Indoril Settlements

[Gnomey]

First of all, this chat log was already linked in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24011]House Indoril Brainstorming[/url] thread, but as it basically leads right into this thread it is worth glancing at again.

How Indoril settlements look like is actually a very major topic that needs to be discussed so that about half of what is currently being worked on in TR can move forward. I'm talking about things like the above House Indoril Brainstorming, the changes to various Indoril settlements like Roa Dyr, the various ideas floating about to change or rework regions like Alt Orethan and 'Inlet Bog', as well as the topic of what we are going to do with Almalexia. So please do contribute to this discussion.

[url=http://newindicator.ucsd.edu/~personal/mwsettlements.txt]This document[/url] presents the problem nicely, noting that that document is not TR's official concrete plan on how to handle settlements for now and ever. What the document illustrates is the conceptual hole we need to fill in this thread.

There are two parts to this topic: establishing what types of settlements are found in Indoril lands and establishing what the internal make-up of those settlement types will be. In short, this discussion is about figuring out what classes and castes exist in Indoril society and how they are divided between and within settlements.

To start with, here is a non-comprehensive list of Indoril settlements, as they stand. I don't think I missed any large settlements, but I probably missed some smaller hamlets and the like:

[spoiler]Almalexia (Tier I) - MH tileset

MH Town (Tier III/IV)
Akamora - built on and around a pillar of rock
Bosmora - amongst trees
Enamor Dayn - getting axed
Gorne - rather small village on an island
Meralag
Roa Dyr
Sailen

Velothi Town (Tier III/IV)
Othrensis - large Velothi settlement

Shack Village (Tier IV/V)
Darnim - shack village
Dondril - shack village
Dreynim - small shack village
Hlersis - cave shack hamlet
Lan Orethan 30, -25 - shack hamlet
Rilsoan - shack village on the Thirr
Tahvel - mining hamlet

'Feudal Hamlet' (Tier V) - Velothi and shack tilesets
Erethan Plantation - change to large, fortified hamlet?
Evos - scattered Velothi buildings
Seitur - a rather large fishing-and-corkbulb hamlet
Selyn - mostly shack village
Velonith - Velothi and shack

'Estate Manor' (Tier V) - MH tileset
Ayemar - fortress
Denaven Manor - fortified manor
Ilvi Manor - fortified manor
Nethril Plantation - needs to be changed from a plantation
Saveri Estate
Seyda Vano - player stronghold
Tomaril Manor[/spoiler]

Let's run down the settlement types listed above, in no particular order:

Tier V
[spoiler]Tier V settlements are fairly easy to sort out, as I think we have more or less reached a consensus on them: small pseudo-feudal hamlets inhabited by farmers and slaves, as well as (if you count them as 'settlements') the rural estate manors of Indoril nobility. There is still a question of the internal demographics of Tier V settlements, but I'll get to that later.[/spoiler]

Shack Villages
Then there are the shack villages. Should they be there? I think they do fill a particular niche, but I will get to that later, too.

Tier II
Indoril currently has no Tier II settlements, from my understanding of the term. Akamora may qualify, though.

Tier I
[spoiler]Almalexia is the only Tier I settlement, and most are probably familiar with how its planning has been going lately. (Not at all). I'm hoping that this thread, by clarifying what sort of people would live in Almalexia, will form a solid basis to finally try and achieve some resolution on the topic of how we should handle Almalexia. For the time being, I'd suggest not directly discussing Almalexia, both because we don't have much to go on yet and because it might derail the discussion. I'm actually far more worried about the Tier III settlements, anyway, at the moment.[/spoiler]

Tier III
[spoiler]First of all, one stands out like a sore thumb: Othrensis, the only significantly large Velothi settlement in Indoril lands. Why does it exist? Unless it has a good reason to exist in its current size and tileset, I'd suggest either shrinking it into a Velothi hamlet (perhaps still on the larger end) or changing it to MH architecture.
The rest are frankly a bit of a mess, being neither visually nor thematically consistent. Akamora is an egg mining town built around a rock spire, which rather inexplicably is the second largest Indoril settlement after Almalexia despite being nestled in the Mephalain Mountains, with a Fighters Guild and Mages Guild.
Bosmora is inexplicably a trade town despite being nestled in the middle of Lan Orethan. If the roads it is on are supposed to be major they don't really look it, and there is a lovely river not two cells away which would, in my opinion, link Bosmora up to a better trade network than the dirt roads it has now.
Gorne is a fishing village with a lot of history, while Merelag appears to rely on trade and agriculture. (Which is very Indoril, actually, though I don't really like the town's suburban look, and the fact that the locals call it a "fine example of the refined Indoril way of life" gives me the impression that its image needs updating). Roa Dyr is another trade city, while Sailen appears to primarily be a farming town. Notice the theme here? because I don't.
Note that I'm not really criticizing any of the individual settlements here. I like Akamora for instance. Nor am I saying that the oddities I pointed out need to be removed. That isn't the purpose of this exercise, as such. The purpose of this exercise it to ensure that there is a consistent theme to all Indoril settlements, at least of a certain type. The theme does not have to be economic, nor does it have to be tied to demographics or anything else. It's only once we've settled on a theme that we have to take a look at what doesn't fit that theme and, if it's bad enough to need fixing, decide how to fix it.[/spoiler]

So how do we unify all of that?

Tier I
Almalexia is Almalexia.

Tier II
House Indoril either has no Tier II settlements, or we bump some of the Tier IIIs up. Originally I would have actually preferred if Indoril had all Tier IIs instead of Tier IIIs, rather than the other way around as it is now, but lately the trend seems to be to spread the Indoril population mostly between rural farming hamlets and Almalexia, which I am quite alright with.

Tier IV/V
[spoiler]The way I see it, shack villages come into their own in terrain that does not favour agriculture: in mountains, swamps and forests. Indoril shack villages are typically either mining villages or fishing villages. Dondril is a notable exception, and one I'd actually consider enforcing, namely by stating that Dondril is inhabited by Indoril refugees hailing from Old Ebonheart and the western side of the Thirr. Shacks also mix fairly well with Velothi, in my opinion, as seen in a few of the farming hamlets.
Which brings me to the topic of farming hamlets. I have three questions concerning them: should they have hetmen? Basically a servant of the local lord who keeps the locals in line. Should they have some form of local priest or temple? Note that the hetmen and priest roles could overlap. Finally, not really a question, I think slave pens should be added to the hamlets. Ideally just [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/page-14-0]bamboo cages[/url], (they don't need to be nearly as large as in that link), but shacks or something similar should also work.[/spoiler]

Tier III
As if I haven't said it enough, I was gone for most of the NPCing of Indoril settlements, so I am fairly ignorant of those settlements and their background. It would be much appreciated if people who worked on or are otherwise familiar with the various settlements were to pitch in.
[spoiler]From glancing at them in the CS, the situation is in some ways not as bad as I had expected, and in other ways just as bad as expected. There aren't as many manors as I had expected to find, generally two or three for every settlement. Still unusually many considering the small size of Indoril settlements, but not terrible. Some towns have more of a middle-class, some more of a lower-class. In either case, though, the building exteriors are often indistinguishable between classes, which has up to this point been the great challenge of Indoril architecture, leading to many questionable forays into style mixing which have finally pretty much all been removed.
So we end up with various questions: should towns have nobility, and if so what do they live off of and what do they do? Should towns have a middle-class, and if so what do they live off of and what do they do? Should towns have a lower-class, and if so what do they live off of and what do they do? Should towns have priests? What about temples? Where do the guards live? What is the unifying theme of all Indoril towns?
Without getting into too much detail, (I plan to post more on my ideas later; this post is long enough as it is, anyway), my own thinking would be something like this:

Yes, Indoril towns have nobles. They do not get their wealth from surrounding feudal hamlets, because there are already more than enough estate manors to cover those. Instead, they get their wealth from local artisans and trade. They are expected to perform acts of charity, act as spiritual leaders to the local populace in some capacity and actively engage in Indoril cultural pursuits. (Which would be more the case in Alt Orethan and less so in Lan Orethan, where they are more reclusive, going by the current plan). Each settlement would have two or three nobles -- in short, as is currently generally the case -- and they would administer over the town as a council.
Yes, Indoril towns have a middle-class. More specifically, a lower-middle-class. They are merchants and artisans who produce a variety of wares from local products. (Which mostly come from nearby shack villages). They would generally live in boardinghouses, like all non-nobles. (This would require a lot of work, and may not be viable. I won't insist on it, but if artisans and merchants own private houses like nobles I think their role in Indoril society should be inflated accordingly, and that the house exteriors should somehow be set apart from manors visually).
Yes, Indoril towns have a lower-class. And I'll admit here that I say so mostly because I think lower-class can, in fact, be pulled off well with the MH tileset when properly approached, an idea I'll expand on in another post. They would almost certainly require new buildings (I don't mean models, just references) and interiors, though. Luckily, we're not being swamped by interior work at the moment. These would be the worst-off 'Indoril' (not referring to House members, here, but rather free Dunmer inhabiting Indoril lands). They would rely on Temple charity and local nobility for support, making them dependant and often fiercely loyal to their benefactors, and would either work in one of the manufactories, as dockworkers, as peddlers, as beggars, as fishers, or they might be members of certain tongs, such as thief tongs, with varying levels of criminality.
Yes, Indoril towns have priests and temples. The priests would live in the temples, and they would rely largely on donations from the local nobles to keep the temples running. These temples are where the rural farmers go to get cured when they're sick, are where the poor generally receive their charity, may act as orphanages (not that there will be any children, of course) and would also act as schools. I'd actually advocate giving Indoril temples a unique look (not new models, just slightly different visuals for the exterior, and maybe sometimes walled-off courtyards or the like as in [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/page-13]this concept[/url], though not as large).
Guards would probably live in guard towers, though these would generally function more as barracks and watchtowers than defensive structures. One or two towers should do, much as is currently the case.

As such, the primary unifying elements of Indoril towns would be connection to trade, internal industry and a unique hierarchy. I also would like (most of) the cities to be more visually unified, but I will not get into that yet. (Either way, I'd want to toss together a sample plugin before I elaborate on my own ideas).[/spoiler]

[Yeti]

Indoril Cities Overall

The inconsistent nature of Indoril settlements on the mainland poises a clear challenge. With a massive city like Almalexia serving as House Indoril's capital, I don't see the need for Tier II settlements to go along with it, but the Tier III settlements need a definable purpose within Indoril society. I guess I kind of see them as concentrations of Indoril bureaucratic institutions, maintaining law and order over regions under the House's control. They're like nodes on an administration network. Ultimately, they should represent the main theme of House Indoril:

The Indoril are therefore all about the maintenance of law and order. They are a society of regulators. It is also a house in which actions are highly ritualized. Deviations from determined law are rigorously corrected and denied as incoherent.

I like the idea that urban Indoril nobles get their income from local artisans and craftsmen.

City Specific Stuff (probably shouldn't dominate discussion at this point).

The rest are frankly a bit of a mess, being neither visually nor thematically consistent. Akamora is an egg mining town built around a rock spire, which rather inexplicably is the second largest Indoril settlement after Almalexia despite being nestled in the Mephalain Mountains, with a Fighters Guild and Mages Guild.

Akamora probably stands out the most in regards to not fitting inside the Indoril motif, along with being an oddly designed city in and of itself. I have no idea what we should do with it.

one stands out like a sore thumb: Othrensis, the only significantly large Velothi settlement in Indoril lands. Why does it exist? Unless it has a good reason to exist in its current size and tileset, I'd suggest either shrinking it into a Velothi hamlet (perhaps still on the larger end) or changing it to MH architecture.

Othrensis isn't that large once you cut away the MH architecture. If we're going to build the Alt Orethan up as a densely populated area, having a larger village at the center of a large tract of fertile land doesn't seem out of the place to me. It should stay Velothi to be a nice change of pace from the overabundance of MH architecture in central Morrowind, and because it's a nice underutilized set.

Bosmora is inexplicably a trade town despite being nestled in the middle of Lan Orethan. If the roads it is on are supposed to be major they don't really look it, and there is a lovely river not two cells away which would, in my opinion, link Bosmora up to a better trade network than the dirt roads it has now.

I don't think making it a trade route oriented town makes much sense given its isolated location. I'd say it would work better as a market town servicing the region's farms and estates. To reinforce this, repurpose the rather out-of-place indoor market, which has always struck me as too large for a town the size of Bosmora, into something more localized.

Indoril shack villages are typically either mining villages or fishing villages. Dondril is a notable exception, and one I'd actually consider enforcing, namely by stating that Dondril is inhabited by Indoril refugees hailing from Old Ebonheart and the western side of the Thirr. Shacks also mix fairly well with Velothi, in my opinion, as seen in a few of the farming hamlets.

For some reason that backstory strikes as rather moddy. I think it's best not to go into too much detail concerning where the populations of certain villages came from. The Hlaalu takeover of the western side of the Thirr should be out of living memory anyway, at least when it comes to peasants.

[Gnomey]

Indoril Cities Overall

The inconsistent nature of Indoril settlements on the mainland poises a clear challenge. With a massive city like Almalexia serving as House Indoril's capital, I don't see the need for Tier II settlements to go along with it, but the Tier III settlements need a definable purpose within Indoril society. I guess I kind of see them as concentrations of Indoril bureaucratic institutions, maintaining law and order over regions under the House's control. They're like nodes on an administration network. Ultimately, they should represent the main theme of House Indoril:
[...]

I like and agree with this assessment, but would like to expand on it by saying that towns could, in particular, serve as nodes for the exchange of goods. So most of the produce from the feudal hamlets would go to the nearest town, (either through or past the lord of the estate; either way the lord gets his cut), from where it is shuttled off to where it needs to go. (The town, of course, also keeps its cut of the goods).
Conversely, various necessities and luxuries would find their way into the towns from along the trade networks, and would then get distributed over the surrounding region. (Mainly to the estate manors, not the hamlets).
In short, towns are not only necessary to protect the law and order of Indoril lands, they are the House's lifeline.

City Specific Stuff (probably shouldn't dominate discussion at this point).

Agreed. I think discussing specifics is fine to a certain extent, but should be kept to a minimum, and shouldn't get too specific.

Akamora probably stands out the most in regards to not fitting inside the Indoril motif, along with being an oddly designed city in and of itself. I have no idea what we should do with it.

One idea would be for each town to represent its region. This actually could work out surprisingly well: Akamora is in the Mephalain Mountains, Sailen is in Sacred Lands (not one of the Indoril core regions, but ah well), Bosmora and Gorne are in Lan Orethan, (but Gorne is literally and likely figuratively insular), Merelag and Othrensis are in Alt Orethan (but Othrensis is Velothi) and Roa Dyr is in the Thirr River Valley. There is another town apparently planned for Lan Orethan, at least according to [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21761]this map[/url], but it is close to the Deshaan Plains.
It would probably come off as contrived, though. Then again, it doesn't need to be one town per region, and we could try to keep it subtle.

Othrensis isn't that large once you cut away the MH architecture. If we're going to build the Alt Orethan up as a densely populated area, having a larger village at the center of a large tract of fertile land doesn't seem out of the place to me. It should stay Velothi to be a nice change of pace from the overabundance of MH architecture in central Morrowind, and because it's a nice underutilized set.

Othrensis is the third largest Indoril city after Akamora at the moment going by interior count. And that's not counting the MH buildings. It currently has 28 Velothi interiors. The thing is that Indoril buildings are so imposing that towns made with the set look larger than they are, while Velothi buildings are so unassuming that cities look smaller than they are. The fourth largest city is Roa Dyr, which currently has 21 interiors not counting the shacks and 25 with the shacks. The others don't reach 20 interiors.
And changes of pace for the sake of being changes of pace usually don't work well in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion. If we establish that rural serfs live in Velothi buildings and city-dwellers live in MH buildings, Othrensis comes off as confusing things for no good reason. Unless, again, a good reason is supplied.
Edit: it may be possible to break Othrensis off into several large-ish hamlets scattered around the valley, though, which would remain consistent with the convention of Velothi buildings in Indoril lands while still providing a reprieve from MH towns.

I don't think making it a trade route oriented town makes much sense given its isolated location. I'd say it would work better as a market town servicing the region's farms and estates. To reinforce this, repurpose the rather out-of-place indoor market, which has always struck me as too large for a town the size of Bosmora, into something more localized.

I could see this working. I would argue that all Indoril cities should probably fulfill that role to some extent, but having Bosmora be a rather sleepy town could work well considering that it is in Lan Orethan.
That being said, if it were connected to the nearby river it would not be as isolated. According to that map I linked, the river in question appears to be the Orethan, a fact I had somehow overlooked. Equally, looking at the linked map, Bosmora could be connected to the Padomaic Ocean opposite Gorne (I think the idea was already mentioned). Or, I'd argue, we could do both, perhaps even creating a canal that links the two bodies of water.

For some reason that backstory strikes as rather moddy. I think it's best not to go into too much detail concerning where the populations of certain villages came from. The Hlaalu takeover of the western side of the Thirr should be out of living memory anyway, at least when it comes to peasants.

I certainly think the potential for it to be moddy is there. I think an important factor is whether that is Dondril's backstory or whether it is the settlement's reason for existing. I was going for the latter.
Rather than being something some old inhabitant of Donril might mention in a throwaway line, the whole point for Dondril existing would be that it is home to descendants of those who were expelled from their homes west of the river Thirr, or from Old Ebonheart, or both.
In which case it would be a likely candidate for being featured in one or several questlines of the involved factions, or in misc quests that expand on the Indoril-Hlaalu conflict for flavour.
The alternative, as I see it, is to bring Dondril in line with the other shack villages, which it does not currently appear to be to me. Or axe it, but I don't think anyone wants to do that. Or come up with a better reason for Dondril to be exceptional.

[Gnomey]

I took the liberty of shuffling you post off to [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=322366]this thread[/url], Yeti, I hope you don't mind. As I think it still applies to the broader topic, I'll quote it here, though:

The alternative, as I see it, is to bring Dondril in line with the other shack villages, which it does not currently appear to be to me. Or axe it, but I don't think anyone wants to do that. Or come up with a better reason for Dondril to be exceptional.

I don't see Dondril as exceptional at all. I see it as just another farming hamlet on the Indoril side of the Thirr River Valley, like the ones south of Roa Dyr, only large enough to warrant naming the exterior cell. It will look much less exceptional once we remove the palisade.

I think giving in-depth back story on what happen to the Indoril peasant population on the other side of the Thirr falls on the side of adding too much minuscule detail. We're not making Morrowind as it theoretically exists in the fictional world of Tamriel. We're creating a scaled computer game version of it, which necessitates paraphrasing its history.

Discussion of specific settlements, however, should take place in appropriate sectional threads. The Othrensis discussion, for instance, can continue [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24526]here[/url]. Focus on painting Indoril settlements in broad strokes in this thread (I feel a little silly suggesting this, seeing as I've been the one focusing on settlement-specific stuff so far).

Further discussion of Dondril can continue in that thread.

[Gnomey]

While I feel bad for triple-posting, this topic does need a bit of a bump.
After making this thread, I decided to mess around with Sailen. I attached the plugin below. Note that the file is very dirty and shouldn't be used for anything other than looking and testing. I momentarily forgot how Morrowind plugins worked, leading to my spending much of a day trying to get the file halfway presentable. As it is, most of the interiors only contain a doormarker. (Activate the doors in-game to find out which!)

So as to what I did: first of all, I created a small river running through Sailen to the ocean. I then shifted Sailen's buildings around a lot, replacing a few with different models. Other than those buildings I replaced I deleted very few objects. Because of that, I was able to mostly finished the overhaul within four days. The work I did is much more extensive than what I would expect Indoril towns to require.
What I would still need to do is detail the new riverbed and add a sample Velothi hamlet where the farmhouses were. And maybe make a pathgrid for Sailen.

Here are some general screenshots of the town:

[spoiler][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/Sailen.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_Sailen.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenFront.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenFront.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenSiltstrider.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenSiltstrider.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenCanal.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenCanal.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenWaterfalls.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenWaterfalls.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenStream.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenStream.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenFlora.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenFlora.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenBridges.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenBridges.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenSquare.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenSquare.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenBack.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenBack.jpg[/img][/url][/spoiler]

I tried to cram as many of the conventions I want to discuss into Sailen as possible, but a few are still missing. All of these conventions are just proposals, naturally. Going through the ones that are present:

Manors:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenManors.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenManors.jpg[/img][/url]

Manors are the homes of the settlement's ruling elite. They would make full use of the MH set's visual opulence. When possible, they should be grouped together and possibly raised over the other buildings in the settlement.

[spoiler]As I stated in my earlier post, I'm thinking that each Indoril town would have about two to three manors, whose nobles would form a municipal council. Towns could have 'Council Club's or maybe 'Council House's for that purpose, but really any outdoor or indoor sitting area should do. EX_MH_bazaar_booth_01 or a pagoda would work quite well.

The naming convention for manors would be '[family name] Manor', naturally, and just as obviously rich furniture should almost always be used.[/spoiler]

Industry:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenIndustry.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenIndustry.jpg[/img][/url]

Industry buildings are buildings that contain merchants. They would tend to be located on or near the major waterways or roads that go through the town, would generally contain one to three floors and would typically contain RM furniture.

[spoiler]While there would probably still be some private shops, I'm thinking that most of the shops would be manufactories. All that that means is that the shops would either tend to contain no beds or several, and that they would tend to contain several NPCs, some of them poor and some of them not quite as poor.

The naming convention would be '[trade]s' Hall'; for example 'Tailors' Hall'. This is taken from Mournhold's 'Craftsmen's Hall'. General merchants would generally be located in 'Tradehouse's, as seen on Vvardenfell. These would be centers of municipal import and export, which is only really important as far as naming conventions go. None of this would be explained to the player in-game anyway.

The actual industries involved could somewhat depend on the location, for example Bosmora might have a Carpenters' Hall containing RM furniture.[/spoiler]

Dockside:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenDockside.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenDockside.jpg[/img][/url]

Not all Indoril cities would have docks, (though looking at the Indoril towns Akamora is the only one with a real reason not to have a dock), but I would like water to be present in all Indoril cities in some form. This is for two reasons: it looks good, and it is already pretty much the case, probably because it looks good.

I think Indoril docks should contain a variety of small watercraft. (Rowboats, skiffs and gondolas). Some docksides might have warehouses and the like. I don't have much more to say about them.

Flats:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenFlats.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenFlats.jpg[/img][/url]

Middle-class Dunmer, mainly the aforementioned craftsmer, would often live in flats. Windows and lights should be used more sparingly, and the interiors might contain either RM or poor furniture. Especially in larger cities, (well, the largest city), the buildings might form apartment blocks. Inns and 'Corner Club's would tend to be located near flats.

The naming convention of the individual interiors could be something like 'Sailen East-Up' or 'Sailen East Top' or something else that's similar to how the houses in the St. Olms and Delyn cantons were called in Vivec.

Enclaves:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenEnclave.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenEnclave.jpg[/img][/url]

Enclaves are one concept that I did not properly explore in the plugin. They might also not be very common. Basically, they would be small, insular clusters of houses containing members belonging to a certain group. The group might be a minor House, or a Tong, or a trade, or really anything else. I'll probably more fully explore my concept for them at a later date.

Guard Towers:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenGuardTower.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenGuardTower.jpg[/img][/url]

One of the two interiors I made for Sailen is a guard tower, because there wasn't one already. As I tossed it together in an hour or two, I don't expect it to win any awards for interiors, but it serves its purpose.

[spoiler]I don't have much new to say on the topic of guard towers: they would act primarily as guard barracks, often not having much of a defensive role, and Indoril settlements would have at least one. Guards may or may not be from lesser noble families. RM furniture would probably be the norm, if not poor furniture. The naming convention would be 'Guard Tower' or, if there are several, '[cardinal direction] Guard Tower' or something to that effect, same as in Vvardenfell.[/spoiler]

Temple

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenTemple.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenTemple.jpg[/img][/url]

The only real difference between Indoril temples and temples elsewhere would be that they have slightly different exterior trappings. I'm not too sure if I'm happy with the above look, but it does its job:

[spoiler]The blue buttresses make the temple look less jarring alongside MH architecture, and the lack of a front courtyard, aside from being an obvious method of visual differentiation from temples elsewhere, also serves to make the temple seem more like a part of the settlement, rather than being apart from the settlement.[/spoiler]

Tenements:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenTenement.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenTenement.jpg[/img][/url]

Perhaps the most important conventions that need to be established relate to poor housing, which the MH set isn't exactly designed for. As such, the second interior I made includes various ideas for making Indoril interiors and exteriors look poor. Here are screenshots of the rooms in the interior:

[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenTenement1.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenTenement1.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenTenement2.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenTenement2.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Sailen/SailenTenement3.jpg.html][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Sailen/th_SailenTenement3.jpg[/img][/url]

I think some of the conventions work well and others not so much. I'd like to hear some opinions on this topic in particular.

[spoiler]Basically, poor people live in tenement buildings. The buildings only have slit windows, have very few doors and rooms, and individual living-quarters are split off by guar screens. The ceiling is low, the corners are angular, there are no stairs, only trapdoors (none featured in this int, though), and furniture is either poor or EX.

Those are all ideas I tried out, and some may work better than others. I consider the lack of glass windows and stairs as well as the low ceilings to be the more important points. But even more importantly, the tenement buildings should be fairly large, and contain many families.

Naming conventions might be something like '[something] Tenement, [ordinal number] Floor', for example 'St. Aralor Tenement, First Floor'.[/spoiler]

Edit: added a little to the section on tenements.

[Sload]

This is an admirable effort, Gnomey, to solve a really intractable problem. But there is something thin about it, isn't there? As far as I can see the main addition here is that Indoril nobles own the labor of artisans and craftsmen just like the own the labor of farmers. I'm afraid it doesn't really resolve the Indoril problem sufficiently, just sort of attempts to hide it.

I keep returning to the only solution that has made sense to me, a solution that I know people will not like. Some of you already know it. First, let's return to the nature of the Indoril problem.

"The Indoril problem"

Every house other than the Indoril has a society that I don't only understand - I can feel it innately when I look at their settlements, when I learn about their archtypes and major characters and so on. But the Indoril do not do that. A Redoran Tier I/II settlement is the homestead of March or the clanhall of the Redoran War Council. A Telvanni Tier III is a wizard's tower. A Hlaalu Tier IV settlement is a farming village where crops are brought to market. As we can see, the Indoril have Almalexia (which is of dubious identity in a certain sense) and a bunch of Tier III settlements that don't share any feature.

This problem has not been isolated to settlements, though I think they are the worst of it (and we'll see why in a moment). A year ago, [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23967]this problem was one of the first things I saw[/url] when I got back to TR. When I set out to start the threads on each house, [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24011]for Indoril I fixated on the idea of "law"[/url]. But in my opinion, nothing anything we came up with was really adequate. It didn't just "make sense" the way I feel the other houses "make sense."

Every house is so clear in its identity that I think it can be summed up in a word. Let me go for the other four houses: profit, defense, tradition, autonomy. Do I need to say which is which? I think the word for the Indoril is govern. The Indoril are the Upholders of the Faith, Kin to the Tribunal, who Keep the Law and Ensure Order. Sentences with capital letters Come Naturally to them. Temple priests are mostly from Indoril families and the Indoril were for thousands of years the unchallenged power in Morrowind around which the other houses orbited. And this is the problem with that description: it adequately describes only one class of Indoril. We have a vision not of a whole society, but of a class within a society. The Indoril don't fill out vertically. I think that is the origin of "the Indoril problem."

A radical solution that you will probably not like

Recognizing this about the Indoril, we could just not fill them out vertically. "House Indoril" is a word for the elite. There are no Indoril who are not feathered tyrants for whom trumpeters clear the path of peasants as they stroll with their retinue through the streets.

We do this with NPCs. Every member of House Indoril wears a subset of clothes with a retex to give them a consistent color scheme (probably predominantly white, which we have as their color). Every member of House Indoril's name is given in full - that is, preceeded by their house name, Indoril Draler Ilvi, Indoril Neril Sevuro, et cetera. When you meet an Indoril, you know it.

Now here is where you stop liking it - only one Indoril city. Almalexia. Keep the MH style manors and castles like Ayemar, sure. But convert every city to Velothi. This actually isn't a very long list as far as I can tell:
[spoiler]Akamora -- can't get a quick int count, probably the largest & hardest
Sailen -- 12 ints I think?
Gorne -- 12 ints
Bosmora -- 12 ints
Roa Dyr -- 22 ints, also stylistically difficult to adjust.
Wilderness Non-Estate -- unknown, going to guess on the order of 40.[/spoiler]Keep in mind that I'm not saying delete these settlements, I'm saying make them Velothi settlements, like many settlements in Indoril territory already are. This is not starting from the ground up.

This has a certain rationality.

• There are already Velothi settlements throughout Indoril lands. The only other house this is the case for is Telvanni, which has a clear reason for it - the Telvanni don't have commoners. In a very different way, because the Indoril are truly the antithesis of the Telvanni, the Indoril don't either.
  
  The Hlaalu and Dres sets are both very clearly related to the Velothi set in their own ways. The Redoran set also shares the Velothi set's color tones. The MH set is the real oddball here (other than the sadrith towers of course), with its ornate finishings and purple buildings. Really, the MH set is inappropriate for commoner villages, which is probably why so many people have intuited toward using shacks and velothi buildings.
  
  This increases the awesomeness of Almalexia, our key city by making it unique in the way Vivec was in original Morrowind (only it won't be boring in the way Vivec was in original Morrowind).
  
  This gives the Indoril a clear identity, which is of course the whole point of it. They are the center of Morrowind, they rule it, the people who live in other styles of buildings are just their subjects, whether shacks, Velothi buildings, or the styles of other houses. The Indoril building, the Indoril clothes, the Indoril name, they will all come together to send a clear message - this character is superlatively important, certainly more important than you. It will make "Indoril" the ordinators of the new, complete Morrowind.

Before dismissing this out of hand as wacky and extreme and Sload, why not get a list of MH buildings that would have to be replaced? I even think Gorne, at least, could be reconcepted as an estate and not a town. Let's see how much work this would really be, because I think it could work really really well.

[Gnomey]

I'll pitch in here and say that I think the one-(MH-)city solution, while far from my favourite solution, is certainly a solution to the Indoril problem. The MH set was designed 1. for Mournhold and 2. for the elite, so the most natural way to use it would be for Almalexia, and the Indoril elite.
Naturally what I think a lot of us would rather have had by this point would be a separate Indoril set, perhaps something between MH and OM, leaving the MH set exclusively for Almalexia, or even inner Almalexia.

In a way my personal goal in this thread is to see if we can't figure out a more palatable alternative in which we can keep most of our work while still solving the Indoril problem. That may very well just result in my grasping for straws, though. (Or, as you say, in hiding the problem rather than solving it).

There is one large problem with the one-city solution, though, which is that saying that our only (MH) city is Almalexia doesn't really help us in figuring out what we are supposed to do with Almalexia, at least to me. If there is an established identity for Indoril (MH) cities, I think it would be easier to scale up and adjust that identity to suit Almalexia. But I suppose the Velothi towns could already serve that purpose.

Anyway, I'll post most of my thoughts on the Indoril problem and how I could see my approach to settlements addressing it in the copiously linked [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24011]House Indoril Brainstorming[/url] thread, but I think my overall concept for Indoril towns is worth posting here:

Basically, I decided to focus on an economic theme for House Indoril, which is probably not the best theme to go with, but is something I can work with. In that theme, Indoril towns have a very scaled-back but still vital function: they link up the rural resource extraction that happens in Velothi hamlets and shack villages with trade routes and Almalexia.
Almalexia and Tier V settlements would be the focus, while the Tier III settlements would bridge the gap between them.
They are in the MH style because they represent Indoril control over the flow of goods in Indoril lands, basically as extensions of Almalexia. The impression players should get when seeing a Tier III city should essentially be of an over-sized tradepost, or rather [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_%28trading_post%29]factory[/url].
While at first glance the towns would give the impression of a well-developed infrastructure, they would also highlight the gap between Indoril and the non-House-affiliated commoners, and would imply an almost colonial attitude of the elite Indoril in respect to the non-Indoril populace, with a lot of exploitation and manipulation involved.
The word for Indoril would either remain govern, or perhaps would shift towards the subtly different direct.

[gro-Dhal]

How about a compromise- keep Akamora and Roa Dyr as Indoril?

I love the idea of making more use of the Velothi set here. Indoril architecture doesn't look right to me in small town/farming village environments.

[rot]

The MH set wasn't made for this and yes, a simple retext won't cut it (even if less ornate doors and windows would go a long way),
but having Almalexia be the only Indoril city won't help define it or make it any better; on the other hand making Roa Dyr, Akamora or Gorne *velothi* is the furthest thing from a good idea. I see no merit at all in it. (no opinion on the other settlements)

[Yeti]

I propose a middle-ground solution: convert the less desirable Indoril settlements into either Velothi towns or manor estates and keep the nicer settlements as MH extensions of Almalexia that serve as administrative nodes, following Gnomey's concept. Sload's universal solution might be cleaner, but I think people will find my proposal easier to swallow. It still solves the major Indoril settlement portrayal problems, while keeping the best of our work intact.

Akamora- Akamora perfectly represents the "Indoril Problem" at its most extreme heights. The second largest ostentatiously Indoril settlement shouldn't exist on the frontier border with the Telvanni. Velothi architecture would better fit its cliff-side location and egg mining theme. Although I advocate getting rid of the lame competing nobles plot, I think we can save the bulk of the city's extensive quest work with a little tweaking. - Convert to Velothi.

Bosmora - Bosmora's location makes it an appropriate place for Gnomey's bridge settlement concept, plus the town looks rather nice. I propose cutting some commoner houses to keep the elite nature of the MH buildings. - Keep as Mournhold

Dreynim Spa - A unique (and elite) location already, Dreynim Spa doesn't need to fit within the standard Indoril settlement framework. - Keep as Mournhold

Enamor Dayn - Already slated for removal.

Gorne - Like Sload suggested, we should convert Gorne into a largish Indoril manor estate, akin to the Nethril estate in the Lan Orethan. The actual manor part of the settlement doesn't currently have the size and grandeur to serve as a proper homestead for the Sandril family, and the surrounding village has little charm. I think we can save the current quests and the best of [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24433]Tondollari's dialogue changes[/url] with a little tweaking. - Convert to Mournhold Manor Estate

Meralag - Small enough to convert into a largish manor estate focused on employing artisans with some light trimming. Convert to Mournhold Manor Estate

Othrensis - Its Mournhold buildings are already slated for removal.

Roa Dyr - I want to keep Roa Dyr as is, while cutting a few extraneous buildings. As the most aesthetically pleasing Tier III Indoril settlement, I think its prominent place on the Thirr River warrants the MH buildings. Make it a hub for Indoril mercantile regulation and stress the elite nature of its population. Keep as Mournhold

Sailen - Although Gnomey did nice work reconfiguring the town, I honestly think Sailen would work better as a Velothi settlement. I like the idea of adding buttresses to Velothi Temples in Indoril areas, however. - Convert to Velothi

I agree that most non-estate Mournhold buildigns in the wilderness should be replaced with either Velothi houses or Shacks

[Aeven]

I think Yeti hits the nail on the head here.

Some MH-styled places to mark Indoril geopolitical interests, and otherwise Velothi in Indoril-owned land.

[gro-Dhal]

If one or two are kept as MH, perhaps there are ways we can reinterpret them as vast extended manor compounds/palaces that function in a similar way to regular cities? So Akamora is literally the residence of Lord Indoril Whatsit and everyone who lives there is a servant of his household?

I'd prefer for them all to be Velothi, but i'm not an exterior modder so it's easy for me to say.

[Sload]

I do not think this is a solution that can be done half way. Either there are MH towns or there aren't. Having less of them doesn't resolve things. I would rather things stay the same then have this done halfway, it isn't worth the effort.

But everyones' rundowns of what can't be changed are different. Telling.

I think the only thing that's been consistent is keeping Roa Dyr, which if I'm guessing comes from the fact that people like how it looks and it can't be done identically in Velothi. I agree with Yeti that Akamora, for example, actually makes more sense in Velothi.

[Aeven]

Yeti's solution changes minor towns into estates, which works in my opinion. Any other towns, aside from Roa Dyr (which could actually be done but would be a sad loss) could be converted into Velothi. I for one would enjoy building a new Akamora.

[rot]

What I get from all the compromise posts is that the desire to redo this stuff has nothing to do with "Indoril have only one city" (which idea I don't find worthwhile at all in the first place, so I'm not even sure what's the most discouraging thing about this discussion :p)

[Yeti]

I do not think this is a solution that can be done half way. Either there are MH towns or there aren't. Having less of them doesn't resolve things. I would rather things stay the same then have this done halfway, it isn't worth the effort.

I see your point here Sload, but I think as long as the MH towns we keep serve uniquely tailored purposes separate from the general Indoril settlement breakdown (Roa Dyr is unique as the Indoril's only river port, Dreynim Spa is unique for being a massive bathing complex), I think we can justify their existence while retooling the rest of the Indoril holdings. I only listed three settlements to keep generally the same:

Bosmora: We could possibly make it into an extended compound for an Indoril noble family that just happens to have houses for traders serving travelers on the road.

Dreynim Spa Considering its size, I wouldn't even call this place a town, much like how I wouldn't call Ghostgate a town. It works as its own separate thing (though I admit it could use a little more Indoril characterization).

Roa Dyr The only town that we can't feasibly make Velothi or turn into a manor estate. Surely one exception isn't one too many in this case?

What I get from all the compromise posts is that the desire to redo this stuff has nothing to do with "Indoril have only one city" (which idea I don't find worthwhile at all in the first place, so I'm not even sure what's the most discouraging thing about this discussion :p)

I'm sorry you find the discussion discouraging, rot. I'd love to find a way to make sense of the Indoril's hodgepodge settlement situation without requiring massive reworking, but I don't see a way to connect the dots we're currently working with without sacrificing House Indoril's narrative potential. Sload's concept that the Indoril are exclusively upper class stands as the only compelling way I can see to develop the House and put an end to the massive confusion of what to do with their towns. Using architecture to separate them visually from the commoners they rule over seems like a compelling route to take. But I'd love to hear a different solution, as I'm not a big fan of losing progress either.

[Aeven]

Two towns, aside from Almalexia, form a major geopolitical play.

Roa Dyr forms Indoril's control point of the Thirr, aside from influence in Almas Thirr.

Bosmora can be changed to form Indoril's control point at the mouth of the Orethan. It could even house a kind of Indoril 'navy'. It's a direct access route to Almalexia, and historically worth protecting. Maybe even the Empire tried to use the mouth to sail into Almalexia itself. In such a case I like to think the sea route into the heart of Morrowind failed, and they resorted to the well known land conquest.

[Swiftoak]

As an exterior person, I can say with some confidence that the Velothi architecture set is much more flexible than Mournhold's in my opinion. While losing the current iteration of Roa Dyr would sadden me, I'm fairly confident we can pull it off with the Velothi set, if it benefits the concept of our Indoril. I for one would love to see the Velothi set get more love, and using it to contrast the opulence of Almalexia serves as a good visual cue (which I think is important) of the whole hiearchy/natural law thing we want to portray with Indoril.

What about the Temple? A pilgrimage across the Orethan I think would be a good oppurtunity for the player to interact with the more conservative elements of Morrowind's society, and I imagine there would be many sites of historical significance in this area. Mayhaps we can come up with things in this avenue that will give some places the background they desperately need. (rather than this town is meant to control the river, this town is about trade, etc.)

I don't really have much to add, but I do agree with Sload that it's either all or nothing here. I'm not gonna partake in the debate on whether we should redo things again, as that can get messy. It's a decision for everyone here to make, and I think it's important to see what other people feel about this.

[RyanS]

I think it is a good idea to add velothi here and there, and maybe even replace a town or two. But whole cities? It's almost like completely redoing another map. Why would the indoril only have one true city? Just a few years before the game setting, they were the most powerful house in Morrowind. I understand redoing places like Sailen or Othrensis, which have already basically been agreed upon. But places like Roa Dyr or Akamora? I didn't think the whole velothi thing would go this far. (forgive me if I sound rude, I just don't want all of these great places get a complete makeover)

[daedren]

I understand my word on this has little value, as I do not actively contribute to TR nowadays because of med school. But I can say I have been following almost daily these forums since the year I joined and, as such, I am quite informed about what's been going on.

I feel the radical idea of Sload is harsh, but it is actually what makes sense. As I understand, the elitist indoril, besides the ones in the manor estates, would only think of one place truly worth living in - and that is Almalexia, capital city of Morrowind.

Besides, the Velothi tileset gives us the "traditional" feel I think Indoril settlements should have, and the contrast with Almalexia would be stunning. The fact that this concept is so rigid also helps conveying the notion that Indoril values and the house itself are almost "still" in time. In addition to that, on the modder's side, there is also the flexibility of Velothi tileset, because it's truly interesting, and the fact that the indoril settlements would be much in accordance to the aesthetic style of the velothi temple buildings... Well, I think it gives the whole concept an artistic cohesion.


Perhaps we could salvage some work from the bigger cities if we somehow include it in Almalexia, when its state is finally decided...?

[Nomadic1]

To me the ideal solution would be to create an Indoril tileset far less opulent than MH and replace all of the towns (and probably even much of Almalexia) with that. The MH tileset would then exist only for the elites of Indoril. It seems highly impractical to get an exterior and interior set made for this though. So FWIW I support replacing all the MH with Velothi everywhere. That includes Roa Dyr.

[RyanS]

This is my main concern:
Hours and hours of hard work and determination have been spent to create these brilliant exteriors, interiors, and npcs. The question is, are we really willing to waste just about all of that work? I remember first installing Sacred East and wondering just how you guys built Akamora. I thought it was brilliant, and I'm sure tons and tons of people are still awed by it's design today.(not like its been all that long, but whatever :p) If we change Akamora and other cities' architecture to the poor-class velothi, I think we will let many of those people down. I really hope we can find a good solution to this problem, as I understand it must be dealt with in some form. I actually kind of like Nomadic1's idea.

[Sload]

Roa Dyr The only town that we can't feasibly make Velothi or turn into a manor estate. Surely one exception isn't one too many in this case?

We can feasibly make a Velothi town there with the same number of ints with the same approximate floor plans. What we can't do is keep the pretty screenshot canals that make anyone care whether Roa Dyr exists or not in the first place. Isn't this the problem? Roa Dyr is one of the largest Indoril cities other than Almalexia and the only reason people care what happens to it is that it takes some nice screenshots. That's not the case for any of the major Hlaalu or Redoran cities. I know we can say Roa Dyr is the "Indoril port on the Thirr," but really that seems like justification ex post facto to me.

I really do think that one exception is too many. Either MH is a unique set for the "City of the Indorils" and their castles in the "gardens" outside the city gates or it isn't. Two cities is too many, this plan only works if its absolute.

This is my main concern:
Hours and hours of hard work and determination have been spent to create these brilliant exteriors, interiors, and npcs. The question is, are we really willing to waste just about all of that work? I remember first installing Sacred East and wondering just how you guys built Akamora. I thought it was brilliant, and I'm sure tons and tons of people are still awed by it's design today.(not like its been all that long, but whatever :p) If we change Akamora and other cities' architecture to the poor-class velothi, I think we will let many of those people down. I really hope we can find a good solution to this problem, as I understand it must be dealt with in some form. I actually kind of like Nomadic1's idea.

While this requires changing exteriors, interiors, and probably some establishing dialog, what we're talking about is not really a complete redo, especially not of a settlement like Akamora which is already quite finished. Retouching content - indeed redoing it - has been unfortunately very common at TR because of poor planning during the initial process. This is why its being so emphasized now.

I want to reiterate that I'm completely open to a plan that would make all this content make sense without any significant redoes, but I've tried again and again and come up empty. & again, this plan doesn't involve any major NPC or dialog redoes and as minimal ext and int redoes as possible. I don't think there's much that needs to be changed about the content in our current Indoril territories except to insert the Indoril above it, rather than position it as Indoril content - it seems like its mostly been this sort of pastoral, quiet world that is exactly what the Indoril would rule over. I'm just presenting this plan as the best I've come up with.

Some people seem to intuit the problem I'm talking about, other people not so much. I don't know how I could clarify it for people, but maybe we could try to understand one another instead of just staking out our positions? What kind of questions could I answer that would clarify what this is trying to get at?

[EJRS]

I personally think the harsher version of doing things (i.e. Almalexia as the only MH-set settlement) would be a huge step forward in terms of design and aesthetics, beyond the other reasons given by previous posters. It really is apparent throughout the region how ill-suited the MH-set is for making smaller settlements, especially ones dominated by the lower classes.
The only complaint against taking this direction I can see is the additional work it will require.
Would we be up to it?

I feel that doing things the better way and ending up with something spectacular is better than taking the easy way out and ending up with something rather meh.
If the decision was made to take this direction, I would gladly dedicate a bit of extra time and energy to do whatever work needs to be done.

[Yeti]

Two Questions For Sload That I Think Would clarify Things For People:

1. Why does House Indoril only have one city?

2. How "Indoril" would the Velothi settlements be? Do they have Indoril guards? Indoril House members?

-----------------
Rather than looking at Roa Dyr as a separate town, would conceptualizing it as Almalexia's port on the Thirr, make the exception any more reasonable? I kind of see it as what [url=http://www.ostia-antica.org/]Ostia[/url] was to ancient Rome, basically a satellite harbor town to the larger city.

I don't want to keep it just because of pretty screenshots, but because I think MH works here -even under the new framework- considering the concept behind it.

But places like Roa Dyr or Akamora? I didn't think the whole velothi thing would go this far. (forgive me if I sound rude, I just don't want all of these great places get a complete makeover)

Akamora honestly isn't that great, in my opinion. It's needlessly gargantuan and screams "mod" more than all our major settlements. I NPCed it 1-2 years ago, so I can personally attest to its problematic concept. It would work better as "poor-class Velothi" because it's back story already matches the concept of a Velothi town. You don't build palaces and opulent buildings at the site of an egg mining town.

-------------------------
I think this endeavor wouldn't take as much work if we closely match the new Velothi buildings to their MH predecessors and use the interiors already made for these settlements as a basis for the new ones. In other words, only the tile set used ofr each interior would have to change and the furniture and item layout can remain the same with some tweaks.

[Aeven]

To make this work though, we need some 'new' Velothi buildings. Think larger buildings, taller ones, and maybe someone should create 'closed' versions of buildings that have no vertices at the back because they were made to be placed against walls.

[daedren]

Yeti's point on Roa Dyr compared to Ostia is interesting. In that case, that would be the only exception. But if it's made Velothi, I'm ok with that too.

I agree with Aeven that perhaps would be nice to have more variety in Velothi buildings.


I have another question, I now it's been talked somewhere but I don't recall exactly where:

As for the pilgrimages of the Temple, especially the one concerning Veloth's path till Necrom, will some kind of "marks" or "monuments" be placed in any of these settlements? If that is the case, will the local temples reflect it in some way?

[Aeven]

I consider Almalexia to have two "Ostias", so I include a somewhat redesigned Bosmora in this.

[rot]

While this requires changing exteriors, interiors, and probably some establishing dialog, what we're talking about is not really a complete redo, especially not of a settlement like Akamora which is already quite finished.

That's completely wrong. As for Akamora, making it velothi WOULD mean at least a 90% redo on all fronts. Not only would most of its NPCs and dialog be axed, so would the majority of the quests made for it - and that's unsalvageable content that contributes more towards making a good game than what you'd be able to replace it with ever could (and that's only after a few years, assuming you get people to work on it)

As an aside, "egg mining town" is the worst and most boring thing about Akamora, and the fact that it's still seriously mentionned here also shows how much you know about the work that's been and is still being done on it

[Gnomey]

@Daedren: that remains to be established, though there are a few good ideas in the House Indoril Brainstorming thread one could go off of. I had an idea about countryside shrines I'll want to elaborate on, but nothing for settlements, as such.

As for the rest of this discussion, (which I really like, by the way), I also get the impression that we're not all quite on the same page.
What I would suggest is that we try and keep different aspects of the discussion apart: as far as I can see, the three main concerns in this discussion appear to be characterizing House Indoril, not wasting modders' work and maintaining good visuals/a nice aesthetic. A fourth aspect would be settlement logistics, but I'm assuming everyone agrees that that is a minor issue. I think logistics should only be a concern insofar as they contribute to characterization.

To illustrate:

Characterization: does anyone actually think that Sload's idea would not aid in the characterization of House Indoril? Because as far as I can see, nobody has actually disputed that, though I mentioned a concern about characterizing Almalexia.

Wasting Modders' Work: Sload's suggestion would, strictly speaking, only require replacing the MH buildings in settlements with Velothi buildings, though further alterations would have to be made in places to accommodate the Velothi buildings. Whether we do more would depend mostly on our inclination, and has little to do with Sload's suggestion. So most of the exterior modders' work could be preserved. Interiors do not need to be touched at all.
Whether those interiors would be used elsewhere is another question, which can't really be answered until we know what we're going to do with Almalexia. As much as I'd like to say that we can cram all of them into Almalexia, I expect that would prove to be impractical, if not undesirable.
Yeti's proposal to retool the MH interiors to Velothi would solve that particular problem, but would require making alterations to interiors, too. I don't think that is a problem, personally, but I'm skeptical of the idea's feasibility and desirability for other reasons.
[spoiler]To elaborate: as Aeven pointed out, the floorplans of standard Velothi buildings are very different from those of standard MH buildings, and trying to make the Velothi buildings fit the MH floorplans in the exterior would probably end up looking silly/ugly without new models. The interior architecture is also rather different -- especially around corners and stairs -- as well as the colourscheme. And as the interiors were not created to fit our as-yet-unestablished concept for House Indoril, I'm also concerned that a lot of them will not quite reflect that concept, whatever it will end up being.
If I remember correctly, Necrom's interiors were once retooled from Velothi to our Necrom tileset. Does anyone remember whether that ended up being worth the effort?[/spoiler]

Good Visuals: I'd argue that this concern is somewhat distinct from the one above. It goes in two directions: the concern that the MH set is too limited to achieve certain visuals, (ie. poor housing, rural housing) -- an idea which I am endeavouring to disprove, without much success -- and the idea that the Velothi set would not be able to reproduce the visuals of Indoril towns like, notably, Roa Dyr.
To the first, I would argue that most Morrowind tilesets require some mastery to use well, (notably the limited Redoran and Telvanni tilesets), but can work wonders once that mastery is attained. That being said, if the effort required to make the MH set work in those contexts outweighs the advantages, as is currently the case, using the set stops being worthwhile.
To the second, I'll state outright that the Velothi set can do everything the MH set can, and can probably do it better. That includes Roa Dyr. There are two major things that make a set flexible: the number of models and the flexibility of those individual models. Velothi has both in spades; the former in particular.

There is one thing the Velothi set cannot do that the MH set can, though: not being the Velothi set. And I only recently realized an implication of making most Indoril towns Velothi: if most Indoril towns are Velothi, and we go with the idea of making most Telvanni towns Velothi, then, setting House Dres to the side for a moment, almost all settlements east of the Thirr could end up being Velothi. If we go with the idea of the Telvanni set only being used for wizard towers, Port Telvannis and Sadrith Mora, and the MH set only being used for Almalexia, that will only leave Necrom as a non-Velothi (and non-Imperial) town.
Taking House Dres into consideration again, if we go with the plan of making most Dres towns other than Tear strongholds, the Indoril towns other than Almalecia small Velothi towns and the Telvanni towns small Velothi towns, central and eastern Morrowind will end up incredibly rural, with the exceptions of Port Telvannis, Sadrith Mora, Necrom, Almalexia and Firewatch. (And Helnim?)
I'm actually not at all sure whether either of those points are good or bad, but would like to see them discussed.

[Theo]

OK, if Akamora is going to be scrapped, is there any reason to presume that it should be replaced by an egg-mining Velothi town? This concept of egg-mining settlement does not strike me as something that special and relocating a couple of egg-mines that just happen to be nearby would truly be a drop in the sea of this major overhaul.
Would not a border fortress make more sense here? Does there need to be a Indoril settlement at all in this area? And what about the Mephalain mountains as a region? What should be their identity? I like the area, particularly because I spend a lot of time detailing it, but I must admit it is also significantly moddy.
I do not see that simply replacing one architectural style with another would be radical enough. If the identity of the place is going to be redefined, you should probably start with a clean board and redo the whole region starting probably with the heightmap in the first place.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

How practical would it be (both in-universe and in-game) for there to be a canal from Almalexia to Roa Dyr, making Roa Dyr a suburb of Almalexia?

[Aeven]

TDF, it would be extremely weird to do so. It would cover a stretch of almost 1/8 of the province. Also, there will be a proper road connecting the two.

[Yeti]

That's completely wrong. As for Akamora, making it velothi WOULD mean at least a 90% redo on all fronts. Not only would most of its NPCs and dialog be axed, so would the majority of the quests made for it - and that's unsalvageable content that contributes more towards making a good game than what you'd be able to replace it with ever could (and that's only after a few years, assuming you get people to work on it)

As the one who NPCed Akamora, I think you're overstating the amount of stuff that would need redoing. Most of the NPCs and dialogue can be kept if the city is made Velothi. It can keep its Fighters Guild and its Mages Guild and its misc quests, none of which are explicitly tied to the town being built in the Mournhold style. We can even keep the competing egg mines theme, so long as they aren't tied to uncharacteristic House Indoril nobles bickering

As an aside, "egg mining town" is the worst and most boring thing about Akamora, and the fact that it's still seriously mentionned here also shows how much you know about the work that's been and is still being done on it

I can't think of anything notable about Akamora besides its status as a frontier egg mining town that happens to border Telvanni lands and the Valley of Mephala. And really, that's all the settlement needs to stand on its own. An egg mining town doesn't need to be boring as long as it's well implemented. It's important that our settlements represent aspects of Dunmer culture, and representing egg mining as a major industry is part of that.

@Gnomey: Velothi doesn't necessarily need to mean rural. I also think Telvanni wizard towers will still outnumber Velothi settlements in Telvanni District and Indoril manor estates will possibly outnumber Velothi towns in Indoril lands as well, if you're worried about all of eastern Morrowind looking the same.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

TDF, it would be extremely weird to do so. It would cover a stretch of almost 1/8 of the province. Also, there will be a proper road connecting the two.

That's kinda what I thought. :shrug: Nevermind.

[Sload]

Will reply in more depth later, but I don't understand how switching the architecture set of Akamora keeps any of its NPCs and quests from working. Like there'll be some descriptions that have to be combed through, but rot if you're going to make a counterintuitive claim like that with such certainty you should explain it.

EDIT1: No one has talked about "making most of the Telvanni towns Velothi," what people have talked about is making sure that the Telvanni settlements are towers and not towns. No one's talked about making any more Velothi settlements other than Ranyon-ruhn and Vos, as far as I know. And even changing all these towns to vel, I'm pretty certain Almalexia+Mournhold has more ints than all these towns combined.

EDIT2: It is also not the case that anyone has suggested making most Dres towns into strongholds to my knowledge.

[EJRS]

.
...almost all settlements east of the Thirr could end up being Velothi. If we go with the idea of the Telvanni set only being used for wizard towers, Port Telvannis and Sadrith Mora, and the MH set only being used for Almalexia, that will only leave Necrom as a non-Velothi (and non-Imperial) town.

Strictly from a aesthetic perspective, I don't really think this is a problem. As you yourself pointed out, the Velothi set has a lot of flexibility. Just looking at it I'm coming up with a ton of very different concepts utilizing this set.

I also like the idea of the Velothi set being kind of the pan-dunmer architectural style, I think it helps tying the whole province together nicely. I can't see any problems concerning the ubiquity of Velothi settlements and what that architectural style represents.

And "rural" can contain a lot of variation in itself.

[Sload]

To make this work though, we need some 'new' Velothi buildings. Think larger buildings, taller ones, and maybe someone should create 'closed' versions of buildings that have no vertices at the back because they were made to be placed against walls.

I'd like a more in-depth look at what large and tall buildings are being used in these settlements, because my experience is that those buildings are mainly restricted to Almalexia. We definitely do need the buildings without back walls to be finished out - in general, that would've been a great thing to have this whole time.

[gro-Dhal]

There is one thing the Velothi set cannot do that the MH set can, though: not being the Velothi set. And I only recently realized an implication of making most Indoril towns Velothi: if most Indoril towns are Velothi, and we go with the idea of making most Telvanni towns Velothi, then, setting House Dres to the side for a moment, almost all settlements east of the Thirr could end up being Velothi.

That's an interesting point, but as you say we'd have Necrom and Imperial settlements as well as shack villages to add variety.

What would be nice would be if we could expand the architecture set. Perhaps even incorporating OM style features somehow. Would be tricky to pull off in a way that looks good but it would be worthwhile I think.

[Gnomey]

@Sload: the point was badly stated on my part. To my knowledge nothing concrete has been suggested on reworking Telvanni cities and Dres strongholds, and they will by no means necessarily be handled in the above manner.
What I was trying to say is that, when dealing with House Indoril, we have to keep in mind that we are talking about roughly 1/5 of Morrowind. There is a bigger picture than House Indoril itself that our decisions on House Indoril will very much influence, and that is the overall image of Morrowind.
I am not saying that giving Indoril Velothi cities would be a bad idea, or would detract from the overall image of Morrowind. But it would very much affect that image, and we have to keep that in mind.
If decisions we make on House Indoril may affect the decisions we make when dealing with the other Houses, like Telvanni and Dres, they require extra consideration.
And having said all that, I hope it is clear that I am not saying that the big picture should dictate how we handle Indoril. I am only stating that it is an important factor we should keep in mind.