Regional variety and removing ashlands from mainland

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:24 pm

The purpose of this thread is to invite new ideas and concepts for how to add quality and variety to the landscape. I will be adding photos and new ideas here. Most importantly this thread will include reasons for entirely replacing, not attempting to improve, the ashland mainland region in the far distant future.

Ideas here may be unlikely to sway most people but I believe posting new ideas on this subject is important. This thread will hopefully invite new ideas on regional planning at a conceptual level, not shut down ideas.

In 2008 TR was out of ideas for regional variety which is why it is more ashlands were added in an attempt to show a hostile, empty wasteland. This was a mistake since Ashlands do not add real variety because they are so much of vvardenfel. A new region types can be made. Elevation as well as different use of assets can add regional variety. Ashlands are not required to create an intimidating inhospitable landscape. I believe we can make areas alien and inhospitable without resorting to making redundant and misplaced region types.

____________________________________________________________

Remainder of this post has been separated from off topic discussion to further expand on these ideas without disruption.
-sasquatch

This area should be plains rather than woods I think. The large lake should also be removed and replaced by river like the image here:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/7058z95.png[/img]

Some trees in moderation could be nice but the SE area should begin to open up into plains. The north section should transition into badlands. All the Ashland area north of here needs to be redone in the distant future. Too many liberties have already been taken. This area should be a plains valley bordering badlands.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/s47MRbV.jpg[/img]

1 - should be heighlands/ high sierra
2 - should be plains area
3 - a transition border between mountain region and plains that shares some assets, maybe pine trees or similar rocks
something like this: http://i.imgur.com/vuEsCTg.png
4 - mountain

Here it is by difficulty:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/mB9bW1Z.jpg[/img]

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:20 pm

I have a work meeting to run to, so I don't have time to make an extensive post at the moment. I'll keep it brief and let other developers respond more completely.

I wouldn't advocate redoing the Armun Ashlands for any reason. The exterior work on them is solid, and they fill a needed thematic niche: representing Morrowind's famous ash plains on the mainland.

Likewise, The Othreleth Woods should remain a wooded area. We already have a thorough, well-crafted plan for the region and dedicated models to create a mushroom forest that avoids the stereotypes of typical mushroom forests in fantasy works.

Your map seems to extend the Deshaan Plains into Hlaalu lands. I don't see how this is advantageous. Deshaan should be exclusively controlled by the Dres, to highlight their cultural and economic ties to the region.

Please don't take my criticism the wrong way, Sasquatch. I don't mean to dismiss the amount of work you've put into this proposal. I only wish you had posted earlier in the thread, before Swiftoak, Gnomey and the rest ironed out their plans for the region.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:24 pm

As a side note, you probably shouldn't be using that Morrowind map in proposals. Look at how much has changed since it was made.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:32 pm

THere is no reason for those ashlands to be there. Much of the exterior work really hasnt been finished. I will be posting pictures and plans for redoing not only the ashlands but also all of the valley near Almalexia. These both badly need to be redone for multiple reasons in the future. However, that is a different topic only minorly related to this thread and something I will post more on later.

I do not believe my plans strongly conflict with Swiftoak's plans. I largely support them. The large lakes need to be removed some of the rivers should be adjusted and Sload's notes on difficulty need to be more strongly represented, not just here, but everywhere. Work has not yet begun on this region. This is planning stage and it is not yet completed. I have additional notes along with pictures and more travel-by-photo sections in progress for this plains valley area. There is no reason adjustments cannot be made at this stage especially terrian. I dont see one tree on the map. Trees can be added as part of a highlands border region, which as I said I will post more on later.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:37 am

sasquatch2o wrote:There is no reason for those ashlands to be there. Much of the exterior work really hasnt been finished. I will be posting pictures and plans for redoing not only the ashlands but also all of the valley near Almalexia. These both badly need to be redone for multiple reasons in the future. However, that is a different topic only minorly related to this thread and something I will post more on later.

Yes, this really should receive its own topic, but until someone makes one of those...

I will say I fully agree with you about the valley around Almalexia (I assume you're referring to the Alt Orethan -the region that sourrounds the capital city) needing a refurbishment rather badly. But why the ashlands? You say there's no reason for them to be there, but anyone could say that about practically anything on our map. Morrowind is famous for having a lot of ash, and we barely have any of it on the mainland. You -perhaps rightfully- claim that there's no reason for the Armun Ashlands to exist in its present location. I must counter, however, that there's no reason for them not to exist there too. At least not one that I can currently see.

Furthermore, our project had a perfectly rational reason for making the area ashlands back in day, even if it was on a whim:

Sload wrote:Mainland Morrowind is 3 times the size of Vvardenfell, using (currently) 2 less regions than Vvardenfell. It is incredibly repetitive. This area makes sense for an ashland because there's nothing there.

As to where the ash comes from.. fuck if I care.

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=256575#256575]Source[/url]

As for the Othreleth Woods, we've always intended to make the region into a forest (at least for as long as we've had an clear idea for what the area should look like). We have [url=http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/147/8/a/Mushroom_forest_by_Tamriel_Rebuilt.jpg]concept art[/url], models and even a few [url=http://31.media.tumblr.com/07bfe52404076007622908434605a522/tumblr_msb89nHrDR1seyqzco1_1280.jpg]work-in-progress exterior shots[/url] made by Nemon to prove the desirability of the concept. I'm not saying the decision is absolutely set in stone, but it will take a momentous amount of persuasion for us to abandon these long-held plans now.

Why do you want to remove Lake Andaram? I'm not ardently attached to it myself, but it's been on our development map for so long, I honestly can't envision a reason for removing it.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:08 pm

Ah, sloping the ash towards the forest, sort of like the similar transition we have around the ash swamp in map 5.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:55 pm

Yes, except it would transition from highlands and some pines to rolling plains. This area needs to be more open for some variety it should contrast with swamp. Those pieces would fit well in lower elevation close to or in the swamp. The models don't look like a mushroom forest it will make an unfitting area appear like a swamp. These do NOT belong up close to the mountains or in this area in general. The difference between my proposal is that my plan is far more thorough accurate and would add real variety.
Last, the valley around almalexia and ashlands should be changed after the rest of the exterior is finished because they are already playable and need a massive overhaul. This and the interior exterior in NE should be priority because we have an opportunity to do them right the first time around rather than make them worse on the third.

Opiece · Post by **Opiece** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:11 pm

While I don't advocate for a complete rework of the Armun Ashlands, I do agree with some of sasquatch's criticism. Instead of being scrapped, I think it needs to be reinforced by making the presence of ashlands coherent and logical.

What we know, right now, is that ashlands are linked to volcanic activity, as can be seen on Vvardenfell.
Therefore, seeing the current map, I'd be in favor of two changes:
- add a big volcano right in the center of the eastern part of the region, to make the presence of ashlands more logical,
- change the western part of the region, which would be farther away from the volcano, into an extended part of the Velothi mountains (though I'm not sure they should be covered in snow at that point).

The use of some small foyadas would help the Armun Ashlands blend in the Othreleth Woods. Rather than having the ashlands progressively cover the woods, I'd like the Othreleth mushrooms (and whatever trees you may end up using) to "colonise" and grow in the old foyadas. That would allow for a progressive transition between the two regions, and would also be a physical representation of the Hlaalu taking over even the harshest regions of Morrowind.

I think these adjustments would help attenuate the feeling of "hey we need to make some ashlands so let's place them in some completely random place", without having to rework the whole region nor the plans (which, IMHO, sound great).

roerich · Post by **roerich** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:21 pm

I like Opiece's plans here, though a proper volcano isn't needed - perhaps a minor one, a mix between a volcano and the Molag Amur lava pits. Some sort of lava filled crag or ravine, showing why this area is desolate. If we put a small volcano like feature here, we should add more - even if some would be defunct. The Red Mountain has a very specific reason of being there, but the volcanic underground under Morrowind could be further explored. Hmm.

That being said, the current Armun Ashlands are perfect already.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:27 pm

This has now become a discussion about ashlands instead of woodlands which is not the topic here. What Opiece is suggesting is exactly the type of dysfunction I am strongly opposed to. The Ashlands or Alma valley should not be touched at all until all exteriors have been finished, because they have been so poorly planned. The ashlands need to be entirely removed and a new highlands/badlands region type made with existing assets but with a landscape that is much higher in elevation overall but with more variation in height.

The southern areas and the NE should be completed first because the Ashlands and central area have been so poorly planned and implemented. Map 5 and these new areas should completed receive interiors and even be NPC'd first because the Ashland region needs to be completely recreated. The only reason for Ashland region to be there is because previous planners lacked the vision and creative muscle to design an interesting and logical landscape with existing assets.

On this region, there should be no Oreleth Woods except for further to the south east and definitely no Ashlands unless they are integrated into a new region type of mixed assets at a MUCH later date. No further discussion on misplaced ashland region should continue on this thread because it is such extremely low priority and off topic.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/h3mLcwr.jpg[/img]

Mwgek · Post by **Mwgek** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:41 pm

I don't get your picture. Why is there a red cross through the Ash Swamp region?

Also your plans of "Everything has been bad planning and should be redone" is a little bit of an overreaction in my opinion. I hope to play a finished TR version in the time given to me on this earth. (I'm just 26 years old, so I have high hopes

)

Osidian · Post by **Osidian** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:57 pm

Sasquatch, the basic concept for this region has been proposed and decided for years and it was a very popular concept among us. We have nice concept art, a well done written plan and even a "showcase" of what it will look like in game.

You arriving here and saying it's all wrong and that "what I say is how is should be done" attitude comes of as very rude. If it wasn't for the time you spent on your plans I'd say you were just trolling.

Also, that old Bethesda concept map isn't that relevant. Look at Vvardenfell... And while a big central plain through Indoril, Dres and Hlaalu lands will look pretty good on the map, it wouldn't really work ingame. And I don't think the Oreleth Woods borders the Argon Jungle the south, but the Shipal Shin region instead (mesas and cliffs, around Narsis).

Really, you should inform yourself, take what we have already planned and build upon it. This is a collaborative work, you don't get to come here and say we should redo it all your way.

For exemple, the lake and its forts is highly important for the character and concept of both House Hlaalu and House Redoran, do you really think we should just scrap it because of that old outdated map?

Of course there are things that may need to be retooled or improved, but those are mostly areas where there was really no plan when they were done.

About the Armun Ashlands, I also have some concerns about it, but that discussion doesn't belong here, nor do I think it should be a priority. I'm kind of against a volcano in there (Vvardenfall should be unique) and, if we keep it (we really need more ashlands) it can be explained simply as: Vvardenfall eruption + wind. If that's not enough then: magic wind and/or Tribunal's intervention. It's fantasy

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:35 pm

Mwgek wrote:I don't get your picture. Why is there a red cross through the Ash Swamp region?

Also your plans of "Everything has been bad planning and should be redone" is a little bit of an overreaction in my opinion. I hope to play a finished TR version in the time given to me on this earth. (I'm just 26 years old, so I have high hopes )

Those are the areas that could have been done by now with good planning and better prioritization. My opinion is that that an absolute minimum should be redone and that some of the areas rebuilt the most need to be overhauled the worst. Improving a failed plan is a bad option because it will still be bad at its core.

On that map nothing in red should be touched. X'd areas are complete areas exteriors should be interiored and then both of those areas NPC'd before anything else because they need the least work.

Maps and concepts can be reworked. How can the decision to toss out many dozens of completed interiors and remake many exteriors almost without question be made, yet these plans be considered inalterable? The swamp concept looks good but should be used close or in the swamp not in the highlands area this should be. We dont have open areas or plains anywhere close to here it would be add great variety. This thread should be open to new ideas. Mine have mostly not yet been posted.

I believe the old map should be considered. The placement of Almalexia makes much more sense on their map and regional planning is superior. Adding highlands, rolling plains, more heavily agricultural and locations that feature more dramatic changes in elevation areas would help. There are already mushrooms forests and swamps and ashlands, enough that these dont need to be misplaced in a heavy handed and clumsy attempt to add regional differences that do not belong.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:52 pm

Our concept for the Deshaan region (which will cover the majority of House Dres lands) calls for making it into one huge plain/agricultural area. It's the bread basket of Morrowind, and should more than cover our need for open areas.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:53 pm

I don't want this discussion to go over the top, but I will say that this is a terrible place to be proposing a start to another load of redoing. It is also a bad place to complain about 'terrible plannning'.

Before this topic was brought up, the thread was moving perfectly. So if you must talk about redoing our Othreleth and Armun Ashlands regions, please do it somewhere else.

I will say here that I don't want any plains to be put in Othreleth's place. That would be scrapping a brilliant design and putting something generic in its place.

Sorry if I sound rude, I'm just worried at what this discussion may come to.

Opiece · Post by **Opiece** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:24 pm

I'm sorry for being off topic, but I can't start any new thread in the Master Planning forum, so I'll leave that up to one of you.

Also, I think it's good to have this debate right now. We're still at the planning stage, so I don't see any reason to postpone this discussion seeing we'll just forget about it. If we have to agree on something, let's do it now before we run out of inspiration.

I don't see how the Armun Ashlands concept is bad at its core, or how having high plains instead would be better. They're here for the same reason: diversity. And for that matter, I believe keeping the Armun Ashlands would be more coherent, as they underline the somehow forgotten desolate aspect of Morrowind's lands, which would not be shown with a rather fertile region.
However, the Alt Orethan can be considered bad at its core, since there's no reason for its presence in-game. It's generic and uninteresting, and I see it as filler content.

Still, I do agree the current implementation of the Armun Ashlands is a bit clumsy. But making it more coherent and giving it a reason to exist should be enough, no need to postpone indefinitely a complete rework.

Osidian, I don't really like your explanation for the region's existence. Wind could have carried ashes anywhere on the map, and there's really no reason for all of it to go in that exact spot. Moreover, I don't think it would need an extremely high amount of time, since we'd just need to add a little volcanic activity (just like roerich suggested) in the eastern part and convert the western part into mountains, which it pretty much already is. Sure, it's fantasy, but that doesn't mean landscape should be made without any sort of realistic logic.

However, I think it'd be good to add some small foyadas, to make the region blend in the landscape and attenuate its awkward rectangular shape.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:32 pm

In regards to how the Armun Ashlands came to be, I honestly think Sload had the right idea back in 2008. Not everything in a fantasy game world needs a logical explanation, though I do understand your concerns, Opiece.

horus · Post by **horus** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:26 pm

Do you have a proposal as to what should replace this region?

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:45 pm

FYI - I've deleted your duplicate post in this thread.

As for the content of your post, the Armun Ashlands are a variety unto themselves, and our Armun Ashlands are, in fact, finished (claiming otherwise is simply incorrect), and, on top of that, much higher quality than any Ashlands region(s) in Vvardenfell. As for appearing so many times, this is really the only Ashlands region we have on the Mainland, so I think everyone would disagree with you on the "repetitive/so many times" argument.

sasquatch2o wrote:Please do not troll or post why we should use the same ideas without contributing something new of worth.

Frankly, your tone has been a little misguided in this [the Othreleth Planning] thread. It's nothing short of offensive to imply that the recent discussions here have not been of worth, or that developers have been trolling, and it's not exactly constructive to suggest a complete scrapping of the geographic layout of the province that we have already spent hundreds of hours planning out and implementing.

Certain things--take Lake Andaram, for instance--simply don't get to be put on the chopping block simply because you don't like them. I'm not sure what you have against things like Ashlands and lakes, but they offer not only visual breaks, but also very important thematic opportunities for our mod.

This thread is for planning the Othreleth region, so, in the future, please stick to the topic at hand instead of creating huge, off-topic posts that suggest we re-do half of our exterior lands. It's good that you ultimately created a separate thread for your concerns; in the future, please do that from the beginning, rather than after you've thrown a thread like this one into various states of disarray.

While we're on the subject of re-doing things, you might not be aware, but TR has a pretty colorful history (not always in a good way) of redoing its own work. At this point, however, we've had a pretty solid and fleshed-out plan behind the regions we've made, and we have very specific and important goals, and re-doing large swathes of the mainland is not currently among them. If you have concerns about our regions that can only be satisfied by re-doing them, please either wait until we are ready to re-visit regions (after we've completed the regions that we have yet to even start; currently much of Telvannis and Antediluvian Secrets regions are waiting in line), or, if you feel so inclined, make a 3rd party mod on your own that alters the regions to your satisfaction; we welcome any attempt of the community at large to further customize our mod to their liking.

I have separated out the non-Othreleth-related posts, and merged them into this new thread, so that on-topic discussion can continue in the Othreleth thread without confusion.

Opiece · Post by **Opiece** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Well sorry, but I'm very much against the limited scope of this thread. So far, you've been the only one advocating for a complete removal of the Armun Ashlands, so that should definitely not be set in stone.
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive or disrespectful of your opinion, because I'm in favour of free debate. If so, I apologise. I think this thread is a very good idea, seeing it'll probably help with planning and designing coherent regions. But we probably shouldn't prevent anyone from stating their opinion.

I'll repeat the proposal I made on the other topic (so if you've already read it, you can just skip that part). I suggest:
- adding volcanic activity in the eastern part of the Armun Ashlands, in order to give a logical reason for the region's existence,
- converting the western part into a mountainous region, probably in "the Velothi moutains" style (though I believe there shouldn't be any snow at that point, since it's so far south and close to a volcanic region),
- adding a few foyadas at the borders of the Armun Ashlands, in order to make the region blend in more with the general landscape,
- making the "Othreleth Woods" mushrooms (or trees, whatever you may end up using) "colonise" and grow on the southern foyadas of the Armun Ashlands, in order to have a smoother transition between the two regions.

Edit: Well, my post is pretty useless now that the threads have been merged :p

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:30 pm

This thread isn't for those advocating completely replacing the ashlands. It is primarily intended as a place to post new ideas for improving regional variety.

Currently I have many ideas and some photos I've collected. In the future I may post a more coherent plan. One thing that is really needed for regional variety is much greater contrast in elevation. Where ashlands are I propose a "highlands" or "high sierra" region. The entire area should be elevated further and be a more unique arid high elevation region.

The following links are mostly for reference and later use:

High sierra:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2264/2126 ... 075347.jpg
http://runnerbeans.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/yosemite-mountains.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4106/496 ... 5996_o.jpg

Highlands:
http://i.imgur.com/vuEsCTg.png
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4048/5138 ... 5f40_z.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1207/5134 ... 6c87_z.jpg
http://www.forkingitup.com/jamie/here/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Pisac-Sacred-Valley-Cusco-Cuzco-Peru-Pisac-Ollantetambo-Urubamba-4.jpg
http://www.praisephotography.com/uploaded_images/categories/Leslie_Gulch_canyons,%20Leslie_Gulch,%20Eastern_Oregon.jpg

Highlands River:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Marsyangdi_valley_near_Pisang_%284518299825%29.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/08/21/travel/21EXPLORER1_SPAN/21EXPLORER1-articleLarge.jpg
http://www.lesstravelednorthwest.com/oregon_southeast/upper_owyhee_canyons/data1/images/north_fork_owyhee.jpg
http://www.liskgallery.com/data/photos/890_1090225_004.jpg

Plains:
http://www.thedailytea.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/kenya-105815_1280.jpg
http://hitchhikershandbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Tigris-river-and-the-plains-surrounding-Diyarbak%C4%B1r-Turkey.jpg
http://orsierraclub.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dscf0752.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6191/6090 ... f56a_z.jpg

Plains Hill:
http://i.imgur.com/RlXG1Pi.jpg

Plains Valley:
https://onda.org/events/images-for-even ... 6fbfc.jpeg

Agriculture:
https://lh4.ggpht.com/B9S-Hsy7OwXlFL_kd ... l79Eg=s649
http://travellerguide.asia/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Cameron-Highlands.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Cameron_Highlands.jpg
http://travel.sndimg.com/static_files/imagesource/imageoutput12/editors-picks-cash-sweeps_001_596x334.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QeuFCRv.jpg?1
http://www.worldofstock.com/stock-photos/olive-trees-growing-on-a-hillside-farm/TEI2589
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tim_proff ... 434882759/
http://i.imgur.com/zH4bOGR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Tm3YcXB.jpg
http://topwalls.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Cameron-Highlands-Malaysia.jpg

Transition Zones: (regional mixing)
Example 1
-part a http://i.imgur.com/LnuteDW.jpg
-part b http://i.imgur.com/zWuGAP0.jpg
-part c http://i.imgur.com/yzPkxjy.jpg

Example 2
http://i.imgur.com/ksS8ocx.jpg

Mountain and Highlands:
http://www.elmorecountypress.com/Owyhee%20News_files/image022.jpg

Plain & Highlands:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2579777404_e93d7b7d82_m.jpg
http://jaysjourneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/7155115881_9049d79a16_z.jpg

Agriculture & Highlands:
http://alanmajchrowicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/succor_creek_gulch_oregon_47896.jpg

Ashland Assets in Transition Zones
http://www.hewlett.org/uploads/images/North%20Fork%20Owyhee%20River.jpg
http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7341/8925805332_1ea0ee1082_m.jpg
http://www.aaroncowanphotos.com/The-Owyhees/i-NdrGsQR/0/S/Juniper-Between-Canyons-S.jpg

Webpages:
agriculture
http://permaculturenews.org/2011/09/03/a-small-productive-fruit-farm-in-cambodia/
http://urbancampesina.com/tag/swale/

Opiece · Post by **Opiece** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:06 pm

sasquatch2o wrote:High sierra:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2264/2126 ... 075347.jpg
http://runnerbeans.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/yosemite-mountains.jpg

These photos give off a northern vibe for me - where were they taken?

And whether they're used for replacing the Armun Ashlands, I think they should also be the main inspiration for the future rework of the Telvanni lands.

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:31 pm

Opiece wrote:These photos give off a northern vibe for me - where were they taken?

The second one, at least, was taken in Yosemite National Park, in California. The first one looks like it could be from the same place. I will mention that we already have an entire mountain range region in this style; the border range between Cyrodil and Morrowind.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:44 pm

You are not adding anything of value to this discussion.
In the interest of adding more variety I think we should also slightly modify the difficulty map proposed by sload here:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24291

Regions don't scale high enough for a world as large as TR. Tribunal was meant for characters around level 20 and bloodmoon for 15, more or less depending on what character build. Red regions of highest difficulty should be geared toward the most skilled characters (30+). Within each region there should also be local difficulty variation based on elevation, accessibility and ruin type much like old RPGs. I it wouldn't be too cliche for players to assume the further they get from civilization or the deeper or higher they explore the greater the difficulty they should encounter. Much of this is already in sload's document For example, a secluded and extremely deep and infamous daedric ruin in a red difficulty region should be far more perilous in its furthest reaches than a relatively more accessible more level daedric ruin, even within the same region type and general difficulty zone.

Rough suggestion for altered difficulty regions:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/uBKFomJ.jpg[/img]

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:37 pm

Haplo was sharing his opinion on a few pictures that you posted. Therefore he was adding something of value to this discussion.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any of your examples working. Just north of the Armun Ashlands is the Roth Roryn, which is already highlands. Plains would seem much too boring here, and we already have plenty of mountains.

And as many have already explained, the Armun Ashlands fit in well enough on the mainland. Without them, Morrowind would be far too lush to fit its description. (which to some is a barren, hostile wasteland)

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:50 pm

My point is that there are many options for wasteland beside ashlands. The purpose of this thread was to create a place for new ideas where they wont be instantly shutdown or buried. Highlands and plains could be made really great to explore and unique. By mixing assets some really interesting new regions could be created.

On plains, these do not need to be boring. I having seen many ideas on how to make agricultural areas or plains interesting yet. However that is what much of this area should be. We can make this be really cool to explore with some new ideas and creativity, but that will take time and open minds. We have not yet even entertained the idea of how the deshaan plains could be made. So far nearly everything is heavily cluttered forest, or rocky, level field.

like this:
http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/media/Communications/wavelength.gif

Although there is variation in elevation it is not enough to create striking contrast between regions. Most of our areas are similarly cluttered with similar changes in elevation and only the color of the terrain and plant type changing. (overall our landscape is flat and lacking contrast)

Last, this thread is intended as a place to add new ideas not a forum for debate. I will continue to add more ideas here and insert them into other threads when relevant.

Infragris · Post by **Infragris** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:24 pm

I'm sorry if I'm jumping in rather late on this Ashlands discussion, but I really don't see what the problem is with Mainland Ashlands, or the need for any volcanic activity to justify them. In real-life volcano news, the ash from an Icelandic eruption a couple of years ago was enough to shut down air traffic for the whole of western Europe. Ash is carried by the wind, and the small barrier of the Inner Sea should not affect it in any way.

The ash from Red Mountain would be blown by high air currents from the sea towards the west, where it is blocked by the Velothi mountains and comes to rest. As a matter of fact, lore explicitly states that Morrowind's weird flora and fauna are the result of Morrowind's unique climate, from which the rest of Tamriel is shielded by the mountains. Texts on Morrowind never fail to note its extensive Ashlands, even in cases where the author likely never visited the remote and backwards Vvardenfell district.

TR's Ashlands are of an excellent quality, and it would be criminal to throw them out without good reason. Sasquatch, perhaps it would be better to focus your attention on the old northeastern portions of the map, which are slated for renovation: your concepts could add much to those regions.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:08 pm

An explanation like that doesn't work at all because the ash wouldnt travel over the green and tan regions dump on a location that large. There is no logical reason for the ash to be there other than volcanic activity. Anyone can say they don't want them removed but any explanation other than local volcanic activity for their existence is hard to take seriously. Just saying something won't make it true.

Northeast is one of the best areas, once it is redone I'm afraid of how much Ashland ash swamp ash coast will be added. Ash does not add variety because it is played-out. A new region type could easily be placed here even if the means simply making a new ground texture and altering the ground height in areas. Also claiming the area is top quality is pretty rediculous, there are large areas that are obviously incomplete or poorly made. The point here is that the entire area should remain ashlands for now and be untouched because it needs to be completely redone into a new region type for better variety and quality. The othreleth area near present ashlands and mountain border should not be mushroom forest for much of the same reason. Variety! If you look through all the pictures I've posted hopefully they will get you thinking. They offer the possibility of really impressive unique landscapes, whether mixed or using only the regional assets we already have available.

Theminimanx · Post by **Theminimanx** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:29 pm

The main problem with Ashlands on the Mainland isn't how realistic it is, but how hard it may be for the player to accept it's presence. On Vvardenfell, this is easy, because your first trip to the Ashlands is likely to be during an ash storm in Ald'Ruhn, where Red Mountain is in sight. "There's some sort of storm coming from Red Mountain, and the land is covered in ash. Okay, so Red Mountain is a volcano that spews out ash, which the wind carries to the ashlands. Got it."

Unfortunately, the wind explanation for Armun creates the question of why the rest of the Mainland isn't also covered in ash. Now, there are plenty of other explanations for why there might be ash, but it's important to clearly communicate this to the player soon after they arrive there.

All that said, it will be far easier to create some magic-based explanation than redoing the entire area, so I'm in favor of keeping the ashlands.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:57 pm

I suggest dropping the ashlands discussion for now. Focus on Sasquatch's new purpose for the thread instead.

To comment on your difficulty map, Sasquatch, much of it looks pretty reasonable, though without a doubt, the area around Red Mountain should be the most hostile region in the entire province, counting both our lands and Bethesda's. Not only does the mainquest's endgame takes place on its blighted slope, but the entire region screams "hell on earth" in a way even the rest of Morrowind can't match. It's the domain of a mad God, blanketed in red blight storms and swarming with deformed monsters. Not even the Telvanni can match that level of hostility.

About the Othreleth Woods, it isn't only meant to be one large forest. Swiftoak posted this message to me (and I hope he is okay with me reposting it here for clarity) about the region's planned variety:

Swiftoak wrote:As for Othreleth itself, it's not actually going to be entirely a wooded area. There are actually alot of open farms and fields in the area close to the river, with small wooded clusters about. The forest part of the region is found in areas further away from the river. I don't think this was communiated well in the plan, so I think someone should clarify on that, whoever's good at making posts. This area is the size of Southern Vvardenfell, so it's crucial to introduce variation between open areas and woods.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:33 pm

sasquatch2o wrote:Last, this thread is intended as a place to add new ideas not a forum for debate. I will continue to add more ideas here and insert them into other threads when relevant.

The process of posting new ideas and incorporating them into a project also requires discussion (known as debate). At TR we weigh all aspects of ideas; you shouldn't get in the habit of expecting no discussion on ideas you post. Contrarily, the more different, extreme, or alien your ideas, the more discussion (again, read: debate) you should expect.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:16 pm

A few points I want to mention:

While I don't want to forge too deeply into the topic of the Armun Ashlands, as others seem to want to move away from the topic, the issue of how ash got there is a non-issue, as Infrargis pointed out. The question, in my opinion, is not how the ash got there, but why it never left.

There is a very simply explanation for that: the Armun Ashlands are currently surrounded by higher elevation to all sides, with no river flowing through the region. As such, there was nowhere for the ash to go. In other regions the ash was either carried away by the wind or by rain, but in the Armun Ashlands it was mostly trapped.
Also, any vegetation that may have existed in the ashlands before -- the region may well have been a desert even before the eruption of Red Mountain -- may not have been able to survive through the ashfall and died out, whereas in other places the flora weathered the ashfall and was able to reclaim the land.

That is not to say that the Armun Ashlands have to or could only be ashlands to the exlusion of all other possibilities. Only that I do not think having ashlands there is especially ill-considered, as the general impression appears to be.

Also, I want to address an apparent misconception: the Othreleth Woods were never planned to contain swamplands, as far as I'm aware. Swiftoak described the region as a floodplain, but floodplains generally only become wet (or rather flooded) periodically, and no flood would occur in the course of the game. (Unless we end up getting carried away with working with OpenMW later on or something).
In short, the Othreleth Woods were always plains, as in sasquatch's proposal, just maybe with more woods than intended. The Othreleth assets were not designed for swamps, but for dry land, such as plains. Nothing is stopping them from being used in higher elevations, either.

As far as the difficulty map is concerned, I agree with Yeti that Red Mountain should remain the most difficult region. Also, I don't necessarily think we need to level up exterior regions to match higher player levels. Keep in mind that, at those higher levels, the player is typically quite capable of killing gods. I strongly question the logic of having essentially god-level creatures in the far reaches of Morrowind, however intimidating they may be.
One way to mitigate that issue would be to use quantity instead of quality -- for example having packs of wolves in the Velothi Mountains -- but that only lessens rather than eliminates the problem, in my opinion.
Instead, I think any higher-level challenges should be provided -- probably through quests -- by places that one would reasonably expect to be difficult. The player might, for instance, travel to a Telvanni wizard's realm in the Telvanni questline and, as the wizard would control the realm, one would reasonably expect a player to be challenged, godslayer or not.

Finally, [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24460]current concepts[/url] for Alt Orethan do call for plains with few rocks, and there are already [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22852]plenty of ideas[/url] for how the Deshaan plains could be made. Some of them are unfortunately not visible due to having been written before the current system was implemented, when most planning was done behind closed doors. I and others have wanted to ammend that, but have been rather preoccupied as of late.
Of the planned (to varying extents) regions, we have plains, forests, a mushroom forest, canyons, mountains, ashy wetland and ashland. Heightmap variation in Map 4 and especially Map 5 is pretty good, and those are the only areas in which the heightmap has been pre-planned, to my knowledge. Lack of heightmap variety is a large part of why we want to eventually revisit and, to varying degrees, alter almost all of the lands east of the Thirr River Region.

As far as the issue of debate in general is concerned, I don't think a debate-free brainstorming thread is necessarily a bad idea, as long as everyone involved can agree that the thread only serves to create one or several proposals. For a proposal to actually get accepted, though, it will naturally need to be discussed -- preferably at length -- later on, and it is quite possible that it would be torn apart then. I frankly think that debate from the start is better for fostering good, solid proposals that will get accepted.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:52 pm

I agree that debate would be best. The problem here is that productive debate is often not possible because most ideas are shot down before they even have a chance to germinate, sidelined into something unrelated or ignored and buried under irrelevant posts. Creating a thread only new ideas are posted and 4-5 posts don't need to be made to defend new ideas from old ones would be useful for that reason even if some productive exchange is lost. Perhaps a new forum could be made called "An idea a day" or "New idea a day." Could be a forum solely for posting new ideas. It could be a photo, a website link, quest idea, thoughts on improving TR or the forums, etc. What would make it unique is that it would be solely for new ideas. Not responses, not debate and no regurgitation. It would provide a forum for fresh ideas that could be used or debated elsewhere without the hassle of immediately defending more conceptual posts. Something like this specifically for quests would be very good as well. If just 3 or 4 people committed to posting one new quest idea each week planning would radically improve.

While attacking previous posts would be off-limits, an alternative could allow for other users to post new ideas based on previous ones or post a new idea on how to improve ideas in previous posts. Such a format would encourage productive creativity and collaboration.

A couple further comments on regional variety since the release of new mainland and TR_Alpha. There are so many awesome agricultural valleys and plains areas in NE areas. Redoing these with current work processes I'm sure would destroy these areas that are really unique to the mod.

Before anything else is redone and after all exteriors and interiors have been completed:
1. Armun Ashlands should be renamed "Armun Wastelands" to leave open the possibility of creating a more unique region there.
2. Armun Wastelands should be modified into "highlands" - an arid region raised overall in height but with extreme variation. SLot canyons, gorges, impressive valleys, open areas of rolling hills will massive rock jutting up from the surface featured here.
3. Remake valley around Almalexia to make far more open agricultural and unique. Would require more agriculture models and new static types for ground cover.
4. Open more areas in Thirr River valley to reflect the land is civilized and being actively worked. Some of the smaller waterways should also be removed so the valley looks less like a swamp and more like a floodplain or civilized agricultural valley.
5. Add more variety to NW areas by adding "high sierra oases." Implementing more unique areas of interest in the valleys of this region would be like "exterior caves." The majority would feature some interactivity. Might be cluttered with trees or walk into through rocky outcroppings on slope. The areas would feature variety found by walking "into" such oases of variety. (see exterior "cave").
<edit>
6. Revert to original Androthren docks and canals.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:24 pm

sasquatch2o wrote:A couple further comments on regional variety since the release of new mainland and TR_Alpha. There are so many awesome agricultural valleys and plains areas in NE areas. Redoing these with current work processes I'm sure would destroy these areas that are really unique to the mod.

Before anything else is redone and after all exteriors and interiors have been completed:
1. Armun Ashlands should be renamed "Armun Wastelands" to leave open the possibility of creating a more unique region there.
2. Armun Wastelands should be modified into "highlands" - an arid region raised overall in height but with extreme variation. SLot canyons, gorges, impressive valleys, open areas of rolling hills will massive rock jutting up from the surface featured here.
3. Remake valley around Almalexia to make far more open agricultural and unique. Would require more agriculture models and new static types for ground cover.
4. Open more areas in Thirr River valley to reflect the land is civilized and being actively worked. Some of the smaller waterways should also be removed so the valley looks less like a swamp and more like a floodplain or civilized agricultural valley.
5. Add more variety to NW areas by adding "high sierra oases." Implementing more unique areas of interest in the valleys of this region would be like "exterior caves." The majority would feature some interactivity. Might be cluttered with trees or walk into through rocky outcroppings on slope. The areas would feature variety found by walking "into" such oases of variety. (see exterior "cave").

Are these the kind of "new ideas" you don't want people to respond to, or proposals you want to be actively discussed?

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:25 pm

I would be fine with a new idea/brainstorming sub-forum or something similar as you suggest, but I do not think we need to assign anybody to post new ideas there regularly. First of all, I think that there are plenty of members who would happily put forward ideas on their own initiative; often one of the first things new members do after creating their account is put forward a new idea, and I'm also sure that a lot of TR developers have plenty of ideas they'd want to post. I doubt it would have any problems with activity.

And even if it does, I think there's no harm if there are some weeks or even months without activity there. If there's really a constant flow of new ideas once or twice a week until this project is finished, we would end up with hundreds of threads, and the individual ideas might get lost in the mass. I think it would be better to just leave posting ideas to whoever gets ideas.

Infragris · Post by **Infragris** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:26 pm

Thank you, Gnomey - that was exactly what I wanted to say in defense of my proposal, before its discussion was abandoned. The issue of "green and tan" regions in between is irrelevant, as these were most likely protected by the high mountain ranges at the eastern edge of the Bitter Coast, or simply by Vivec's will in the immediate environment of the Ascadian Isles. High air currents from the ocean carry the ash to the southwest, where it meets the Velothi mountains and descends on the plains. Climate exists and does its thing. If this needs to be explained to the player, we can mention it in dialogue - if they are willing to accept the alien landscape of Morrowind in general, I don't think something like this should prove too much of an effort.

Ashlands have been the defining landscape of Morrowind since Arena. As Vvardenfell was inaccessible for Outlanders for most of known history, it stands to reason Ashlands existed in the general Mainland for visitors to see.

Sasquatch, you fundamentally misunderstand how these discussions and decision-making things work. Whenever I post a text as P:C or elsewhere, I am always disappointed when people do not respond to it, because to me this means it was not interesting enough to be discussed and elaborated upon. An idea that is not discussed is an idea that will be overlooked, because it is not present in the minds of your fellow modders.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:33 pm

Yeti wrote:A couple further Are these the kind of "new ideas" you don't want people to respond to, or proposals you want to be actively discussed?

My thinking is that people should just add new ideas of their own or add how an idea can be better. If someone doesn't agree they should ignore or just post a better idea, at least for this thread. This way people wont have to expend productive energy responding and every post will be a new idea.

Opiece · Post by **Opiece** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:11 pm

sasquatch2o wrote:
Yeti wrote:A couple further Are these the kind of "new ideas" you don't want people to respond to, or proposals you want to be actively discussed?
My thinking is that people should just add new ideas of their own or add how an idea can be better. If someone doesn't agree they should ignore or just post a better idea, at least for this thread. This way people wont have to expend productive energy responding and every post will be a new idea.

But then, new ideas are worthless if we don't debate them, and then decide whether to include them or not. In the end, no matter how great your idea is, the majority and TR's chiefs are the ones to decide.
Sure, you can develop your new replacement for the Armun Ashlands as long as you want. However, all that is eventually worthless if we don't decide to drop the Armun Ashlands in the first place, which we haven't done yet (seeing that the majority is currently fine with the region).

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:37 am

Gnomey wrote:The question, in my opinion, is not how the ash got there, but why it never left

i recall a lore discussion where someone (Adanorcil? Sload?) proposed that the Armun Ashlands are kept 'ashlands' by a sentient 'ashstorm' not necesserily related to Dagoth-Ur or the Blight.

Vocal Lurker · Post by **Vocal Lurker** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:09 pm

This has now become a discussion about brainstorming instead of impractical suggestions which is not the topic here. What Sasquatch is suggesting is exactly the type of dysfunction I am strongly opposed to. The finished landmasses or really any exterior areas already made should not be touched at all until all exteriors have been finished, because they have been worked on so hard and for a very, very long time. The proposals to overhaul vast tranches of complete work need to be entirely removed and a new "Map 6" region type made with existing assets but with a landscape that is much higher in elevation overall but with more variation in height.