House Redoran Landscape

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

i don't get it. why does house redoran own marches and mountains when a large portion of their architecture is representational of desert dunes? the redoran tile set was meant for ashlands and desert cliffs like gnisis. all the concept art of house redoran shows desert and ashlands and there are even pieces of dialogue that reference that fact.

[Miraclestone]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way, the Redoran aren't about deserts and wastes they were about strong will and perseverance. The Velothi Mountains and ash marshes in their territory are like the lands they control on Vvardenfell in that they are harsh, its less important whether it is full of sand or snow. The land made them the way they are and they control it because no one else could. Bare in mind that the Redorans only recently went to Vvardenfell when Vivec allowed the colonization, so those deserts are new to them. I understand what you mean about the architecture and the dialog but honestly that is trumped by the in game references about the Redoran mainland. Its clearly referenced that much of the Redoran territory belonged to the ancient Nords before the Redoran took it from them, it wouldn't make much sense for the Nords to own deserts. Maybe we could have done a better job making snow-friendly buildings for them but I think what has been done for the Redoran is some of the best work TR has done so far, it all fits well despite.

[EJRS]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way, the Redoran aren't about deserts and wastes they were about strong will and perseverance.

I think you are stating a high claim in saying St.Veloth is looking at it the wrong way: understanding of the Morrowind mainland of TES3 is a matter of interpretation, and in many ways I must say that I consider St. Veloths interpretation better supported by the sources available. What it comes down to here is that TR has developed a different version of the mainland, which is fine. But please, don't say that other interpretations are wrong.

[Miraclestone]

Honestly meant no offense by what I posted above, sincerely 'You are looking at it the wrong way' was simply a phrase I was trying to using to talk about perspectives. What I saw was a question 'Why are the Redoran lands not deserts' and what I meant by 'you are looking at it the wrong way' was that St Veloth wasn't looking in the 'right' place to understand why it was this way. I should have foreseen the issue with this statement and my post in general before posting it and apologize. I'll try to think over what I post more carefully in the future .

[Gnomey]

Note that 'march' and 'marsh' are not the same word; I think you misunderstood my post in another thread. The Grey Meadows is indeed a wetland region, though not a marsh as such, and there is a small stretch of BC coast in the southeastern border of Redoran lands, but that's it. And while unusual, I hardly think the [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/sites/default/files/images/SwiftShot072.jpg]Grey[/url] [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/sites/default/files/images/SwiftShot036.jpg]Meadows[/url] is a mismatch for House Redoran.
House Redoran territory is, however, divided into marches: the Stones March, Ashes March and Waters March, going from north to south. (Vvardenfell is not a traditional march, though might qualify as a sort of 'Ghosts March'). This reflects the role of House Redoran as protectors of Morrowind.

While a lot about House Redoran still needs to be discussed, I can already irritate people by saying that I'm not completely happy with certain areas of the map and think they will need to at least get a palette swap, if not more extensive changes, more or less for the reasons you point out.
Below is a quick map I cobbled together of Redoran territory:[spoiler]The opaque area represents what I consider the minimum modern territory of the House. The more transparent area represents the maximum amount of land they have lost, with regions they possibly used to occupy but lost in brackets. (I forgot Molag Amur, but the map is very slapdash anyway; just to give a general idea).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/RF7RwIg.png[/img]
[url=http://images.uesp.net/8/8c/TR3-map-Morrowind.jpg]Here[/url] is the create map image of Morrowind for comparison.[/spoiler]The areas I'm dissatisfied with are the ones I marked as 'Coastal' and 'Mountainous', basically the regions directly above and below the Ash Swamp. Coastal is visually consistent, but I think it is far too green, and at the very least it needs some Uld Vraech trees and dryer ground textures. Mountainous includes the BC area and is, in my opinion, too patchy and also too green. I think it should be turned into some sort of visually consistent and preferably arid region, or sub-region (of, for example, Roth Roryn).

Now I do agree that the current Map 5 is too green, and that that needs to change, as above. I also am pretty sure Bethesda weren't planning to make northwesternmost Morrowind snowy, though I might be wrong; to my understanding we mostly added so much snow because of the positioning of Solstheim and, in general, the existence of the Bloodmoon expansion. I do think the snow is fitting for mountaintops, though, which is how we use it in the west, and also think Uld Vraech and Grey Meadows are interesting if atypical regions for House Redoran to inhabit and (what they in particular and Dunmer in general are rather good at) have adapted to.
However, mainland Morrowind was always supposed to be mountainous. That was not TR's idea. House Redoran was shown as inhabiting arid ashland areas in concept art, but that's because Vvardenfell, the island of ash, [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/concept_morrowind.jpg]was supposed to be their territory[/url], and covered in ash. The mainland holdings, in contrast, were to be a mixture of highlands, mountains and badlands, with no ashlands at all.
It is Bethesda who removed a good deal of the intended Redoran ashlands by making Vvardenfell more fertile and giving other Houses territory there, and by adding ashlands on the mainland we have returned the ratio of Redoran ashland to Redoran mountain back to how it was intended. I think the mountainous nature of mainland Redoran territory is one thing we shouldn't change about it any more than we already have, as I think it is consistent with both our and Bethesda's vision of the House.

[Theminimanx]

Not much to add except that I'm in favor of pallete-swapping some of the Redoran lands. The area around Baan Malur especially looks far too much like Solstheim, despite Solstheim being unique in its normalness in Vanilla.
As for the Bitter Coast, it's Vanilla stuff, so I advise caution there. Though we won't touch it anyway for years to come, so whatever.

[Gnomey]

I mean TR's Bitter Coast area, on Map 5.

[Theminimanx]

While searching for a new aesthetic for the Baan Malur area, I thought about the brown tundra areas we see in Skyrim's Whiterun. The barren look fits House Redoran quite well in my opinion.
Creating these new visuals wouldn't take a lot of effort, since it mainly involves removing a lot of the vegitation and maybe creating a new ground texture. No new models would be required.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/W8Pjm6Jl.jpg[/img]

[Gnomey]

I had something similar in mind; I've mentioned before that I'm basically treating the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=11749]TR_5-7[/url] claim as a platform in which I can try out various ideas. I already considered the region around Baan Malur too green when I was working on the claim, so I used the westernmost end of the valley Mandul is in to try out ideas for a more arid look. I'm [url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/TR_5-7_Red/5-7Highlands.jpg~original]fairly[/url] [url=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/TR_5-7_Red/5-7BarrowEntrance.jpg~original]happy[/url] with the results, though the idea probably needs some more work. (Naturally more Uld Vraech fauna and flora would help out a lot).

[RyanS]

I'm personally not too keen on changing the Baan Malur area as much as what is proposed. It'd be nice to have some new textures, and maybe remove some trees as well. In fact, I'm thinking that giving the forest a brown, dead look would be neat. However, I don't think we should go as far as to make the region a tundra.

Edit: [url=http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/gallery/Agriculture/004.jpg]This[/url] is similar to what I was thinking could work with the region. It would be a bit less dense, of course.

[Rats]

I'm agreeing here with RyanS. The Bay of Cormar and Baan Malur region is one of the best quality and most aesthetically pleasing exterior work TR has and any changes should be relatively minute IMO. New unique flora would be alright (concept art thread, GO!!) as well as revised ground textures, but I hope we won't start more thoroughly redesigning the region.

As for the Ascadian Coast directly south of the Grey Meadows -- I don't take a lot of issue with doing something more drastic with it. Currently it's somewhat meh, though the Bitter Coast-y bits I actually like. If there's a way of successfully combining the best elements of the Bitter Coast and the Roth Roryn set pieces that would be nice.

[Gnomey]

Yeah, as far as how extreme any changes would be, I don't really have a strong opinion at the moment either way, but I'm fine with keeping any changes minimal.

[EJRS]

I'm really happy to see this discussed, and I think Gnomeys suggestions are really good. While the northern areas of TRs Morrowind has a lot of esthetic merit, they just don't seem...well, particularly Morrowind.

My suggestion for a start, as far as flora is concerned, is junipers. Gnarled, twisted, tortured junipers. I think that would fit the TES3-aesthetic a fair bit better than boring, familiar straight pines, and also make it a bit different from what we'll be seing in SHOTN. The landscape around Baan Malur, while good-looking, is presently way too familiar-looking and a bit uninteresting.

Hell, I'd even be willing to take a shot at modelling some junipers if there'd be interest. Could come with separate root-models, WG-style but a bit more gnarled (I actually have some done already).

Examples:
[spoiler][img]http://www.archesandcanyonlands.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/utah-juniper-1024x768.jpg[/img]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oF6_Zk_FaGk/UH7E-47__aI/AAAAAAAAAsc/iZs9dSFVAR8/s1600/Juniper.JPG[/img][/spoiler]

[Theminimanx]

I'm not a huge fan of pine trees in any form tbh. They're european, which fantasy conventions have unfortunately made boring.

[Miraclestone]

I actually really like map 5 but when thinking about it a bit it may be redundant in the long term. Skyrim, Northern Cyrodiil and a whole lot of Highrock + maybe even a bit of Hammerfell will have a similar climate/look and it could become 'overused'. That being said, I think what is there is a good base and just needs to be 'Morrowindized' a bit to stand out. As I stated in my first post though in my opinion map 5 has some of the best quality and beautiful cells of anything TR has done so far and I'd suggest conservative changes (RyanS' suggestion is very close to my own thoughts, slight changes may make all the difference here)

[RyanS]

I'm not a huge fan of pine trees in any form tbh. They're european, which fantasy conventions have unfortunately made boring.

This is not true, actually. There are dozens of species of American pine trees. And personally, I think pines look pretty good in Morrowind.

On the topic of junipers, they could serve as very nice Uld Vraech trees, and might even fit in with the Baan Malur region pines. However, I don't think they should replace the trees there. Such replacement would require a complete rework of an already beautiful area, and we can't afford too much more of that.

[arvisrend]

I have very little skin in this game by now, but I want to second RyanS's suggestion not to change the palette around Baan Malur. The Solstheimy forest -- which can probably be made more distinct if new models arise -- makes for one of the best landscapes we have in TR, if partly because it is much easier to make an interesting forest than to make an interesting desert. (Also because of Scamp's and Nemon's work...) I am not convinced anything as good can be done with a "Whiterun caldera" like palette -- Skyrim's Whiterun caldera actually looked ugly and bland.

I wouldn't be too worried about being similar to SHotN; all I've seen of SHotN looks rather unlike Solstheim.

[Gnomey]

The idea of dead pine trees is a good one, but I would also like good pine analogues if possible; I think in essence, straight narrow stalagmite-like forms fit in quite nicely with Morrowind's aesthetic, and can make for a properly foreboding region if properly used. Some BM rocks already go in that direction, as well as the Uld Vraech trees, especially the juvenile antler firs, and I think we could capitalize on that. In the current form, I simply think the region looks too friendly and -- again -- too green.

As for junipers, I'm always hesitant when it comes to adding real-world trees to Morrowind, but the images are impressive, and they do look like they'd fit in with certain Morrowind plants like chokeweed and roobrush. My personal impression when working on my claims was that good underbrush options were lacking, so for plants which don't fit the profile of pines I see no problem in just placing them on top of (or rather around) what is already there. The more the merrier.

[EJRS]

My personal impression when working on my claims was that good underbrush options were lacking...

I must say this lack kind of shows. While the areas surrounding Baan Malur look breathtaking in screenshots, taken from a viewpoint hovering above the landscape, and while it looks really good in the editor, I was very dissapointed by how meh it looks when you actually go there in the game. Beneath the cover of the pines there really isn't much going on except a relatively flat landscape (often concealed from view by the irritatingly low pine foliage). And I very much agree that it is too friendly, too green and too familiar.

Suggestions on a rockier, more desaturated palette:
[spoiler][img]http://www.gotland.net/img/2014/1/22/9397580.jpg[/img][img]http://www.lansstyrelsen.se/gotland/SiteCollectionImages/Sv/Djur%20och%20natur/Skyddad%20natur/Naturreservat/Grogarnsberget/grogarnsberget-2.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

For underbrush, I'd suggest someting rather like oversized (not emperor parasol-gigantic) [url=http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/di/crassula/sedum/sedulyd1.jpg]types[/url] of [url=http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/di/crassula/sedum/seduann3.jpg]sedum[/url] and [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Sempervivum.nevadense.7649.jpg]something[/url] [url=http://www.fjellfotografen.se/photo/large/Klibbig_fetknopp_@wic-00570.jpg]like[/url] [url=http://wallpapersinhq.com/images/big/sempervivum-903781.jpg]sempervivum[/url].

I don't think any of this calls for dramatic changes, a nice retexturing and some added underbrush for character and colour, and I think it could be spot on.

[Rats]

As far as new groundcover is concerned I drew these and I'm thinking about making them as actual models as well:

[img]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/rats_tr/Cormar%20Bay%20flora_zpszpcxnfrg.png[/img]

Would these fit the planned new color palette for the Cormar Bay Region?

[Gnomey]

Well, the colour palette remains to be established, but I'd probably prefer a more yellowish to brownish dry grass look as a base rather than green. But either way colours can be changed easily; the form of the plant is more important. As far as that is concerned, I like all three of the plants, but would prefer if the first two get Dunmer names. Dunkreath aside, I really think we should make northwestern Morrowind a Dunmer landscape rather than a Nordic landscape.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

there is a quote used in multiple editions of the pocket guide,

"The traveler, upon crossing Shadowgate Pass, may be forgiven for believing that he has left Tamriel and entered a different world. The sky is darkened regularly by furious ash storms belched forth from the mighty Vvardenfell volcano. The familiar flora and fauna of Tamriel is exchanged for bizarre and twisted forms that can survive the regular ashfall. Cloaked and masked Dark Elves tend herds of giant insects. "

this pass is located to go through redoran territory. from what it looks like, there should be a huge change in fauna from skyrim to morrowind, just across the border.

[klep]

there should be a huge change in fauna from skyrim to morrowind, just across the border.

I very much agree.

[Saltrice]

I think the northern mainland Redoran territories are really atmospheric and well made, and therefore no large scale redoing should take place. But then I also feel urged to point out that northern boreal forests are actually filled with all sorts of weird and alien looking fungi, lichens and several otherwordly slimy molds. Most of these only happen to be quite small and easy to miss, unless they appear in great numbers. Fortunately this shouldn't necessarily apply in Morrowind, where local ecosystem seems to have some tendencies to magnify certain features, like size and weirdness.
I also share the concern about prevalence of giants bugs in north-western mainland Morrowind. A realistic solution to these worries might perhaps be adding of these really pretty Hoom Lichens around, and of course the Green Beetles seen in Telvannis. Or Shalks. And mushrooms.

[EJRS]

...I drew these and I'm thinking about making them as actual models as well...

I like the sexfoil and the lichen, and I think its a great idea introducing a plant used for dyeing. Establishing context for flora makes it more than just random plants. How about making the sexfoil a flowering succulent, with thick, slender leaves? The thistle, in my opinion looks a bit too much like an ordinary thistle. My suggesion would be to make it like only the top of an ordinary thistle, like a large, spiny, [url=http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/imgjun04/Photo01.jpg]flowering bulb[/url].

Toyed around a bit with the idea I proposed of having some kind of sempervivum-like plant(no flowers made yet). Any input on these?

[Gnomey]

I like them, but I wonder how easy to use they would be. I must confess that, for my part, being lazy, I tend to prefer flora that covers ground pretty well with relatively few faces, as opposed to single-stalk flowers and the like which don't break up the ground texture as well.

[klep]

It looks a lot like an earthly lettuce of cabbage, but the colours make it great for Morrowind imo. Nice!

[EJRS]

Another screen, and yet another to show scale.

[sasquatch2o]

The images EJRS posted are how I envision the coastal area of dres territory. I posted a few similar images in a regional concepts or brainstorming thread. I'd like see the images you are posting for an already completed perfectly fine area. Used or a transitional zone along the southern mountains and Rowlett forest.

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24686&highlight=regional+variety+removing+ashlands
The purple models look like cabbage to me, like barnacles crossed with a cabbage.

On Baan malur, the area isn't fully finished the town needs some fixing. Why doesn't someone figure what actually does need to be fixed and resolve those issues before tampering needlessly.

[klep]

We are having fun

[EJRS]

The purple models look like cabbage to me, like barnacles crossed with a cabbage.

I'm not entirely sure if this is meant as a good thing or not, it does sound like you're describing [url=http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000s8dxcx9RDUQ/s/880/880/AH-Houseleek-Sempervivum-grandiflorum-2460.jpg]houseleeks[/url], though. In any case, I don't mind transcending bivalence.

Anyway, it seems to me like the potential redesign of the northern regions should be split into its own topic, seeing as there seems to be enough foundation for a proper discussion.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

will there be a huge change in fauna, flora, and landscape, across the border, or will we keep the current pseudo-skyrim look.

[Yeti]

will there be a huge change in fauna, flora, and landscape, across the border, or will we keep the current pseudo-skyrim look.

I haven't been following this thread closely, but I assume (and hope) there won't be any major changes along Morrowind's border.

[EJRS]

...I assume (and hope) there won't be any major changes along Morrowind's border.

There seems to be enough opinions about this to discuss the topic in a more focused manner. Could this be split into a new topic in an appropriate section and under a more appropriate header, so that this might be properly discussed and planned in a way more visible and easy to follow by all concerned, before any more steps are taken?

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

if we're to split this page, i would suggest one for new redoran fauna, and the other for landscape and lore conflict

[Gnomey]

For the time being, I've just renamed the thread and moved it to Master Planning. Until we've decided on concrete regions, I'm hesitant to split the thread up further. As far as I'm concerned, specific fauna concepts and concept art can be discussed [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23032&start=40]here[/url], and we can figure out how we want to handle models when we get that far.

[10Kaziem]

Since this came up recently in the IRC thread:

My general opinion on exteriors we already have mostly done, is that they should be changed only minorly for the purpose of visuals (mainly using a few new models, or texture changes). For the purpose of optimization and bugfixes (such as horrible horrible framerates in some places) then more extensive repairs should be done. Seriously, it looks pretty good now, it's unusual for Morrowind, and if we want to make it more unusual I think maybe subtle work would do better than a wild update.

[RyanS]

I agree. Subtle changes are the way to go.

[Not]

Would it be possible to make that into a claim and put it out so it actually gets done?

I think it'd be awesome if we could start NPCing and merging those interiors directly into the mainfile (assuming the ints are already done that is.)

I'll be on IRC more and I'd really like to go over a topographical map of this particular area and explore the geography, history, lore etc.

Basically, I want to get a decent feel for this region so we can start working more on what needs to be done concerning this region.