"Another style, with ornate stone buildings, was common on mainland Morrowind in the Second Era. The city of Mournhold was still built in that style in the Third Era."
this was to say in the many wikis on morrowind, and it's architecture.
is it possible that the indoril buildings in mournhold in the tribunal expansion were an outdated second era styled building system? not found elsewhere?
this evidense proves my theory that the standard architecture of the indoril is actually velothi. and, it would make a lot of sense, due to it's use as the temple's face-front.
if you guys have known of this error for some time now, please tell me, otherwise, tell me what you think on this...
it is quite interesting.
a possible error in lore/text
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st.Veloth, The Repenting
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a possible error in lore/text
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
- sotha sil
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st.Veloth, The Repenting
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i just want to convey a possible truth.
Re: a possible error in lore/text
Although this quote isn't very reliable, we will be making Mournhold the only city with true Indoril architecture, with the exception of the castle-estates. The remaining settlements will eventually be redone in the Velothi tileset. You can see further info on the subject [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=322420&highlight=#322420]here[/url], from one of Sload's old posts.st.Veloth, The Repenting wrote:"Another style, with ornate stone buildings, was common on mainland Morrowind in the Second Era. The city of Mournhold was still built in that style in the Third Era."
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
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ihavefivehat
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I looked at that quote on the UESP in context and it looks like it's just someone's way of explaining why all the Dunmer buildings in Elder Scrolls Online (which takes place in the second era) use the Indoril style.
I wouldn't take it too seriously. In reality, the devs of ESO probably just didn't want to create 4 sets of architecture for Morrowind when they were using just one for every other province.
The only in-game piece of information I could find concerning Velothi architecture is this line of savant dialogue:
"A fourth Great House style, the Velothi or Temple style, is evident in the monumental architecture, bridges, buttresses, and grand canals of the ancient religious center of Vivec City."
It's a little bit ambiguous because it calls it a Great House style, but I don't think that's a reference to Indoril. If the Velothi style was meant to be Indoril, then why was it used for Vos?
I wouldn't take it too seriously. In reality, the devs of ESO probably just didn't want to create 4 sets of architecture for Morrowind when they were using just one for every other province.
The only in-game piece of information I could find concerning Velothi architecture is this line of savant dialogue:
"A fourth Great House style, the Velothi or Temple style, is evident in the monumental architecture, bridges, buttresses, and grand canals of the ancient religious center of Vivec City."
It's a little bit ambiguous because it calls it a Great House style, but I don't think that's a reference to Indoril. If the Velothi style was meant to be Indoril, then why was it used for Vos?
+1ihavefivehat wrote:what ihavefivehat said
The UESP wiki text is just trying to find a way to reconcile the fact that ESO uses the Mournhold architectural throughout the province.
Also as RyanS pointed out the Velothi set will be the architectural style we'll be using for most of Indoril towns (sans Almalexia and the castle-estates). So we're basically already are doing what you're suggesting!
We'd be a pretty awful bunch of people if we got so worked up as to hate someone only because of architecturest.Veloth, The Repenting wrote:oh man, i can FEEL the hate radiating from what's to come, don't hate me
Off topic edit: Read some of the ESO articles in the UESP and it'd seem that Bal Foyen (the name TR formerly had for Andothren) is official ESO lore now. Cool.
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Terrifying Daedric Foe
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Mind that the quote is not necessarily wrong; the city of Almalexia got destroyed in the last year of the first era, and as such its rebuilding would have taken place at the start of the second era. I don't think it would be far-fetched to assume that a new style of architecture would have been developed for the purpose of rebuilding Morrowind's capital, and that that style would then have been adopted by others, specifically the Indoril nobles with their castle-estates.
That being said, and this goes for ESO as well as TR, the use of architecture sets are more convention than intended reality. Morrowind's settlements vary in age from millennia (especially Necrom, but also all the House capitals) to completely new (player strongholds). In reality, one would expect a huge variation of styles and forms, both over the millennia and from one region to another. To do things correctly, we'd really have to model every individual building after thinking about when it was built, who built it, etc., but that would be rather silly.
Morrowind's, and consequently TR's, compromise was to give each major faction an architecture set, with Velothi being either the Temple set or the non-affiliated Dunmer set, which are really the same thing. ESO did much the same thing, from what little I know of it, except, due to its scale, each 'faction' represented a whole province.
Now earlier in Morrowind's planning, and still in some Morrowind dialogue, it almost seems as though the devs were thinking of either only having a single Dunmer architecture set, or perhaps going the Oblivion and Skyrim route of giving the major cities (the faction capitals) their own architecture set and then having a generic province-wide set to cover everything else.
This set appears to have been a mixture of the Velothi set and some of the House Redoran buildings.
As such, I personally think that ESO should have gone with that for their Dunmer set, and that by going with stone and tiled roofs they and the developers behind Tribunal tossed aside the most unique aspects of Dunmer architecture.
I might as well go a little further back. Before Morrowind was weirded up, which was probably around when Redguard and the 1st PGE were created, Bethesda had apparently intended for Morrowind to be -- essentially -- Elizabethan England (I hope I got that right), with lots of intrigue and backstabbing and such. This was Daggerfall's Morrowind, and provides context to some of the older books which really don't read like they're talking about Morrowind. That is probably the reason why common Dunmer speak an odd sort of pseudo-English accent in Skyrim and [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-alvur-relds]a pre-Morrowind interview[/url], and I personally think Tribunal was also a call-back to that Morrowind in many ways.
If Bethesda had made the whole of Morrowind as originally intended, I doubt Mournhold would have looked as it did in Tribunal. But, to be fair, if they had done so most settlements would have had the same architecture set, and most of the province might have been randomly generated. Morrowind would have looked more generic, perhaps. Tribunal looks the way it does because it was an expansion, and I've always been rather ambivalent to its visuals, and consequently its architecture, in particular because I do not think it fits in with Morrowind's vision.
For me, our using the tileset at all is somewhat of a compromise; it is a full tileset, and doesn't look bad in and of itself, so it would be somewhat of a waste not to use it. With the Indoril Proposal and the efforts of Sload and others, I feel like it ended up a pretty good compromise.
That being said, and this goes for ESO as well as TR, the use of architecture sets are more convention than intended reality. Morrowind's settlements vary in age from millennia (especially Necrom, but also all the House capitals) to completely new (player strongholds). In reality, one would expect a huge variation of styles and forms, both over the millennia and from one region to another. To do things correctly, we'd really have to model every individual building after thinking about when it was built, who built it, etc., but that would be rather silly.
Morrowind's, and consequently TR's, compromise was to give each major faction an architecture set, with Velothi being either the Temple set or the non-affiliated Dunmer set, which are really the same thing. ESO did much the same thing, from what little I know of it, except, due to its scale, each 'faction' represented a whole province.
Now earlier in Morrowind's planning, and still in some Morrowind dialogue, it almost seems as though the devs were thinking of either only having a single Dunmer architecture set, or perhaps going the Oblivion and Skyrim route of giving the major cities (the faction capitals) their own architecture set and then having a generic province-wide set to cover everything else.
This set appears to have been a mixture of the Velothi set and some of the House Redoran buildings.
As such, I personally think that ESO should have gone with that for their Dunmer set, and that by going with stone and tiled roofs they and the developers behind Tribunal tossed aside the most unique aspects of Dunmer architecture.
I might as well go a little further back. Before Morrowind was weirded up, which was probably around when Redguard and the 1st PGE were created, Bethesda had apparently intended for Morrowind to be -- essentially -- Elizabethan England (I hope I got that right), with lots of intrigue and backstabbing and such. This was Daggerfall's Morrowind, and provides context to some of the older books which really don't read like they're talking about Morrowind. That is probably the reason why common Dunmer speak an odd sort of pseudo-English accent in Skyrim and [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-alvur-relds]a pre-Morrowind interview[/url], and I personally think Tribunal was also a call-back to that Morrowind in many ways.
If Bethesda had made the whole of Morrowind as originally intended, I doubt Mournhold would have looked as it did in Tribunal. But, to be fair, if they had done so most settlements would have had the same architecture set, and most of the province might have been randomly generated. Morrowind would have looked more generic, perhaps. Tribunal looks the way it does because it was an expansion, and I've always been rather ambivalent to its visuals, and consequently its architecture, in particular because I do not think it fits in with Morrowind's vision.
For me, our using the tileset at all is somewhat of a compromise; it is a full tileset, and doesn't look bad in and of itself, so it would be somewhat of a waste not to use it. With the Indoril Proposal and the efforts of Sload and others, I feel like it ended up a pretty good compromise.
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st.Veloth, The Repenting
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omg thank you all for not hating me! the last group i worked with if i said something outrageous like this, i would be insta-banned!
you all have my heartfelt respect.
also, i thank those who agree with me, in that most indoril settlements should be velothi.
older cities such as davon's watch, akamora and ald sotha could be done in the old indoril style, but most of the indoril settlements should be done in velothi, perhaps even a few cantons could border the other provinces as temple/dunmer fortresses.
(that last part is just a suggestion i threw in there cause i thought it would be cool)
oh and just a question, will skylamps be included in-game?
i have to thank you gnomey for that interview, i know this is off topic, but i wish to see many of those things, and from the looks of it, ash is dominent on the mainland! see, why would a dunmer talk of velothis, and ash in the same sentence if there was no ash there... i could go on for days on how eye opening this interview was... Thank You!
you all have my heartfelt respect.
also, i thank those who agree with me, in that most indoril settlements should be velothi.
older cities such as davon's watch, akamora and ald sotha could be done in the old indoril style, but most of the indoril settlements should be done in velothi, perhaps even a few cantons could border the other provinces as temple/dunmer fortresses.
(that last part is just a suggestion i threw in there cause i thought it would be cool)
oh and just a question, will skylamps be included in-game?
i have to thank you gnomey for that interview, i know this is off topic, but i wish to see many of those things, and from the looks of it, ash is dominent on the mainland! see, why would a dunmer talk of velothis, and ash in the same sentence if there was no ash there... i could go on for days on how eye opening this interview was... Thank You!
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
- sotha sil
From what I've heard, they very likely will be.st.Veloth, The Repenting wrote:oh and just a question, will skylamps be included in-game?
And don't worry. We're not gonna insta-ban you for asking questions or throwing out ideas.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
I frankly have no idea what the developers were planning as far as ash cover is concerned. From what I have seen, it seems as though they originally planned for all of Morrowind to be ash-y, and then just Vvardenfell, and then only parts of Vvardenfell. That being said, we have decided to include plenty of ash on the mainland; there are the Grey Meadows in Redoran territory, the Armun Ashlands in Hlaalu territory, some of the ash of which periodically blows southwards over the Othreleth Woods region, (Kragenmoor, where most foreigners would enter Morrowind, is incidentally bordering the Armun Ashlands, so the first impression of travellers coming to Morrowind would be of ash. The Velothis look pretty ash-y in general, possibly as they have historically shielded the rest of Tamriel from ashfall), and then off in the east Telvannis may well get some ashlands as well. Then there are several regions that, while not ashlands, are arid and generally dusty, like Roth Roryn and Shipal Shin in the west, the Deshaan Plains, and Sundered Scar (formerly Inlet Bog) in Indoril lands. There could also be some regions like Azura's Coast that, while not ashlands, have a lot of ash in them.
As far as Skylamps are concerned, they're certainly high on the list of fauna we'd want to include. We just need a good model with good animations first. There used to be a Skylamp model in TR_Data, but I assume it had technical problems like most TR creatures have had.
As far as Skylamps are concerned, they're certainly high on the list of fauna we'd want to include. We just need a good model with good animations first. There used to be a Skylamp model in TR_Data, but I assume it had technical problems like most TR creatures have had.
Well I was thinking that the interiors are already largely unique, and that the tilesets wouldn't have to change in most cases if you did things like incorporate statics in inventive ways etc. Possibly you'd want to make some interior additions to help that along, but it'd vary in whether or not you had to.Gnomey wrote:Why only the exteriors of every building?
I am more than ready to welcome the good works of any patient madman that chases either of these dreams.
I'm a wolf.
I agree that the Old Mournhold set is probably closer to what House Indoril's architecture should have looked like. I would like to see the set expanded, or at the very least the building models to get proper interior shells rather than just acting as facades as they did in Tribunal, but naturally for the purposes of TR it will probably remain a ruin set.
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st.Veloth, The Repenting
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