Passes

[Gnomey]

I am generally an advocate of discussing subjects when we are ready for them, such as future regions and future settlements. I feel as though this is one topic where local conditions are potentially unimportant, however, and more to the point I feel as though I ought to have brought up one specific concern a long time ago, for which I apologize.

First, the IRC log, if you feel like reading pretty much the rest of this post with repetition, orthographical errors and other forms of obfuscation:

[spoiler][...]
<Gnomey> I'm trying to remember where we pulled the name Septim's Gate from...
<Gnomey> probably a map or something.
<Gnomey> Hm.
<Gnomey> MAybe we did come up with it,
<Gnomey> in which case I would support de-passifying it. Four passes are plenty.
<arvisrend> well
<arvisrend> the land has to stop abruptlz
<arvisrend> and the mountains are there to prevent it from being visiblye
<arvisrend> do you want a tunnel?
<Gnomey> Hm...
<arvisrend> also i'd suggest changing some different place
<arvisrend> if septim is what i think it is, it's nicely done
<Gnomey> IT does look nice,
<Gnomey> but it's location is bad;
<Gnomey> it would lead to northern Cyrodiil, where it's cold, frigid and empty.
<Gnomey> Or empty, at any rate.
<Gnomey> Hm...
<arvisrend> northern cyrodiil has bruma
<Gnomey> Yeah, that's off to the west, though.
<arvisrend> ok
<Gnomey> The route wouldn't be much different from going via Kragenmar->Cheydinhall->Imperial City->Bruma,
<Gnomey> which would be a lot easier, with better roads and rest stops and everything.
<arvisrend> ok
<Gnomey> Hm.
<Gnomey> Not a big deal at the moment; we can discuss it later,
<Gnomey> but I think maybe caving in the pass further on might work.
<Gnomey> Hm.
<arvisrend> how is the cell called_
<Gnomey> Or making it a secret Legion pass, maybe...
<Gnomey> Septim's Gate Pass
<arvisrend> hmm i don"t have it loaded i see
<arvisrend> ah right
<Gnomey> You know what?
<Gnomey> I took a look at Shadowmoth fort down at Kragenmar.
[...]
<Gnomey> I'd seriously consider a switcheroo, using Septim's Pass as Shadowgate or however Bethesda calls it,
<Gnomey> and using Shadowmoth somewhere else, naturally under a different name, as a Legion Fort.
<arvisrend> ah
<arvisrend> that's a nice thing
<Gnomey> The ground around Shadowmoth is flat,
<Gnomey> so it won't be hard to move.
<arvisrend> provided they fit
<arvisrend> iirc Shadowmoth is bigger
<Gnomey> Yeah, I wouldn't put Shadowmoth right where Septim's Gate is,
<Gnomey> but somewhere in or near Redoran land should work.
<Gnomey> Where Septim's Gate was would then become either mountainside or a caved-in pass or something,
<Gnomey> with no Imperial structures.
<Gnomey> It's certainly not the worst pass-related proposal I'll be making... :-/
[...]
<Gnomey> Aah, Arena. TR has six passes because of Arena. That explains it.
<Aeven> lol
<RyanS1> 6 passes seems to be reasonable enough besides that fact.
<Gnomey> Eeh, I'm mulling over it.
<RyanS1> lol, but then there'll be more bordering black marsh
<Gnomey> Only two, going by the Arena map.
<Gnomey> The only problem is that, even in the Arena map: http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/mapbigtamriel1.1.jpg
<Gnomey> only four of the passes linked to anything important.
<RyanS1> yeah, I see what you mean
<Gnomey> In TR, those two maps are still very isolated;
<Gnomey> basically in the middle of nowhere.
<Gnomey> I wouldn't mind their existing as little informal affairs or something,
<Gnomey> I just don't think they make sense as proper passes.
<Gnomey> But I'm writing a long post on the subject as we speak.
<Aeven> that map suggests Argonia is one of the most developed provinces
<Gnomey> Haha, yeah.
<Gnomey> I like to think the cartographer had no idea,
<Gnomey> so just dreamed something up.
<RyanS1> The current Rift Pass (stronghold tileset) seems to lead nowhere.
<Aeven> maybe the pass is there because the terrain makes it so
<RyanS1> but it would be a great shame to get rid of it, or even alter it heavily.
<Aeven> rather than anything usefull behind it
<Gnomey> Frankly, I'm sort of itching to the former, but know people like it,
<Gnomey> and so am considering what we could do with it.
<RyanS1> it could be made for dunmer defense
<Gnomey> I think that's a reason against, really.
<Gnomey> I don't think House Redoran should control a pass,
<Haplo> that map is a compilation of other maps
<Gnomey> and Nords and Imperial have no reason to use an inconvenient, out of the way, Dunmer-controlled pass for their invasions.
<Aeven> oh hi Hap
<Haplo> those towns in Argonia are just settlements of lizards
[...]
<RyanS1> Rift Pass could be a pilgrimage site, as addressed in my claim: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24148
[...]
<Gnomey> Ugh.
<Gnomey> Wjhy would he enter Morrowind through Rift Pass?
<Gnomey> I'd have expected either via Narsis or Kragenmar.
<RyanS1> crap
<RyanS1> lol I made that whole claim based off of the description
<Gnomey> Oh.
<RyanS1> "Rift Pass is considered to be where Veloth first entered Resdayn (modern Morrowind), and as such is considered a place of pilgrimage."
<Gnomey> I don't really see that working out;
<Gnomey> it would have been one heck of a detour for the sake of crossing an extra mountain range, plowing through snow and then winding back southwards along canyons to meet up with the direct route again.
<RyanS1> is there a map of his route?
<Gnomey> No, though I could make one.
<RyanS1> Veloth likely had no idea where he was going.
<Gnomey> THe DAedra did.
<Gnomey> They may have led him astray a little, to test him,
<Gnomey> but our Rift Pass wouldn't be 'a little'.
<Gnomey> The best route is the one that goes east most of the time.
<RyanS1> I just hate the idea of getting rid of that interior - and likely much of Rift Pass.
<Gnomey> Yeah, I'll consider whether the interior can be re-used;
<Gnomey> as well as the exterior if people are really attached to it.
<Gnomey> I'm not sure it needs to be a pass.
<RyanS1> Perhaps Rift Pass could be moved to where 'Septim's Gate' is on Swiftoaks map.
<RyanS1> or at least the basic layout of the place
<Gnomey> Perhaps,
<Gnomey> but I frankly don't think a stronghold would fly there either,
<Gnomey> as it's an impoertant Imperial pass.
<Gnomey> Putting it another way:
<Gnomey> By turning it from a pass into a stronghold,
<Gnomey> while keeping its shrine,
<Gnomey> we can provide context for a stronghold being used as a settlement, rather than a dungeon.
<Gnomey> Otherwise, as a pass, it would typically succumb to the convention of settlements matching the faction that control them.
[...]
<Gnomey> At the moment, based on that convention, I'd say that there would be a strong argument that the pass should be redone in the Redoran tileset, anyway.
<RyanS1> Maybe most of the ints. can be used for Ald Marak/ Ald Luval
<Gnomey> Hm. Why not just a new stronghold location?
<RyanS1> If those are intended to be of the stronghold tileset
<Gnomey> Most of the mainland is short on strongholds;
<RyanS1> sure
<RyanS1> yeah, it is
<Gnomey> add a tronghold, use the interiors in it, keep the shrine.
<RyanS1> don't worry, I'm not too attached to the shrine, it would just be a bit ashame to get rid of it
<Gnomey> Eh, it would work.
<Gnomey> The shrine's story could link to the location being a stronghold,
<Gnomey> which wold provide a reason for friendly NPCs to be living in a stronghold.
<Gnomey> Thereby dodging the convention and giving context to the other interiors.
<RyanS1> yeah, that seems good
[...]
<RyanS1> Gnomey, any more thoughts on the passes?
<Gnomey154> Hm.
<Gnomey154> You missed the bit about Septim's Gate Pass, right?
<RyanS1> probably, if that happened in the last half hour
<Gnomey154> It happened before you popped in, I think.
<RyanS1> oh, that makes sense
<Gnomey154> Using Swiftoak's map for convenience: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/yov ... D.jpg?dl=0
<Gnomey154> Septim's Gate Pass is not marked as a location, but the road is still there;
<Gnomey154> it is west of Kartur
<RyanS1> yes, I see
<Gnomey154> I thought that would lead it to northern Cyrodiil, which is cold and empty.
<Gnomey154> I was not quite right;
<Gnomey154> it leads to Cheydinhal, just like Shadowgate Pass.
<Gnomey154> The thing is that Shadowgate pass is very well sourced and much more important,
<Gnomey154> while Septim's Gate Pass -- simply put -- isn't. But they both look nice.
<RyanS1> SGP looks a bit better IMO, too
<Gnomey154> Shadowgate Pass is actually a legion fort, going by the Alpha.
<Gnomey154> My suggestion is simply: move Septim's Gate to Shadowgate,
<Gnomey154> move shadowgate to wherever we need a legion fort.
<Gnomey154> The moves should be really easy to do;
<Gnomey154> Shadowmoth (as I think it's called in the alpha) is on flat terrain.
<Gnomey154> The old Septim's Gate location can either become a hidden, obscure, unguarded pass, an old caved-in pass, or the mountainside.
<Gnomey154> Or the site of a dungeon that is up against the mountainside.
<RyanS1> that sounds interesting
<Gnomey154> Then the rest of the passes are fine as is.
<Gnomey154> (The name Septim's Gate can be used for the Narsis pass; I don't think we have a name for it yet)
<RyanS1> sounds great
<RyanS1> It seems the new pass would be very close to Black Marsh, but it would still work better as Septim's Gate.
<Gnomey154> http://i.imgur.com/QcDtKz7.png?1
<Gnomey154> That's my suggestion for Veloth'
<Gnomey154> s route.
<Gnomey154> New pass?
<Gnomey154> I only advocated removing two, not adding one.
<Gnomey154> The one near Narsis is supposed to be there, and is really important.
<RyanS1> the bottom one on Swiftoak's map
<RyanS1> don't worry, not a new one
<Gnomey154> Yeah, it's been there from the start, we just never got around to making it,
<Gnomey154> because it's map 6
<Gnomey154> It's the reason Narsis exists, basically.
<Gnomey154> And via circular logic, it exists because Narsis does.
<Gnomey154> On the Cyrodiil side, it isn't near black marsh,
<Gnomey154> and it isn't especially close on the Morrowind side either.
<Gnomey154> http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/cyrodiil_ingame.jpg
<Gnomey154> Using the Cyrodiil map, it would come out east of Silverfish River's source;
<Gnomey154> in other words, it could connect to Niben's Bay, and from there pretty much everywhere important.
<Gnomey154> It didn't exist in Oblivion because Oblivion.
<RyanS1> lol
[...]
<Gnomey154> Do you know if Province: Cyrodiil has a map?
<RyanS1> they have lots of maps, I think
<Gnomey154> Of their side of the Velothis, that is.
<Gnomey154> Ooh, now I see.
<RyanS1> probably
<RyanS1> they just abandoned their site, moved to PT
<Gnomey154> http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/Infragris/media/Map_Cyrodiil_WIP_10_zps4f9e6f4d.jpg.html
<Gnomey154> This is one map, anyway.
<Gnomey154> It shows two passes, though the first is a little high;
<Gnomey154> more Septim's Gate than Shadowgate...
<Gnomey154> The bottom one is important, though.
<Gnomey154> And I don't think they'd be working on that region anytime soon anyway, so it should be fine.
<RyanS1> I believe much of that map is based off of Oblivion, anyways.
<Gnomey154> Yeah, but they took the trouble to add the lower pass,
<RyanS1> So they shouldn't have a problem moving things around
<Gnomey154> where before there was fertile nothing.[/spoiler]

Currently, we have six passes: three into Cyrodiil, three into Skyrim. As shown in the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/mapbigtamriel1.1.jpg]Arena[/url] map, and maps derived from the Arena map. Bethesda's conceptual map of Morrowind -- from when they were still planning to make the whole province -- [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/concept_morrowind.jpg]had four[/url]. Skyrim contented itself with two passes in its respective game and Oblivion with none, which is why we don't like to speak about Oblivion.

Our passes, all located in the Arena locations, are:
Dunmereth/Dunmeth Pass: as seen [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/SkyrimMap2.jpg]here[/url], and perhaps the best sourced.
Rift Pass: is there a reference for this preceding Skyrim? Skyrim puts Rift Pass further south, at the location of:
Silgrod Pass: the name is an homage to Silgrod, the former name of Kogotél, which was our alteration of Silgrad, so altered to avoid stepping on the toes of the Silgrad Tower mod. It is precisely across from where Riften has always been. I'd just call it Rift Pass.
Septim's Gate Pass: I couldn't find a source for the name, and the location would connect it with Cheydinhal, just like:
Shadowgate Pass: mentioned in at least [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-morrowind]two[/url] [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-skeleton-man]places[/url], and linking Cheydinhal with Kragenmar. This one is important.
Narsis Pass: do we have a name for this? I'm not sure if a pass is mentioned anywhere, but its existence is pretty important to provide context to Narsis. Looking at the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/cyrodiil_ingame.jpg]official Cyrodiil map[/url], the pass would emerge a short distance from the source of Silverfish River, from where goods could flow into the Niben Bay to virtually everywhere of importance. I think P:C is planning for a proper road to this pass as well, which is why we sometimes like to talk about Province: Cyrodiil. As a note, this one hasn't been made, though there's a large Imperial fortress nearby in the Map6 heightmap which should probably not be there, whatever we end up doing with it.

Of those passes, I'm not going to talk about Dunmereth, Silgrod (aside from that it should be renamed to Rift) or Narsis pass, which I think are fine as is. (Or as planned, in the case of Narsis).
Septim's Gate pass and Rift pass are the main ones I'm going to be talking about, because, to be brief, I think they should go.
Both of those passes are unimportant in the Arena map, and arguably less important in ours, as we've put them effectively in the middle of nowhere for no better reason than that Arena said so. They have no real context that could explain their presence outside of that; current plans for Rift Pass state it marks where Veloth crossed the Velothis, but Shadowgate would seem a [url=http://i.imgur.com/QcDtKz7.png]more sensible[/url] choice for that, and that fails to adequately explain why it is in the stronghold tileset rather than the Redoran tileset, as convention would generally dictate. Septim's Gate involves a lot of trekking through mountains and canyons to reach anywhere of note.

A solution for the latter comes in the form of Shadowmoth Legion Fort, as Shadowgate Pass is rendered in-game. It is a fort, naturally, located on flat terrain, and it could easily be moved elsewhere were it would be more useful. That would clear up space for Septim's Gate Pass, which could be squeezed in -- perhaps just west of the fort's current location where the road narrows -- to be renamed Shadowgate Pass. The name 'Septim's Gate' could then be used for the Narsis pass.
The Septim's-Gate-Pass-shaped hole could then be turned into mountainside, or an ancient caved in pass, or a secret Legion pass, or a dungeon, or a hanging valley, or anything that isn't a functioning pass.

The current Rift Pass presents more of a problem; its interiors have been made, and I believe some people are rather attached to it. However, one of the fundamental parts of its identity is what bothers me most about it: it is a functioning, Redoran-controlled pass in the stronghold tileset. Just like Bis Andaryon was a functioning, Indoril-controlled stronghold. Both have their charms, but I don't think either really work in the long-run.
Aside from that, I'm not really sold on the idea of House Redoran controlling a pass.
So if the pass is removed, can any of the work be salvaged?
If people are especially attached to the exterior work, the pass could just be closed up west of it, making at a Dunmer stronghold built into a nook in the Velothis. To be perfectly frank, I'm not.
Perhaps the pass was in use way off in the first era but, for whatever reason, fell into disuse in the millennia that followed, but for that concept it would have to be a ruin, which would be problematic for the interiors.
But we have hardly oversaturated the mainland with strongholds; I think we've made far too few. I think we should simply take the interiors of our current Rift Pass and incorporate them into a more conventional stronghold, complete with shrine, and give the shrine a different story which confers significance to the use of the stronghold set. (For example it was the stronghold of St. Felms' clan, of which he was the leader).

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Province Cyrodiil intends to include the city of Mir Corrup, mentioned in a few books but not present in Oblivion, somewhere around the source of the Silverfish and close to the current site of Septim's Gate Pass. Not a lot of planning has gone into it because Nibenay is a long way off, but I believe this is the current line of thinking:

But a lot has changed since Julia Scalabia became the Countess of the city 40 years ago, succeeding to his father. Countess Julia realized the city needed to change the focus of its economy. Its dependency on the seasonal coming of nobles had only brought the city to its downfall and current slumber. She realized that the city barely took advantage of its location near the border with both Morrowind and Argonia. To her, it made no sense that 95% of Cyrodiil's trade with Morrowind was done via Cheydinhal, when Narsis, probably the most important trading center of the Eastern Provinces, was right on the other side of the border.

Since then, the city made a big investment in improving and securing the main roads of the County and it's starting to pay off. As of 3E427 the city holds about 25% of the trade with Morrowind and 15% of the trade with Argonia. While it still remains the smallest city in Cyrodiil, it is today a sustainable trading city and its population is growing slowly but steadily. The influx of travelers also had a positive effect on the bathhouses that regained some of its former popularity, but nowadays they're not an exclusive pleasure as they once were and even middle class traders can sometimes be seen in the famous hot baths. Some nobles still own exquisite manors in the city or in the jungle nearby and frequent the bathhouses, but most of what appealed to them was lost when the city became commerce-focused.

[Gnomey]

You appear to be talking about the pass leading out of Narsis. That is not actually TR's current location for Septim's Gate Pass; in our alpha, a pass northeast of Cheydinhal is called that. In my above post I make a case for using the name for the Narsis pass instead, which would then line up with where P:C plans to put the pass.

As for the background for Mir Corrup, I have no problem with the pass to Narsis having long been left unused in favour of Shadowgate, but I do think it should be a very old and formerly very important pass.
Before Tiber Septim clamped down on the flow of slaves between provinces, the Septim's Gate Pass was probably more heavily used than Shadowgate; vast numbers of Khajiiti slaves taken from their homeland in Elsweyr would have been sold by their -- often Nibenese -- captors to the Hlaalu at Narsis, its pass providing the most direct route from Elsweyr to Morrowind. With the slave trade came other goods, and due to Narsis' position on the Thirr those goods could easily be disseminated across Morrowind. This is what spurred Narsis to grow to the size and wield the influence it does.
Roughly with the signing of the Armistice, a shift occurred. Focus was shifted from Elsweyr -- from which slaves could no longer be conveniently secured -- directly to the Imperial capital. Cheydinhal, Shadowgate and Kragenmar provided a more direct route to the capital, and as such Imperial merchants, and then Dunmer merchants, began using it instead. House Hlaalu, however, had already managed to secure Kragenmar by then. Narsis had grown large enough so as not to be phased by the loss of one sources of income; all of the money of the emerging merchant House was flowing to it. It essentially became a Hlaalu stronghold, and perhaps in some ways less approachable, if only under an amiable surface. Kragenmar, conversely, received an influx of outlanders, and comes off as rather less intimidating.
The rest would then be as your wrote; Countess Julia saw potential in Septim's Gate Pass and invested in its (re-)growth, and has been making some progress on that front.

[Nomadic1]

Attaching a map of those passes would make things a little easier to follow...

[Biboran]

It will be cool if your team work on cheydinhal together. There are many Dunmers and the Count feom house Hlaalu. Perhaps there could be interesting Hlaalu quest lines

[Osidian]

Attaching a map of those passes would make things a little easier to follow...

There's a map in the IRC discussion copied to the first post. Here. Current Septim's Gate is on that path west of Kartur.

[Osidian]

I don't think 3 passes to Cyrodiil is problematic in itself because that border is pretty big. But those have to be useful and make sense and current Septim's Gate Pass is just in the middle of nowhere.

I'm all for putting it near Kragenmar, if the Shadowmoth can be all reused elsewhere.

[spoiler]I'm also kind of biased since I made SGP's interior (and fuck, I spent a lot of hours on that one) and to see it placed in a better location would be nice. [/spoiler]

[Gnomey]

Sorry about not posting the maps; aside from Swiftoak's map linked above, which does not accurately reflect the current status of the project, it's hard to find maps of Morrowind with location names filled in. I have found [url=http://images.uesp.net/8/8b/TR3-map-Locations.jpg]one[/url], though, on UESP, for which I'll have to thank klep. It uses the most recent createmaps, which -- though slightly outdated -- is completely accurate as far as the passes are concerned.

[Theminimanx]

As this is kind of my job, I threw together a quick map of the current border passes and a rough guesstimate of where the Narsis pass will be. I might mess around with fonts later to make them more readable.

Warning: huge image.
[spoiler][img]http://i.imgur.com/ZQlSn1d.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

[RyanS]

On topic of the current Shadowmoth Legion Fort, the place could likely be reused around the Othreleth region. As of recent plans, the whole area seems a bit lacking of Imperial influence, even when Cyrodiil is right next door.

(In fact, all of the northern Hlaalu territory seems to lack Imperial influence)

On the topic of Rift Pass, I was thinking its interiors could be reused in a stronghold that is near, but not quite at the pass where Veloth entered Morrowind, as seen on [url=http://i.imgur.com/QcDtKz7.png?1]this map.[/url] That way we could keep the original pilgrimage idea.

[Marandahir]

Looking at that map, it really doesn't make sense to have the Rift Pass up near Soluthis, but rather put it by Kogotél like in Swiftcloak's inaccurate but still-useful map.

I was under the assumption that the pass-gate in The Rift, near Fort Dawnguard, was really supposed to be the Rift Pass. I understand that Silgrod Pass has history as well, with Silgrad Tower and all, but we're moving away from the Silgrad name, in favour of Kogotél… Silgrod Pass just sounds really silly, too, in my honest opinion.

[Nomadic1]

What about the Skyrim project - do they have any plans involving the middle (Stronghold set) Skyrim pass? The pass seems entirely superfluous and the stronghold design is kinda awkward. I'd be happy to see it go.

The pass west of Kartur I'm less sure of removing. There certainly is a lot of stuff on the Cyrodiil side of the border up there, and roads are going to be close on both sides of the border. Connecting them under that context seems a no brainer if the ability to play all the province mods at once is a consideration. From a trade POV the pass itself wouldn't see a lot of use as it leads into the labyrinthine Roth Roryn. From a historical POV the Imperials may have avoided that pass and attacked through the Shadowgate in their wars. It might work from a story POV of conflict between Redoran and Hlaalu - Redorans can trade through that pass with Cyrodiil, bypassing the Hlaalu at Kragenmar. Of course the Hlaalus have huge influence in Cheydinhal on the other side so it wouldn't amount to much. It may serve a role later for Redoran quests based at Kartur.

[Osidian]

The pass west of Kartur I'm less sure of removing. There certainly is a lot of stuff on the Cyrodiil side of the border up there, and roads are going to be close on both sides of the border. Connecting them under that context seems a no brainer if the ability to play all the province mods at once is a consideration. From a trade POV the pass itself wouldn't see a lot of use as it leads into the labyrinthine Roth Roryn. From a historical POV the Imperials may have avoided that pass and attacked through the Shadowgate in their wars. It might work from a story POV of conflict between Redoran and Hlaalu - Redorans can trade through that pass with Cyrodiil, bypassing the Hlaalu at Kragenmar. Of course the Hlaalus have huge influence in Cheydinhal on the other side so it wouldn't amount to much. It may serve a role later for Redoran quests based at Kartur.

It could just be a very dangerous and usually avoided unfortified pass. On the eastern side it leads to Roth Roryn, a labyrinth with lots of bandits. On the western side it may lead to the confluence of the Jerral Mountains and the Velothi mountains, a very craggy, snowy terrain, with a path that is mostly a mountain trail on dangerous cliffs for miles. The pass itself is narrow and rock slides are frequent, making it hard for traders to use.

Ingame the path may be blocked because of a rock slide until P:Cyrodiil joins the land (like we block the other passes with gates). We should put something there to reward the player and make it interesting, though. It would be a good place for a high level dungeon.

[Ironed Maidens]

I don't see an issue with an 'off the beaten path' pass, one that's kind of avoided and dangerous. It could be a good place to have higher leveled enemies as well; and it adds a bit of spookiness/unknown to the game.

[Gnomey]

I'm very much in favour of Osidian's way of handling things. The important point, for me, is that the pass should not be fortified, (unless it's controlled by bandit or we go the secret-Legion-pass route), and that, without the fortification, the player should obviously be blocked from walking through it until P:C is available to fill out the other end of the pass. Having the pass exist, but be unfortified and caved-in sounds like a good solution to me.

[Infragris]

A small suggestion from the P:C side of things: I think it would make most sense to have the discussed pass as an ill-known route for smuggling and refugee transport, since both other passes are controlled by the Legion. Just an immersive way for, say, a player with a high bounty to cross the border unseen. I was hoping to feature lots of Dunmer political and religious exiles in Cheydinhal, when we get around to it.

[sasquatch2o]

Madly dysfunctional, yet so typical.

[Ironed Maidens]

Madly dysfunctional, yet so typical.

It is what it is, and it's worked so far.

[klep]

I'm slowly starting on writing a bit of a Hlaalu summary/planning and am slightly confused here. Is Shadowmoth Legion Fort (if that still is its name) a pass to Cyrodiil? What is its function and who owns it?

EDIT: The more I look at different maps, the more confused I get. Which passes are we actually using and where are they?

[Gnomey]

As of this thread, as near as I can tell, (as usual, the forum is bad for getting a clear consensus), the plan is for there to be two passes between Skyrim and Morrowind and two passes between Cyrodiil and Morrowind. This map is probably the best one to go off of for now. I have no idea how the border between Black Marsh and Morrowind will look, but probably swampy.

Of the passes to Skyrim, Dunmereth Pass is near the northern coast and Rift Pass (currently called Silgrod Pass) is just west of Kogotél. A third pass, current Rift Pass, exists between them, but will get removed, with its interiors used elsewhere.
These passes are all in Redoran territory, so you probably don't care anyway.

Of the passes to Cyrodiil, Shadowgate Pass (currently Shadowmoth Legion Fort, but the fort will be moved elsewhere. This may get dedefecated because the name 'Shadowgate' isn't brilliant) is just west of Kragenmoor while Septim's Gate Pass is just west of Narsis. Both are in Hlaalu territory but, as with all passes, will be Imperial locations. A third pass, current Septim's Gate Pass, exists west of Kartúr, but will get removed, or at any rate will not be a proper pass, and can therefore be ignored. It's in Redoran lands, but only just.

[klep]

That's helpful, thanks.

[sasquatch2o]

If you find the idea of another imperial held pass offensive, just reduce the bridge and entrance. Add a ruined facade and make this a little known pass for traders adventures and cutthroats built out of the ruins of an old nordic fortress or tomb or monastery of some kind. Simply removing it on what seems like a whim, entirely, after the exterior and most interiors have already been completed as requested by the leads who designed this thing, seems really unsympathetically poor. The pass was in original maps which makes removing the pass even less desirable. If I hadn't been active for a couple years id assume this was a bad joke.

[Gnomey]

Ah, I forgot to mention that the exterior and interior of the current Septim's Gate Pass will be moved to the location of Shadowgate Pass to replace the legion fort which, as I said, will itself be moved elsewhere. The only work that will be lost is the exterior of the current Rift Pass, which some people found issue with anyway. (It's a Dunmer Stronghold tileset pass facing the wrong way, with its strongest defenses facing Morrowind). Even then, if enough people are strongly in favour of keeping the Rift Pass exterior work, it could probably be kept in some form, just not as an active pass.

[EJRS]

I am personally entirely against scrapping Rift Pass. It has an outstanding and creative exterior, that really is a fresh take on the stronghold-set. Adressing the issue of its functionality as a fort: all forts aren't built as strongholds meant to withstand the charge of an army. You couldn't march an army through that narrow pass, anyway. However, you'd hardly simply leave such a pass open - wars and conflicts aren't all about large-scale movements of troops and big engagements. Wether the location is strategic or not is something of a non-point: if there is a pass through the mountains along your border, you'd be a fool not to fortify it, if only in a small way.

In any case, the basic design of Dunmer strongholds kind of suck anyway if it came to larger engagements. So the point of strategic irrelevance that has been raised is something I find kind of pulled from the air, or not very well thought through. There are a lot of more relevant things to redo than an almost fully completed, perfectly fine location: let's focus on those things instead.

[Theminimanx]

I really like the look of Rift Pass too, and I'd like to see it kept in some way. It just does not work in its current location/orientation.

[Rats]

Don't have the time for a lenghty response but I think the Rift Pass shouldn't be deleted. Rather, we should make it a long-abandoned border stronghold and indeed the place where the Velothi crossed the mountains. Could play a part in the Redoran questline, where the house tries to reclaim it.