Proposal for a new Tier II Velothi settlement -Saint Llothis
Moderator: Lead Developers
Sorry for my delay in replying to this. When I wanted to reply words stopped working, so I had to resort to pictures. 
[url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisColour.png~original][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisColour.png[/img][/url]
North is towards the top right of the image. (The docks are facing straight eastwards). I chose the northernmost location on your map (#1), though I think it would work just as well in the southern location.
I expanded the culture focus to include education and theology, to show that, while the Temple does expect blind faith in the Tribunal, it is not really a religion that works by keeping its populace ignorant.
For that, I somewhat neglected the industrial side of things; while there should be a lot of industry in Llothis, I do not think it should take center stage.
Here is a rough breakdown of some notable buildings:
[url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisBuildings.png~original][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/th_LlothisBuildings.png[/img][/url]
1. I do not think either a temple or the hall of grievances are really important enough to take the center stage of such a large settlement, so, as I was thinking that Llothis should be a place of learning anyway, I thought of the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-twenty]Whirling School[/url] from the 36 Lessons; the building would basically be a university of theology, though that's a rather uninteresting way of putting it. On second glance, using existing assets, I could probably make a more interesting building shell...
2. the Clergy House has beds for all of the resident priests, but there should probably also be a dedicated hostel for priests in training elsewhere in Llothis.
3. the Priest School is somewhat more basic than the Whirling School; it focuses mainly on the practical end of things, as well as the more accessible teachings. (Saryoni's Sermons, Homilies of Blessed Almalexia...). It is tucked behind the Whirling School, and as such not visible in the image.
4. the Hall of Itinerants is an administrative building from which priests are sent off across the province to wherever they might be needed.
5. the Hall of Grievances, as per your description.
While the religious quarter may seem disconnected from the rest of the city -- and as such the people -- it sits on the bend of the road where Veloth turned north after reaching the coast, and as such would be a center of activity. (I realize now that the bend may actually be located further south, in Lan Murha, but I think either alternative works, and either way the religious quarter would be on the pilgrimage route). It isn't really hidden from view anyway.
6. the temple; somewhat grander than the typical temple, but no different in focus. It would naturally have a shrine of St. Llothis.
7. the School of Letters is for the common folk, and mainly teaches literacy and some Sunday-school-level stuff. Participation is voluntary and free. While the building is rather small, in times of greater activity priests would also teach outside wherever there is space.
8. the Garrison is rather small. While this Velothi town, unlike others, does have a permanent garrison, it still relies on guards from whatever Castle-Estate controls/is closest to Llothis to pad out its numbers. Velothi towns should not be especially fortified, in my opinion.
9. this is just a random cornerclub of the common Velothi; its members would not be priests, and it would not have an industrial focus.
10. I ended up putting the guilds and craftsmer halls in the southern end of the town, mostly out of frame. They would be crowded around the stretch of mainroad that leads south towards Lan Murha. The guilds and craftsmer halls could or could not be segregated. (Probably the guilds would on one side of the road and the industry on the other).
I don't think priests or craftsmer should have notably larger houses. Some might have fancier looking houses, (so ex_vivec_h_01, ex_vivec_h_05 and ex_vivec_h_06; pm furniture on the inside, maybe RM for priests) but that's about it. Otherwise the player might get the impression that the Velothi have a different sort of nobility, rather than no nobility (aside from the Indoril).
The result of all that is three broad districts:
AB
CB
C
Where A is the theological district, B is the commoners' district and C is the industry/guild district, where most of the services and outlander-friendly inn(s) would be located. I noticed that I forgot to draw in a siltstrider. It should probably go behind the Hall of Grievances.
All of this could probably fit into 1 cell, with a total of 45-50 interiors. While I realize that only using one cell for a Tier II might feel inadequate, after working with the Velothi set I think it simply is that compact, and that even with the limit on size the city should feel impressive.
Tell me if the large image causes any problems, by the way.
[url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisColour.png~original][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisColour.png[/img][/url]
North is towards the top right of the image. (The docks are facing straight eastwards). I chose the northernmost location on your map (#1), though I think it would work just as well in the southern location.
I expanded the culture focus to include education and theology, to show that, while the Temple does expect blind faith in the Tribunal, it is not really a religion that works by keeping its populace ignorant.
For that, I somewhat neglected the industrial side of things; while there should be a lot of industry in Llothis, I do not think it should take center stage.
Here is a rough breakdown of some notable buildings:
[url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/LlothisBuildings.png~original][img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/th_LlothisBuildings.png[/img][/url]
1. I do not think either a temple or the hall of grievances are really important enough to take the center stage of such a large settlement, so, as I was thinking that Llothis should be a place of learning anyway, I thought of the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-twenty]Whirling School[/url] from the 36 Lessons; the building would basically be a university of theology, though that's a rather uninteresting way of putting it. On second glance, using existing assets, I could probably make a more interesting building shell...
2. the Clergy House has beds for all of the resident priests, but there should probably also be a dedicated hostel for priests in training elsewhere in Llothis.
3. the Priest School is somewhat more basic than the Whirling School; it focuses mainly on the practical end of things, as well as the more accessible teachings. (Saryoni's Sermons, Homilies of Blessed Almalexia...). It is tucked behind the Whirling School, and as such not visible in the image.
4. the Hall of Itinerants is an administrative building from which priests are sent off across the province to wherever they might be needed.
5. the Hall of Grievances, as per your description.
While the religious quarter may seem disconnected from the rest of the city -- and as such the people -- it sits on the bend of the road where Veloth turned north after reaching the coast, and as such would be a center of activity. (I realize now that the bend may actually be located further south, in Lan Murha, but I think either alternative works, and either way the religious quarter would be on the pilgrimage route). It isn't really hidden from view anyway.
6. the temple; somewhat grander than the typical temple, but no different in focus. It would naturally have a shrine of St. Llothis.
7. the School of Letters is for the common folk, and mainly teaches literacy and some Sunday-school-level stuff. Participation is voluntary and free. While the building is rather small, in times of greater activity priests would also teach outside wherever there is space.
8. the Garrison is rather small. While this Velothi town, unlike others, does have a permanent garrison, it still relies on guards from whatever Castle-Estate controls/is closest to Llothis to pad out its numbers. Velothi towns should not be especially fortified, in my opinion.
9. this is just a random cornerclub of the common Velothi; its members would not be priests, and it would not have an industrial focus.
10. I ended up putting the guilds and craftsmer halls in the southern end of the town, mostly out of frame. They would be crowded around the stretch of mainroad that leads south towards Lan Murha. The guilds and craftsmer halls could or could not be segregated. (Probably the guilds would on one side of the road and the industry on the other).
I don't think priests or craftsmer should have notably larger houses. Some might have fancier looking houses, (so ex_vivec_h_01, ex_vivec_h_05 and ex_vivec_h_06; pm furniture on the inside, maybe RM for priests) but that's about it. Otherwise the player might get the impression that the Velothi have a different sort of nobility, rather than no nobility (aside from the Indoril).
The result of all that is three broad districts:
AB
CB
C
Where A is the theological district, B is the commoners' district and C is the industry/guild district, where most of the services and outlander-friendly inn(s) would be located. I noticed that I forgot to draw in a siltstrider. It should probably go behind the Hall of Grievances.
All of this could probably fit into 1 cell, with a total of 45-50 interiors. While I realize that only using one cell for a Tier II might feel inadequate, after working with the Velothi set I think it simply is that compact, and that even with the limit on size the city should feel impressive.
Tell me if the large image causes any problems, by the way.
Your concept art is stunning! 
I tried to make one myself, but obviously I won't do much better than that.
I don't think choosing the location between #1 and #2 is important right now, it should be done only if the proposal gets accepted. Seeing the region's geography would roughly be the same, the town's design would not change much from one spot to another.
One thing I like with your work abd TR in general is the feeling of verticality. It really highlights what would be the core of the city. If I've understood correctly, you're suggesting adding a road that would go North right behind the Whirling School. However, I'm not a big fan of having this huge building right in the middle of the religious quarter: it would obscure the buildings behind (Hall of Itinerants and Priest School), and it doesn't give the feeling it's right in the middle of a road. I'd be in favor of placing the Whirling School in the North-Western corner, with a road going through the quarter and splitting into a fork at the end. Please excuse my very poor Paint skills (the big circular building would be the Whirling School, the brown part the road, and the arrows the stairs):
[url=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Opiece06/media/Llothisreligiousquarter_zps5c3230ef.jpg.html][img]http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag211/Opiece06/Llothisreligiousquarter_zps5c3230ef.jpg[/img][/url]
Also, I don't think the Hall of Itinerants would need a building of its own. It could easily be added to the Clergy House in my opinion. However I don't really mind, so I guess that would be up to the guy in charge of the exterior.
Even if you didn't really include it, I don't think the industrial part of the town should be overlooked. A Velothi town needs to feel different from a Temple town, so the industrial quarter should balance the current religious focus. And seeing the town's named after Saint Llothis, it should probably include a big building full of tailors (not necessarily selling clothes, but at least making them). A big majority of the Dunmer living here would be craftsmen, so the industrial part needs to be big enough to reflect that.
A few notes regarding my first post:
- there should be no foreigner at all, even in the guilds, except for 1 or 2 foreign priests in training. We know that the Temple accepts all races in their ranks (such as the player), so we should probably show that in game at the school. However, these 1 or 2 strangers would have to live there because of the school, and no foreigner in his right mind would want to live in Llothis: it's a traditional Dunmeri town located in one of the Easternmost parts of Morrowind with practically no business opportunity. Foreigners would be better off in more central settlements, like OE, Almalexia, etc. Also, the inhabitants would not necessarily be racist, but intrigued and a bit xenophobic: they'd be curious as to why the player (if he's a foreigner) is here and be as xenophobic as any Dunmer, but they wouldn't necessarily reject him.
- The Temple should be very close to the common people in Llothis, going even further than the regular Temple. In addition to charity, they'd be teaching lessons (School of Letters) and even possibly hosting homeless/poor Dunmeri people (maybe in the Clergy House, but I'd be more in favour of adding some beds in the Temple).
- I only suggested the successful craftsmen/important priests owning big houses in case someone wanted to have some bigger houses, but I don't think it's necessary. Moreover, it would feel a bit awkward with the modest aspect of the town and the Temple.
However, I think we need some more opinions before developing this too much, especially if the settlement proposal is rejected in the end.
I tried to make one myself, but obviously I won't do much better than that.I don't think choosing the location between #1 and #2 is important right now, it should be done only if the proposal gets accepted. Seeing the region's geography would roughly be the same, the town's design would not change much from one spot to another.
One thing I like with your work abd TR in general is the feeling of verticality. It really highlights what would be the core of the city. If I've understood correctly, you're suggesting adding a road that would go North right behind the Whirling School. However, I'm not a big fan of having this huge building right in the middle of the religious quarter: it would obscure the buildings behind (Hall of Itinerants and Priest School), and it doesn't give the feeling it's right in the middle of a road. I'd be in favor of placing the Whirling School in the North-Western corner, with a road going through the quarter and splitting into a fork at the end. Please excuse my very poor Paint skills (the big circular building would be the Whirling School, the brown part the road, and the arrows the stairs):
[url=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Opiece06/media/Llothisreligiousquarter_zps5c3230ef.jpg.html][img]http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag211/Opiece06/Llothisreligiousquarter_zps5c3230ef.jpg[/img][/url]
Also, I don't think the Hall of Itinerants would need a building of its own. It could easily be added to the Clergy House in my opinion. However I don't really mind, so I guess that would be up to the guy in charge of the exterior.
Even if you didn't really include it, I don't think the industrial part of the town should be overlooked. A Velothi town needs to feel different from a Temple town, so the industrial quarter should balance the current religious focus. And seeing the town's named after Saint Llothis, it should probably include a big building full of tailors (not necessarily selling clothes, but at least making them). A big majority of the Dunmer living here would be craftsmen, so the industrial part needs to be big enough to reflect that.
A few notes regarding my first post:
- there should be no foreigner at all, even in the guilds, except for 1 or 2 foreign priests in training. We know that the Temple accepts all races in their ranks (such as the player), so we should probably show that in game at the school. However, these 1 or 2 strangers would have to live there because of the school, and no foreigner in his right mind would want to live in Llothis: it's a traditional Dunmeri town located in one of the Easternmost parts of Morrowind with practically no business opportunity. Foreigners would be better off in more central settlements, like OE, Almalexia, etc. Also, the inhabitants would not necessarily be racist, but intrigued and a bit xenophobic: they'd be curious as to why the player (if he's a foreigner) is here and be as xenophobic as any Dunmer, but they wouldn't necessarily reject him.
- The Temple should be very close to the common people in Llothis, going even further than the regular Temple. In addition to charity, they'd be teaching lessons (School of Letters) and even possibly hosting homeless/poor Dunmeri people (maybe in the Clergy House, but I'd be more in favour of adding some beds in the Temple).
- I only suggested the successful craftsmen/important priests owning big houses in case someone wanted to have some bigger houses, but I don't think it's necessary. Moreover, it would feel a bit awkward with the modest aspect of the town and the Temple.
However, I think we need some more opinions before developing this too much, especially if the settlement proposal is rejected in the end.
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Ironed Maidens
- Developer
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Perhaps Wolli's mountainous meshes could be used to house the Whirling School, so there could be a hill in the corner of the town and instead of something being built atop it, it could be built inside, and perhaps some type of religious pillars could be placed atop it to still give more verticality to the city? What is everyone's idea of what the whirling school would look like exactly? From the Sermons I gather it would have simple pillows used for seating, it would be mostly candle lit, and there would be separated rooms used for meditation/scribing/scrying.
Maybe pillars or even poles/pole structures would be suitable to have dotted along the top of the hill, as a sort of homage to the birth of the school. Or are we planning on having this be THE original Whirling School?The lines of Moon Axle were collected by Velothi philosophers and taken into caves. There, and for a year, Vivec taught the philosophers how to turn the lines of his son into the spokes of mystery wheels. This was the birth of the first Whirling School. Before, there had only been the surface thought of fire.
I like the proposed design, and support the concept of creating another Velothi settlement in that area to increase population density. However I have a few issues.
I have concerns about the name. Apart from the Tribunal (Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec), I don't believe there are any other settlements in Morrowind named after individuals. Even though Llothis is a saint, I don't believe it would be right to elevate him in that way, and it may distract from the uniqueness of those cities.
I don't think it should be a tier 2 settlement. If Tamriel Rebuilt is to follow the master plan for House Indoril, there needs to be a clear divide between the castle-estates of Indoril nobles, and the lesser settlements of the Velothi. There is also the case of Almalexia being a super city, which requires it to be depicted as dwarfing all surrounding settlements.
I therefore believe any Velothi settlements in Indoril lands should be capped at tier 3.
I have concerns about the name. Apart from the Tribunal (Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec), I don't believe there are any other settlements in Morrowind named after individuals. Even though Llothis is a saint, I don't believe it would be right to elevate him in that way, and it may distract from the uniqueness of those cities.
I don't think it should be a tier 2 settlement. If Tamriel Rebuilt is to follow the master plan for House Indoril, there needs to be a clear divide between the castle-estates of Indoril nobles, and the lesser settlements of the Velothi. There is also the case of Almalexia being a super city, which requires it to be depicted as dwarfing all surrounding settlements.
I therefore believe any Velothi settlements in Indoril lands should be capped at tier 3.
I think there can be an exception or two.Ex wrote:I therefore believe any Velothi settlements in Indoril lands should be capped at tier 3.
House Indoril is known to be the superior Great House of Morrowind, and I don't think that their position will be shown very well if they are given only one large city with a few surrounding velothi labor towns. Also, creating a tier 2 settlement will let developers use the velothi tileset like it has never been used before, which could lead to many great new ideas and designs. The settlement could also help show a less generic side of the velothi people, as Opiece had said. And finally, I think we already have enough tier 3 settlements in the area. (Bosmora, Dondril, Vul, etc.) And I don't think we'll really want another one.
As for the city's name, I also will agree that Llothis sounds a bit odd. Perhaps we should throw up a few new ideas, if other people agree.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
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sasquatch2o
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I like the two most recent city designs. This plan seems especially thorough, however my issue with this and so many other ideas remains. We frankly do not have enough people to properly finish what cities we already have planned. This city also does not even appear on any original maps or lore so it we create additional massive workload. We need ideas and implementation of quests and NPCs not more unnecessary places to be filled. These are the most essential contributions people here are most hesitant to offer for some reason. This is IMO counter productive and non-priority, regardless of how well planned or appealing the design is.
If too few or noone remains who can script, NPC or quest, new people need to be actively recruited and tutorials collected. We need a copy-paste ready selection of scripts to make dungeons more interesting. Maybe the same could maybe be done for some basic functions in quests to help streamline the process and ease to ease new people into questing by making cookie cutter quests more doable.
If too few or noone remains who can script, NPC or quest, new people need to be actively recruited and tutorials collected. We need a copy-paste ready selection of scripts to make dungeons more interesting. Maybe the same could maybe be done for some basic functions in quests to help streamline the process and ease to ease new people into questing by making cookie cutter quests more doable.
my opinion.
Nobody had said that work on this city should begin any time soon, or even be done at all. So far, this is all just planning.sasquatch2o wrote:This is IMO counter productive and non-priority, regardless of how well planned or appealing the design is.
Also, we're no longer basing all of our work off of old maps or lore, so starting new cities from scratch is alright.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
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sasquatch2o
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Take a look at [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-province-concept-official]this map[/url]. Bethesda clearly altered many things with Vvardenfell since it was made. So who's to say we can't do the same here?sasquatch2o wrote:What is the goal then if not to recreate Morrowind as it was intended? This is just another expansive mistake in a long series of mistakes to excuse previous errors in planning and open the doors for more poor decisions in the future. More cities here are not even needed.
The proposed areas for the city are currently lacking of npc's, which doesn't make much sense in the middle of lush Indoril lands. With that, I think at least planning for a new city is a good decision to make.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
I'd like to bump this thread as the town was discussed during the last Skype Meeting.
The town of Bosmora will be placed more towards the coast, rebuilt in the Velothi tileset, renamed to Lan Murha and use the concept for Saint Llothis.
I'm very eager to see this develop as it will demonstrate a lot of new and unique things.
The town of Bosmora will be placed more towards the coast, rebuilt in the Velothi tileset, renamed to Lan Murha and use the concept for Saint Llothis.
I'm very eager to see this develop as it will demonstrate a lot of new and unique things.
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Yeti
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Here's the Lan Murha's brief description from Swiftoak's Indoril Proposal, which I think outlines a fitting identity for the settlement. Naturally, it's exact location (whether on the mouth of the Orthren or further up river) is still up to debate, and we can also fit in ideas from the above discussion as well.
Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:Lan Murha (III): Lan Murha is another major town on the east road, on the opposite side of the valley. Situated upon the Mouth of the Orethan River, its’ primarily situated as a trade town, and port of entry for ships en-route to the capital. Inside the town also lies the Shrine of the Last Guide, the site where it is speculated Veloth first caught sight of the Eastern Sea.
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