Ruin Distribution in Morrowind

[RyanS]

The Problem
For many years, TR has been taking an uncareful path with how to plan and place ruins and dungeons throughout the gameworld. Although this approach has not proved bad in many areas of our expansion, it has affected other areas in ways that should be fixed. The problem I am displaying should not necessarily be fixed soon, for we already have lots of important work on our hands. However, it is something that we should address as a complication that must eventually be solved. The following list shows the conflicts that have arisen from the path TR has taken:

-A decrease of certain dungeons around the mainland. This can relate to many things, such as a decrease of velothi towers in the Telvanni lands. However, my main concern here is dunmer strongholds. There is a very small amount of these on the mainland, and those that happen to be there are usually very small. Is there anything in lore that states the strongholds are most common on Vvardenfell, or should there be more of these on the mainland? I am not all that sure what to exactly agree on myself, I just wanted to raise the point.

-A decline of dungeons in certain areas of mainland Morrowind. For example: Northwestern Morrowind, possibly meant to be the most hostile place in our project, might have the least amount of dungeons to explore.(Meaning other than caves) This conflict is probably the most important of the three.

-Could there possibly be a small decline of dungeons overall? Please don't think I am completely ridiculus here, as I am not yet saying this is something to be taken seriously. However, the conflict can make sense. Vvardenfell's dungeons, including dwemer ruins, daedric ruins, strongolds, and velothi towers, total up to around 50. The mainland's dungeons (with the extra nordic, imperial, and OM ruins)totals up at around 70 to 80, and our landmass is already 3 times the size of Vvardenfell. Here is an updated, accurate map displaying the dungeon locations around Morrowind:

http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/RyanSTR/media/Tamriel%20Rebuilt/DungeonMapUpdate_zps48bb250e.png.html?sort=3&o=0

As said above, I do not expect any CS action to take place soon at all. But this matter should be discussed ahead of time. Thank you, please share your thoughts.

[Haplo]

I think first we should discern why the current numbers of ruins are in fact "out of proportion" or "too many" or "too few". Is it just your opinion or is there some metric used to achieve this conclusion? It is unclear from your post.

[RyanS]

Post edited. About a week ago, a number of people agreed with the problem on IRC, so I decided to post the situation here.

[Gnomey]

First of all, I do not think we should take any measures until we actually begin working on the involved sections. We do not know in detail what we want to do with Redoran lands yet, so I think now would be too early to act. I do think it is a good idea to already discuss the matter, though.

- There are far too many dwarven ruins in map 5

In and of itself, I see no problem here. That Dwemer inhabited the Velothi mountains is well established; I think we can probably have an unusually high density of ruins there.

- There are far too few daedric ruins in map 5

This I can almost certainly agree with.

- Many other ruin locations I find quite odd

Do you mean odd on the map, or in-game? The fact that the two Daedric ruins there are are so close together and close to the border seems strange, for example. But I haven't looked into whether any ruins are oddly placed in-game, and am willing to take your word for it.

- There are locations (especially in the extreme north) that could use a few extra dungeons.

This is probably true, but to judge that I think we would need a comprehensive list of exterior and interior ruins. (As in ruins with exterior buildings and ruins that only have an exterior entrance). There is a higher density of Nordic barrows in the North, for example, which may restrict the room available for other ruins.

- It would be awesome to put one or two daedric ruins on the coast.

Just as a preliminary concept, I think it would make sense to have 'a few' Daedric ruins along the Inner Sea. These would have loomed over the probably densely populated lower Thirr before the creation of the Inner Sea. In general, I think Daedric ruins should probably mostly be located near places where you would have expected Dunmer to live, so maybe still not in the far North.
That would only be as a very rough guideline, though.

- Would it be cool to have a daedric ruin in the Ash Swamp?

I am for this, especially if a good place is found for it.

- By the end, the ruin distribution in map 5 should be fairly equal and reasonable.

I disagree with the equal part. There is nothing interesting about having Morrowind's ruin types be distributed evenly across the province, in my opinion. I think a certain amount of imbalance in ruin distribution is a very good thing.

- We must organize and plan ruin and dungeon locations in the future

In the future, I request that we form a solid plan that shows quantity, or even locations, of ruins for certain regions. As for current maps, it is already too late to do so. Therefore, the above has been proposed.

Yes please. As far as locations go, I think the most specific we should generally get would be to add what ruins ought or ought not to be in a claim in the claim description. (ie. "Please include a Dwemer ruin in your claim. This claim should not contain a Dunmer stronghold.") Or maybe include the necessary ruins in the exterior heightmap.

And just to clarify my first paragraph, I do think we could edit the claim descriptions of Uld Vraech exteriors currently in unclaimed to reflect whatever is discussed here. I also think that we could ask exterior modders with Uld Vraech claims to make changes according to any decisions we reach here. I do not think we should touch finished claims or claims in reviewing, except if the latter need to be sent back anyway.

[Yeti]

The number of Dwemer ruins in the Velothi Mountains isn't a problem. Dwemer settlements were supposedly concentrated there:

The Dwemer (Dwarves), free-thinking, reclusive Elven clans devoted to the secrets of science, engineering, and alchemy, established underground cities and communities in the mountain range (later the Velothi Mountains) separating modern Skyrim and Morrowind.

According to your map, however, our modders have placed many of the Dwemer ruins away from the mountains. By itself, this is a little problematic.

I agree with Gnomey about not distributing ruins evenly across the province. We should tweak their frequency of appearance across the mainland to give regions localized flavor. For instance, players shouldn't find as many Dwemer ruins in southern Morrowind. Their numbers should dwindle the farther you get from the Dwemers' historic population centers in the Velothi Mountains and Vvardenfell.

[RyanS]

Thank you for the reply, Gnomey.

-I do agree that no CS action should take place soon, at least with the current Indoril and Almalexia situations.

-As for the dwarven ruins, at a second thought, I suppose it would be ok to leave them alone. My first view of it was that they were taking up the space of other dungeons. But I was wrong at that matter.

-As for daedric ruins, I think that about everyone can agree that there should be more of them at least by, or in the Inner Sea, as you have suggested.

-I will put into detail the 'odd ruin location' situation. First of all, just as you stated, the two only daedric ruins in map 5 are incredibly close to one another. This was my main concern when I made that bullet. There are also a few other odd situations. For one, I am slightly confused at the fact that there are Velothi towers in the mountains. What would they be doing up there? Also, the presence of Dunmer strongholds way up in the mountains confuses me as well. I am not saying these two dungeon types should go, I just don't understand their reasonings.

-I misworded the equality part. I really meant that everything should be reasonably added to map 5. (such as adding a few more ruins here and there).

-The dungeon planning was exactly what I had in mind. I think it would be a great idea to add what should exactly be in a claim. (of course, only to a certain extent)

-I would like to point out that one of the daedric ruins on my map isn't even quite official. It's claim is in 'unclaimed' right now.

Edit: I agree on your post as well, Yeti. There could be more dwarven influence in the Velothi mountains.

[RyanS]

I can almost completely agree with what has already been said in this thread. However, another concern has risen from this subject. In order for our future high level or low level regions to actually be high or low level, they must contain dungeons of different difficulty. This is my current view so far of just map 5. I may expand upon this soon-

Ash Swamp: Mid High level. Should contain difficult ruins/dungeons, but so far only holds a single dwemer ruin. This one I see as a big problem.

What to do: add at least a few more high level dungeons, including daedric.

Velothi Mountains: High level. Contains a few dwemer ruins and possibly two daedric ruins(we will have to see where 5-12 goes in the future, with its daedric ruin) I view a problem in this; there should be a few more dwemer, or even daedric ruins here.

What to do: include a few more dwarven ruins, at least

Old Vraech: High level: Contains some nordic barrows and caves, but as far as I can see, no dwarven, daedric, or just about anything else. (There may be a possible dwarven ruin in its very southern parts, but it is currently unclaimed) I see a slight problem in this, with there being just about only nordic tombs and caves.

What to do: If anything, not much. Perhaps add a few higher level dungeons.

Cormaris: Mid Low level. Contains about one dwarven ruin (spectacular by the way), and other various dungeons, including a small quantity of nordic barrows. I view this region to actually be quite well-handled. Can't really think of anything wrong.

What to do: I can't think of anything; nothing.

Upper Askkaedh Coast: Mid level. Only a slight portion of this is in map 5, so I can't really find anything wrong with it. All is good here.

What to do: Probably nothing, however, Gnomey thought that perhaps some daedric influence could be found off the coast in the inner sea?

Please share your thoughts.

[blackbird]

What about map 6?
Few dwemer and more daedric ruins?

[RyanS]

Yes, that is the idea for map 6. I am currently working on a large map comparing the ruins on Vvardenfell and the mainland. After that, we will decide a correct layout of dungeons across our whole landmass. (Not really exact locations, just quantity and general locations.) The whole plan will be displayed soon.

[RyanS]

Top post updated and completely changed. It is now focusing on all of Morrowind.

[Aeven]

While the map does offer a good perspective, it leaves out certain dungeon types, such as Old Mournhold-styled ruins. Adding those to the total (and map) may paint a different picture.

[RyanS]

Thanks for the advice, Aeven. I'll do what I can to get the map updated soon.

[RyanS]

Updated with a better map. Know that I have only identified a few of the nordic tombs.

[RyanS]

Bump. Could someone please share their thoughts?

[Bero]

I think that lore wise its fine but to see full picture of dungeon distribution gameplay wise we need to include caves to that map imho. Although we are doing fine work that could use just a bit tweaking. But planing can only help.

[Yeti]

The Velothi Mountains could use more Dwemer ruins, perhaps in that stretch of the region that looks pretty empty.

[Seneca37]

[RyanS]

Thanks for the replies! [url=http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/RyanSTR/media/Tamriel%20Rebuilt/DwemerampChimer_zpse4527ce2.png.html?sort=3&o=0]Here[/url] is a map showing the Dwemer and Chimer strongholds in Northwestern Morrowind. It seems that we placed a fairly good amount of these dungeons in the lower elevations, but not quite enough in the true mountains.

Yellow= Dwemer, and Orange= Chimer.

[Bero]

I agree. We should reward players for climbing those mountains. But we also probably should contact SHOTN about their ruins and stuff in Skyrim/Morrowind borders. I'm not sure how far their progress is.

[RyanS]

I'll check around on their forums to see what's up. The last thing I heard, however, was that they were focusing work on the western border of Skyrim, and that the eastern border would come last.

Edit: just read on their forums that they probably won't include any dwemer ruins at all, at least not in the west.