Assets needed

[Aeven]

My main concern here is the lack of a door and door jamb actually.

[Rats]

Using "ex_com_dframe_lthus" + "Ex_De_Shack_Door"'s as load doors like they're used in vanilla lighthouses works IMO. Screen:

[spoiler][img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/shipint_zps0cd5425c.png[/img][/spoiler]

[RyanS]

Would that door/doorjam also work for the galleon entrance?

[Rats]

Since there's no convenient place for placing normal doors in the galleon's exterior model (not without scaling it up to bizarrely large), I'd vouch for using the "imp" trapdoors for entrances altogether.

[Gnomey]

Yeah, the interior actually looks better than I remember. The forecastle and aftercastle are unfortunately too low to accommodate a door, so a trapdoor would indeed probably be best. Maybe even a retexture. Edit: I'd actually advocate exclusively using the in_de_shipdoor_toplevel model, in conjunction with Furn_colony_ladder01. This would not require a retexture, and looks good, in my opinion.

While the common wall retexture is nice, I strongly suggest using the BM_colony_wall meshes instead. They are a perfect fit, avoid the need for interior loaddoors, (other than the trapdoors), and visually fit in without retextures. (Though I would also consider switching out the current galleon wood textures with the BM_colony textures). They are also more modular.

And that death mask does indeed look very good.

Edit: I mocked up a quick interior following the guidelines and using the models I posted above. I suggest that this plugin or one like it is included in any Imperial galleon interior claim's description as a guideline for the claimer.
While the interior layouts shouldn't be completely identical for all Imperial galleons, they also shouldn't be completely divergent either, in my opinion. I'd imagine the Imperial Navy would have standardized their ship designs to some extent; not doing so would just lead to confusion when crewmembers are transferred between ships. I think the position of the trapdoors especially should usually be the same.

The rooms as I have them:
[spoiler]Upper deck: captain's cabin, a room for a passenger, hammocks for 15 crew members; both sailors and marines. This is meant to be a warship after all.
Lower deck: ship's mess, cargo area, two cells; one for solitary confinement.

I went for a slightly warmer lighting than typical for ships; it's just another subtle way of differentiating Imperial Navy ships from local ships.[/spoiler]
I did notice a few gaps in the models: one low one in the front of the upper deck, a seam in the front of the lower deck, and a gap on either side of the lower deck up by the ceiling.

[Rats]

Took a quick look at it ingame and that mockup is incredible, Gnomey. It definitely should be used as a reference for all any future warship interior claim as you said.

IMO there's no need for retexturing the ship (I tried some BM textures on the galleon and they just would work the way I had hoped).

[Rats]

After seeing Swiftoak's cool concept of what the navy uniform could be, here's a quick mock up for inspiration.

[img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/wahtthenavy_zps3cfef542.png[/img]

[sasquatch2o]

What do we know about ship combat in elderscrolls? While this looks good visually, I'm concerned about practicality. How much melee are they engaged in and if they do potentially board other ships it would be difficult to do so in heavy armor carrying a tower shield. I think the feather on heavy helm is also a bit strange and might be an overly familiar image. Crossbow and medium armor and smaller round shield seems more practical. Spears and javelins would also be good.

If we want to be really thorough two armor sets wold be best. Maybe we could use some existing heavy pieces and create lighter armor and helmet for sailors and range troop.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3AVth1e3MzI/T8FTBK4ItrI/AAAAAAAAAnk/4DxdfK_cDCw/s1600/as.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/La_naumaquia-Ulpiano_Checa.JPG

[Gnomey]

I don't think we need to [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Venetian_galley_at_Curzola-engraving.jpg]be[/url] [url=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1927/arcabucerogalera.jpg]overly[/url] [url=http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/printcollector/fullsize/1217963.jpg]concerned[/url] about the amount of armour.
[spoiler]I'm assuming that Greeks and Romans didn't wear as much armour due to the relative scarcity of metals and lacking metalworking infrastructure and technology of their time. None of those appear to be a problem in Tamriel, by all indications. To my knowledge, the armour the soldiers are wearing in both of your pictures isn't that different from what land-troops of the same period would wear, anyway. (The paintings also do not date to classical antiquity, and as such may be inaccurate in representing what soldiers would have worn to sea at the time. Especially as the second image appears to represent an arena battle).
The second image does also show a lot of combatants wearing chest protection and an open helm, with large round shields strapped to their arms, which isn't that different from Rats' uniform.
Most western armour in Morrowind appears to be more late medieval, (even the Imperial Legion armour is made of steel), and as the images above show heavier armour was sometimes worn on ships at that period.[/spoiler]
Come to think of it, the model we are using for Imperial Navy ships is based on Dongle's Elizabethian Galleon model. Here's the first image I could find of an Elizabethian mariner. Rats is actually not too far off. (And obviously we don't want to rip stuff from real world history 1:1).

I do think a light armour alternative would be good, but studded armour might already do the job. The helmet by itself is fine, in my opinion, both for lightly and heavily armoured mariners, and I also like the feather. (You don't really see that on any other Morrowind helms, so it's fairly distinctive). In general, I think the mock-up looks good.

[hollowtreestump]

Imo if the pauldrons were removed, he'd be made to wear a shirt of similar color to his kilt, and if the shield was maybe switched with a smaller round shield he would look much better, not that he doesn't already look great.

[gro-Dhal]

Personally I think the troops (what we might now call marines) should carry normal legionary gear (maybe the studded leather armour version), and that the only uniforms needed are for officers. Ordinary crew wear common clothes.

[Seneca37]

I too have a problem with that feather. BETH and TR have added way too many RL fauna/flora to the games, in my opinion. Other things that may be more appealing: Cliff Racer Tail or Fin, but since its the Navy how about a Dreugh claw or better yet a Cephalopod claw to highlight TRs creatures.

[Gnomey]

I don't think any of those make too much sense for the Imperial Navy, personally. The feather, however -- especially hawk feathers -- are associated with Kynareth. As for real-world fauna, while I agree, I think that is somewhat of a lost cause. I'd be surprised if there were any TES games that didn't reference real-world birds somewhere. (Battlespire and maybe Arena might not, actually...)

If the feather really bothers people, maybe a [url=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fXeat5elQas/Sgafj-AMdSI/AAAAAAAAAAs/qQWIek6pxuc/s1600-h/equipo03.jpg]different[/url] configuration would look better?

I personally like the idea of marines being visually distinct from the Imperial Legion, as they are supposed to be more Nibenese to the Legion's Colovian. I think at least the helmet should be worn by all Imperial Navy marines (as opposed to sailors).

Edit: I think sailors should probably also still have some form of uniform; maybe a green cap or something.

[rot]

Great design!

I know it's a mockup, still don't get too married to the exact helm - the first thing that comes to mind [url=http://images.uesp.net/1/1c/MW-item-Domina_Armor_Male.jpg]being...[/url]

maybe give it more focus by bringing the helm & plastron (or towards the top only?) to a closer shade (or the pauldrons & skirt? scarf not really visible here but might be enough ingame). Or maybe a belt/waistpiece at the base of the armour w the same colour as the helm instead.

[sasquatch2o]

I'm most inclined to agree with gro-Dhal and others. We should use the assets available. A tan shirt, some netch pants and some non-armor shoes should be fine for sailors. For the troops just have them wear studded leather. This way vanilla replacer mods are compatible.

As for weaponry, how these guys are fighting should be considered. I suggest steel crossbow and shortsword or javelin/spear and shield. Tower shield should not be used, if it is spears should definitely weapon of choice. Another possible use for tower shield is mounting them low on side of the ship as 2nd armor or higher for protection for troop on deck while reloading crossbows.

Really though, there are so many more important things to model. Planning and implementing NPCs and quests should take priority. Rearranging exteriors or interiors in existing worldspace should be only for that reason. If sailor and navy and marine uniforms are made this would not be my choice.

_____________________________________________________________
On the subject of hats:

If they are made here are some links to hats that would be good for sailors or in general.

http://www.nordinvasion.com/item_images/full/leather_cap_a_new.png

https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/66274 ... 609629.jpg

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/429/429,1288908093,1/stock-photo-well-worn-leather-cowboy-hat-with-all-grunge-intact-work-path-64400662.jpg

http://image.made-in-china.com/4f0j00sBSQGYLIqHgp/Textile-Leather-Hat-OKX06-0010-.jpg

http://www.osfcostumerentals.org/stock/Accessories/Hats/Men%27s%20Hats/Medieval%20-%20Renaissance%20Hats/slides/09038266%20Hat%20Cap%20Mens%20Medieval%20Distressed%20black%20leather.html

http://previewcf.turbosquid.com/Preview/2014/05/12__19_43_41/pot_helmet_09.jpg943151e7-bf74-446c-a917-0d74812dcbb7Large.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/95/13/5e/95135e8099347c78c6c73662f4b09064.jpg

[Melchior Dahrk]

I think the outfit looks really neat! Very coherent and I like the color scheme.

What's with all the aversion to creating a new armor set here?

If it adds to the uniqueness of the world, then I think it's a welcome addition. It's not like every single Imperial sailor will be wearing the whole set either. There will be plenty of variation and opportunity to utilize pieces of the studded leather set. For example, I've always considered the guy below to be the example of an Imperial sailor in the vanilla game. But he's not necessarily one I'd expect to see on an Imperial war galley - he WAS on a prison ship after all.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/428 ... sailor.PNG

[Rats]

Here's some random stuff that just might be of use in OE.

[img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/oe_stuff_zps48a82810.png[/img]

a. Blades Shield
b. Talos Cult Helmet
c. Colovian Battlewine
d. Wayrest Spiced Wine
e. Unique Portrait of Barenziah, Queen of Wayrest

[Ashstaar]

I like these Rats. Particularly the wines. The painting could make a good quest item. Possibly. Nice.

[Ironed Maidens]

That painting looks moddy as all hell though..

[sasquatch2o]

I wasnt going to say anything but it does. Someone should paint over it a bit.

[Rats]

That painting looks moddy as all hell though..

That is sort of the point. The picture is based on Daggerfall game sprites, which I thought would make for a nice easter egg-ish surprise for those who played it. I understand that it does look moddy, though, and will see if I can tweak around with filters to lessen the effect.

[Gnomey]

It might look better in-game.

As for the Blades shield, I'll confess that I'm still rather bugged that the Blades were made to be a sort of praetorian guard. [spoiler](Spies intended to work in the shadows as eyes and ears and ceremonial guards intended to stand in the limelight and look impressive don't mix; and going by the in-game description of the Blades lacking any mention of bodyguard duties in Morrowind, as well as [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/lady-benochs-words-and-philosophy]at least one mention[/url] of an Emperor's bodyguard that does not appear to have been the Blades, to name a few indications, it seems that up until Oblivion the Blades were not intended to act as the Emperor's bodyguard).[/spoiler] I'd personally suggest calling the shield 'Akaviri Shield' instead, to leave things open, but it hardly matters either way.

[Rats]

It might look better in-game.

Everything looks better in-game I'll see what I can do about the painting's look nevertheless

I'd personally suggest calling the shield 'Akaviri Shield' instead, to leave things open, but it hardly matters either way.

Akaviri Shield is better, yes. I wouldn't start creating the Blades their own uniform, but I don't think that one shield is too much. (I too sort of disliked the way they were handled in Oblivion)

[Ironed Maidens]

Don't break immersion, boys. Also the frame itself really needs some work.

[Gnomey]

I wouldn't describe any of these as 'assets needed', but I think this is a better place for discussing the possibility of Old Ebonheart eventually getting a unique statue or two than [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24342&start=0]the thread[/url] in which the original (to my knowledge) discussion took place.

An advantage of statues is that most of them don't require much space, and can easily be added in after the fact, though naturally more impressive statues need more space to give the proper imposing effect. I think they're a good way to add something unique to Old Ebonheart without holding up progress on the city.

[url=http://i.imgur.com/m0OrvbG.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/m0OrvbGl.png[/img][/url]
[url=http://i.imgur.com/WCLso7k.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/WCLso7kl.png[/img][/url]

---

The first statue, and easily the most complex, is of Talos, in 1st Era garb linking him to Tiber Septim and with a gaping hole in his chest linking him to Shezzar. I designed it with a specific location in mind; spanning the two towers flanking the bridge to Old Ebonheart Castle. It represents Imperial sway over Morrowind, Talos' sword hanging over the province -- and any who visit the castle -- like the sword of Damocles. Naturally, by the time of Morrowind, its symbolism rings hollow. I feel as though some unintentional wordplay slipped in there...
Strictly speaking, the red cloth doesn't need to be animated, and the design can probably be further simplified. The focus of the statue is Imperial hubris.

The second statue is intended to be paired with the statue in Ebonheart, underlining the link between the two cities. Where Ebonheart has the dragon, representing Akatosh, Old Ebonheart has the wyrm, representing Shezzar, or by association Talos. Where the Ebonheart dragon is coming down from the heavens and circling the tower, protecting it and the world and representing the guiding hands of the gods, the wyrm rises up from the ground and winds about the tower in its striving towards the heavens, representing human endeavour.
Its linking the two Ebonhearts could also go beyond the symbolic; I noticed that the vast ebony pillar at the heart of the Ebonheart statue very much resembles a propylon. I think we could use this; the Ebonheart propylons were either of Dunmeri make, perhaps originally linking the stronghold network around Red Mountain to one on the mainland, or it was of Imperial make in imitation of the Dunmeri propylons. (Just as the symbol for Old Ebonheart is a Dunmeri sigil with an Imperial image superimposed on it). Either a special figure or -- what is more likely -- a select few are given indexes with which they can travel between the two cities. Rather than Ebonheart being a newly built port which took on the name of a much larger and still apparently thriving city that is not really that close to it, relative to other settlements in the area, because of reasons, perhaps it is just the second half of 'Old' Ebonheart, and the settlements are less distinct than they seem.
The advantage of this statue is that half of the modelling work has already been done for us. The disadvantage is that it would have a large base.

[url=http://i.imgur.com/BtWzG2H.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/BtWzG2Hl.png[/img][/url]

The four locations marked are the only ones I think could work, though an argument could be made for putting the statue just outside of the main gates.
The advantage of the first is that it rather matches the placement of the statue in Ebonheart, and would provide a nice opening view to players visiting Old Ebonheart by boat, but the disadvantage is that it would probably be hard to get the statue to look as though it belongs there, rather than having been tossed in after the fact as is naturally the case.
The advantage of the second is that the statue would be close to the docks but would have a square to itself. The disadvantages are that its view from the docks would be blocked by the walls, and that the square looks rather run-down in its current state, and the statue would look somewhat out of place as a result.
The advantage of the third is that it is in a fancy location, the disadvantage is that it wouldn't have much room there and would look rather cramped. It would also play second fiddle to the fountain, which occupies the centre of the square.
The advantage of the fourth is that it would have a square to itself which is neither too large nor too narrow; the disadvantage is that that would only be true if what currently occupies the centre of that courtyard is moved away. Also, I'm not sure whether the statue being in the castle is a good or bad thing; it was in a more accessible location in Ebonheart.
Another possibility might be to stuff it indoors, if there's a room large and impressive enough. I suppose that would be a question for Seneca.

Whereas the other two statues are supposed to represent Ebonheart and the Empire to a degree and look imposing, the third is supposed to be relatively small and crude, and can really be put pretty much anywhere. I might as well post the IRC log in which I came up with the idea:
[spoiler]<Seneca37> I've been playing around a bit with a dragon model for OE
<Gnomey> I was actually talking to Swiftoak just now about the idea of a sigil for OE,
<Gnomey> like the one for Firewatch.
<Gnomey> He might pop by at the Skype meeting and toss something up.
<Seneca37> Took one from Oblivion - tried to make sit on top of the bell tower - it didnt turn out too well.
<Seneca37> sigil?
<Gnomey> Well, symbol.
<Gnomey> The one for firewatch is dragon on a tower, facing to the right.
<Gnomey> (eastwards)
<Gnomey> http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23952
<Seneca37> Sounds good - hope he can make it.
<Gnomey> On that subject, I'm frankly leaning more towards a statue of Talos for Old Ebonheart, if anything, as discussed here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24342&start=0
<Gnomey> That being said, I'll probably take anything we get as long as it looks good,
<Gnomey> so don't mind me.
<Seneca37> I looked at some of the Talos Statues - didnt really care for most - the one with the 2 heads was kind of disturbing (one human - one dragon).
<Gnomey> Haha.
<Gnomey> Yeah, we'd probably need to try something new.
<Gnomey> I could try and toss a few basic designs together, if you'd like.
<Gnomey> Could also leave it for after the Skype meeting; it works for me either way.
<Seneca37> I'd wait - it's not something that will really hold up anything.
<Gnomey> Agreed.
<Seneca37> I'd like to see a party being held in the castle
<Gnomey> Speaking of statues, and keeping in mind that they tend not to be created,
<Gnomey> I actually think a statue of Alessia in the town might be fun;
<Gnomey> holding empty shackles.
<Gnomey> A sort of empty sign of defiance to slavery,
<Seneca37> In town - yeah that would be good
<Gnomey> that doesn't get anything done other than offending Dunmer.[/spoiler]
So as above, the purpose of the last statue would be to explore relations between outlanders and Dunmer a little; the statue was commissioned as an empty sign of defiance to the practice of slavery, and exists mostly to provide fertile ground for flavour dialogue; the offended Dunmer, the cynical outlander, the sarcastic freed slave, the naïve outlander, etc.

---

As in the IRC log, I view these all as basic designs; I'm not proposing that any or all of them be made, but I think images could be useful in helping us figure out whether we want a statue or two and how any statue we add should look.

[Theminimanx]

I really like these ideas. Nice work Gnomey! Let me show my appreciation by criticizing all your hard work

I like the idea of a big statue guarding the way to the castle, but I should point out that the current guard towers are already very large and imposing. So if we're going to put a statue on top of them, I'd recommend lowering the towers. Also, while I don't like to be negative, this statue seems like it will be the most effort for comparatively less reward. But I'll leave that up to the modellers.

That said, I love that Shezzar statue on so many levels it's not even funny. Giving Old Ebonheart a unique statue while also solving the 'two seperate Ebonhearts' problem? All of my yes!
I'm personally in favor of putting it in location 4. Leaving aside how cramped/out of place it would feel in the other locations, it makes sense to me that the propylon linking two imperial administration centers would be inside the walls of the castle. It may seem strange to put it outside the view of the citizens, but New Ebonheart has no citizens anyway (aside from visitors in the cornerclub). Plus, I was never a huge fan of some plants being the centerpiece of this huge castle.

The discussion of the other possible locations did bring to my attention that the square on location 2 is very empty. It might be a good place to put the statue of Alessia. To people visiting the city through the harbor, it looks like a grand symbol of the Empire's fight against slavery. However, its location near the slums houses gives it a different meaning to freed slaves. "Congratulations! You've just been freed! Now, welcome to poverty!"

[Gnomey]

Criticism is indeed an excellent way to show appreciation.

Also, while I don't like to be negative, this statue seems like it will be the most effort for comparatively less reward. But I'll leave that up to the modellers.

I completely agree here.

I'm personally in favor of putting it in location 4.

Yeah, of the locations I listed that's probably my favourite as well.

The discussion of the other possible locations did bring to my attention that the square on location 2 is very empty. It might be a good place to put the statue of Alessia. To people visiting the city through the harbor, it looks like a grand symbol of the Empire's fight against slavery. However, its location near the slums houses gives it a different meaning to freed slaves. "Congratulations! You've just been freed! Now, welcome to poverty!"

I like this idea a lot; it adds another layer to the ways in which the statue fails at its intended message.

[Rats]

[img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/OE_FLAGS_zps1kstflzn.png[/img]

These are an animated activator flag and two static banners with the Old Ebonheart symbol for TR_Data.

[RyanS]

Wow, great work Rats. These look awesome!

[Rats]

With Old Ebonheart having a large Imperial populus (duh) I realized there will be a bit too much repetition with only the vanilla Imperial faces. Here are some new hairstyles and heads for Imperials (and Bretons for good measure) some by Ashstaar, some by myself. Posting just the screenshot for now, but I'd really like to have these to create more variation in the NPCs of OE.

[img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/oenpcheads_zpsho0e3q8m.png[/img]

[Gnomey]

I'm always for variety. I'm a little unsure about some of the textured facial hair (as opposed to the faces where the facial hair visibly protrudes in the model); I think it often lacks definition, especially Ashtaar's mutton chops. The faces just fade to a fairly uniform brown area as though the NPC smeared mud on his face.
Other than that, while I like them, I'm not sure how convincing the chubby faces will look in game, and would consider leaving them out entirely. Morrowind doesn't have fat people, unfortunately, and introducing them randomly as just one or two Imperial males would only make their general omission more evident, I think.

At a glance, though, the rest look excellent.

[Tondollari]

I'm for the fat faces. Certain clothing can conceal the lack of actual fatness to where it wouldn't be immersion-breaking. Plus, who's to say they they don't have fat-face syndrome from eating too many eggs of a fat-faced fish?

By the way I am digging the moustachioed dude on the third row. Would have to see it in-game too but at a glance I could just eat him up with a side of greens.

[Miraclestone]

The applications are too numerous for the fat faces to not at least try it. If we can't figure out how to make them normal npcs we would have to make 'creatures' to simulate fat npcs which should be avoided unless necessary. I can see the issues though, like if you loot a person with such a face and remove their chestpiece, no matter how fat the shirt/chest made them look without it they'll have the normal six-pack skinny torso. Prehaps a custom script can be applied to such npcs to make their shirts not appear on the table of things that you can loot or something. Its something to think about, I personally think it would stand out and be appreciated by the player immensely.

[Nomadic1]

Could use a no pickup script on the fat clothing so the player cannot remove the clothes. Or perhaps script it so that if the player removes their clothes, another clothes item (naked fatness) is instantly equipped by the NPC which itself cannot be removed.

You'd also need to make it so that the NPC would never equip anything but fat clothing, regardless of what the player adds to their inventory.

[Telvayn]

Prehaps a custom script can be applied to such npcs to make their shirts not appear on the table of things that you can loot or something.

The only thing you can have not appear on the loot tables are lights (which is why they're used for various sorters)

Could use a no pickup script on the fat clothing so the player cannot remove the clothes.

Can that be done? I know you can prevent items from being picked up when they're in the open, but would that work for ones in containers (which a corpse basically is)?


What I could see working would be making an unique race (or races) for the fat NPCs, assigning the fat body meshes as their standard and giving them unique, fat clothing that is scripted to be replaced by a regular variant when equipped by the player (or possibly when looted - I think (although I may be wrong here) that it should be doable).

[Gnomey]

It would also be possible to simply not allow the player to loot the body, or -- what would probably work better -- hijack the activation of the body and open a separate container instead which the player could then loot.

That being said, I'm still rather unconvinced. I think it would be too much hassle to get this working seamlessly, and more importantly to not make fat NPCs look out of place. If we're going to introduce body shape variation, I'd rather we do so consistently, just like if we wanted to add children I'd rather we did so consistently, rather than just having a few sprinkled in some random Imperial households.
On the other hand, it is quite possible my concerns will prove overblown, and that their inclusion wouldn't look half as jarring as I expect.

[Rats]

I think adding new body types definitely falls into the "not in the scope of TR" category. I feel that we still should include the chubby faces though; it adds variety and to me they don't look odd on "normal" npc bodies -- I trust that the NPCers can make the call on what works on each individual npc and their clothing and what not.

[Yeti]

We shouldn't bother with fat bodies even if we do include the heads. It isn't that big a deal. NPCs with super wrinkly faces don't have wrinkled bodies to match, so I don't see an issue here either.

[Rats]

what Yeti said

+1

[Theminimanx]

I'll hold off on judging until I see it in-game, but my gut reaction agrees with Gnomey.