Yes that's a conscious design choice. As an outlander the player is not jailed by the Indoril but 'deported'. (Though there is a special instance in the Akamora Fighters' Guild where the player can be locked up temporarily for angering the local nobles)rot wrote:AFAIK it's intentional that the PC only gets sent to imperial fort jails. (Akamora being House Indoril)swit wrote:1. Akamora: missing PrisonMarker despite existence of jails and evidence chest
Wouldn't stop you from adding one in your mod if that's what you want, though.
Law and Order: Special Prisons Topic
Moderator: Lead Developers
I'm not sure if that will stand in the long-run, by the way; as neither Dres, Indoril nor (depending on what changes we make to it) Telvannis are likely to have much in the way of Imperial prison locations, (even Firewatch and Old Ebonheart are at the edge of those territories), that system may prove too inconvenient for the player. It's yet another matter requiring discussion down the line. (If people feel like discussing this now I can split these posts off into a new thread).
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Topic split from [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=326142#326142]this thread[/url].
I'll have to think more on this, actually. I think the Indoril could go either way on extraditing outlander criminals.
I'd actually consider the following (not sure whether it would be hard to do without checking in the CS, at first brush I don't see why it should pose a challenge): upon being apprehended by an Indoril guard, the player would have a dialogue option in which he can assert his right as an outlander to be tried in an outlander court. Depending on factors such as speechcraft and the player's bounty, the guard might acquiesce or ignore the plea. If the guard acquiesces, the normal procedure is followed. If not, the player would be sent to an Indoril prison, which would somehow be different from Imperial prisons.
[spoiler]Possibly if the player is sent to an Indoril prison he would need to 'wait for Imperial legal council' to come and get him out, perhaps by reaching some sort of settlement with the Indoril.
Building on that, one settlement might be that the player is let go with a bounty barely below 1000 and a fine, but will get in trouble if caught again in Indoril lands before he clears his bounty with Imperial officials (ie. removes his bounty through the traditional methods).[/spoiler]
The Indoril might generally by fine with extradition just because they want the outlander gone, (especially as the prisons would probably be located in the castle-estates), but if the player really presents a risk to the population/gets on the wrong side of too many people I don't see the Indoril letting him off that easily.
The player could also have that dialogue option for Dres and Telvanni guards, but they would just laugh it off. For those Houses, slave pits do seem likely. With the added inconvenience of not reducing the player's bounty at all upon capture.
The final question would be how Velothi villages in Telvannis would handle things; whether they'd have guards at all, or whether they would be forced to fend for themselves. I'm currently leaning towards the latter, basically making Telvannis outside of Telvanni/Imperial settlements a wild west (or rather east), but I suppose it's too early to really tell.
Edit: and Rats, you could always read that line as being caked in sarcasm.
I'll have to think more on this, actually. I think the Indoril could go either way on extraditing outlander criminals.
I'd actually consider the following (not sure whether it would be hard to do without checking in the CS, at first brush I don't see why it should pose a challenge): upon being apprehended by an Indoril guard, the player would have a dialogue option in which he can assert his right as an outlander to be tried in an outlander court. Depending on factors such as speechcraft and the player's bounty, the guard might acquiesce or ignore the plea. If the guard acquiesces, the normal procedure is followed. If not, the player would be sent to an Indoril prison, which would somehow be different from Imperial prisons.
[spoiler]Possibly if the player is sent to an Indoril prison he would need to 'wait for Imperial legal council' to come and get him out, perhaps by reaching some sort of settlement with the Indoril.
Building on that, one settlement might be that the player is let go with a bounty barely below 1000 and a fine, but will get in trouble if caught again in Indoril lands before he clears his bounty with Imperial officials (ie. removes his bounty through the traditional methods).[/spoiler]
The Indoril might generally by fine with extradition just because they want the outlander gone, (especially as the prisons would probably be located in the castle-estates), but if the player really presents a risk to the population/gets on the wrong side of too many people I don't see the Indoril letting him off that easily.
The player could also have that dialogue option for Dres and Telvanni guards, but they would just laugh it off. For those Houses, slave pits do seem likely. With the added inconvenience of not reducing the player's bounty at all upon capture.
The final question would be how Velothi villages in Telvannis would handle things; whether they'd have guards at all, or whether they would be forced to fend for themselves. I'm currently leaning towards the latter, basically making Telvannis outside of Telvanni/Imperial settlements a wild west (or rather east), but I suppose it's too early to really tell.
Edit: and Rats, you could always read that line as being caked in sarcasm.
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Slave pits seem highly unlikely. If they were going to just do labor and be let off, putting them in a slave pit would just waste resources/money. Like I said, each each map has a centralized prison like a small Imperial outpost that would make more sense. Dres should actually only attack the player or make them pay the fine off, no chance of jailing. Cause I feel like the Dres are dicks like that.
I didn't imagine slave pits to be labour and let off affairs. More like labour until you have a chance to escape affairs. (Maybe something similar to how the game Mount & Blade handles the player being taken prisoner, but there are many other potential ways of going about it). They're not a matter of serving your time, they're a matter of you, an outlander, causing a mess in a place where slaves are always in demand.
As for having central Imperial prisons, my problems with that are twofold: the three eastern Houses are not the sort to appreciate Imperial presence, let alone an outpost in the middle of their territory. House Indoril is an exception, though, in the way that it already has Mournhold. The second issue is that, to me, none of those Houses seem like they would dutifully extradite outlanders who cause a mess in their land.
As for having central Imperial prisons, my problems with that are twofold: the three eastern Houses are not the sort to appreciate Imperial presence, let alone an outpost in the middle of their territory. House Indoril is an exception, though, in the way that it already has Mournhold. The second issue is that, to me, none of those Houses seem like they would dutifully extradite outlanders who cause a mess in their land.
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As much as it would be nice to have jailing practices match the character of the Great Houses, it sounds like a lot of work to implement, and I think gameplay consistency is more important. We can have the guard dialogue differ for flavor, but otherwise this seems like a clear-cut case of "gameplay trumps simulation" to me.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
This is certainly a matter in which cost and benefit needs to be weighed. Either way, at least as a placeholder, only putting prison markers at Imperial locations seems like the way to go.
I would still consider expanding on that at a later date, though. I think different consequences for being caught with a bounty would be one good way of differentiating different regions. An outlander getting into trouble with Dres and Telvanni authorities should be a very different matter from one getting into trouble with Hlaalu and Imperial authorities, and if we can achieve that without too much trouble I think it would be worth the time and effort.
I would still consider expanding on that at a later date, though. I think different consequences for being caught with a bounty would be one good way of differentiating different regions. An outlander getting into trouble with Dres and Telvanni authorities should be a very different matter from one getting into trouble with Hlaalu and Imperial authorities, and if we can achieve that without too much trouble I think it would be worth the time and effort.
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I had been thinking about this myself before the topic was separated into its own discussion. It'd be nice if punishment reflected the political and judicial rules of each house and region. If the is a great quarry player might work off fines in the pit. If is agricultural area maybe they are jailed nearby and must work the fields until their debt to society is paid. On a more basic level common crimes or crimes committed is outside local jurisdiction great house or local authority should be imperial by default, as they are. Crimes against committed within a city or against a lord or a great house should be punishable locally. Stealing from local merchants or from private homes in city, killing area livestock or sleeping within city limits should be considered a local crimes. Under a certain level fines should remain local (city or castle jail). Murder would be an offense punishable across regions. Authorities in other areas might not recognize or have authority to enforce laws broken in other regions or against other cultures some might. For example perhaps Dres only enforces crimes against their own society and refuses to recognize the imperial authority or fines. All crimes including murder would be punishable by Dres only. Others with closer imperial ties night share jurisdiction. Now maybe players with a great enough unresolved criminal past would be tracked down by agents with the power and authority of imperial or great house into foreign lands, but these could be bounty hunters or others operating without the support of local authorities (Mora tong etc).
my opinion.
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I believe dres should have labor camps for criminals. Doesn't make sense they would ship off dres criminals to imperial jails. The empire is huge and maybe inefficient. But dres society is mechanized by human labor. I don't see why they would house and feed criminals at a loss when they could be put to work at no little to no cost. Working prisoners have value. Even today prisons receive contracts for cheap labor, its big business. Labor camps would be tasked with digging irrigation ditches, working fields, constructing roads, clearing forest.
Seeing how dres are so dependent on labor I don't see why this would only be limited to common criminals. Debtors might also meet the same fate. They might have to work in a labor camp or as a servant at a rate set by law until debt I paid. Wages earned would go to the creditor until the determined amount was paid. In courts one night settle for an amount less than what is fully owed. Payment would obviously be determined by skill set of the debtor. Unskilled persons would be forced to serve in labor camps while the educated or craftsmen might work in their trade. For example, textile, pottery, alchemy specialties would be able to escape a harsher fate by being sent to places where their skills have added value. A noble might live under the care of their creditors directly on retainer as an advisor or diplomat.
Dres prisoners should be used in a manner that will maximize their value. Sitting in a cell does not do that. In a world without computers and fossil fuel'd machines every person has value, even unskilled criminals.
Seeing how dres are so dependent on labor I don't see why this would only be limited to common criminals. Debtors might also meet the same fate. They might have to work in a labor camp or as a servant at a rate set by law until debt I paid. Wages earned would go to the creditor until the determined amount was paid. In courts one night settle for an amount less than what is fully owed. Payment would obviously be determined by skill set of the debtor. Unskilled persons would be forced to serve in labor camps while the educated or craftsmen might work in their trade. For example, textile, pottery, alchemy specialties would be able to escape a harsher fate by being sent to places where their skills have added value. A noble might live under the care of their creditors directly on retainer as an advisor or diplomat.
Dres prisoners should be used in a manner that will maximize their value. Sitting in a cell does not do that. In a world without computers and fossil fuel'd machines every person has value, even unskilled criminals.
my opinion.
Actually, Imperial criminals are also supposed to do hard labour; it's mentioned in Morrowind dialogue in several places. I think the idea behind the stat drain upon serving time is that the player character's body breaks down due to the harsh conditions, not that he is out of practice due to languishing in a cell.
That aside, though, I think the idea of Dres working off debts and other offences is an interesting one. I would distinguish between outlanders and local criminals/debtors, though. As I see it Dres would have no problem enslaving troublesome outlanders, but it would make sense for them to keep their own separate, and on a higher level. Unless the offence is particularly heinous; attacking a noble seems like an obvious example where the offender would probably just be sold into slavery, even if he is Dunmer.
I do think nobles would be 'above' working off their debts through labour, though, even if the labour in their case would be more in the form of advising or somesuch. I suspect they would instead have to lend their workforce to their creditors or something. Perhaps for major debts they'd even go down the 'give me your firstborn' route. Anything to avoid getting their personal dignity tarnished by acting subservient towards their (approximate) equals, let alone inferiors.
Edit: it makes me think of the bias in many ancient records, where various trades and deals are treated like one-sided tributes in favour of the one recording the transaction. A Dres noble might mention how a fellow noble begged for his aid in digging an irrigation channel, as he was short on workers. What he'd mean is naturally that he had to lend his workers to the other noble to cover a debt.
That aside, though, I think the idea of Dres working off debts and other offences is an interesting one. I would distinguish between outlanders and local criminals/debtors, though. As I see it Dres would have no problem enslaving troublesome outlanders, but it would make sense for them to keep their own separate, and on a higher level. Unless the offence is particularly heinous; attacking a noble seems like an obvious example where the offender would probably just be sold into slavery, even if he is Dunmer.
I do think nobles would be 'above' working off their debts through labour, though, even if the labour in their case would be more in the form of advising or somesuch. I suspect they would instead have to lend their workforce to their creditors or something. Perhaps for major debts they'd even go down the 'give me your firstborn' route. Anything to avoid getting their personal dignity tarnished by acting subservient towards their (approximate) equals, let alone inferiors.
Edit: it makes me think of the bias in many ancient records, where various trades and deals are treated like one-sided tributes in favour of the one recording the transaction. A Dres noble might mention how a fellow noble begged for his aid in digging an irrigation channel, as he was short on workers. What he'd mean is naturally that he had to lend his workers to the other noble to cover a debt.