A lack of Indoril towns ?

[Opiece]

First, I'd like to congratulate you all for the amazing work that's being done at TR
I would have loved to participate as well, but seeing that I'm not a skilled modder and that I don't really have enough time to be of any help, I just registered so that I could follow the project and sporadically post my thoughts on some stuff.


I've been very interested in all the discussions concerning the Indoril House and its problems. From what I've gathered, while the settlements are nearing full completion and ideas becoming more and more precise, the over-arching concept is still pretty much in works. I really like what you've come up with in the end, but one thing bugs me now: the lack of Indoril towns, or say, large settlements.

In part 4 of the Master Plan, Sload talks about the balance between Houses (the Temple being, IMHO, an exception since it's not so much a ruling faction). The idea of the points seemed good to me, as it allowed to more or less control the presence of each house in the game. While I got that these factions should probably not have the same total, they should be given points according to their importance and size. Judging by attachment B (the population density map) and the power struggle for Morrowind, the two main houses in terms of settlements and population should be Hlaalu and Indoril, Indoril being the current "ruling" house (IIRC, it goes downhill mainly after the events of TES III) and Hlaalu being the expected future "ruling" house. Now, I don't think the Indoril part of the Thirr River Valley reflects either the population density or Indoril presence I expected it to have. Being the most populous region of Morrowind with a part of it under the supervision of one of the most powerful houses, it felt rather bare to me.

Even if the mapping system of [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=253832#253832]this topic[/url] is obsolete, it gathered what I believe are most if not all of the Indoril settlements. [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24672&sid=f0fb294d2e6903b422c142b914a28a9d]This topic[/url] proposes to add a new settlement, yet only by using the deleted half of Othrensis. Originally, there were 4 large+ setttlements: Almalexia, Akamora, Roa Dyr and Othrensis. Out of these 4, only two have remained (Almalexia and Akamora), Roa Dyr being completely changed and Othrensis reduced in half. I hope not to have missed anything, but based on this map, even Akamora doesn't appear clearly (isn't it supposed to be Tier II ?). There are also loads of other towns, villages and castle-estates, so I guess density is not so much the problem outside of the TRV. If we were to use the point system suggested in the Master Plan, I don't necessarily think the Indoril would be too much below the other houses in terms of total (though I believe it could be improved). Yet, I think we would come up with an overwhelming amount of settlements in the Tier III and IV categories, while only having Almalexia and Akamora in Tiers I and II. In addition, shack and Velothi towns are not really compelling, and I doubt they would strike the player as being of major interest.
Basically, the Indoril territory would be made up of Almalexia, Akamora, a few medium and small-sized towns with castle-estates overlooking them. I believe you wanted to underline the isolated "snobbish" aspect of Indoril nobles, by making them leave separately and not giving too much the towns the MH tileset. While I'm not especially fond of that direction (I actually believe that they would take their pride by being in the middle of a big town aka the center of attention, in opposition to the Telvanni and not taking further the isolated vibe they give), it's not up to me to decide.

However, what would be the reason for Almalexia's existence then ? If the Indoril are following the classical feudal system of the Middle Ages, how come they have founded and currently hold the capital and biggest town of Morrowind ? That really feels like going from one extreme to another: on one hand, you have a huge town full of rich (= MH) buildings, and on the other hand you have small communities, supervised by separate castle-estates.
Despite all the amazing work you've done, the current display of the Indoril territory bugs me a lot and would feel out of place with all the amazing cities other houses are getting (yes, I'm looking at you, Kartur, Kogotel and Baan Malur).


tl;dr: I believe there are not enough Tier II Indoril towns using the MH tileset. I feel there is a huge and inexplicable contrast between Almalexia and Indoril lands.


Anyway, this is not my project so I'd be perfectly fine if you decided not to go my way; in the end, I'm not the one working. I hope my thoughts will be of some use




PS: if my topic is not in the right place, I apologise in advance. Similarly, I apologise for my bad English (I'm French)

[Marandahir]

Also a lurker here, so my opinions don't mean much. But from reading most every thread on this topic, I believe the "balanced" system has become a little bit obsolete as the new concept for Indoril is that the nobles either live in a much-enlarged Mournhold-Almalexia, or else in Castle-Estates spread throughout the Mournhold District. Indoril villages, towns, and cities simply don't exist; no one would deign to live outside of the Capital unless they had their own private Castle-Estate. Places like Roa Dyr and Akamora now looks like a fort/village-level settlement (Tier IV), because on the most current Master Planning Map, that's where Castle-Estates belong; they're essentially equivalent in size to Imperial Forts. Of course, that won't translate for Akamora for a while, it seems; the future of Map 1 and 2 areas is way down the line as they are focused on the Heartlands, Indoril, and especially the Thirr River Valley right now.

Other towns and villages that were once Indoril holdings, but were essentially peasantry with an estate lording over them have become Vélothi style and Temple holdings, such as Bosmora, Sailen, and Othrensis. That fits in-line with the Indoril lore concept of them not as fief-barons ruling over towns and villages, which sets them apart quite a bit from the feel of Hlaalu. This is also related to why a lot of Telvanni towns are theoretically being reduced to Telvanni Towers (also Imperial-Fort/village level, Tier IV settlements): Telvanni don't live in towns, they live in solitary towers. The Telvanni are wizards and their entourage; only the two cities of Sadrith Mora, Gah Sadrith, and also the capital, Port Telvannis, are real "towns" of Telvanni occupation. This also is related to the separation of Tel Narrusa from Helnim (akin to the separation of Vos and Tel Vos).

In short, Indoril doesn't need balance. Nonlinearity that breeds interesting stories is far more important than a balance of tiered settlements. And because Indoril is deeply involved in the Temple hierarchy, you might imagine that to the Indoril, all the Temple-held towns are in-fact, the Indorils' towns.

Again, I'm an outsider looking in here as well. I imagine people like Sload would have a lot more to say if they deemed this worth their time.

[gro-Dhal]

I think you sum it up pretty well Marandahir

[Opiece]

I hope you won't change Akamora too much, only because I like its current design a lot :p

I understand the reasons behind the current concept for Indoril settlements, and though I don't necessarily like it (I admit I prefer the classic fief-barons), it will work just fine.

However, even if they won't be in the MH tileset, I believe some Velothi towns could benefit of a size-up. The Indoril lands are among the most populous in Morrowind, so it doesn't make much sense to me that they would mainly consist of Almalexia and several Tier III/IV towns. It would also be rather original, as there's no vanilla Tier II town in the Velothi style (Vivec being an exception).

Another thing still bugs me: if the Indoril were to have always lived with such a system, how come they have founded Almalexia? I believe the Indoril house existed prior to Almsivi becoming gods, so Almalexia is a rather "recent" city. What would explain its creation, if the Indoril have always ruled this territory? Having the Indoril govern the biggest city of Morrowind and otherwise live in complete isolation seems rather extreme. Moreover, the Old Mornhould ruins suggest that the Indoril used to rule over other big cities in the past, such as Dun Akafell. Why wouldn't it be the case anymore? What would be the reason for such a radical change, operated by one of the most conservative houses? While I don't believe you necessarily have to make changes if you don't want to, I believe it would be better if we had an answer to these questions in-game.

I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, because your work is amazing and impressive

[Gnomey]

Almalexia is an exception, which is not actually very rare; many capital cities, both modern and historical, stand apart from other settlements of the same nation.

Almalexia also has a rather unique history and situation: it is a very old city that became the home of a living god, got completely razed, and then got rebuilt under the guidance of said god while Morrowind was at its height, and now houses that god, the King of Morrowind and the council of the still-sort-of-strongest House.

One could compare it to a simplistic version of France at the time of Louis XIV: Almalexia is Paris and Versailles rolled into one, where all the nobles want to be and where a lot of poor people etc. end up. Then you have the rural country-estates of the nobility, and then you have the random towns and villages of the peasants.

I would personally like to see more Tier IIIs and Tier IVs, but I sort of like House Indoril not controlling any Tier IIs. It sort of illustrates the gap between rich and poor, as well as the disconnect between the Indoril and the people of Morrowind, and the exclusivity of House Indoril.

[Opiece]

Almalexia is an exception, which is not actually very rare; many capital cities, both modern and historical, stand apart from other settlements of the same nation.

Is it that common, though? From my limited knowledge, only Paris and London are similar to Almalexia. Whether it be Bern, Madrid, Roma, Berlin, Brussels, ... All these towns have equivalent towns in their respective countries, population-wise (Zurich, Geneva, Barcelona, Naples, Turin, Milan, Frankfurt, Antwerp, ...).
Anyways, I'm just nitpicking here. Your point still stands and Almalexia can be considered an exception, just like Paris and London are.

Almalexia also has a rather unique history and situation: it is a very old city that became the home of a living god, got completely razed, and then got rebuilt under the guidance of said god while Morrowind was at its height, and now houses that god, the King of Morrowind and the council of the still-sort-of-strongest House.

But then, if Almalexia the goddess has such an importance in Almalexia the town's reconstruction and governance, why would it be considered an Indoril town? It would make more sense if it worked like Vivec: under the direct supervision of the said god, with the help of the Temple and its ordinators. In the Mournhold of Tribunal, Almalexia's ordinators are already "seconded" by Helseth's royal guards. Having both ordinators, royal guards and Indoril guards supeervising Almalexia the city seems overly complicated and unnecessary, unless you have already found a solution to that issue.
I guess you could argue that Almalexia has important ties with the Indoril house, but Vivec also happens to clearly state his preference for the Redoran. I might be getting carried away though; I suppose the Indoril seat being in Almalexia is lore-based, so it's not like you have any way to work around that.

One could compare it to a simplistic version of France at the time of Louis XIV: Almalexia is Paris and Versailles rolled into one, where all the nobles want to be and where a lot of poor people etc. end up. Then you have the rural country-estates of the nobility, and then you have the random towns and villages of the peasants.

I'm not too sure about that comparison. France is (or was, in that case) an extremely centralised state, where Paris concentrated all the power (and even more so under Louis XIV). Morrowind has a very peculiar status, with an overly complicated governing system: everything has to be shared between the Imperials, the monarchy (arguably the same as the Empire), the houses and the Temple. Thus, it is not as centralised as France, as there are local seats for regional governing (Narsis, Baan Malur, Tear, ...).
Moreover, Paris's importance in France did not fully stop the development of other cities, such as Nantes, Bordeaux, Reims, Orléans, ... However, much like other Tier II and III towns in Morrowind, these cities served a specific purpose, usually centered around trade. Though it should not be emphasised as much as with the Hlaalu, I think Indoril settlements should reflect where the Indoril power comes from (I don't know that much on that topic, so I'll leave it up to you).

I would personally like to see more Tier IIIs and Tier IVs, but I sort of like House Indoril not controlling any Tier IIs. It sort of illustrates the gap between rich and poor, as well as the disconnect between the Indoril and the people of Morrowind, and the exclusivity of House Indoril.

I wouldn't be against more Tier IIIs and Tier IVs either, anything that emphasises more population density in these areas seems good to me.
However, I believe it could be interesting to develop a Tier II town in the Velothi tileset: it hasn't been done yet, and it might bring in some more originality. It would also further highlight the population density of the region, while preserving the Indoril isolation (castle-estates would still be separate from that town).

While I like the idea of underlining the gap between rich and poor, I'm not too fond of the disconnection between the Indoril and the people of Morrowind. That gives me too much of a Telvanni vibe, as if the Indoril were irresponsible leaders, ignoring the people they govern. I feel they should be more disdainful than disconnected, because they know they are better, and they know their purpose is to rule over and enlighten these ignorant masses. I think Indoril nobles should be over confident about their ruling of their people, as if they knew exactly how to rule them without really understanding or knowing anything about them.

[Gnomey]

Is it that common, though?

Well, there's a reason why I included historical capitals in that comment. Rome, Constantinople, (I think) Cairo, Kyoto (again, speaking from limited knowledge) and several Mesoamerican cities fit the description at different times, and to differing extent.

But then, if Almalexia the goddess has such an importance in Almalexia the town's reconstruction and governance, why would it be considered an Indoril town?

The city was probably the Indoril capital before the Tribunal became gods. Almalexia herself was probably a leader of House Indoril. (Not too sure on this one). In fact, I believe that House Indoril claims relation to Nerevar and all of the Tribunal.
House Indoril also sees itself as the governing House of Morrowind, and basically superior to the other Houses.

As to how this will pan out, Almalexia will basically be divided in three: Kingsreach, Godsreach and Moon & Star, the latter being the Indoril district. The poor population will basically be squished between those districts. The full proposal for Almalexia is [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0]here[/url].

I'm not too sure about that comparison.

House Indoril itself is very centralized, and in my analogy France is House Indoril, not all of Morrowind. The Temple is more like the papacy, the other Houses are neighbouring nations, and the Indoril don't really spare much consideration for the Empire and the puppet monarchy it set up. But, as with all analogies, mine certainly has its limits.

While I like the idea of underlining the gap between rich and poor, I'm not too fond of the disconnection between the Indoril and the people of Morrowind.

The way I see it, Indoril and Telvanni are extremes that end up having more in common than the Indoril, at least, would like to admit.
While the Telvanni simply do not care about the Dunmer living below their towers, the Indoril wish to better their people. They tend to get so caught up in their ideals, and how they think Morrowind should be, that they are starting to forget to actually rule the province and try and make their ideals a reality, or really look at reality at all.
The ones who do recognize the rift between the House's ideals and its people are generally powerless to fix it, and tend to become disillusioned and bitter.

[Opiece]

I've had a chat with Gnomey and Swiftoak yesterday, and in fact I pretty much agree with the current Indoril plan. I think it's rather solid, and that it just needs some reinforcing.

I'd be in favour of two things:
- having bigger Velothi settlements (Tier II) in Indoril lands, in order to reflect the population density of the region. I'll probably make a more detailed proposal in a new thread, where I could develop my ideas
- using the OM tileset as an inspiration for making a regular Indoril set, that could replace the Velothi buildings and shacks that currently are in the Indoril lands. I'm not a modeller though, so that's just an idea if any modeller wishes to work on that.

[Mairon]

Hi everybody,
1/ I think that Tamriel Rebuilt is more and more magnificent by the day. I love the attention you give to every aspect of the project. I've tested the Alpha on my brand new computer and it's glorious to be able to see a great part of Morrowind in the game (TR is quite adapted to the Morrowind Overhaul, except there are problems of course when the models of trees are very different from the originals, in some locations - but that's the overhaul's fault of course). Now that I've a new computer, it would be easier for me to contribute here sometime in the future.

2/ I think TR's Almalexia has the potential to be a jewel (I can see that your last version of it was already one, but I think that the idea of going beyond the precedent limitations and, amongst other things, abandoning the original Mournhold (eventually disappointing in comparison of TR standards and possibilities), is even grander.

Your Almalexia is going to be the greatest playable TES city ever (maybe only the Imperial City from Project Cyrodiil would be greater, in terms of size), which will alleviate the disappointment of Vivec, the Imperial City and Solitude in their respective games (I'm OK with the way the games in general represent proportionally their respective territories, but I find that Bethesda should understand that in what regards capitals, something must be done so that they don't look like a hamlet - or worse, a hamlet between Roma-sized walls. Ok, Vivec was a different problem : the city had the good size, but lacked, surely mainly for technical reasons in those days, the life of the concept arts that depicted it - Almas Thirr conversely is a good example of how to give more life to a canton model in Morrowind. I've seen that a project of Skywind or something like that is working on those modular models for Vivec that lacked in the original game, which is cool, but sadly, it's not for Morrowind of course).

It's a good idea in my humble opinion to keep this contrast between Almalexia and the other settlements of the area. Important Indoril settlements (in size) should not be located too near a capital of that importance (since it draws people to it), I think.

3/ Indeed it's a very good idea to have other Indoril sets. I've always found (as a modder for my personal pleasure) that the MH style was odd outside of a "true" rich and important city or part of a city (even though in the end I feel that the MH style exteriors lacked potential to build true city exteriors - TR's added models are great for that, even though I think that, were it possible, an even more modular set - like the one made by someone for the Hlaalu style, I think the name was "the Hlaalu House Project" ? - could bring even more possibilities). It would be more convincing to have a "medium" style for other settlements (except the castle-estates, if I'm not mistaken). And if you manage to find a solution to have this "medium" style or something else work for more popular or poorer neighborhoods of Almalexia, I think the experience would be complete. I admit I'm more interested in that than in more or greater other Indoril towns.

Sorry for the verbosity; it's because, well, I'm a TR fan.