Taxes and Property

Tes96 · Post by **Tes96** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:57 pm

I posted a topic on [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1507421-taxes-property-of-morrowind-government/]BethSoft Forums[/url] about property and taxes, like how one buys property and from whom, depending on where you live, and how often are taxes paid (daily? weekly? monthly? yearly?) and who collects them and what happens if you don't pay, etc...

This information is only vaguely covered in several quests in vanilla game but it is ambiguous on how exactly taxes are delegated and handled and how land is dealt with for people wanting to buy or rent or lease.

I have ideas for quests concerning taxes and people being late on rent. But along with that, I think it would be great to learn a few things from the NPCs about how taxes are done in Morrowind and how property is handled, like who owns it, can the Empire intervene and take control of it legally, how much land do you own when you build a house in the wilderness, whom do you pay, etc...

It would help make the world that much more believable to incorporate these everyday mundane elements.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:09 am

Everyday mundane elements aren't exactly the most compelling material to highlight in a video game. Tax and rent systems should be kept just as vague and ambiguous as Bethesda made them. Figuring that stuff out is too much trouble.

Tes96 · Post by **Tes96** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:45 pm

Yeti wrote:Everyday mundane elements aren't exactly the most compelling material to highlight in a video game. Tax and rent systems should be kept just as vague and ambiguous as Bethesda made them. Figuring that stuff out is too much trouble.

True, they aren't the most compelling, and that's what I love about it. Not every task needs to be about finding the Sword of Eternal Flames from a deep dark crypt. Most people do like that stuff, which is fine. But I, and probably a few others, also love quests that are normal tasks like helping an NPC clean out the trough or deliver my laundry, or ask the tax collector why my taxes are so high. The little things like that help make the world much more believable to me. So I'd still like to discuss with other people who are interested on how taxes are property is done in Morrowind.

It's perfectly fine if you're not interested in it but I still want to discuss it freely here.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:40 pm

I think it should be discussed. A fruitful discussion could result in new tax collection or rental offices. and several new texts. One describing tax system for each society in Morrowind in general as well as tax code and property regulations specific to the region or culture.

From this actual ledgers that meet standards for the area could be created either in a single instance to be placed on desk or in volumes that could be stored in relevant areas.

If someone is interested in this and the resulting discussion and content is up to snuff it would be a nice addition. More than ideas we need more people willing to learn and capable of fresh ideas to implement stuff, specifically in the areas requiring basic scripting like quests, NPCs and adding unique elements to dungeons.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:22 pm

I don't see a problem with working out how tax collection works in Morrowind, if people feel like it, but I do think it's important not to make too big of a deal of it. As with all planning, it is quite possible that most of what is discussed here won't actually appear in-game, or will only be implied.

First of all, one thing seems rather clear from looking at [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Death_of_a_Taxman]the[/url] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Rent_and_Taxes]three[/url] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Taxes_from_Gnisis]quests[/url] mentioning taxes in Morrowind: settlements and regions aligned with a faction pay taxes to that faction and, one assumes, no other faction. So how do the various factions handle taxes? A jumping off point:

Dres: no idea. Dres is a collection of minor Houses, so I would assume all minor Houses have their own territories in which they collect their own taxes, if they collect taxes at all.
Hlaalu: it seems like this is a rather standard affair of a taxman being sent out, probably just a House member, and gathering taxes.
Imperial: same here. Notably, Imperial taxmen appear to be members of the Census and Excise faction.
Indoril: in the case of House Indoril, I think that the local hetman would gather the taxes for the whole village and would give them over to a low-ranked House member (likely a Tollmer) who would pass it on to the local lord.
Redoran: that is basically the system used in Gnisis, and as such I think House Redoran should more or less use the same system.
Telvanni: I do not think the Telvanni should collect taxes at all. If a Magister feels like shaking down the local Velothi population, he'd probably send a retainer to do that. I doubt that most Telvanni would be so fiscally inclined, though.
Temple: This one is probably the murkiest. The Temple may collect tithes, but I find it more likely that people in Velothi settlements are not taxed at all, though they may be strongly encouraged to regularly donate to the Temple, and it could be socially frowned upon not to do so, at least within ones means.

I think House Indoril could do with a bit of elaboration: I assume that the Tollmer would decide how much a village and even individuals need to pay through a mixture of cold economics and Indoril legal spiritualism, though as far as the individuals are concerned it would be up to the hetman to gather the funds, regardless of where or whom he pulls them from.
As such, especially in Almalexia, some Dunmer would not have to pay taxes at all, and in extreme cases would instead be provided for by the Indoril. In short, House Indoril would have a sort of welfare system. I don't really think any of the other factions should have that, aside from the Temple; though in the case of House Redoran the taxes would probably be really minimal, at least going by how poor the House is and the sum the player needs to get from Gnisis.

Though for House Indoril, the Temple and House Telvanni, and maybe House Dres and to some extent House Redoran, it is equally possible that no taxes would be collected because there are no taxes to collect. Common Dunmer living in the territories of those Houses might still rely on the barter system, with no personal income and as such no personal funds. Any taxes that would be collected would likely not be in the form of money; so Indoril villages are more likely to pay in local goods and produce.

Telvayn · Post by **Telvayn** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:56 pm

Gnisis isn't a straightforward case though - we get sent there to collect taxes for the Redoran, but the Empire has its own [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ragash_gra-Shuzgub]tax collector[/url] there (imprisoned by Baladas for the arrogance of demanding him to pay taxes; note she is in the Legion, not the C&E Office).

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:41 pm

True, I completely forgot about that. Then again, Gnisis is also a legion garrison, so it could just be an exception.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:28 am

I doubt anyone the Empire has touched on the entire continent uses barter except for nomads like the Ashlanders, and even then, they likely have learned the value in using money to trade with outsiders since the days of the Elvish empire.

This is not to say everyone should use the same "money" because different cultures use different things as money. A culture's money would have originally developed naturally from the most often traded and desirable good in a market (such as gold, fishhooks, beaver pelts, etc.)

Now, because of this, a culture like the Dres may pay taxes as tribute in the form of bundles/bags of dried or preserved saltrice or in slaves. And they would probably use only saltrice when doing commerce among themselves but using Imperial gold when trading with outsiders like the PC.

One way to show this for the Dres would be to make a model for little bags of saltrice in different sizes, leave a few manifests showing amounts of saltrice income. Make dialogue from Dres merchants to the PC that occasionally tell the player what a burden it is to go to a money changer for you outlander scum. Give some NPCs the job of a saltrice/gold exchanger (just in dialogue, but it gives the illusion).

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:20 am

The issue with currency in the case of those Houses is how the common Dunmer would get access to currency.
Take a Velothi village: the Velothi are given land in which to live and support themselves, but in return must supply a (large) cut of their produce to the local lord. They are not paid in wages, and do not really trade much, even with neighbouring villages. It's even unclear whether they actually own anything themselves or whether everything is owned either by the lord or the village as a whole. So it's not really clear where any currency would come from, or what purpose that currency would serve.
As the villagers would mostly be provided for by the lord, and as the lord is the one they would pay taxes to, there is no real room for taxation.

Outlander merchants would offer gold when trading, but they still wouldn't provide a village with a steady enough flow of currency to make taxing that village worthwhile.

All of which only applies to the lower class, though. When you get to merchants and maybe craftsmen, they would probably possess currency and be able to pay taxes.

Edit: again, though, one could argue that the produce of such a village is its 'currency', and is what it pays in taxes.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:52 am

The jist of what I was saying was, yes, the most preservable produce (saltrice, since it's probably akin to real-world rice) would become the money. "Currency" is not appropriate in this context because currency is minted or printed monies or fiat currencies specifically made for use as an "official (or legal) money".

Taxes have also historically been influenced by religious views. The Dres view the Tribunal Temple through different lenses than the other Great Houses. Their unique ideas should be taken into account here.

Soul-Blighter · Post by **Soul-Blighter** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:59 am

It seems more or less practical to assume that every one of the Houses pays homage to Mournhold in some form or another.

I'd assume it to be a feudal system. The lowest of the retainers who own land will collect taxes from the citizens who actually OWN houses or businesses, and then the retainers pay homage to their lords or masters (For example: the Telvanni Masters would give their earnings to the Vvardenfell Council or Parliament of Bugs' Magistrate) and they in turn would turn a percentage of that to Mournhold).

And as we all know, Mournhold is loyal to the Empire. So the Emperors gold would most likely come back around to him eventually. I personally like Greendogo's idea that if not in currency they would pay with a percentage of their greatest valued export.

In any case (excluding the tribal communities) if they were to NOT pay homage, eventually this would draw King Helseth's attention, and he would then request aid higher up the ladder. Resulting in thousands of imperial legionnaires coming to depose the unruly leader. So it would seem logical most would rather pay a small fee than deal with the trouble of straight out rebellion.

Tes96 · Post by **Tes96** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:54 pm

Gnomey wrote:I don't see a problem with working out how tax collection works in Morrowind, if people feel like it, but I do think it's important not to make too big of a deal of it. As with all planning, it is quite possible that most of what is discussed here won't actually appear in-game, or will only be implied.

First of all, one thing seems rather clear from looking at [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Death_of_a_Taxman]the[/url] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Rent_and_Taxes]three[/url] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Taxes_from_Gnisis]quests[/url] mentioning taxes in Morrowind: settlements and regions aligned with a faction pay taxes to that faction and, one assumes, no other faction. So how do the various factions handle taxes? A jumping off point:

Dres: no idea. Dres is a collection of minor Houses, so I would assume all minor Houses have their own territories in which they collect their own taxes, if they collect taxes at all.
Hlaalu: it seems like this is a rather standard affair of a taxman being sent out, probably just a House member, and gathering taxes.
Imperial: same here. Notably, Imperial taxmen appear to be members of the Census and Excise faction.
Indoril: in the case of House Indoril, I think that the local hetman would gather the taxes for the whole village and would give them over to a low-ranked House member (likely a Tollmer) who would pass it on to the local lord.
Redoran: that is basically the system used in Gnisis, and as such I think House Redoran should more or less use the same system.
Telvanni: I do not think the Telvanni should collect taxes at all. If a Magister feels like shaking down the local Velothi population, he'd probably send a retainer to do that. I doubt that most Telvanni would be so fiscally inclined, though.
Temple: This one is probably the murkiest. The Temple may collect tithes, but I find it more likely that people in Velothi settlements are not taxed at all, though they may be strongly encouraged to regularly donate to the Temple, and it could be socially frowned upon not to do so, at least within ones means.

I think House Indoril could do with a bit of elaboration: I assume that the Tollmer would decide how much a village and even individuals need to pay through a mixture of cold economics and Indoril legal spiritualism, though as far as the individuals are concerned it would be up to the hetman to gather the funds, regardless of where or whom he pulls them from.
As such, especially in Almalexia, some Dunmer would not have to pay taxes at all, and in extreme cases would instead be provided for by the Indoril. In short, House Indoril would have a sort of welfare system. I don't really think any of the other factions should have that, aside from the Temple; though in the case of House Redoran the taxes would probably be really minimal, at least going by how poor the House is and the sum the player needs to get from Gnisis.

Though for House Indoril, the Temple and House Telvanni, and maybe House Dres and to some extent House Redoran, it is equally possible that no taxes would be collected because there are no taxes to collect. Common Dunmer living in the territories of those Houses might still rely on the barter system, with no personal income and as such no personal funds. Any taxes that would be collected would likely not be in the form of money; so Indoril villages are more likely to pay in local goods and produce.

Once the Houses have collected their taxes, where then does it go? To King Helseth? To the Temple? And from those places, does the money/goods go to the Emperor?

I'm skeptical about your inclination on Telvanni not paying taxes. People who are at the top tier are always looking for ways to get more out of the people at the bottom, especially when you're as crazy as the Telvanni. Although maybe they don't accept gold and instead prefer slaves or someone's unmarried daughter.

The method in House Redoran seems pretty straightforward according to the quest in Ald'Ruhn. The leader of the house collects money from its citizens. It's never said how often but I would assume monthly. A year would be a long time to go without receiving money from someone.

Regarding your last paragraph, septims are being traded back and forth all the time at shops and taverns, despite the territory. Although that could very well just be a game mechanic and that more bartering is done than gold coin exchange, i.e. trading a fur or some grain for a pair of shoes, etc...

And where does the Imperial Proconsul who resides in Narsis fit in? He is the one who represents the Emperor so does tax money from the Imperial settlements go through him before going to the Imperial City?