiti houseslaves? I'm not against it, but on Vvardenfell Hlaalu traded with slaves rather than employing them themselves.
I would however sort of like there to be a rich Imperial somewhere who uses slaves because he can and is an extremely controversial figure among the outlander population.

[Sload]

why are there "catcatchers" in andothren except that the idea of "catcatchers" was had around the same time andothren was being planned? why should catcatchers be concentrated anywhere, and why here as opposed to the southern parts of Morrowind closer to the border?

EDIT: Also, a plantation that specifically breeds Khajiit as its commodity stretches my disbelief.

[roerich]

Slavery

EDIT: Also, a plantation that specifically breeds Khajiit as its commodity stretches my disbelief.

I agree. This strike me as more of a Dres occurence, where Dres slavemasters force Khajiit slaves to copulate during certain moons, in order to not get savage senche tiger offspring, who are harder to control. This is an explanation as to why there are so many Ohmes-Raht in Morrowind (which I nicked from a BGSF thread).

[EJRS]

Great initiative, Yeti. Proper discussion and finalizing of design frameworks is something I feel is very much needed, both to keep development at a better pace and to ensure a well-designed, solid result.

I would, however, agree with all the points of the above posters.

History
The proposed history-concept is going to require a great deal of careful thinking, planning and fleshing out in order to hold water. It could very easily turn out like something just slapped on. Not to say that it could not, under any circumstances, work. But will this story be able to be told in a satisfactory way within the scope of Andothren?
I feel that fleshing out on this story might steal attention away from the other major concepts behind Andothren.
If it was up to me, I'd rather keep the backstory simple, in order to be able to put more focus on the camonna-hlaalu-imperial triangle, the temple-hlaalu relationship and the role of Andothren as the only seaside Hlaalu town, especially since it is in the foremost agricultural region of Morrowind.
I feel it might be better to aim a bit lower with the storytelling, and come close to the mark, than to aim too high and leave everything half-told.
And after all, this is prime property owing to its geographical placement, it doesn't really need any particular story to explain it.

Slavery
Both a slave-breeding plantation as well as house-slaves does seem like something belonging to the Dres and the Telvanni respectively. The impression that I get is that slavery within house Hlaalu is mostly for plantation work and mining.

As I interpret it, "catcatcher" is a rather antiquated term, having become mostly a honorary title. The actual Hlaalu catcatcher would be something more like a bounty hunter specializing on catching runaway slaves.

Imperial Guilds
I feel there is room to make the Fighters Guild a bit interesting. Camonna Tong town, right? So it would be quite plausible if the head of the guild would have some sort of CT-connection. Which means, s/he wouldn't be opposed to giving his subordinates slave hunting missions, which would likely be highly in demand in a region where plantations worked by slaves is the main industry.
Moral ambiguity aplenty, as well as the basis of an interesting split within the local guild.

Is there any info on the whole "bringing the sky low and making the earth cry sweet water"-thing? That one has totally slipped me by.

Edit: headings

[Yeti]

Please use headings everyone. This whole thread will become a jumbled mess without them.

Catcatchers

why are there "catcatchers" in andothren except that the idea of "catcatchers" was had around the same time andothren was being planned? why should catcatchers be concentrated anywhere, and why here as opposed to the southern parts of Morrowind closer to the border?

Yes, I agree. They shouldn't be concentrated in Andothren.

Commerce

EDIT: Also, a plantation that specifically breeds Khajiit as its commodity stretches my disbelief.

I don't picture a plantation that specifically breeds Khajiit. It would happen on all the plantations collectively as a necessary side activity, just like how the slave population was maintained in the Antebellum South after the slave trade from Africa was abolished. Haven't we agreed that the Hlaalu should be the main traders in Khajiit slaves? Without a practical way to get them from Elsweyr, a self-sustaining population is the only explanation for why there are so many of them.

I'm not sure why everyone is making a big deal about house slaves. They're just slaves placed in manors to do menial chores. We see it all the time across TR's maps already. Slaves either serve as house-cleaning servants or as laborers in the field and mines.

Discussing where the Hlaalu get their slaves is probably something for the Master Planning section.

History

While I could see this working out, it does need a lot of elaboration to work, in my opinion. Specifically to explain how Andasril, an Indoril of (likely) significant standing, ends up working for House Hlaalu, and with the Camonna Tong.
Rather than it being implausible, (which it certainly is), I think it could be an opportunity to tell a really interesting story. Not only in explaining his actions, but also in exploring the resulting relations with House Hlaalu, House Indoril and within his family. For that matter, there's also potential for him to be a really interesting character.

It wasn't my idea, so I'm not speaking with authority here, but I don't see anything practically implausible about the situation. The Andasril were tricked into marrying into the Hlaalu Council Company and because of family honor/recognizing House Indoril's decline, they went along with it. As such, I agree with EJRS on keeping the back story simple and leaving the specific details of the transition up to the player's imagination.

[Gnomey]

History

[...] The Andasril were tricked into marrying into the Hlaalu Council Company and because of family honor/recognizing House Indoril's decline, they went along with it.

The thing is, the way House Indoril has been characterized up to this point, I'd think a whole important family being expelled from House Indoril would lead to every member of that family committing suicide or something. Being expelled from ones ancestral House is already a huge loss of honour.
Even if they didn't commit suicide, I'd imagine that they would either try to withdraw from society in shame or maybe try to rebuild their family honour by serving with the Ordinators or something.
Instead, the narrative has Tholer Andas in an important position in the Hlaalu Council Company and cutting deals with the Camonna Tong. A theocrat transformed into a fat cat, apparently.
At the same time, the Hlaalu Council Company is willing to trust a former Indoril noble with control of one of their border cities. The Hlaalu city closest to the Indoril border, no less, and consequently most likely to be involved in the House war with Indoril.
Why would House Hlaalu trust a man whose family has devoted itself to serving House Indoril for countless generations to hold that kind of position?
If such a course of action is not, in fact, unusual, then I'd like to know why it isn't unusual. If it is unusual, then we could either change it or craft the specific situation and character of Tholer Andas -- and perhaps his whole family -- so that it makes sense in context.

I feel it might be better to aim a bit lower with the storytelling, and come close to the mark, than to aim too high and leave everything half-told.

In general, I agree that getting the broad strokes right is more important than crafting a masterpiece in miniature. That being said, an important component of vanilla Morrowind's world is its unique and interesting characters, particularly questgivers, House councillors and faction leaders, among others. I think to ignore that side of storytelling would be a mistake, and I'm not sure whether TR is really incapable of properly balancing the two.
For example I think all of the discussions on Indoril cultural identity would fall short of their potential if every Indoril adheres to that stereotype. Almost more important than establishing a standard, in my opinion, is establishing exceptions that prove the rule. Tholer Andas does not need to be such an exception, but the potential is there.

Population

I'm not sure why everyone is making a big deal about house slaves. They're just slaves placed in manors to do menial chores. We see it all the time across TR's maps already. Slaves either serve as house-cleaning servants or as laborers in the field and mines.

The reason everyone is commenting on the household slaves bit is because the Hlaalu never employed household slaves on Vvardenfell. On Vvardenfell household slaves were fairly characteristic of House Telvanni. The reason we see them across TR maps is because TR maps so far are comprised of Telvanni and Indoril lands, and they, along with House Dres, are the most likely to own household slaves. House Redoran and House Hlaalu, as a general rule, do not.
Again, though, I would not be averse to making household slaves more common in mainland Hlaalu lands or just around Andothren. I'm not really for the idea either, but I suppose it could work. For the most part, though, I see Hlaalu slaves pretty exclusively as plantation workers and merchandise.

I don't see any problem with most of the modern Khajiiti slave population being born and raised in Hlaalu plantations.

Catcatchers

I agree that catcatchers should not be concentrated in Andothren, and otherwise agree with how they are presented in Yeti's original post.

Imperial Guilds

For the Fighters Guild, I think I prefer the idea of there not being any real CT connection, per se. It seems a little predictable to me. Instead, as in Yeti's original post, the Fighters Guild doesn't want to tread on the CT's toes, which could indeed mean that the FG might take on a lot of less than savoury jobs.
Basically I like EJRS' suggestion, but don't think any actual connection between the factions is necessary or necessarily desirable.
It's a rather small distinction to make, but I think that approach could make for more interesting quests in the long run. (For example, the guild leader may be conflicted as to whether it is better to be a partner in crime to the CT or to risk becoming the target of crime).

Is there any info on the whole "bringing the sky low and making the earth cry sweet water"-thing? That one has totally slipped me by.

It is mainly discussed in the first few posts of the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24292]Establishing Background Lore[/url] thread. Some of the details had slipped my mind as well.

[RyanS]

Camonna Tong:
I have always wondered why the Camonna Tong seems to have the most influence in Hlaalu territory. Why would the tong have dealings with the house when the Hlaalu are known to be the best trading partners with the empire? The Cammona Tong is well known for its hatred to foreigners, and would seem to fit best in perhaps Dres/Telvanni lands. Also, I understand that CT influence from Hlaalu terrirory is in the original game, so please forgive me if this is is not a good place to be asking the question. I just never really understood the relationship between the two.

[EJRS]

Camonna Tong:
I have always wondered why the Camonna Tong seems to have the most influence in Hlaalu territory. Why would the tong have dealings with the house when the Hlaalu are known to be the best trading partners with the empire? The Cammona Tong is well known for its hatred to foreigners, and would seem to fit best in perhaps Dres/Telvanni lands. Also, I understand that CT influence from Hlaalu terrirory is in the original game, so please forgive me if this is is not a good place to be asking the question. I just never really understood the relationship between the two.

I think a simple answer to this is that the Camonna Tong are portrayed more as a criminal network than an idealistic organization. Smuggling and trading in illegal goods (slaves, skooma, dwermer artifacts etc.) and other maffia-like activities is their game, with nationalism/racism being more the general stance of the organization rather than the main focus. As such, it operates more effectively within Hlaalu territories.

Cosa Nostra rather than KKK.

And just a quick note on the "exceptions that prove the rule"-thing. I very much agree that there needs to be exceptions and deviations to sustain believability as well as for added character. However, they should be used with care. I think it is vital that when an exception to the established framework is made, it is made for a puprose. Otherwise, the storytelling will be diluted and thin, and the otherwise very characterful cultural identities of Morrowind will become blurry, indistinct, and thus loose much of its character for no clear gain.
So when it is agreed upon to make an exception, there needs to be a clear idea behind what we are trying to tell by making this exception. Along with that, there also needs to be sufficent planning to make sure that it all makes sense.
I think it is very important to ask "What is the story I want to tell here, what point am I trying to make?" first, rather than the other way around.

Slavery
In the case of Hlaalu house-slaves, I can't really see the reason for making this deviation.
An single eccentric, who keeps house-slaves because he CAN? That is good, it tells a story.
A single town or smaller region, where house-slaves are commonplace? It could provide some local colour.
In both cases, this needs to be clearly commented on ingame, otherwise it is going to make a mess of the overall picture we are painting.

History
The idea of the Andas bloodline being an indoril line married into house Hlaalu, but still retaining a position in Andothren? This presents a lot of problems, story-wise, many of which Gnomey pointed out. It could be made to work, but it would require a lot of effort. My concern is wether it is really necessary to put all that effort into fleshing out a single character? And for what reason? Exploring Indoril-Hlaalu interaction? I think that is a story that could be more effectively told on a town-wide basis in the areas more immediately on the border, and which seems like it will get more than its share of focus elsewhere, to the point where it seems like a rather cheap card to pull.

I do agree that, as a person of standing, Tholer needs an interesting character. I just feel that the proposed story would be a lot of effort for no real reason.

[Yeti]

History

@Gnomey - I prefer Sload's recent interpretation (I can't seem to find where he posted it) about suicide not being a commonplace occurrence among the Indoril. The mass suicides following Morrowind's annexation were a spontaneous anomaly that are not discussed in polite society.

@EJRS: Andothren exists on land that was once controlled by House Indoril in our mod's back-story. There needs to be some kind of explanation for how it became Hlaalu turf.

Everyone seems to be overlooking one specific detail of the current history section (which I had no part in coming up with, by the way): The Andrasil's were tricked into marrying into House Hlaalu, or at least that's my interpretation of what "tryst and intrigue" means in this case. As such, being good Indoril who follow the traditions of family lineage and blood-ties, they would have had no choice but to join with the Hlaalu (or maybe only the younger generation had to join, idk). In other words, it doesn't necessarily have to be something they willingly did.

Population

@Gnomey - I don't think it particularly matters whether the Hlaalu used household slaves on Vvardenfell or not. Every slave-holding society throughout history that I can think of has employed slaves as domestic servants to some extent. What about the Hlaalu would make them fall outside this trend? I'm fine either way to be honest, though I think there should be a reason for why the Hlaalu shy away from it (with the Redoran, it's more obvious why they wouldn't employ slaves in their homes, given their House's martial character).

It might be useful to discuss how each Great House employs its slaves in a separate thread.

[Gnomey]

Camonna Tong

Something to keep in mind is that Hlaalu's focus as a House is commerce, not xenophilia. They tend to be more open to outsiders as being xenophobic tends to be bad for trade. They do not need to actually like outlanders to interact with them in a friendly manner.
Aside from making good trade partners, the Camonna Tong specifically exists in Hlaalu lands because they have a storytelling purpose there. Namely, they represent the relatively two-faced nature of House Hlaalu as traders who are apparently more focused on profit than any ideals. Sload somewhat expands on that concept in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24220]House Hlaalu Brainstorming[/url] document.

History

@Gnomey - I prefer Sload's recent interpretation (I can't seem to find where he posted it) about suicide not being a commonplace occurrence among the Indoril. The mass suicides following Morrowind's annexation were a spontaneous anomaly that are not discussed in polite society.

Well, I did provide alternatives to suicide. That they would commit suicide was not really my point. My point was that I don't really see Indoril accepting the fact that they were tricked gracefully. And even if they were tricked and accepted that, you still have an Indoril family with Indoril customs and Indoril faith. How and why would they suddenly become fully Hlaalu? There is more to being the member of a House than simply a change in %Faction.

Everyone seems to be overlooking one specific detail of the current history section (which I had no part in coming up with, by the way): The Andrasil's were tricked into marrying into House Hlaalu, or at least that's my interpretation of what "tryst and intrigue" means in this case. As such, being good Indoril who follow the traditions of family lineage and blood-ties, they would have had no choice but to join with the Hlaalu (or maybe only the younger generation had to join, idk). In other words, it doesn't necessarily have to be something they willingly did.

I, at least, did not overlook it. But, as per my first post, I think it needs to be elaborated upon to make sense.

For example, perhaps the minor House of Andasril/Andas was never exclusively loyal to House Indoril, but always had some individuals or branches who were loyal to House Hlaalu. As House Hlaalu and House Indoril came into conflict, the minor House threatened to fall apart due to infighting. So Tholer Andasril, the head of the Indoril side of the House, made the unpopular decision to switch allegiances, bring effectively all of the minor House onto one side.
There is an easier way to handle things, too: perhaps Tholer Andas was never an Indoril himself, at least officially, but was the son of an Indoril. So the switch to Hlaalu happened over a generation gap.
The point being that switching Houses doesn't just happen. Normally, Houses do not accept people formerly from other Houses as members. Vanilla Morrowind effectively tries to hammer into the player's skull that "[...] once you are bound by oath to House [_______], no other Great House will accept you as a member."
I imagine that if it is a minor House switching allegiances it could work, but, again, I think that situation would require further elaboration.

Population

It might be useful to discuss how each Great House employs its slaves in a separate thread.

Yeah, I don't really see it as a big deal either, but it does need to be established before NPCing Hlaalu lands. Establishing it elsewhere seems like a good idea.

[RyanS]

Camonna Tong

Something to keep in mind is that Hlaalu's focus as a House is commerce, not xenophilia. They tend to be more open to outsiders as being xenophobic tends to be bad for trade. They do not need to actually like outlanders to interact with them in a friendly manner.
Aside from making good trade partners, the Camonna Tong specifically exists in Hlaalu lands because they have a storytelling purpose there. Namely, they represent the relatively two-faced nature of House Hlaalu as traders who are apparently more focused on profit than any ideals. Sload somewhat expands on that concept in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24220]House Hlaalu Brainstorming[/url] document.

Thanks EJRS and Gnomey. I'll keep this in mind!

History
I honestly think Yeti's idea on this tricked marriage is good. I doubt anyone would commit suicide over it.(The Indoril only commited suicide when basically the whole province was taken by the empire.) Also, I would say that over time, one could slowly change from Indoril to Hlaalu.

[Yeti]

The tricked marriage wasn't my idea. I honestly don't know who came up with the Andasril-Andas allegiance switching plan. Gnomey has raised good counterpoints to it, and I'm probably not the best person for defending/explaining it.

[Sload]

I don't think the specific mechanics of how this area because Hlaalu needs to be explained.

[RyanS]

Sorry, you raise some good points. I should have read the topic more thoroughly. I hope we could still fit something interesting in the concept's place, however.

[EJRS]

I don't think the specific mechanics of how this area because (I'm assuming "became" was meant here) Hlaalu needs to be explained.

I'd partially echo this sentiment. I think a simple, undramatic explanation would do just fine.

One thing I've been thinking about is what was actually here before the Hlaalu Andothren was built, i.e what exactly it was that house Hlaalu was taking over.
I think it is safe to assume that the temple was the first significant building at the site. But if there was ever any Indoril-style buildings, what happened to them?
I'd say it would be unlikely that anything beyond perhaps a single manor-house would have been demolished simply because the territory fell into Hlaalu hands.
One explanation would be that the Indoril buildings were destroyed in the war with the empire, thus leaving room for the Hlaalu to build a whole new town.
Even more likely, in my mind, is that this was, if anything, a smaller shack-village about the size of Ald Velothi having sprung up in connection to the temple. The shacks could believably have been torn down building by building to be replaced by sturdier Hlaalu-style dwellings.

I think this is important to establish in order to better determine in what way the territory fell into Hlaalu jurisdiction. Changing control of a well-established settlement is quite another thing than taking over a small fief.

@EJRS: Andothren exists on land that was once controlled by House Indoril in our mod's back-story. There needs to be some kind of explanation for how it became Hlaalu turf.

I had missed that. Any more info on this available? I'd like to read up on this.

[RyanS]

There is only one simple explanation to why Indoril land is being taken. It would be that while House Hlaalu is rising in power with trade/outside dealings, the Indoril are becoming weaker with the gradual downfall of the temple. House Indoril is too old fashion, and simply does not know what to do next. With less power, they lose more land. I doubt that with such a simple concept, anything would really need to be explained to the player.

Or again, this idea could just be left for the player to think of.

[Yeti]

You're probably right Sload. Best to leave it up to the player's imagination. I also don't think there's any need to explain what happen to the city's original architecture if it used to be an Indoril town.

I had missed that. Any more info on this available? I'd like to read up on this.

Try Sload's pdf files in the House Indoril/Hlaalu brainstorming threads.

[EJRS]

Further ramblings on the mechanics of storytelling

I think I was a bit unclear in what point I was trying to make by stressing the relevance of establishing what had been at the site of Andothren before the Hlaalu built their town. Sorry about that.
What I was trying to point out was that even though this doesn't need to be dealt with in any capacity at all in the ingame dialogue, and isn't of any particular relevance to the player, it does have an impact on how we create the characters populating Andothren.

For a concrete example: Tholer Andas. If we were to go with the 'tricked marriage'-concept, and have him be either a former Indoril or of Indoril stock, but still holding a high position within the town, wether this was formerly a small village, a manor or a Indoril-style town does matter.

Say for example that this was an Indoril town, which was then destroyed in the war and later rebuilt by the Hlaalu. Then Tholer or his father would likely have witnessed the destruction, as well as having spent some time exiled to some other location, perhaps organizing the other survivors.

Say instead that this was a small village fief, whose main significance was the religious site. Under such circumstances, Tholer would most likely not have lived at the site, but rather some other place, and would then have been relocated here to take over administration of the newly-built town.

Both of these possibilities would influence how the character is to be written. The objection might be raised that this doesn't really matter, since it can all be written to fit the background we want for Tholer. Fair enough, but it that case, this needs to be established before writing any of the other characters populating Andothren, since they would also be influeced by how we elect to handle this.
Clearly establishing the circumstances (for clarity: not at all limited to only the above examples) that are common to several or all of Andothrens population makes designing solid, believable characters and quests a smoother process, and minimizes the risk of contradictions and also of ending up with something that is just a bland mess of loose ends (which, sadly, is something I feel TR has at times tended towards in the past, seemingly owing to lack of planning/interest) instead of a convincing, characterful whole.

Another one for clarity: what I meant by "keeping the backstory simple" was "conceptually simple", not "vague" or "not really commented upon". Again, this is more for us inside the project than for future players of the mod.


@Yeti: I re-read both the Hlaalu and Indoril brainstorming threads as well as the planning documents. I found no mention of this. Is it safe to assume that this hasn't really been elaborated on, beyond that it shows how house Indoril is declining while Hlaalu is expanding?
I think that is just fine, I'm simply interested in it for the sake of clarity. (the -smiley looks proper demonic)

[Yeti]

Hlaalu have taken authority over much of the territory that was once Indoril – all of it west of the Thirr.

This is about it.

[Sload]

I don't know that it's necessary for the switch from Indoril to Hlaalu to be something within living memory as much as a kind of thing represented through a few OM ruins and dialog about "once..." The actually act of switching Indoril -> Hlaalu isn't important, what's important is that once upon a time, Indoril was much more powerful and Hlaalu was much less.

[Gnomey]

History

I can certainly agree on the concept of not making the switch itself important, as in the specific event as opposed to the process it represents. However, as EJRS points out, such developments can have impact on other aspects of the mod, such as the character of Tholer Andas. Whether he was formerly Indoril, of an Indoril family or unrelated to Indoril would, I'd imagine, have a large impact on how he is portrayed.
However, if Tholer Andas' background is never specifically explored in the mod, the issue once again becomes unimportant. (Going from Sload's post, for example, I assume Tholer Andas was never Indoril himself, and while his family may have been called Andasril before and may have belonged to House Indoril that will not really be relevant to current events).

One thing I would like to comment on is the lack of Indoril (as in MH) architecture, though. For the most part, this is likely more of a gameplay thing. House Hlaalu would have had no reason to tear down any MH buildings, unless they were in a truly terrible state of disrepair, and it seems rather silly to say that every single Indoril building west of the Thirr was torn down by the Empire when it invaded Morrowind.
Not to mention that the Armistice was signed to prevent a prolonged and bloody war, not to end one.
The simple fact of the matter is that the architecture represents the faction. Andothren has Hlaalu architecture because it is owned by House Hlaalu. Any attempt to break that rule, and a few ideas to that effect have been tossed around in TR's history if I remember correctly, tend to end up just looking bad and moddy.
Aside from that, it is quite possible that, when the Indoril owned those lands, there were no actual cities in the region, just Indoril manor estates and Velothi villages. But, again, the reason you don't see either of those is due to the above.

So, how about this for history:

Andothren and its surrounding territory once belonged to the Andasril family of House Indoril. At some point in the past the Hlaalu Council Company gained control of the land and the Indoril Andasril family became the Hlaalu Andas family. The Indoril still resent Hlaalu for the land-grab, and perhaps despise the Andas family in particular, though any reasons for the bad blood do not need to be explored. Tholer Andas is thoroughly Hlaalu in custom and practice.

(Though if the NPCer feels like injecting Tholer Andas with a bit of Indoril and is able to pull it off well, I'd be fine with it).

Of the other 10 sections in Yeti's post, only four have been commented on:

Population

This one requires a little more discussion. it is clear that there are a lot of Khajiit around Andothren, as they are raised in nearby plantations to work in those plantations and for export, but the question is whether a lot of Khajiit would be found in the city itself.
The presence of house-slaves can be discussed elsewhere, as it has bearing on all of House Hlaalu rather than just Andothren.
An obvious reason for there to be a larger Khajiit population would be due to freed slaves from the nearby plantations.

Imperial Guilds

So far, the discussion on the Fighter's Guild has not diverged from Yeti's original post. Really, the particulars should be discussed in an Andothren Fighter's Guild thread anyway. I think this section is fine as-is.

Catcatchers

Catcatchers are Hlaalu slave hunters. They have a presence in Andothren, due to the key role the city has in the Khajiit slave trade. In an age when raiding Elsweyr for slaves has become impractical, most catcatchers earn their living capturing runaway slaves and guarding slave caravan routes. They might have some overlap with Camonna Tong interests.

Note that I only removed a single word from Yeti's original text. If we have modern catcatchers, whose role is very different from those who raided Elsweyr in the past, I think it would make sense for some to be found in Andothren, due to that city's role in the slave trade. I like the idea of modern catcatchers, and as far as I can tell nobody has directly disagreed with that concept.

Commerce


Andothren’s wealth comes from its port and the produce of nearby plantations. The local Hlaalu plantations produce corkbulb, scrib cabbage and comberry. Most Hlaalu slaves are Khajiit born and raised as slaves in plantations like those surrounding Andothren. Many of them are then sold (or smuggled) off to other parts of Morrowind.

Through smart maneuvering, the Hlaalu have established monopoly rights on the export and import of certain goods. Both Andothren and the nearby Imperial citadel of Old Ebonheart command seafaring trade on the Inner Sea. They would likely be rivals if a Hlaalu-Imperial deal hadn’t been struck. Andothren trades a variety of goods such as foodstuff grown on Hlaalu plantations, Telvaani bugmusk and Khajiit slaves. In return, Old Ebonheart has retained international export rights on limited luxury goods like ebony, gems and Dwemer artifacts. As the Inner Sea has recently been ruled Imperial waters, that means that Old Ebonheart maintains an effective monopoly on the trade of those goods in perhaps Morrowind's most important trade region.

I changed the wording, but not really the meaning, behind the first paragraph. I don't think it is a stretch to say that Khajiit have children on plantations, as a self-sustained population of slaves would be beneficial for the plantation owners. I do not think it is a stretch to say that surplus Khajiit are then sold off.

I also made some alterations here and there to the second paragraph, as I felt it lacked clarity. Is it any better?

The Dwemer Ruin could also use a summary, which I might get around to later.

[Sload]

Gnomey is right about architecture. Architecture is a visual cue for the player to easily understand what faction the space is and to reinforce the ideological differences between the factions. The absolute correlation between factions and architecture sets should never be broken, and also never highlighted or explained as a real thing. Its basically a gameplay mechanic as much as the UI or the racial bonuses.

[Yeti]

How's this for rewriting the History Section?

History

Up until sometime after the empire's annexation of Morrowind, Andothren and its surrounding territory belonged to House Indoril. At some point the Hlaalu Council Company gained control of the area and Andothren became a bustling seaside port. The specific mechanics of how this came about don't need to be sketched out. Eventually Tholer Andas and his family became the city's most prominent family.

[Gnomey]

I like it. I do sort of like the concept of the Indoril Andasril becoming the Hlaalu Andas, whatever the process involved may have been, but either way it's unimportant and can be left out.

[Yeti]

First post updated to reflect feedback. If anyone has concerns with the current content of the above plan, please voice them.

[Gnomey]

This is a fairly specific question, so this might not be the place for it, but it does pertain to the question of the region's history, if only subtly:

History

Seneca is working on the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=323109#323109]i4-506-Hla[/url] claim, and it is currently a fairly large and well-tended Indoril ancestral tomb. I would consider calling it the 'Andasril Ancestral Tomb', which would be tended to by Indoril Andasrils living on the other side of the Thirr.

It could be hinted in-game that the Andasrils are related to Tholer Andas, though how closely should probably not be stated. It could also be implied that the tomb is partly in such good condition because it is under protection of Tholer Andas, or that most would-be looters keep clear of it in deference/fear of Tholer Andas. I think that should be the extent of attention the tomb should receive, though, as well as any general Andas-Andasril family background.

Edit: I'm mostly saying this for the record, but I fully approve of your updated plan, perhaps unsurprisingly because you did such a good job of incorporating my own suggestions.

Edit2: as seneca's tomb is still a WIP, it may naturally end up smaller, and in general that specific interior does not need to belong to the Andasril family even if we go with the above idea. The idea works for pretty much any large Indoril tomb in the area; if none of the current interiors fit that description we can always add a new one later on for that express purpose.

[Aeven]

Not entirely sure if this is the best thread, but Andothren needs a few cleanups as well as adding in the new interiors. I could do both, if people want me to.

Anything else probably too, if required, on an exterior/interior level.

[arvisrend]

Not entirely sure if this is the best thread, but Andothren needs a few cleanups as well as adding in the new interiors. I could do both, if people want me to.

Is the offer still standing, Aeven? With Sload saying that he has no newer file than the one he left on the forum, and no other progress happening, Andothren really needs a wakeup.

Also, what did we end up deciding about the Dwemer ruin?

[Gnomey]

I'm pretty certain no ideas have been put forward for the Dwemer ruin as a whole since my last post in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24336]this thread[/url]. There was some discussion on the beacon itself in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24569]this thread[/url], but I don't think that should get in the way of changing the Dwemer ruin; the lighthouse can either be left unlit or with a placeholder beacon until we decide what to put there.

[arvisrend]

From a brief discussion with Swiftoak on IRC, I just realized that the version of Andothren in the current North AT merge *is* the newest one. Is this true?

[01:29] Swiftoak: hlaalu banner on the south end waterfall needs to be done
[01:29] Swiftoak: dock needs an int
[01:30] Swiftoak: north area (northwest) town part needs some detail

About the ints now, what ints are missing from Andothren? Which ints should be changed or recycled?

[Gnomey]

I am pretty sure the version in the merge is the newest one, yes. It's certainly the version we'll be working on.

As far as ints are concerned, I'll try and look at it, but I can't promise anything concrete before New Years. That being said, as it is quite likely that more buildings will still be added, I don't see a great hurry on figuring those out. I rather think we should focus on putting together a plan for the exterior modder to work off of. Sload's post from the 29. of January in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24281]this thread[/url] and the following posts make for a good start.
Without putting too much thought into it, my first inclination would be to go for something like this:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/AndothrenCityPlan01.png.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/th_AndothrenCityPlan01.png[/img][/url]

Where green is a very outward-oriented district, with guilds and a market and outlanders; brown is the lower class, mostly Dunmer; yellow is a business area oriented more towards servicing the city than trade; blue is a mix of MC and UC, mostly Hlaalu-affiliated, with a lot of business owners of varying prominence; red would be an upperclass outlander district with big fancy houses and gardens; and grey would be a district of sailors, ruffians, disaffected paupers, and in general the sort of people who hate the people in the red area and support the Camonna Tong.

Note that, other than perhaps the red district, I think there should be a good deal of mixing between districts; one would find outlanders outside of the green and red districts, Camonna Tong outside of the grey district, etc.

[arvisrend]

I disagree with your not seeing a great hurry -- IMHO this is the least finished part of North AT, and any progress here would be a noticeable step forward for the whole project. But I'm glad to see that you have an idea of what is needed; too many people have lost track of Andothren.

Nice map! Will the grey zone (which, I assume, will mostly consist of new ints) be Hlaalu houses or huts on stilts?

I remember not merging some ints because they were Andothren. Should I merge them or are they still subject to revision? Also, do you have estimates on the number of ints we will need, and how many of them will be Hlaalu ints? Should I start looking into showcases (we have several Hlaalu ones)? More importantly, are exterior bugs in and around Andothren now fair game to fix? Are ints which are currently merged AND linked going to stay around in the places they currently are in, or will they be moved, or even unmerged?

[Gnomey]

All I meant was that I don't think we can really judge what to do with the interiors until we know how the final exterior and concept for the city looks like, and as such the latter should be a priority.

I think the grey zone should have Hlaalu structures. I think some of the showcases should work quite well here, as I believe a few of them had fishing nets and the like. I mistook you as meaning Hlaalu houses on stilts, by the way, which I think is another interesting concept worth exploring...

You can merge ints if you like, I'm just not sure how easy it will be. Of the houses without a label, the one south of i4-74 is i4-76 and I believe i4-66 is another.
My estimate for new interiors would be 10-20, but it's only a rough estimate.
Exterior bugs are fair game.
As for your last question, this is sort of what I want to figure out by planning Andothren. I'd leave them where they are for now, though. For the record, I do think all of Sload's suggested adjustments are still sound:

-i4-89 should be moved and that building should not be a pawnbroker.
-i4-64 should not be an alchemist, but that area is still in an early stage of production & we should figure that whole area out (its a recent addition to the city to deal with building spacing issues).
-i4-71 or i4-80 should become an alchemist to replace i4-64 & solidify that street as a merchants' street.

[arvisrend]

All I meant was that I don't think we can really judge what to do with the interiors until we know how the final exterior and concept for the city looks like, and as such the latter should be a priority.

Ah! Yes, agreed on this. What remains to be done on the latter part? Your PNG suggests that the districts are settled (including the choice of architecture); should we discuss what purposes the buildings should have?

I think the grey zone should have Hlaalu structures. I think some of the showcases should work quite well here, as I believe a few of them had fishing nets and the like.

Great to hear!

I mistook you as meaning Hlaalu houses on stilts, by the way, which I think is another interesting concept worth exploring...

Those stilts hopefully being stone pillars... yes, that's an interesting idea. (Although we would need to figure out the right statics for that, and the tendency of Hlaalu ext shells to have huge foundations will be a problem.)

I guess I'll wait until we know more before changing to the ext, particularly because my issues relate to the NW part which will undergo revisions anyway.

[Yeti]

Is anyone up to revisiting the summary in the first post to see which parts of it we want to keep, which ones we want to update and which ones we want to discard? I'd love to see some progress made on developing a Master Plan for Andothren.