An Almalexia Proposal

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:38 pm

Interesting. Thanks for letting me know.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:37 pm

Where can we fit Lud's cathedral of the masses in this redesign?

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:03 am

My suggestion would be in the lower reaches of the city. It may be a rich building, but that's kind of the point of it. Indoril 'provides' to the poor, where they think it matters.

Post by **rot** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:12 am

Also re: delaying the DB attack (which will have to be done either way) the script itself doesn't have to be edited (and probably shouldn't). It can simply be stopped from ingame.

Lord Berandas · Post by **Lord Berandas** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:21 am

How about finishing all the other TR content before messing with Almalexia and Tribunal? IMO at the end this is going to cause more problems than you think and it's probably going to be more complicated.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:48 am

Berandas that's one of the most unproductive things I've read on the forum in ages.

There've been some convo's on IRC which deal with the issues, and I think based on that a more technical person will be able to post what was suggested. It's a pretty workable solution.

Post by **rot** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:37 am

On the contrary, the question of whether having to deal with Tribunal is more unproductive than making TR's own content is very relevant.

I'ma make a prediction - half-arsed implementation. TR will do the same thing it's always done: rush for what people want to do ASAP, and leave what has to be done (integrating Tribunal) for "later".

Lord Berandas · Post by **Lord Berandas** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:15 am

Aeven wrote:Berandas that's one of the most unproductive things I've read on the forum in ages.

Well, sorry to hear that, but my post wasn't meant to be exactly productive.
I'm trying to point out, that TR spent ages working on Almalexia, which is now at the state that apparentaly needs re-working, now you want to integrate whole datadisc into it and merge stuff. Remember that simply looking re-creating or merging stuff is sometimes more difficult than creating completely new content.
I don't know the exact technical details of this process, but the problems might appear through time and the experience says they will. I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve that, just that it's going to take a lot of time and resources.
So I am asking if it's not better release/leave Almalexia as is, finish the unfinished stuff around and then return to it.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:57 am

Lord Berandas, if you have doubts, I encourage you to come on IRC. This thread currently consists of some 47 short posts, which necessarily never capture all the details. This might give you the impression this is a spur-of-the-moment decision and treating it as such is likely to make others believe the same. It is not. In fact, this whole plan is months in the making and is the result of a careful comparison of various factors such as feasibility, workload and, most importantly, the degree to which it actually makes our product better. It has been discussed extensively for the last couple of days. It's created activity, enthusiasm and creativity.

What Aeven means by unproductive is simply stating that a plan is stupid and then leaving it at that. So far, the discussions concerning this have been very serene, which everyone seems to appreciate a lot. No one is afraid to hear counterarguments, provided they are rational and motivated.

There also seems to be a lot of confusion about the technical implementation of this plan. As was stated before, this plan requires us to fully analyze exactly what and how we're gonna do before we even think about getting started. Again, anyone has opinions or ideas about it, I'd encourage them to come join the discussion.

However, the plan in its current, embryonic form is that we leave the vanilla Mournhold exactly as it is (including gameplay content), in a completely isolated interior world space. Meanwhile we build our own Almalexia in a planned, manageable way in the main world space. The only thing we alter about the vanilla Tribunal at all is the way you reach it. For example, we could alter the mage's teleport script, to give you a dialog box asking whether you want to go our city or to the Tribunal expansion. This way, people can install TR and those who really still want to play the expansion can do so with a minimum of interruption. The two just exist entirely in parallel.

Eventually, when, we begin populating our Almalexia with NPCs and quests, we can copy any content from Tribunal we like. "Copying" here means "re-implementing". There's no conflicting NPC instances involved, no redirecting script references, no complicated journal checks. We just build them again, in the way that TR has already created far more complex game content and that was without most of the work having been done for us and without potential bugs clearly documented on various wikis.

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:38 pm

I don't like that plan. The plan I like is the most difficult one and that is to destroy old tribunal and make our own (implementing all vanilla quests and NPCs). Honestly Bethesda created great game but their interiors usually suck.

I see what is Berandas point (at least I think). We should decide whether we want to finish some other stuff first (OE, Stonefalls and other stuff we might want to finish soon), or start working on Alma.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:01 pm

Bero, that is basically what we're doing. We leave the actual cells, NPCs etc intact, but decouple it from what the player will generally experience. This keeps full compatibility and at the same time allows us to create a new 'Tribunal', as it were.

As for working on other stuff first: the entire reason we have sections is so work can be done semi-autonomously. And it's not as though we were always working on the exact same thing all together at once in the past.

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:55 pm

Yeah I kinda forget that we work on everything at the same time

And I like this idea but lets make it so that player must use coc to visit vanilla tribunal.

Ashstaar · Post by **Ashstaar** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:09 pm

I think altering or removing an OFFICIAL EXPANSION as important as the story/events are in Tribunal is ridiculous. And doing all this along with redesigning Almalexia AGAIN, even so much as to obliterate the OFFICIAL design is going to delay this what, another three years? It would be possible I believe to copy/paste the existing Mournhold world cells to the proper location in TR's Almalexia. Then just change travel markers, scripts, etc. to the new location. This would keep it somewhat like the original. Keeping all OFFICIAL content.

abot · Post by **abot** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:24 pm

Now that it is possible, I will post here a longer/hopefully clearer version of what I wrote in the official forums.
In short, what I value most is respect.

- respect of modders work. No TR modder should have years of modding devoted to the project (especially when work is vastly recognized as astounding work) scrapped for decisions/considerations taken after work is done, no matter what.
Changes could eventually be discussed and approved with the agrrement of who did the work (e.g. moving Sandil Manor...), not imposed
- respect of fan base/players. If you are not modding only for yourself, when in doubt on possible important development alternatives, explain the possibilities, ask and listen to the base (e.g. polls); give to the base verdict a weighted importance if you like, but don't bypass them.
Respect for players may also include:
- valuing compatibility, with both already started player games and player possible playing decision (e.g. allowing Bethesda Tribunal quests/extra mods while playing TR)
- being open and transparent in official Bethesda Forums. Trying to elude uncomfortable questions will never work well.
- respecting planned/promised milestones withouth repeatedly delaying/redoing things

In short, I have nothing against the proposed grand unified vision of the Indoril people reflected in their architecture/landscape. But I value it less then previous points, so I think it would be better eventually applied for TR parts not already as developed as Almalexia.

Regarding the proposal

to overhaul the high-concept structure of the exterior of Almalexia to achieve these goals: a) make the size of the city more manageable; b) improve the city's internal logic, both for player-navigation and narrative representation; c) preserve the scenic beauty that the city's present exterior has achieved.

I think a), c) can be done replacing some buildings with plazas/gardens/vegetation/simpler buildings...

b) It achieves these goals through somewhat drastic measures, including most notably the complete removal of the version of Mournhold depicted in Tribunal.

I think this is a the real big problem

Very little internal logic makes Almalexia navigable. The only navigation feature baked into its design is the existence of a raised Mournhold to give the player an idea of which direction to head as they circumnavigate that object.

Personally I appreciate feeling lost in an enormous city while playing

The only navigation feature baked into its design is the existence of a raised Mournhold

There is no high-concept for Almalexia. It is just a big and beautiful city in the MH set

only? just? enough for me

The second challenge is more prickly: integrating Tribunal locations without (significantly) breaking functionality. Exactly what Tribunal elements we consider essential to keep when playing with our mod could be debatable: if we delete Glarthir, for example, is it really a great loss to the game? What about the naked nord in the Plaza Brindisi Dorom whose just sunbathing lol? Perhaps more difficult: the stage play quest? Players like that quest, but a) is it even in keeping with our tone? b) do we need to have it? To add another complication: even if we want such-and-such ultimately implemented, what needs to be implemented now? This is a conversation that TR needs to take seriousl.

I feel obligated to raise the particular functionality issue which is most pressing, because it is both rather difficult and rather essential: the fight in Plaza Brindisi Dorom between fabricants and high ordinators. Even ignoring the toughness of re-implementing this event, it might bonk up peoples' games if it takes place in the overworld. We'd need to have a workaround for players whose computers can't handle it in that case.

I have seen posts already explaining technical problems with all this, so not much to add at the moment, other than say that the mere evaluation of time/resources needed is a daunting task

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:26 am

Tamriel Rebuilt's processes call for lead and senior developers to vote on proposals like this prior to implementing them after a period of public discussion.

As a result of this discussion, I want to amend my proposal to incorporate an explicit path of implementation:

For initial implementation, no modification will be made to any of the content of Tribunal.esm in the main .esm file. The Dark Brotherhood quest will initiate and players will be able to travel to the Mournhold worldspace just as they always have been able to.
Though the Mournhold worldspace contains dialog indicating that it exists on the Morrowind mainland, there will be no location in our exterior worldspace equivalent to that worldspace.
Our project shall determine what elements implemented in Tribunal.esm we want to re-implement in the Almalexia section.
Once all of these elements have been re-implemented, the DB attack script will be modified to deactivate it in TR_Mainland.esm, making Tribunal.esm content inaccessible. Until then, a .esp will be distributed which deactives the script, allowing players who don't want the Tribunal.esm content to exclude it.

Post by **rot** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:59 am

Sload wrote:the DB attack script will be modified to deactivate it in TR_Mainland.esm

rot wrote:Also re: delaying the DB attack (which will have to be done either way) the script itself doesn't have to be edited (and probably shouldn't). It can simply be stopped from ingame.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:32 am

OK, I've read this proposal and I will tell you what I think are good and bad ideas.

-Removing all Tribunal content and integrating only some of it in the worldspace will break a lot of mods. Including Emma's companion mods, Julan and Mournhold Expanded. And if Tribunal content was completely removed, what about Sotha Sil and its expansion? Would we not be able to access it?

-Having MH in the centre is pretty jarring for a few reasons which were outlined above. But here's another one - it's inconsistent with Mournhold Expanded. The newly added districts are so big that it would be nearly impossible for me to integrate it to the exterior.

-While I'd like a redone Almalexia, I wonder if the lore explicitly states that Mournhold is right in the centre of the city?

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:53 am

@Envy123: I believe the only things TR is inclined to accommodate are Bethesda's work. I expect all of those mods you named, in their current state, will be obsoleted by TR eventually, needing patches by their creators to continue working with TR.

@Sload's proposal: I like it a lot, for the most part, there's not anything big I would change. The only thing I want to say is this: if you're going to recreate Mournhold outside, then the "official" TR experience should be that. Holding onto the original vanilla interiors is fine where it works (especially the Daedric and Dwemer ruins + Sotha Sil), but update things where it makes sense too; don't hold anything crappy above reproach.

Lastly, this experience needs to be seemless. Alex25 had a great point. early on, here:

alex25 wrote:As long as people don't drop items in the old fake exteriors then the transition shouldn't affect their saves.

This cannot be allowed to be possible. It would be extremely game breaking for all kinds of quests if the player is unable to return to fake exteriors to retrieve dropped items.

This is the opportunity to expunge false exteriors from the Morrowind experience. They are stupid, they are crappy, and you can do better.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:53 am

Envy123 wrote:
-While I'd like a redone Almalexia, I wonder if the lore explicitly states that Mournhold is right in the centre of the city?

I can't seem to edit my above post for some reason.

Anyway, I checked UESP and it says Mournhold is in the heart of Almalexia.

In Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC, there is a letter which mentions Mournhold.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:51 am

@Envy123: Mournhold Expanded is, quite frankly, not something we as Tamriel Rebuilt need to consider rebuilding into the exterior.

As for the name Mournhold, it won't go anywhere. It will most likely be the name we give to the Royal Palace.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:32 am

@Aeven Understood.

I just want Almalexia to be lore-friendly as well as internally consistent. This [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:To_Milore_from_Nilara]letter[/url] from Dragonborn seems to mention the name Mournhold and not Almalexia. It also mentions the places which were from Tribunal.

Not sure if the lore that states that Mournhold is the inner city of Almalexia is official, as the UESP seems to be the only one which mentions it. But I think the above letter does imply that Mournhold is somehow related to Almalexia in some way.

To alleviate that, Almalexia could have most of the important locations from Tribunal but grander. So, the Mournhold Temple, Barenziah's Palace, the Brindsi Dorom Plaza...etc. If this will be the case, then I would treat Tribunal's Mournhold, as well as any mods of it, as an old part of the city which was superseded by a bigger and better city.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:13 am

In an expansion pack to TESV that is basically TESIII fan-service, obviously there is going to be a reference to "Mournhold" and its locations in Tribunal, rather than "Almalexia." That does not constitute a story-constricting statement which we must abide to the detriment of our project. In fact, nothing in Bethesda must be followed if it will be to the detriment to our project, which is to create a compelling open-world RPG which is a thematically appropriate expansion of TESIII. This includes elements of TESIII, many of which are clearly the result of game limitations.

swit · Post by **swit** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:05 am

- respect of modders work. No TR modder should have years of modding devoted to the project (especially when work is vastly recognized as astounding work) scrapped for decisions/considerations taken after work is done, no matter what.

This. I like the new concept, but the whole discussion should have been made few years ago, not now once the whole exterior is finished and present a good quality.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:40 am

swit wrote:
- respect of modders work. No TR modder should have years of modding devoted to the project (especially when work is vastly recognized as astounding work) scrapped for decisions/considerations taken after work is done, no matter what.
This. I like the new concept, but the whole discussion should have been made few years ago, not now once the whole exterior is finished and present a good quality.

Added up, it's not years of work. And I don't mind.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:45 am

Sload wrote:In an expansion pack to TESV that is basically TESIII fan-service, obviously there is going to be a reference to "Mournhold" and its locations in Tribunal, rather than "Almalexia." That does not constitute a story-constricting statement which we must abide to the detriment of our project. In fact, nothing in Bethesda must be followed if it will be to the detriment to our project, which is to create a compelling open-world RPG which is a thematically appropriate expansion of TESIII. This includes elements of TESIII, many of which are clearly the result of game limitations.

I've read the proposal again and I've noticed some things which don't sound right. I even went on the CS and surveyed the area where Almalexia will eventually be. My original liking of the proposal has dimmed.

The NPCs say that Mournhold is on the mainland. Mournhold is a walled city with the southern gates leading to Almalexia, as per the original inner city concept. This new proposal wants to integrate some parts of Tribunal's Mournhold to the outside worldspace, but leave the original Tribunal intact.

The problem is: Mournhold still exists and it's cut off from Almalexia. There will likely be two Helseths, two Barenziahs and two goddesses by the name of Almalexia. It will seem very moddy IMO. Mournhold Expanded can duplicate Barenziah, because, hey, it's not lore friendly and was never supposed to be.

The proposal is fine for people who either play TR or Tribunal - but not fine for people who play both.

And I echo swit's words. This discussion was supposed to have been done a few years ago and not now when the city was redone an umpteenth time. Being a part of some Oblivion province mods, these discussions are usually done before the city is even marked on the map. And now, a lot of the work is likely to be thrown away in favor of this. Now, I like TR as much as the next person and the world building/quests are better than vanilla Morrowind. I just feel that TR is way too strict when it comes to Almalexia.

Just my two cents (not like my opinion matters anyway).

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:50 am

Considering what TESO did to Almalexia [url]http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140304024235/elderscrolls/images/0/08/Mournhold_Map.png[/url] we have right to do anything

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:55 am

Bero wrote:Considering what TESO did to Almalexia [url]http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140304024235/elderscrolls/images/0/08/Mournhold_Map.png[/url] we have right to do anything

That's different - ESO is set way before TES 3, so it makes sense that the city has changed its structure and expanded since then.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:21 pm

For the record, there wouldn't be "two of everyone", at least not in the way you imagine. When we're done, everything will be in our version anyway. We won't allude to the original, but we're not removing the actual assets and locations either. You won't get there in a normal gameplay manner, but only if you absolutely wish to play the original Expansion version.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:22 pm

How will Helseth and Barenziah be handled? Or they won't appear at all in the new Royal Palace?

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:29 pm

Of course they would. We'd create duplicate versions of them. If you choose to play the TR version, they're the only versions of them you'd EVER need to interact with.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:44 pm

Aeven wrote:Of course the would. We'd create duplicate versions of them. If you choose to play the TR version, they're the only versions of them you'd EVER need to interact with.

I'm sorry, I don't understand

Will the Almalexia Helseth have the same ID as the Tribunal one (so I can report back to either) or a new ID? Hopefully the latter, as LGNPC Tribunal may conflict with TR in the former.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:56 pm

While this is all still very much a technical issue, and I'm not a technical person, I think it's pretty safe to say our versions would have new IDs. I can't imagine a scenario where this wouldn't be the case. This would be true for any Tribunal content we decide to re-implement.

Envy123 · Post by **Envy123** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:03 pm

Thank you

roerich · Post by **roerich** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:37 pm

Are the Indoril platforms/plateaus supposed to be stonework or rocks? If the latter, the poor Velothi homes could be worked in to the cliffside like this:

[spoiler][img]http://i.imgur.com/WtuYm9j.png[/img][/spoiler]

That way a lot of interiors could be salvaged (with a search+replace from In_MH to In_V). My mockup is not how I want it to look, but to give an idea of the concept. It could also utilize some _OM pieces instead, but then the In_OM set would have to be expanded. I absolutely love the concept of vertical cities with the grand Indoril estates on top.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:38 pm

We're not mixing Velothi architecture and Mournhold architecture in Almalexia itself. Velothi is only for the commoner towns and villages in the rest of House Indoril's lands.

Post by **Seneca37** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:41 pm

Just my thoughts - late as they may be.

Adanorcil wrote:

I encourage you to come on IRC. This thread currently consists of some 47 short posts, which necessarily never capture all the details

All I ask is that if important discussions are held on IRC - please copy and past the discussion to a forum. Not everyone is on the same time schedule/nor stays logged in 24/7 with an infinite log - but we'd like to be kept in the loop. And if the details aren't here, then where are they?

I have to agree with Abot. I really don't see a problem with the current Alma. Why not add more quests to get the player more acquainted with it. It is my opinion, that it is the quests that make or break the game, not exteriors, nor interiors. Ext's and Int's may be cool to look at for awhile - but if I don't have anything to do, then I stop playing. This is why I joined TR - I ran out of TES mods to play and wanted to help you get more stuff out faster.

Finally, as a recent ex-gamer (stopped 3 months ago when I joined TR), if you kill my savegave I probably will not play. I've already played Tribunal - I've played the whole game at least 4 times. I currently have a good character - nice house/base of operations - plenty of stuff - I don't think I'd want to have to start all over again.

6plus · Post by **6plus** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:33 pm

seneca37 wrote:Finally, as a recent ex-gamer (stopped 3 months ago when I joined TR), if you kill my savegave I probably will not play. I've already played Tribunal - I've played the whole game at least 4 times. I currently have a good character - nice house/base of operations - plenty of stuff - I don't think I'd want to have to start all over again.

If we follow Sload's proposal (and for the record: I'm all for it), then nobody's savegame will be killed. All you have to do is move your stuff from Bethesda's fake exterior to TR's real exterior and (maybe) do some quests again.

Speaking of, it's actually trivial to add a global script to our mod which checks for finished Tribunal quests and e.g. disables Almalexia and other important people if the player already finished the Tribunal main quest.

Again I'm all for doing it Sload's way: it's not that hard to copy (and modify) dialogue/scripts etc. and we can surely do better than Bethesda. Their Mournhold is just badly thought out.

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:14 pm

Yeah heads up for important discussion would be great.
And how do we plan to make LC Alma? I seen some comments on it but no final consensus. I'd like combination of housing like Vivec has and poor houses. Having big poor district would be great imho.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:57 pm

I think most of us would agree a lower class part of Almalexia should not use Velothi, it'd look incredibly weird.

daedren · Post by **daedren** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:18 pm

Aeven, I think Bero was referring to the style of housing in Vivec (as in those apartments in St. Delyn canton, for example), rather than the architecture set.