House Indoril Brainstorming

[Sload]

EDIT: Seneca37

We have a new Master Planning Document here.

It will hopefully be updated regularly, to reflect current discussions within this and related House Indoril threads.
It will be kept here, in the first post, to make it easier for everyone to find.

As Sload said, "Everyone's thoughts are welcome."




EDIT: PDFs early in this document are not final, just brainstorming ideas. The final pdf we create will need to meet these requirements:

The structure of the final document:

1. General Character.

What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?

2. Settlement Spaces.

What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?

What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?

3. NPCs.

What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?

What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?

4. Faction Quest Storyline.

What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?

This is for discussing House Indoril. Again, this is as a faction, not a questline or a region. Its about the character of the house.

My plan for this house is much vaguer than Redoran or Telvanni were, but I am proposing a particular new feature: that House Indoril is the house of the law. This has significant implications given the theology of law in Tribunate Morrowind. There are two kinds of law: ordained law, which is criminal law, and determined law, which is the law governing things which cannot be changed (such as magic or the weather or the social order).

Please, everyone's thoughts are welcome.

[Gez]

Partisan
Creedman who has taken up arms in a House War.
Accorder
Advanced and successful participant in a House War.
Concordant Minister
Recognized for their skilled maintenance of order, especially through execution of a House War.

This puts a rather martial slant to the House of Law... Of course it's easier to quest a player's progression around a nice juicy House War with Hlaalu (and/or Dres, why not) than around legislation and litigation.

[Yeti]

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but isn't Salume Nethril's manor a lot bigger than Ienen Salvu's? Last I checked it was large enough to warrant naming the cell it was in. Salvu manor is just a small house in the woods. Perhaps we should move Salvu into the larger manor and rename it?

Personally, I've never been especially fond of the name "Tomaril," (sounds too much like "Tomorrow").If you ask me, the Sorvol part of the councilor's name was the better half. Perhaps we could compromise with "Ienen Sorvalen" or something similar?

But otherwise, I like your rough draft overall. The focus on law and the Indorils' utter resistance to changing what they see as the natural order should give their House a unique identity moving forward.

[Sload]

I don't super know about counselors, I just thought it'd be better to have 6 living ones.

[Nomadic1]

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but isn't Salume Nethril's manor a lot bigger than Ienen Salvu's? Last I checked it was large enough to warrant naming the cell it was in. Salvu manor is just a small house in the woods. Perhaps we should move Salvu into the larger manor and rename it?

IIRC Salvu was originally chosen to be a councillor specifically because it wasn't one of the large Lan Orethan manors.

[Theo]

I agree with Gez that perhaps too much stress is put on the house war, but maybe I simply misunderstood what you mean by it. Indoril should not be that much about making wars, that is mostly Redoran business, but maintaining order and tradition, as you said.

I would rather see current conflict with Hlaalu as a result of circumstances, rather than integral part of the Indoril doctrine.

Indoril were clearly outnumbering other houses and did not need to assert their dominance through waging war with them. I believe Redoran and Dres acknowledged Indoril authority, Telvanni simply did not care and Hlaalu did not have any means nor reasons to challenge it until recently. It is only through their alliance and trade with the empire that they grew strong enough to be a challenge to Indoril.

This is totally unprecedented situation to Indoril and one they are confused about it and have difficulty to understand and adapt to. It may take several events for the leaders of the Inrodil to finally realize that action must be taken against Hlaalu.

[Lud]

Okay, I've had a look at Sload's wee document regarding the Indoril and, particularly in the context of the Catholic Church and the Byzantines as inspirations, I had a thought.

The Indoril see themselves as divinely appointed rulers of Morrowind, in accordance with natural law laid down by the blessed Tribunal. Why then should they fully recognise the rights of other houses to hold sovereignty over their regions or should they fully recognise their authority as lawful?
The Catholic Church traditionally holds that the monarchies of Europe are within its gift and that the kings of Europe only hold their thrones at the say-so of the pope. The pope's ability to exact tribute from the monarchs has waxed and waned, but they have still claimed it nevertheless. In the same manner, the Indoril would seethe ruling of all Morrowind as a duty that they have been given by the Tribunal and can claim to be capable of revoking the authority of other houses over their lands. Accordingly, they wouldn't call their house "Great House Indoril", on the same level as "Great House Telvanni". They would either call themselves a greater title or use a lesser title for the other houses. In addition, they wouldn't call regions "Hlaalu land". They would consider it "land held in trust by House Hlaalu by the grace of Almsivi under the protection the Indoril". The conventional view is:
Tribunal
Temple
Houses

They see it as:
Tribunal
Temple
Indoril protection
Houses other than Indoril

This is not just to say that they see themselves as better than the other houses, they see themselves as not a House but a ruling class for all Morrowind (who happen not to be ruling most of it, but they'd never admit that).

[gro-Dhal]

The most refined of Indoril embrace the notion that their society and rituals are perfect and unchanging to the extent that they refuse to acknowledge the passage of time. Indoril ascetics ritually live out the same day in endless repetition

[immortal_pigs]

Oration is considered a valued skill in House Indoril. Many nobles practice public speaking. Being proficient at oration is one of the rituals that must be performed to be included in the nobility.

Dancing as a ritualistic art form features prominently in House Indoril. The plebs engage in collective dances to strengthen the feeling of togetherness. Nobles have access to more sophisticated dance styles that distinguish them from the commoners. Indoril dancing is focused more on technical proficiency and repeating the same symbolic moves over and over again (like ballet). Even among the nobility, dancing is something that is done collectively.

Lovemaking is a strictly formal experience which requires an instruction manual.

[alex25]

Some books about determined and ordained law would be nice to have. They would explain a lot about House Indoril and there are quite a few interiors in Almalexia that are related to dunmer law where such books would be really nice to have.

[Sload]

The structure of the final document:

1. General Character.

What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?

2. Settlement Spaces.

What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?

What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?

3. NPCs.

What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?

What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?

4. Faction Quest Storyline.

What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?

[gro-Dhal]

The Indoril are the 'religious' house, but it seems to me they're more in love with a religion safely codified in text and tradition than with the unpredictable, anarchic behaviour of their living gods. It's the institution of religion that they worship, rather than the Tribunal as people.

The Indoril are bound by ritual and tradition to an extent that's [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKhILNfbtpc]almost crippling[/url]. Everything must be done in the proper manner, at the proper time. The PC has to learn these rules and play along with them in order to advance, at least up until they reach a certain level of power (councillor?), whereupon they can begin to shake things up.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

The PC has to learn these rules and play along with them in order to advance, at least up until they reach a certain level of power (councillor?), whereupon they can begin to shake things up.

Could we have more conservative members of the house actively fighting you (politically rather than physically) to try to keep things the same. Maybe even an attempt on your life by Morag Tong assassins (although that could be difficult to do if the player is also a member of the Morag Tong).

[gro-Dhal]

Indoril NPCs are more likely to be:

-Ordinators (duh)
-Priests
-Soldiers or veterans
-Clerks and bureaucrats
-Lawyers
-Non-magical scholars/savants
-Monks

[Gnomey]

While I'm at it:

House Indoril is closer to the compassion and sympathy of Almalexia, a comfortable and secure serenity.

I get the impression that, while TR's Indoril do engage in acts of compassion and sympathy, they don't really seem compassionate or sympathetic as such. While they would no doubt act strictly around outlanders, we could consider giving them a somewhat softer impression when among themselves. (I am talking about attitude, and not action. As far as that is concerned, I concur with gro-Dahl).

[Gnomey]

I suppose this goes here. Going off of Sload's post in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24292]Establishing Background Lore[/url] thread:

A plantation is an enclosed agricultural space which grows crops for sale on the market & export out of the immediate region rather than for local use. The word "enclosed" here is not arbitrary, "enclosure" is the process by which land becomes owned by a single person, family, or company, rather than being communal grazing or farming land for everyone in the area. Understanding enclosure is important because the Hlaalu practice it and the Indoril don't.

In the Morrowind juridicial system, sovereignty over space is the inherited rights of the nobility; this is feudal. The Indoril & Dres practice this system pretty much unadulturated, though they have different kinship practices. An Indoril noble is sovereign over some territory (say, much of the right bank of the Thirr). All who live and farm there owe that noble a tithe for his role as their benevolent ruler and adjudicator and as their interlocutor with the Divine. The peasants farm on open, communal farming and grazing land and then pay a portion of what they make to their lord. The lord does not have "his" farming land, where he oversees production. He has "his" territory, where he is locally sovereign (under the higher sovereignty of the Grand Ascendant and the Tribunal).

[...]

So: Hlaalu, plantations; Indoril, estate manors. Hlaalu small independent farmer; Indoril, communal peasant farms. Hlaalu, sell crops on the market; Indoril, pay tithe to lord. It matters.

I want to clarify the role of slaves in Indoril estates by basically thinking out loud, and see whether I have it right:

Indoril slaves fulfill much the same role as Indoril peasants, but have even less (no?) rights. They are owned by the estate owner (=Indoril noble), and have to work the estate in return for food and shelter (usually. Naturally, it's less of a give-and-take and more of a you-have-no-choice-in-the-matter).

Presumably, slaves would be assigned to work on certain fields, and would be kept in some sort of slave pen on site. They (as well as the local peasants) would work under the oversight of Indoril Guards.

Now the question is where the distinction lies between Hlaalu and Indoril slaves. They could be very similar: as opposed to Indoril peasants, who pay a portion of their produce to their lord, Indoril slaves 'pay' the whole. Either the noble or the local peasants would then be responsible for feeding and sheltering the slaves, as it would not do anyone any good if the slaves were to up and die.
Indoril slaves could also have more a distinct role from Hlaalu slaves: the produce of Indoril slaves becomes the property of the local commune, from where a portion of it is paid to the Indoril noble. Basically a less direct route, which might better serve to underline the Indoril practice of communal farming.

I'd say that the latter option strikes me as the better one. Indoril slaves, for all intents and purposes, while owned by the estate owner, work for the local commune. While legally tied to the owner, the slave and owner would not have a direct relationship in day-to-day life. Essentially, Indoril slaves are leased to communes.

[Yeti]

A brief overview of Indoril settlement and political distribution


Alt Orethan - Home to the politically active city-dwelling Indoril. They're the ones most actively trying to maintain law and order in these turbulent times. Their massive capital, Almalexia, which they see as the cultural heart of Morrowind, is the central hub of most major Indoril institutions. Surrounding region has many manor estates and communal peasant farms. Othrensis is a small village of traditional religious Dunmer farmers. The Orethan River flows through the Alt Orethan, serving as a convenient means to transport agricultural products and other goods through the Indoril heartland.

Lan Orethan - Home to the rural religious and politically apathetic Indoril. More interested in being lost in the tranquility of Temple piety than the forces of change besetting their House. Idealistic and isolationist, the Indoril of this region are out-of-touch with the outside world. Strict stability and peaceful doings are encouraged. Numerous Indoril estates and small settlements dot the dense enchanting forest. There's a modest amount of farming and trade along the Orethan River. The Isle of Gorne is part of the region culturally.

Thirr River Valley Home to the agricultural and militaristic Indoril. Directly opposed to House Hlaalu. The Thirr River Valley is a major site of trade and agriculture. Roa Dyr is a major Indoril port on the Thirr River, and Almas Thirr is a major Temple stronghold where Indoril influence is strong. Lots of communal peasant farming.

Mephalain Mountains - Home to the frontiersman Indoril. Most concerned with their Houes's historic grievances with House Telvanni. Terrain is rugged and hostile, and the Indoril of the north are slightly more individualistic, though only to a subtle degree. Akamora is a major Indoril city with the feel of a frontier mining town. Egg mining a major part of the northern economy. Ayemar is an Indoril border fortress protecting its lands from Telvanni encroachment.


I'll try expanding and editing this into something more presentable later.

[Yeti]

What identity can we give the members of House Indoril who live in the Inlet Bog? In what way can Indoril values and cultural concepts be adapted to this significantly large and uninviting region?

[gro-Dhal]

Do any Indoril live in the Inlet Bog? I thought it was a largely nonaligned area, with just some Indoril guards around. I don't think the locals would identify that strongly with any of the great houses.

[rot]

Aside from an unaligned shack village and the Indoril player stronghold it's uninhabited, with nothing else in the plans

(and the stronghold is on the inner sea/ ashlands borders, barely into the swamps)

[Yeti]

I supposed I should have worded my query better. How about this: What role can the Inlet Bog play as an area neighboring heavily Indoril areas? The player will have their stronghold in the region, after all.

[Gnomey]

To be completely frank, I really wish Inlet Bog were given a few more Gnaar Mok-style Indoril settlements with poor commoners living in shacks near either a small Indoril enclave on an island in the style of Roa Dyr or a manor. I don't think it makes much sense for an Indoril region that isn't mountainous to be so sparsely populated, swamp or no swamp. It would also be a good way to use some of what I believe are several currently unused MH and shack interiors.

But beyond discussing pipe-dreams, I think the role of Inlet Bog could be to explore the identity and culture of House Indoril commoners.

Alt Orethan could represent Indoril's golden age. I'm leaning towards wanting Alt Orethan to be the one place in Morrowind free of any grim premonitions of that province's future. The locals are completely unaware of the various threats assaulting Morrowind, some of which are centuries old. Consequently, when the player is involved in a quest which does reveal that something is wrong with Morrowind, like the late Vvardenfell and Tribunal mainquests, that revelation might hit the inhabitants of Alt Orethan all the harder due to being so unexpected.

Lan Orethan I see just as Yeti worded it a few posts up. Its inhabitants are very introverted and out-of-touch. I think it could represent the internal decay of House Indoril, its inhabitants giving up their leading role in Morrowind in a sort of wave of ennui, thereby allowing subversive influences to take hold of Dunmer society.
That's roughly how I see Indoril corruption: not characterized by self-interest or greed, but instead by lack of interest and detachment.
The nobles in Lan Orethan come perhaps the closest to the lifestyle of Telvanni mages, except instead of arcane pursuits the Indoril retreat into religion and tradition.

Thirr River Valley represents the reality of contemporary Indoril, its best days behind it and slowly losing its hold on its territories, both geographic and social. The Indoril in TRV might be stubborn in their opposition to change, but to an extent they may recognize that they have already lost their battle and are only holding on by virtue of and for the sake of their pride.

For the Mephalain Mountains I'll go somewhat out on a limb and say it represents the heritage of House Indoril. Completely ignoring the outside world, its nobles feud with each other, with House Telvanni and with any sort of foreign influence that tries to worm its way in. They are militaristic and relatively aggressive. They don't quite fit the description of warlords, though, as they are not selfish or especially individualistic. They are faithful and forthright in protecting the interests of the Tribunal and House Indoril, they are simply not very unified in doing so.

Finally Inlet Bog would be removed from all of those associations and would effectively act as the control-group. It contains the everyday Indoril; fishers, dreugh-jiggers, pearl-divers, perhaps egg-miners, perhaps a few minor nobles. It would not really contain any movers and shakers. Its inhabitants would not be especially lethargic. They would not really be beset by any great threats. They are not especially warlike.

The role of the player stronghold in the region is another question. Why would it be built there, of all places? Lack of room elsewhere? I suppose the immediate explanation is that, perhaps, the player is supposed to activate the population of Inlet Bog and involve them in Indoril affairs, in a sort of defence-down-to-the-last-man move. Or maybe Inlet Bog is the easiest place for an outlander Indoril to live, as in every other region there would be a lot of other nearby nobles who would take offence to living near the estate of an outlander.
Just to make sure, though, are there actually any concrete plans for Seyda Vano, other than it having being built and designated as the player stronghold? Was there any thought put into its placement or was it just tossed in ad hoc? Because I think the player strongholds need a lot of thought to be put into their placement, and if there is no good reason for Seyda Vano being where it is I'd consider moving it somewhere else.

[Yeti]

Great post, Gnomey.

Seyda Vano is very close to Old Ebonheart, so perhaps it could be seen as the Indoril trying to reassert their ancestral claim to the land around their former stronghold. I also imagine the other Indoril aristocrats getting a kick out of forcing the outlander upstart into living in a swamp.

[Yeti]

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24525]Quoted from a discussion about Roa Dyr:[/url]

I'm starting to think that I might prefer if Indoril didn't have much of a sense of aesthetic pleasure, just of law and balance along the lines of the golden mean. Not taken too far, of course; they're not robots. It's more a matter of what they would focus on.
Indoril wouldn't build a city to look beautiful. They would build a city to follow a series of laws and guidelines only they can really follow, and it is the city's ability to match those laws and guidelines that makes it beautiful.
If an outlander were to say "what a beautiful city" to an Indoril, the Indoril might think the outlander was somewhat missing the point and try to explain why the city was beautiful, and how it suitably expresses the glory and strictures of the Tribunal and House Indoril or whatnot. And the outlander would back away.

Perhaps Indoril merchants aren't independent, or are not perceived as being independent, but are very much servants of the House and perhaps even specifically the local lord.
The interaction between aristocrats and merchants might be the interaction of a head and an arm, or something along those lines.

[rot]

IRC discussion on Indoril, raw log for now because laziness.
Here are other bulletpoint ideas from much older discussions though:

- More could be done to show that House Indoril has, had or claims to have some sort of authority in other Houses' territories. There is currently no(?) evidence of Indoril cultural influence &/or authority on the rest of Morrowind, other than the omnipresence of the Temple (which isn't especially stressed as something they helped propagate)

- Weirder details of Indoril culture don't necessarily have to hold true in the present day. They've already been influenced by the Empire's invasion and semi-occupation in a major way - so even very significant, large-scale facts can be attributed to them while bypassing game limitations entirely

- House Indoril itself is rather exclusive and composed only of the direct descendents of Indoril Nerevar, while minor nobility (ex-minor Houses) and the rest of the population are in the *service* of House Indoril

- There are no suicide rituals in Indoril culture; the mass suicides were a spontaneous collective phenomenon, which is not mentioned in polite conversation

- House Indoril indulges in much historical revisionism, blatantly and shamelessly, especially infuriating to Imperial scholars

[Gnomey]

Thanks for posting that. I do plan on making a longer post, but for now I'll add another idea mentioned on IRC which I rather like:

-The Indoril are not conservative: their laws and customs are constantly shifting and changing in ways only they are really able to follow. They generally expect others to follow along. This would tie into that historical revisionism idea.

It also makes it more likely for Indoril to accept Vivec's explanation that he did not kill Nerevar, Vivec the mortal killed Nerevar. Not sure if that's intentional.

Edit: I almost forgot two more things I want to throw out:

First of all, to round off Indoril's urban population a little better, the idea came up of giving them a greater production focus than just agriculture.

Specifically the production of wares like tapestries, culdrems, glassware and musical instruments. While all of those would have local use, they would also be important export goods, especially for outlanders who value exotic craftsmanship enough to brave Indoril's mystifying bureaucracy and hostility.

So while the Indoril would have an important role in trade, I see them as mainly importing and exporting wares, rather than acting as middle-men like House Hlaalu. Indoril lands are Morrowind's center of production as opposed to Deshaan which is Morrowind's breadbasket (I think).

The other thing that came up was discussing Indoril soundscape, as a result of mentioning instrument production, leading to the following brainstorming in the form of random links:

Waterphone
Glass harmonica. Would be linked to glass industry.
What the Indoril might have instead of statues.
What could dot Indoril countrysides instead of random shrines.
A sort of Indoril ceremonial waiting door sculpture-hall?
Not related to sound, probably not viable and likely not desirable, but I'll include it anyway.

Unless a really enthusiastic modeller and sound designer pops out those are mostly for inspiration.

[Yeti]

Concerning the city/rural noble issue, a noble living in a city can still control land in the countryside, the way I see it. Maybe they can be lesser nobility who aren't prominent enough to own a countryside estate, or just prefer living in a town.

But I also like your idea of adding more industry to Indoril towns. Perhaps urban craftsmer could be equivalent to rural serfs in this case?

[Tondollari]

Regarding the sounds:

As for the Aeolian Gourd Harp in the latter part of the video, I think something similar to it would work well in the Velothi tileset. The strings could be made of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catgut]catgut[/url] from Dunmeri remains. I'm also not sure if it should be exclusive to Indoril territory, it seems like something the Dres could have too. Of all the instruments discussed, this is definitely the one I'd want to see implemented first, because it could add the most to the game's atmosphere. Second would be something like the Waterphone. The glass armonica would also be very nice, but might see limited use as an expensive, seemingly "high-tech" instrument. Also probably hard to model.

[Yeti]

I don't think a discussion of musical instruments is appropriate for this thread. I suggest making a new thread to cover this separate topic.

[Gnomey]

Yeah, as far as actual implementation and such is concerned that probably belongs elsewhere.

Concerning the city/rural noble issue, a noble living in a city can still control land in the countryside, the way I see it.

The problem is that there are already a lot of rural nobles. A completely sufficient number for the current number of farming hamlets. I don't think we want one hamlet to one manor, and at the moment I'm pretty certain that the total number of manors is greater than the total number of hamlets.
As it currently stands, I think almost every manor could be removed from Indoril cities except for the really important ones in Almalexia and nobody would be the wiser.
Maybe urban 'nobles' fill the more administrative roles? So savants, judges, priests, maybe scribes, maybe even guards. They would be nobles, but relatively minor ones, perhaps from branch families and, over time, branch families of branch families of branch families. So they would be actual members of the House, but among the least important ones.
(As far as guards are concerned, I meant that the guards would come from such noble families, not live in the manors).

Perhaps urban craftsmer could be equivalent to rural serfs in this case?

That's a bit of a question to me. Would the craftsmer be lower class, or would they tend to be middle class? Some crafts might even be reserved for the urban nobility, if they're really important.
I'd tend to say that craftsmer would be between middle and lower class, but clearly superior to the serfs, who are firmly lower class.
Except, again, for certain important crafts which would elevate the craftsmer firmly to middle class.
Craftsmer might also tend to be more valued in smaller towns than in Almalexia, where there would be an overabundance of them. (This both makes sense to me and makes it so that the arrangement in Roa Dyr works).

Edit: another question is about craftsmer and tong, and how they are associated, if at all.
In this case, I personally want to firmly move away from the middle ages: there would be craftsmer tongs, but they would often not be directly related to the craft in question.
Certain crafts may have several such tongs, while others may have none. As such, craftmer would not be obligated to join a tong to be able to ply their trade.
So for instrument makers you might have one tong that holds Sotha Sil in reverence and devotes itself to the precise attunement of instruments to match the laws and motions of the world, while another might be devoted to capturing and releasing the hum of spirits and ghost whispers.
Such tongs would also sometimes be cross-disciplinary. For example some of the members of the latter tong might be musicians, while some members of the former might be glassmakers. (In the case of the glass harmonica).

[Gnomey]

Edited together from a conversation I had with Swiftoak on IRC:

[spoiler][...]
<Gnomey154> Velothi are non-House-affilaited Dunmer,
<Gnomey154> but I think they should have a culture unto themselves.
<Swiftoak> when i was waking up today i thought about packed mud houses and something more primitive
<Swiftoak> than the velothi set
<Swiftoak> but the difficulty for me is how to make the two work together
<Gnomey154> They could essentailly be the Indoril lower class, the gap between classes is just so large you may not realize it.
<Swiftoak> like there are cave dwellings
<Swiftoak> want more of that
<Swiftoak> i*
<Gnomey154> I always like imagining Dunmer as insects, really.
[...]
<Gnomey154> Cave, tunnels, anthills,
<Gnomey154> those kind of structures.
<Gnomey154> Even if they are solid structures, like the Velothi set, they can still be evocative of bugs.
<Swiftoak> yeah
[...]
<Gnomey154> I think we should ignore architecture for now, though.
<Gnomey154> The architecture evokes the culture.
<Gnomey154> I think the culture is currently unexplored and, frankly, boring.
<Gnomey154> Once we make it interesting, we can decide whether the tileset needs to be expanded to properly portray it.
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Swiftoak> on the one hand i like how simple the velothi are simple
<Swiftoak> but the lack of love and attention its culture gets in MW
<Swiftoak> is criminal
<Swiftoak> it's like we're forgetting an entire aspect of the dunmer culture
<Gnomey154> Yeah. I thik something can be simple but also well-developed.
<Gnomey154> Dust-merchant, bug-herds, daggerlads, temple schools, etc.
<Swiftoak> mmm
<Swiftoak> caravaners
[...]
<Gnomey154> @Swiftoak: I don't necessarily dislike ESO, but I would probably not want to go anywhere near Morrowind.
<Swiftoak> no i dont think it's so bad either i never tried it
<Gnomey154> I'm sure they did a lot of good with it, but have you seen the size of Mournhold?
<Swiftoak> but im not one of those people who want to jab at it
<Swiftoak> LOL
<Gnomey154> Though come to think of it, maybe we should make Almalexia a hamlet.
<Swiftoak> it's a diffent game for another audience and
<Swiftoak> LOL
<Swiftoak> almalexia is well....almalexia
<Gnomey154> Yeah.
<Swiftoak> i ocne thought of it as a garden
<Swiftoak> the word "garden" comes up alot in my ivsion of indoril
<Swiftoak> like their false utopia is about to collapse or something
<Swiftoak> in any case the orethan river should have some significance
<Gnomey154> Yeah, I think a garden works pretty well for Indoril, too.
<Swiftoak> river barges as transportation
<Swiftoak> like think of it
<Gnomey154> Yeah, though again I think the basic culture needs to be hammered first, and then the logistics of implementation should follow.
<Swiftoak> the indoril are obsessed with regulation
<Swiftoak> much like the gardener is always trimming the plans and weeds
<Swiftoak> to fit their ideal image
<Gnomey154> I still like my idea that almost all things Indoril are communal.
<Gnomey154> Tradehouses, craftmer's halls, Tongs...
<Swiftoak> mmm
<Swiftoak> every plant has it's role to play
<Swiftoak> LOL i might be taking it too far
<Swiftoak> but you know
<Swiftoak> like im trying to find out why/how the outlander would get involved
<Gnomey154> In Indoril?
<Swiftoak> like this is a little forward thinking, but their advancement in indoril
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Swiftoak> should not be seen as much of an achievement, but moreso something out of desperation
<Gnomey154> Well, my wacky idea was that you have to convince enough people/important enough people that you are the higher rank.
<Swiftoak> watching their ideal vision of resdayn unwrap
<Gnomey154> Act like a councilman, and you will be seen as a councilman.
<Gnomey154> In Indoril, more than any other House, the player would effectively be forced to 'go native'.
<Swiftoak> that would be a neat avenue to pursue
<Gnomey154> If you convince Indoril that your current rank is incorrect, they will correct it, basically.
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Gnomey154> The player may also very well represent part of the creeping corruption that is gnawing at Indoril,
<Swiftoak> mmm
<Gnomey154> even if he helps Indoril last a little longer.
<Swiftoak> post the ideas maybe?
<Gnomey154> Not due to the player's actions, but due to the player's being.
<Swiftoak> mmm
<Gnomey154> Yeah, I think that might be worthwhile.
<Gnomey154> Should I get on that?
<Swiftoak> sure
<Swiftoak> i thought about wings
<Swiftoak> their sigil
<Swiftoak> what does it mean?
<Gnomey154> Ah.
<Gnomey154> That seemed random at first.
<Swiftoak> could we tie it to nerevar?
<Gnomey154> They're supposed to symbolize Indoril superiority, basically.
<Swiftoak> right
<Gnomey154> But we could work on that.
<Gnomey154> As it's a little flat.
<Gnomey154> Perhaps they are the wings that support the scarab that is the Velothi people?
<Gnomey154> And allow it to rise to greatness
<Swiftoak> ooh
<Swiftoak> i thought about incorporating them into like clothes
<Swiftoak> idk
<Swiftoak> too much perhaps
<Gnomey154> As actualy wings sticking out?
<Swiftoak> maybe
<Swiftoak> idk we have white robes and shirts right?
<Gnomey154> Hard to get this sort of image out of my mind: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-htEJf4d6pTk/UA3D-q1HB3I/AAAAAAAAEbE/S0eN9aljU80/s1600/Fairy+Ballerina.jpg
<Gnomey154> when you talk about incorporating wings.
<Gnomey154> :-P
<Swiftoak> ahahaha
<Swiftoak> maybe not then
<Gnomey154> I assume that's not what you're talking about, though.
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Swiftoak> no i want to incorporate something stylistic and iconic
<Gnomey154> I think on the ceremonial armour of Indoril lords portruding wings might work,
<Swiftoak> but the white robs might already be that
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Swiftoak> thats the thing
<Gnomey154> But otherwise maybe something like large epaulets?
<Gnomey154> Then there's that Morrowind robe with the giant fly on the front.
<Swiftoak> epaulets?
<Gnomey154> (As in the bug).
<Gnomey154> http://www.vipdictionary.com/img/epaulet5.jpg
<Gnomey154> This sort of thing.
<Gnomey154> But wing-like.
<Swiftoak> oooh
<Swiftoak> yeah
<Gnomey154> http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/737728399/Wholesale-high-fashion-PUNK-alloy-silver-tassel-brooch-beads-epaulet-epaulette-shoulder-loop-Punk-Jewelry-Free.jpg
<Swiftoak> isnt their bonemold already sorta like that?>
<Gnomey154> Yeah, true.
<Swiftoak> but i could whip some designs
<Gnomey154> But they could have wings draped down their arms like the latter link, sort of.
<Gnomey154> I look forward to seeing your designs.
<Swiftoak> yeah a significer of ranks perhaps?
<Gnomey154> Hm...
<Gnomey154> That could work, but they could also jsut be decorative.
<Swiftoak> yeah[/spoiler]

Don't mind the spelling and grammar. Discusses various elements of Indoril and Velothi culture and visuals, among other things.

[Yeti]

We probably should iron out the basics of standard Dunmer culture and how to make it interesting in a separate planning thread. How do we portray Dunmer who don't fit into Great House categories? What features of their culture are universal, or at least close to universal? How do we make the standard Dunmer character tropes compelling and fleshed out in-game, so that the player won't become bored when visiting a Velothi village?

[Sload]

Idea for a House Indoril faction outline.

Part I: Hireling ( -> Oathman))

If the player asks after joining House Indoril, people will scoff at them. An outlander join House Indoril? House Indoril is kin to the Tribunal! You can't just sign up! You'll never be an Indoril. But if you're looking for work, so-and-so at the Council Hall can assign you. In fact, the Seneschal of the House, Indoril Alveth Sandil, has need of a personal courier.

The player runs errands for Alveth Sandil, delivering messages and somehow doing something that isn't just run-to-quest-point-A, run-to-quest-point-B. In the course of these events they meet the major characters and get an idea of their personalities. They are repeatedly assured of what a great leader Indoril Neril Dorom, the Grand Ascendant, is; however, he is minorly ill and not receiving guests right now. The player becomes Sandil's bodyman.

Eventually there is a quest in which the player has the opportunity to perform some really valuable action unprompted (saving Sandil's life? I don't know). Sandil speaks to the player about whether or not they would be interested in a life of service. Here is the offer: the player can become kin to Nerevar through marriage. Sandil offers a cousin or something to be betrothed to the player, if the player accepts, the player joins House Indoril as an Oathman.

Part II: Marriage (Oathman -> Kinsman -> Creedman)

The player performs the rituals necessary to marry into the Indoril. There should be several of these. The last is a ritual bathing with the father-in-law who sponsored the marriage at Dreynim Spa the night before the wedding. Alveth Sandil waits for the player. The wedding sequence, which should be timed carefully so as not to be goofy, is initiated when the player talks to Sandil at Dreynim Spa.

During the meeting at Dreynim Spa, Sandil confesses a secret truth to the player: Neril Dorom is dead. Sandil, the Alma Rula, and Dorom's majordomo have been hiding that fact from the rest of the Indoril to prevent in-fighting. Sandil is putting a lot of the trust in the player.

The next day, the marriage happens. If the player doesn't show up, they broke their oath and are expelled from House Indoril. If the player shows up, a cinematic marriage event occurs, then right after its done an assassin of the Dark Brotherhood assassinated Alveth Sandil. GASP! This wasn't even sanctioned by the Morag Tong! Killing in the Cathedral of the Alma Rula? How dastardly! On the body of one of the assassins is evidence that the assassination was hired by House Hlaalu.

Part III: House War (Creedman -> Partisan -> Accorder -> Concordant Minister)

Indoril Draler Ilvi calls for a meeting of the Illuminated Elders of House Indoril to declare a House War against Hlaalu.
The player has the choice to reveal to Ilvi that Dorom is dead, which has some consequences?
The House War happens and the Indoril do well.
Whether the player told Ilvi or not, it comes out that Dorom is dead and Ilvi ends up becoming the new Grand Ascendant.

Part IV: Stronghold (Concordant Minister -> Lay Elder)

During the House War, as a reward for good work, the player is given the Inlet Bog as holdings. The player must work this and build up a stronghold and such. Once the player has got a good estate going and the house war is done, they will be recognized for what they are - one of the lay elders of the house.

Part V: Council Drama (Lay Elder -> Illuminated Elder -> Seneschal of the House -> Grand Ascendant)

Some second plot begins once the player is a Lay Elder which ends with the player as Grand Ascendant. But what? I have no idea. It should involve Ilvi's character flaws as being too old fashioned and out of touch.

Possibly, during this plot, it is revealed that the Dark Brotherhood was hired by someone other than the Hlaalu. TWIST!

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Possibly, during this plot, it is revealed that the Dark Brotherhood was hired by someone other than the Hlaalu. TWIST!

I would favour this. What do the Hlaalu have to gain by abandoning the ancient House War code in such a public way? If Hlaalu wanted Sandil dead they'd have him assassinated in his sleep and make sure there was nothing to trace the assassin back to them if he was caught. If they wanted a House War they'd stage something so they come across as the injured party defending themselves and Indoril look like the honourless aggressors.

[daedren]

I like Sload's proposal a lot, and agree with TDF's statement.

Could it have been some kind of internal rife on the Indoril side? Perhaps at Dreynim Spa, when Sandil tells the player about the death of Indoril Neril Dorom, someone overhears it somehow and it gets to one of the nobles. And that noble, who is behind this struggle of his for ascendance inside the house hierarchy, tries to frame the Hlaalu, but eventually is revealed as the culprit.

It could be this way that the player is able to get to Grand Ascendant: perhaps even with the avail of Indoril Draler Ilvi himself: we could make Ilvi kinda clusmy or irresponsable to some extent, for which the position of Grand Ascendant would not be compatible; then we could make him kind of put off with being in that position, having been pressured into accepting the role. And, as the player is revealed to be loyal and a good leader, he would be chosen by Ilvi himself as his natural successor.

It would even be possible for the player to have his first assignment as the Grand Ascendant: to assist in the trial of the noble responsible for the death of Sandil and his subsequent execution. It would be a great quest.

This way, we could see something that never occured before, in different ways: on one hand, we have an outlander becoming the leader of the Indoril; on the other, Ilvi, the Grand Ascendant, resigns from his duties in favor of the player, returning to do whatever he did before - something that had never happened before in the history of the House (something like Pope Benedict XVI). It would seem that the Indoril were starting to adapt to the new age, while in thruth they stay all the same like they were before, just with a new and "outlander" face. And that is seen only by the course of History, as the power of the house continues waning --> and bla bla what happens next in Elder Scrolls timeline.


On a technical side: how would the ceremony be handled?

[Aeven]

I was recently chatting with Swiftoak on IRC about a kind of mindset/state of mind which Indoril might have, and I got an idea of it being slightly similar to 'The Congress'.

In the film, almost everyone is in a totally drugged out state where everything seems fine and beautiful, but once the drugs are removed, the world shows itself to be a shithole. Basically, this transition from a kind of paradise into reality is what I meant by this state of mind for Indoril. They are, as it were, waking up from this dream, and shown the nightmare of their reality.

[EJRS]

I like the idea of Alveth Sandils assassination as a part of some struggle within house Indoril. Here is a sketch for taking things in that direction:

Part I: Hireling ( -> Oathman)

Since you would be working as a courier, the valuable action preformed could be to uncover a plot against his life while carrying messages. There are several ways this could be triggered, here is a concept off the top of my head:

You are sent to the home of (someone of Indoril association*) with (paperwork of some kind: a message, a protocol, a ledger etc.). On delivering the message, you are given a (return letter, proof that the delivery was received etc.) and since you will be out and about anyway, you are also given a message to be delivered to (another person of Indoril association*) along the way. However, on your way out, you are somehow tipped off that this message contains (incriminating details concerning a plot against Alveth Sandil).

Turning this message over to Alveth, you are given at least one further task to counter this plot and bring the guilty to justice. Upon completion, Alveth offers you marriage to his sister/brother/son/daughter/cousin.


Later

Everything happens as per Sloads suggestion. Later down the line, it is revealed that the person responsible for Alveth's killing is none other than (...pause for suspense...) your bethrothed!
The motive behind the killing is twofold:

-She considers Alveth as betraying house Indoril by being too tolerant towards outlanders (final offence: marrying her off to an outlander!), and too lax in dealing with the threats against the house. By eliminating him, she inherits his title, giving her more power to deal with the perceived threats. She is one of the few Indoril who fully realizes the state of decline the house is in.

-Framing house Hlaalu and thus setting off a house war, so that the Indoril are forced to deal with the threat they pose.

This would also make for an interesting end quest as per daedrens (very good) suggestion. It would also be awesome, because this way, it is implied that your actions will, further down the line, be the cause of the final collapse of house Indoril, by eliminating the one person with the clarity and vision to mobilize the house against their enemies.

*These people should not be nobles, that would be too big, but rather someone higher up in the hierarchy in the lands controlled by Alveth, thus also keeping the quests starting quests in the immediate vicinity of Alveth.

Snip

I like the concept, although I think it should be a bit toned down. However, I think this could form the basis for a wonderful character: an Indoril noble in some of the remote manors, who has totally retreated into his mind, a fantasy world of Indoril utopia, with his loyal staff and retainers acting along with his delusion out of sheer loyalty.

[Bero]

I think i would be great if you could remain married (not killing your betrothed) after finishing questline. It would be something unique.
How will we deal with male/female problem? Especially if your wife/husband are important for story.

[daedren]

Snip

I like your suggestions, EJRS. But, concerning the Hireling quests, wouldn't it be better if we have more "business" and "burocracy"-focused quests for the player, instead of a plot to kill Sandil? Those would pretty much show the character of house Indoril; besides, one thing is having one person (the player's bethrothed) wanting to kill Sandil, but to also have a plot of someone else against his life (of at least two other people in the house, according to your suggeston) wouldn't be too much on Sandil? He's the Seneschal of the House, yes, but what would make him such a sought-after character by his own kin, and not some other noble, for instance? Besides, the player is an outlander and a hireling: why would someone higher in the house hierarchy trust the player with a message which could encriminate them, from all the people affiliated with House Indoril that they would know and befriend?

Perhaps we could use something like that suggestion of yours but, instead of the player uncovering a plot to murder Sandil, those two Indoril could have a plot to make some personal profit off of Sandil's possessions (or not give him all he was due, or something along these lines). This way, the player's bethrothed's idea would have more impact, as he/she would apparently be the only one inside the house either capable and corageous enough to try something like that (and succeed), or he/she would seem like the only person actually trying to change the status quo of the House.

I like the concept, although I think it should be a bit toned down. However, I think this could form the basis for a wonderful character: an Indoril noble in some of the remote manors, who has totally retreated into his mind, a fantasy world of Indoril utopia, with his loyal staff and retainers acting along with his delusion out of sheer loyalty.

Yes, Aeven's concept would be great to caricature the house. But I think it should be applied, as EJRS said, to just one person inside the House, with his retainers acting along with his dream (and, as EJRS said, having the lord of one of the most remote manors being this character would make more "sense"). This way, by exaggerating the overall character of the whole House in a microcosm like a manor-estate, we would show the players a more immediate and less subtle portrait of the true Indoril spirit and character, while at the same time saving the House as a whole of looking like a cheesy group of "dreamers" (pardon the conotation, eheheh).

I think i would be great if you could remain married (not killing your betrothed) after finishing questline. It would be something unique.
How will we deal with male/female problem? Especially if your wife/husband are important for story.

I think having the bethrothed being executed in the end of the questline would actually be the best way to do things. The player is not supposed to actually marry someone, I think it strays out too much from the original Morrowind feel. The player is not supposed to actually "settle", ever, during his temporary stay in Morrowind. That would go against the idea of the Neverarine exiled in Akavir, for example. I know this is rumours, but still: having the player actually marry someone (and staying married in the end) would go against the outlander-who-never-actually-blends-in-independently-of-how-much-he-does-for-morrowind-and-the-dunmer philosophy.

As for the female/male question, having Sandil have two possibilities, one male and other female, and suggesting one of them according to the player's sex, would be a way of dealing with that problem.

[Gnomey]

Yeah, I assume we would have two NPCs who might become your betrothed. It's quite possible they would only appear in-game when we need them anyway, which is how vanilla Morrowind usually handled such things, though I certainly wouldn't mind them being established NPCs. (Compare the first House Hlaalu questline in Vvardenfell).

There are two points about having the betrothed orchestrate the conspiracy: first of all, the idea made me think of Almalexia: married to Nerevar, quite likely as a way of elevating his position, and then betraying him. You could even stretch the comparison a little to give Sandil a Dumac-ish position as a friend of Nerevar who ends up getting killed partly through the actions of the Tribunal. I am not sure whether that association is a good or bad thing.
The second point is that it is one straightforward way to make the conspirator someone the player knows and may have even interacted with during the questline. If we pull it off right, the twist might even come as a surprise because players expected the betrothed to simply exist for the purpose of getting the player into Indoril.

If the DB contractor was the betrothed, I don't think the player would necessarily need to murder him or her at the end, though that would certainly be one option. Perhaps the player can sic the Morag Tong on his betrothed, perhaps the player can fight his betrothed in a duel in which the betrothed might send a champion to fight instead, or perhaps the player can have a chat and reach some sort of uncomfortable understanding. The marriage is political, after all. Having it based upon an ugly truth could serve to make it more interesting.
And in that vein, I don't think leaving the player married is any problem at all. It is a political marriage. The player may never actually speak to his partner, depending on what an Indoril wedding ceremony entails. The player might never even see the partner unless he goes out of his way to do so.

Either way, I like the idea of the assassination having been orchestrated from within House Indoril, but I wouldn't necessarily build up a big story behind it. I think that idea serves a far more elegant narrative function in revealing how far House Indoril has already fallen, and I don't think it needs to do anything beyond that.
I do think the way the player could get into Sandil's good graces would be by saving his life, but that could literally involve the player beating back an assassin mid fed-ex quest.