Notes for creature design

[Dormichigan64]

If we are going to add plant/fungus creatures, than something like, even though this is kind of from Last of Us, a creature being controlled by a plant or a fungus could be cool.

Also, I don't think that if we make a Parasect-like creature, anyone would notice. It would be cool to see a mushroom version of a mudcrab.

[Miraclestone]

I agree, no one will make the connection between Morrowind mushroom crabs and Parascet; check out Rot's great sketch above for proof. Creatures being controlled by fungi sounds more like a quest plot than a new type of creature to me, not a bad one to be clear.

[Tondollari]

How about a small netch-like creature that feeds on small creatures, but the digestion process is very slow? In-game it would be a floating blue bulbous sack with appendages wrapped tightly around (and/or inserted in the orifices of) a dead rat. Once the corpse is dessicated they would immediately hunt new prey, so there would be no need for models without food in tow.

In TR lore this could also explain why immigrants don't have any small pets.

[arvisrend]

Just a few comments from someone as far removed from creature modelling as one can possibly be, to be taken with the appropriate grain of salt:

- Not all creatures are to be random encounters. While it may seem that our most pressing concern is everyday beasts like guars and kagouti simply because they are the most frequent critters the player will meet, do not let this restrict your creativity. Creatures tailored to specific landscapes and/or places have their place just as well -- if you have an idea for something that lives in icy underground rivers in the Uld Vraech, by all means, please share it. Yes, fish are good too; while we do have some already, their quality is contested, and replacements are welcome. (Am I the only one who enjoyed catching fish in TES5?)

- Balancing and difficulty is not a critter's main purpose; this is not a hack-and-slash. Peaceful creatures are just as welcome. Morrowind's combat is repetitive and dull; I suspect that most players will not want the same density of hostile fauna in the Mainland as on vanilla Vvardenfell plainly because they are bored by the permanent defensive hackery already.

- I remember us discussing Armun-Ashlands versions of existing creatures, which should be more badass, aggressive and fire-ish. Shalks were being discussed and IIRC Aeven even made some textures.

- What about adding some more members to the Kwama family? I recall some lore of Kwama undergoing transformations from forager to warrior when the tribe is under attack; can we have an intermediate stage of this transformation, particularly for those mines where the kwama are continuously defending themselves?

- I would not back a definitive no-mammals policy. Some kind of outlandish ice/snow hares would be very nice for the Uld Vraech. Again from discussions a few years ago, I recall the idea that Morrowind should become the more "normal" the closer you come to the Cyrodiil and Skyrim borders. Maybe long ago, this was meant as a retcon for TES4 and TES5 and Bloodmoon, but I like the idea nevertheless.

[Ironed Maidens]

- Balancing and difficulty is not a critter's main purpose; this is not a hack-and-slash. Peaceful creatures are just as welcome. Morrowind's combat is repetitive and dull; I suspect that most players will not want the same density of hostile fauna in the Mainland as on vanilla Vvardenfell plainly because they are bored by the permanent defensive hackery already.

Well, yes and no. I think it is important to remember that, while Vvardenfell is more isolated and a bit more abstract than the mainland, MW as a whole is STILL a very weird and alien place, as PGE states that the distinction between MW borders and Cyrol/Skyrim is nearly instant the moment you enter MW, so some level of hostility is basically a given at that point. and having new/unique creatures to fight isn't entirely a bad thing, regardless of the combat system in MW (which can be pretty ok if you're playing on a higher difficulty, it's challenging to stay alive in the earlier levels and the openness of MW's gameplay lets you use your creativity to the fullest).

Though like i said, passive fauna that may well give a goof fight to even higher leveled characters if provoked is a good idea. it adds an element of newness/surprise to an as-of-now stale-ish fighting environment.

[Gnomey]

To me, the question of whether we want mammals or not is a very simple one: I see (familiar/recognizable) mammals as representing outlanders, or more broadly foreign influence. In Vvardenfell, that influence is present, but very limited, which is why you see rats but nothing more. In some places in the mainland, there won't even be rats.
Solstheim is on the other end of the spectrum. It is wholly lacking in Dunmer influence, so you don't see any of Morrowind's endemic fauna, while the island is full of mammals.
Do we want Uld Vraech to be properly incorporated into Morrowind, mostly free of outlander influence except for the odd Nordic holdout? In that case, I'd avoid placing mammals there, except maybe horkers on the coast. Or do we want Uld Vraech to be as alien to the Dunmer as the rest of Morrowind is to everyone else? Because in that case, I'd try and stick to mammals, or at any rate furry critters. I'm assuming we're aiming for the former, though.

I think we should approach fauna in a similar way as we approach architecture, in short.

[arvisrend]

Gnomey, you sound like there is a dichotomy here. The idea is that the Uld Vraech is (grudgingly) shared by Dunmer and Nords. This can very well be reflected in its wildlife.

Mixing fauna does not result in a cacophony like mixing architecture does.

[sasquatch2o]

Gnomey said: "To me, the question of whether we want mammals or not is a very simple one: I see (familiar/recognizable) mammals as representing outlanders, or more broadly foreign influence. In Vvardenfell, that influence is present, but very limited, which is why you see rats but nothing more. In some places in the mainland, there won't even be rats.
Solstheim is on the other end of the spectrum. It is wholly lacking in Dunmer influence, so you don't see any of Morrowind's endemic fauna, while the island is full of mammals."

This is kinda what I'm saying. We should use rabbits, wolves, bear because this is a more "normal" zone. Look at the ice island Bethesda put mammals on that. Same with Skyrim and Cyrodiil. Inventing a bunch of new creatures with no place in lore to replace mammals is a really foolish mistake. Especially since some are readily available or already in-game. Making small revisions to the models like scaling them up or retexturing to make beefier variety would be very easily done and should be done. Flying crustaceans or some other random invention does not in the areas that closely resemble Bloodmoon and are close to bordering provinces. Add deer, wolves, foxes, rabbit!, bear. Few other creatures needed up there.

http://imgur.com/MNQxlQN

Whatever the reason an ashswamp has filled 1/3 of the region should probly be woods,. the remaining area is relatively small which makes creating more unfitting unique creatures for the area even more impractical. For the ashswamp on the other hand should have a couple of it's own with wolves being a common creature roaming through all of the area, wooded, ash and snow. I imagine ashswamp creatures being camouflaged predators that pick off those foolish enough to walk through the area or come too close to the water with croc-like instincts. Typical prey would be boars, rabbits, the occasional traveler or anything dumb enough to come within striking distance. I could imagine wolves chasing prey to water's edge and stopping short of where these creatures typically reside. Also need a smaller, more common predator. I dont think prey creatures are needed in Ash Swamp.

[Gnomey]

Gnomey, you sound like there is a dichotomy here. The idea is that the Uld Vraech is (grudgingly) shared by Dunmer and Nords. This can very well be reflected in its wildlife.

Mixing fauna does not result in a cacophony like mixing architecture does.

I pretty much agree with this post in principal. Fauna allows for finer distinctions than just black and white 'Dunmer'/'non-Dunmer'. The question of how many familiar creatures and how many unfamiliar creatures to use thus becomes more of a question of how prominent Nordic (and more broadly outlander) presence should be.

Among the reasons I'm not enthusiastic about the amount of mammals sasquatch seems to be suggesting is that I do not think Uld Vraech should be a normal zone, and think that outlander/Nordic influence should be minimal and hidden at the start of the game.

Here I might as well interject to address the more practical concerns of this discussion: I see no problem in using placeholder animals, whether Bloodmoon or, perhaps, vanilla Morrowind, for the time being. I do not think we necessarily need to get this right from the get-go, and if there's nobody capable/willing to make any new creatures we might desire I see no problem in leaving the placeholders in until that changes.
So as far as I am concerned, this should not be seen as a practical discussion; I'd rather see people advocate what they'd like for aesthetic and thematic reasons than due to practical concerns. (Which is mostly already the case, so I'm mostly just flapping my mouth here). New creatures should never hold up work on a region, and I don't see them doing so here.

And here I might as well put in a reminder that all current discussion on Ash Swamp and Uld Vraech fauna is very much preliminary, as the respective sections are quite a ways away from opening, and both regions lack planning documents. Feel free to think big; there's no real need for us to reach a consensus at the moment in my opinion.


It is because Uld Vraech was more planned out than TR's earlier regions, though, that I think we should minimize the use of Bloodmoon animals. Uld Vraech was planned as a '[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23032]Morrowind take on winter[/url]', not as a patch of Skyrim in Morrowind. I think the distinction is important: the plants are supposed to be Morrowind plants that have adapted to the harsh climate, the animals should be Morrowind animals that have adapted to the harsh climate, and the majority of the inhabitants should be Redoran who have adapted to the harsh climate.

How many mammals that leaves room for is an open question; as I stated earlier I would be in favour of Horkers, and I would consider isolated wolf packs and maybe the odd boar; but that also depends largely on what creatures we end up planning for the region. (What 'niche's we end up filling).
I think the most visible creatures should be endemic, just like the antler fir and cone spruce.

As for the Ash Swamp, I've already stated this before plenty of times, but that won't stop me from inserting it here: I think that the Ash Swamp should be a relatively peaceful region, (speaking only of the exterior), and should capitalize more on a desolate atmosphere than throwing hostile critters at the player.

Edit: as for concerns about having unique creatures for such a small region, I think the creatures could possibly also be placed in higher-altitude locations in the Velothi Mountains, and perhaps in ice caves throughout northwestern Morrowind. The rest depends on the individual designs; some may not look out of place in lower altitudes and latitudes.

[Ironed Maidens]

For the ash swamps, there should be very few hostile animals, but the ones that are there should range from fairly strong to strong. but i agree with you Gnomey, i don't like the idea of wolf packs running amok around UV. Maybe ash wolves would be ok in the ash swamps, but for this snowy mountainous region i think it would suit us best to work on atypical creatures. like i said, maybe a rabbit with long claws or why not ice wraiths? those were really cool creatures in Skyrim...

[Biboran]

Chickens would look good in the imperial cities.

Not far from Skyrim can be snow foxes and rabbits.

In the swamps I like the idea of alligators. For example, the crocodile with six legs.

At sea, you may add more neutral fish. Salmon and trout in the north, tropical fish in the south. Predators: Hammerhead shark and Electric Slaughterfish (looks like daggerfall slaughterfish, resist electric, when attacking, let around jolt of electricity.)

In the north, off the coast can fly northern coastal birds. Herring gull, for example.

Why not add large scorpions? Not like in Fallout, but the size of a rat.

[Yeti]

In the swamps I like the idea of alligators. For example, the crocodile with six legs.

They'd have to look a lot different from regular alligators to stand out as unique Morrowind-esque creature. Simply adding an extra pair of legs wouldn't distinguish them enough.

At sea, you may add more neutral fish. Salmon and trout in the north, tropical fish in the south. Predators: Hammerhead shark and Electric Slaughterfish (looks like daggerfall slaughterfish, resist electric, when attacking, let around jolt of electricity.)

Some equivalent of generic real world fish would be fine as long as they weren't too colorful, but Hammerhead sharks wouldn't look right sharing waters with weird predators like slaughterfish and dreugh. The "electric slaughterifsh" concept reminds me too much of electric-themed [url=http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/1/17172/1319029-chuchu.jpg]ChuChus[/url] from The Legend of Zelda. I personally found those rather annoying.

In the north, off the coast can fly northern coastal birds. Herring gull, for example.

Normal birds would never survive long in Morrowind with all the cliff racers around.

Why not add large scorpions? Not like in Fallout, but the size of a rat.

Because simply making giant versions of real-world creatures wouldn't add much to the game world.

3. Insects. Oversized insects are probably the first thing people think of when it comes to Morrowind fauna. The Shalk, the Scrib, the Silt Strider. A key thing to note is that none of these are simply ‘giant’ versions of ordinary insects- they are all unique creatures in their own right. TR has added the Muskfly amongst others.

[Biboran]

They'd have to look a lot different from regular alligators to stand out as unique Morrowind-esque creature. Simply adding an extra pair of legs wouldn't distinguish them enough.

You can make their skin and head like slaughterfish's. The overland fish with six legs will be quite unusual.

The "electric slaughterifsh" concept reminds me too much of electric-themed ChuChus from The Legend of Zelda

I thought the concept of electric fish from Daggerfall. I thought it would be appropriate in the TES Universe.

Normal birds would never survive long in Morrowind with all the cliff racers around.

They live not around morruvindu. I do not think that they fly in Blacklight

Because simply making giant versions of real-world creatures wouldn't add much to the game world.

Well then, let it be a snake-scorpions, without legs.

[Gnomey]

I've already mentioned this in a similar context, but long and low creatures like alligators or snakes generally don't work well in Morrowind. Their bodies can't conform to the terrain, always remaining parallel to sea level, so when they're on slopes one end of them generally bleeds into the ground while the other floats above the ground.