"Swamp Spider" ideas

Glisp · Post by **Glisp** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:19 am

So as I'm sure some of you know, there's a broken model in the TR_Data.BSA known as "Swamp Spider". Seneca37 has talked about fixing it up and stuff.

Well here's my ideas for it in terms of lore and abilities.
Name: Arachniphobos
Description:
"These Giant spiders are feared by any venturing into the Argon Jungle and for good reason. A bite from its fangs will leave the victim in heavy pain, nearly blind, and paralyzed with fear. It's best to either run or fight it from a distance if one is encountered."

So basically, these spiders will have an on touch spell that inflicts Damage Health, Demoralize Humanoid/Animal, Poison, Paralysis, and blindness. To keep it from becoming OP, it will be in higher level lists so that it's only encountered by more experienced players. (TR could always use more higher level content here and there.)

As the name implies, its theme has to do with inducing fear on its prey.

klep · Post by **klep** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:57 am

I don't know the model and have no idea what it looks like or what its purpose is, but in any case I'm not very fond of the name. It feels extremely genericmmorpgish. Also do I think the stats are overkill. Yes, I do agree that TR can use higher level and more difficult content/areas, but I don't think we should stick it all into one creature. Attachment A in the (outdated) [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24291]Master Plan Foundation[/url] does show the Argon Jungle area to be a high level area, which seems very plausible to me. However, I do think a combination of different types of creatures (with different types of damage and spells) would do it more justice than filling it with OP creatures. That being said, I'm not a big fan of arachnid creatures in TR at all--they simply are too common in video games.

Maybe not entirely on topic, but still interesting to check out in relation to monster levels etc. if you haven't already: [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23780]Monster balancing and Heartland[/url]

sirrah · Post by **sirrah** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:00 pm

Here's a pic of the swamp spider: [url]http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/g/scrcaps/22/Swampspider.jpg[/url]
I'm not sure what the technical problems with the model are, but it would be better to ditch it entirely, honestly; it's just a boring design.

I'm also wary of spider enemies in RPGs in general, it does tend to be overplayed and dull; but, on-paper, Morrowind's 'alien insect ecosystem' sounds pretty generic as well, so I think a properly-weirdified arachnoid could fit reasonably well. The Argonian swamp region is also exactly where we should be pushing away from Morrowind's stylistic norm, since it's not traditionally Dunmeri territory; an alien world within an alien world, and one that should be actively resisting its occupants.(As an aside, does TR have a stance on how Morrowind's southern border was changed by the Arnesian war? Where, precisely, is "Arnesia"?)

Thematically, I think a spider-like enemy could be made to suit an area that is inhospitable even to the Dunmer; for thousands of years, the Dres have been using the northern Black Marsh as a hunting-grounds for slaves, but following the Arnesian war, they've formally claimed control of part of the region. This is out-of-element for the Dres, and the environment should reflect this tension; the Dres have become stewards over a land they cannot tame. It could be interesting to have Dres efforts to introduce Kwama mining to prospective regions of cleared jungle be waylaid by amphibious frog-spiders rising from the swamp each night and eating all the foragers.

Glisp · Post by **Glisp** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:48 pm

The Technical problems with the Swamp Spider involve that the model crashes the game. Seneca37's working on fixing this, if only for the sake of having it as a resource for modders to use as they want.

I do think a spider enemy could work, but after seeing what you guys have said, I do think it could use a different design. Also, "Arachniphobos" was just an idea. If you guys can come up with something better, feel free.

The idea was to play on the word "Arachniphobia" and the greek god of fear "Phobos". But if a better name can be thought, I'd love to hear it. I'm not saying that as a dick either. I honestly couldn't have thought of anything better and would love to hear other people's ideas.

DestinedToDie · Post by **DestinedToDie** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:35 pm

Swampster.

Swamp crawler.

Six-foot.

Acyclopse.

Itchy.

Swampfang.

Swampsicle (native Dumner delicacy, usually eaten raw and alive).

10Kaziem · Post by **10Kaziem** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:33 am

My two cents: please do not make giant spiders in this game. They're cliched, and also spiders suck.

No spiders.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:55 am

Hard to argue with that logic. Spiders [url=http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/image/68269796587]may have a place[/url] in Morrowind, (though the 'spider' pictured only has six legs), and I certainly could see them working in shrines of Mephala, but for the most part I don't think spiders for the sake of spiders would be worth it, and that some effort will be needed to make them fit the world of Morrowind and be worthwhile additions. Doubly so if we want them on the southern border, where I think creatures should, if anything, be stranger and deadlier than creatures found in the rest of Morrowind, not more mundane.

As for the effect, I'd replace paralysis with something at least marginally less annoying, like drain speed/agility/both or burden (so stronger players will be able to move despite the 'poison'), but otherwise think it's the sort of effect I'd expect to see from a creature of Black Marsh, or even creatures elsewhere in Morrowind.

(I've actually already written most of this on IRC, but hadn't remembered to post it here for posterity's sake).

10Kaziem · Post by **10Kaziem** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:37 am

I encounter too many frightening giant spiders in real life to want to encounter them in Morrowind. That is just way too real for fun.

I think that spider-like creatures would have a great place in Morrowind, because they can be weird and alien and foreign, but don't make stock-standard spiders. Like, not the ones I find in my canoe.

Also, I don't like spiders. Just my several pounds of change.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:01 am

Ah, right, I didn't consider the arachnophobia/general dislike of spiders angle. Yeah, certainly as far as that's concerned I don't think adding spiders would be worthwhile.

sirrah · Post by **sirrah** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:54 am

The [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/beast_battlespire_spiderdaedra.jpg]spider daedra[/url] in Battlespire also only had six "limbs" (though two of them are partly human), and the "Spider Centurion". The fourth pair of legs on [url=http://static-5.nexusmods.com/15/mods/100/images/42130-3-1336872253.jpg]Mudcrabs[/url] are pretty obscured, too. I always privately inferred meaning from this trend, but [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/beast_Dagger_Spider.gif]Daggerfall[/url] had 8-legged spiders (that the current swamp spider seems to have been based on) and obviously the later Elder Scrolls games have had plenty of boring spiders.

On the topic of defamiliarising spiders:
unusual spider heads: [url]http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/Erigonidae/stange-heads.jpg[/url]

sea spiders: [url]http://portphillipmarinelife.net.au/images/species/speciesHero_506257.jpeg[/url]
[url]http://people.whitman.edu/~yancey/seaspider.JPG[/url]
[url]http://www.apic.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/FI39d1.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.ancientbeasts.ru/dictionary/02/01picnogonida482.jpg[/url]

diving-bell spider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjFew5Lk2r4

"decoy" spiders that build larger mimicries of themselves to ward off predators: [url]http://www.wired.com/2014/01/more-decoy-spiders-philippines[/url]
[url]http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2012/12/Spider1.jpg[/url] (the vaguely-human appearance of some of the decoys is pretty cool)

I quite like the bizarre abdomens on the first two in this list: [url]http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/6-terrifying-spiders-that-will-haunt-your-dreams/[/url]

camel spiders: [url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5wPdoIEFakI/VG9pDDNpilI/AAAAAAAAG4U/bHqnM1Qiepo/s1600/solifugeAZ4a.jpg[/url]
[url]http://bugguide.net/images/raw/IQJ/RLQ/IQJRLQ1RMQ1RMQ1RG0FQ3K9R409RI0OQ50DQ3KOQG0TQJKBRZQ1RYKBRX0URFKOQ3KTQE0FRRQ3R7Q.jpg[/url] (I like the 'beak')

"Pike Slender Jumper": [url]http://bugguide.net/images/cache/RZU/LJL/RZULJLNLQZJZGRRHSRDZMRJZXRULMRCZIRKHMROZFL2LYL1L4R1LQZHH2RFZJLDZKRDZ4RHH4RVLIZLHGRVL0Z2LXR.jpg[/url]

Mythic representations of spiders (Japan):
Tsuchigumo: [url]http://i.stack.imgur.com/a8eCz.jpg[/url]
Ushi-Oni (crab/spider/cow demon) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... shioni.jpg
(both of these also seem six-legged, interestingly)

As a moderate arachnophobe (googling "unusual spiders" hasn't been an entirely painless experience) I would like to say I completely balk at the idea of spiders being excluded based on phobia. I definitely don't want to see dull fantasy-tarantulas, though.

edit: also, if TR does go the route of spider-themed enemies, I think it would be preferable for them to be non-web-building and thus not associated with Mephala. (Do the Dunmer even explicitly associate Mephala with spiders? Morrowind definitely down-plays the association compared to other games)

edit edit:
I thought I might as well post a couple of the ideas I was mulling over for the swamp-spider. I'm no great artist, so bear with me here:
[url]http://i.imgur.com/AgFg6fq.png[/url] (still a bit arachnoid for my liking)
[url]http://i.imgur.com/BJdQe8G.png[/url] (this one is kwama-esque)

Mainly, I like the idea of camouflaging behavioural adaptations for a (Hist-nature?) spider on the border of Dunmer territory; maybe invading Skyrender hives would be more appropriate?

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:23 pm

Yeah, if we do add spiders that's certainly the right direction. I especially like your designs; the first one even reminds me of an old [url=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wrongfoot/media/concept/hamfel_creature2.jpg.html]Hammerfell concept creature[/url].

10Kaziem · Post by **10Kaziem** » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:43 pm

I second that. It's not that we shouldn't have spiders, it's that they shouldn't be boring normal spiders. I like the weird spiders you linked to, and your little spider concepts.

DestinedToDie · Post by **DestinedToDie** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:13 am

Glisp wrote:The Technical problems with the Swamp Spider involve that the model crashes the game.

Doesn't crash for me at all.

That being said, this spider is a piece of art. Whoever the creator was, he took parts of the dreugh model and 1 part of the kwama to form a spider. Then applied what looks like nix hound texture on it. So it's a kwama nix dreugh.

Also it has no skeleton. Well, it does have 1 bone, but the mesh is rigged... through the mesh itself?

sirrah · Post by **sirrah** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:11 pm

DestinedToDie wrote:
Glisp wrote:The Technical problems with the Swamp Spider involve that the model crashes the game.
Doesn't crash for me at all.

That being said, this spider is a piece of art. Whoever the creator was, he took parts of the dreugh model and 1 part of the kwama to form a spider. Then applied what looks like nix hound texture on it. So it's a kwama nix dreugh.

Also it has no skeleton. Well, it does have 1 bone, but the mesh is rigged... through the mesh itself?

Hmm.. it crashes for me with the message "Step box height of 0 on TR_swampspider" whenever I enter a cell containing the spider. It seems to work under OpenMW, though.

The texture is "tx_BC_fern_pod.tga" for the body and "tx_gem_ruby_01.tga" for the eyes, according to NifSkope. So, kwama-fern-ruby-dreugh. Truly bizarre.

Gnomey wrote:Yeah, if we do add spiders that's certainly the right direction. I especially like your designs; the first one even reminds me of an old [url=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wrongfoot/media/concept/hamfel_creature2.jpg.html]Hammerfell concept creature[/url].

Ah! I remember this concept! I haven't seen it in years, though. I wonder if it was floating around the corners of my mind... it's a real shame there isn't an active Hammerfell mod to inherit all the designs TR did (though I'm glad effort isn't being spent on Oblivion, all things considered.)

DestinedToDie · Post by **DestinedToDie** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:51 pm

I never tried it with vanilla.

But considering that TR seems to be moving over to require OpenMW, maybe the smart move is not to fix it since it works just fine there.

Also, because it seems quite functional, why not have it as a pet for some random telvanni, if you aren't going to use it in the swamp?

Doom_Carrot · Post by **Doom_Carrot** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:46 pm

From a total newcomers perspective, giant spiders sounds about as generic as some of the things I rolled my eyes to in Oblivion. **cough cough unicorns cough cough**

EJRS · Post by **EJRS** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:28 pm

I'd vote against spiders, as well. Considering that rats and even normal skeletons were only added to the game in a later stage of development in order to provide the more close-minded crowd with some familiarity (let's see if I can dig up the source on that again), I think that basically any real-life or generic fantasy creature should be left out.

Glisp · Post by **Glisp** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:16 am

Yes and no. Rats were kind of a staple in the TES series before then. Hell, they appear in just about every game. Skeletons are well.... just skeletons. Bloodmoon has wolves and bears which are also a little generic, but it didn't stop Bethesda from adding them.

I think a giant spider could work, but the Swamp Spider's design is obviously a no go. It needs to be something that stands out and looks unique. Maybe based off of an obscure species of spider. Keep in mind that the Argon Jungle is a jungle. Jungles tend to have all sorts of weird species evolve in them.

Though, I guess the main priority is to get the Swamp Spider working for modders' resource reasons. It may not be useful to us, but it might be useful to someone else.

Edit: Oh it looks like Sirrah already brought that up. Yeah, I'm all for a new design. Though it seems a little sad to waste said model.

Also, if you're a member of the team, you may have a version of the BSA with it fixed. iirc Seneca said he was gonna fix the model.

Edit: Holy shit guys this spider Sirrah linked to looks awesome:

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/quickfix/1/9/0/144190.jpg?v=1
from this page http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/6-terrifying-spiders-that-will-haunt-your-dreams/

It's the horned spider. It also kind of fits the fear theme I was talking about earlier in the thread.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:10 pm

After the revelation of the spider being a kwama-fern-ruby-dreugh, I'm starting to seriously think that we should add it as a unique construct of a Telvanni mage. It looks mundane, but its origin is anything but.

klep · Post by **klep** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:26 pm

Whatever it really is, it looks like a typical MMO spider to me. I still don't like the idea of having (typical) spider creatures in TR. However, some of the extremely alien types which have been mentioned in this thread could do the trick without triggering that "Oh, it's a spider.. How original.."

Biboran · Post by **Biboran** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:24 pm

Spider from picture http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/g/scrcaps/22/Swampspider.jpg lools like spider from daggerfall to me

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:29 pm

[url=http://www.uesp.net/w/images/8/87/DaggerfallSpider.gif]Ind[/url][url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/g/scrcaps/22/Swampspider.jpg]eed.[/url]

EJRS · Post by **EJRS** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:07 pm

Biboran wrote:Spider from picture lools like spider from daggerfall to me

I don't think this justifies its inclusion in TR in any way. Daggerfall is a very different thing than TES3, as different from it as Oblivion or Skyrim, leaning way more towards generic 90s fantasy. If you look at the creatures from vanilla Morrowind, there are very few generic fantasy or real-life creatures (the rat and the regular skeleton, basically - which, as I wrote, has been stated by developers to have been a late addition for the sake of familiarity). Morrowind is supposed to be an alien region of an alien world.

I agree with what Klep wrote, and the spider glisp linked to in her/his last post looks fantastic. But if we'd be going for a very alien-looking, atypical spider, why would we want to call it a spider at all?

Edit: previously mentioned quote in full, for those interested:
[spoiler]"The removal of mithril and adamantium from Morrowind was part of the grand sweep to make the series less classically D&D RPG. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s the reason Morrowind has all kinds of insect creatures and glass armor. Originally, it wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t supposed to have skeletons or rats, either - mudcrabs were actually invented to replace rats as an early level creature. Obviously, they backpedaled on some of that."[/spoiler]

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:52 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure if Biboran mentioned it as a justification for including the swamp spider. It's just like early TR, though, to try and pad Morrowind's bestiary by looking at other TES games. I think most are agreed that, as far as 'generic' creatures populating Morrowind are concerned, if we want spiders we should go down the route of sirrah's post and give them a really alien appearance.

Thanks for linking that quote, by the way; I've seen it mentioned before, but don't think I've ever seen the direct quote.

Glisp · Post by **Glisp** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:01 pm

I find it kinda funny that they brought Mithril armor back in Oblivion despite what they said in the quote above. sorry, a little off topic.

Yeah, for the fear themed idea I had, the horned spider looks like a likely candidate. Though I guess we could pick our favorites and have a poll or something.

Biboran · Post by **Biboran** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:11 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure if Biboran mentioned it as a justification for including the swamp spider

I wrote it just because it looks like Daggerfall spider
I did not mean anything.

Jungle should have their beings, but it does not necessarily do spiders.

Maybe something like this? [url]http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/6/66/MirelurkCA.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100609162258[/url]

I find it kinda funny that they brought Mithril armor back in Oblivion despite what they said in the quote above. sorry, a little off topic.

For me Oblivion is very Generic game. Check out plans for province in "Province Cyrodiil": for me this is how it should look like without generic.

klep · Post by **klep** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:42 pm

Biboran wrote:
Maybe something like this? [url]http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/6/66/MirelurkCA.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100609162258[/url]

That thing looks badass.