Establishing Background Lore

[Yeti]

What does each Great House use slaves for?

Obviously the Redoran are not going to use them in the same way as the Dres, for instance.

[Sload]

Since this is sort of the thread for miscellany, I thought it would be a good place to post this -

Temples are more than just buildings. They are holy spaces, and they should be positioned consistently to demonstrate the religious significance of how they are constructed. this is how it was done in TESIII.

The key points are:

• Every temple that is not a part of a larger religious structure must be a velothi domed building with the half-circle archway in front of the entrance. This is consistent in TESIII and should be consistent in TR. This is how temples are designed and built.
• These temples should tend to be on the peripheries of towns. This is the case in Balmora, Ald'ruhn and Suran (it is not the case in Gnisis & Vos). If there is a good reason for the temple to be central (such as in Andothren), it should at least be somehow set-apart from the rest of the town.

[Gnomey]

From an IRC conversation I had just now with klep, complete with orthographical errors:

[spoiler]<klep> Hi Gnomey, I just read your piece on the IAS
<Gnomey> Yeah, we posted at pretty much the same time.
<klep> I figured. How do you like the idea of Imperial interest in the races of Akavir
<Gnomey> Hm.
<Gnomey> There are a few difficulties there, I'm afraid;
<Gnomey> not least being that we'd have to model anything related to the Akaviri.
<Gnomey> However, they're also very mysterious.
<klep> I see it as an opportunity to give the IAS a different twist
<Gnomey> For instance, though it's unlikely, one theory on Kamal that I personally like is that they're actually proto-Nords from Atmora.
<Gnomey> In other words, the 'northern AKavir' is actually Atmora.
<klep> Maybe unlikely but a very satisfying idea
<Gnomey> I'm also not sure whether they ever left permanent signs behind on Morrowind;
<Gnomey> what they're best known for is being drowned.
<Gnomey> It is an idea,
<Gnomey> I'm just not sure we'd be able to do it justice.
<klep> Not being sure is a reason for people to want to find out
<Gnomey> That's true too.
<Gnomey> Well, it's certainly worth thinking about.
<klep> Not saying that the IAS should be all evolved around the Akavir, but since there isn't much lore on them it offers much freedom
<Gnomey> I think the only actual permanent locations we know about are places like Pale Pass and Cloudruler Temple,
<Gnomey> the latter naturally being off-limits, and the former thoroughly buried.
<Gnomey> And then that place added by Skyrim, which also seems obscure.
<Gnomey> So it's not as though they could be investigated extensively in other provinces, at least as far as we know.
<klep> Haven't played much Oblivion or Skyrim myself so I couldnt say
<Gnomey> But, again, I don't think they maanged to establish themselves in Morrowind, though I could be wrong, so what would the player investigate?
<Gnomey> If there are any ruins, they'd have to be pre-Tribunal, locagically speaking.
<Gnomey> Maybe the player would find some gear in the Inner Sea?
<Gnomey> That could work.
<klep> Any information on a possible enemy would be valuable I'd say. There have been invasions in the past, which could have landed on Telvanni lands or even around the Nedothril coast
<klep> They must have left something behind
<Gnomey> It's possible.
<Gnomey> For them to have been flooded by Vivec,
<Gnomey> they would have had to have made it at least to near the Inner Sea.
<Gnomey> I doubt there would be ruins,
<Gnomey> but maybe stuff like mass graves, essentially.
<klep> They have made it much further than that. They ruled the Empire in Cyrodiil back in 2E
<Gnomey> Yes,
<Gnomey> but I'm not sure if they went through Morrowind.
<Gnomey> It's a rather odd bit of lore;
[...]
<Gnomey> the Tribunal were in their heyday then,
<Gnomey> and defeated one Akaviri invasion.
<Gnomey> I just don't see the Akaviri waltzing over Morrowind the second time,
<Gnomey> with no major lasting scars or records or anything.
<klep> True
<klep> The argonians are mentioned to team up with the Empire and Almalexias forces. It could have happened in the more southern areas of Morrowind
<Gnomey> That was the invasion Vivec defeated.
<Gnomey> Almalexia teamed up with Wulfharth, though TESO did something really wierd with the story.
<klep> Ah yes. And theres nothing left to see there? No TESO experience here
<Gnomey> In TESO I think the final engagment happened near our Old Ebonheart,
<Gnomey> but I only read a book written from the perspective of the Nord chieftain,
<Gnomey> and if that was TESO's official account I'd discount it entirely, it was very silly.
<Gnomey> Akaviri made it all the way to Old Ebonheart, and in the meanwhile an elite detachment of Argians apparently crossed all of Morrowind unopposed,
<Gnomey> appeared way up north at the location of the battle,
<Gnomey> and were welcome as allies.
<Gnomey> *Argonians
<klep> An unbelievably stupid idea
<Gnomey> Yep.
<Gnomey> If it was Nordic propaganda to legitimize working together with the Dunmer and Argonians, I could understand it,
<Gnomey> though it would still be silly,
<Gnomey> but as a result I would ignore the story.
<Gnomey> Not in the least because the Tribunal play no real role; no flooding or anything. The Akaviri are just 'driven into the sea'.
<klep> Such an alliance would have been known about all across Tamriel
<Gnomey> That's TESO for you.
<Gnomey> Orc ally with Bretons and Redguards,
<Gnomey> Wood Elves with Khajiit,
<Gnomey> And Dunmer with Nords and Argonians.
<klep> Blasphemy
<Gnomey> About the three least likely alliances one could come up with.
<klep> Then I'm not sure how to implement Akavir into the IAS, but it still wouldn't be strange to see something related to them in IAS quests
<Gnomey> Yeah, I've somewhat warmed to the idea,
<Gnomey> though, again, one issue is that any content involving them will almost certainly require a new model.
<Gnomey> In Oblivion, Tsaesci made an appearance,
<Gnomey> but they were just Imperial ghosts, rather than immortal vampire snakemen.
<Gnomey> It was incredibly lackluster, to the point I think they would have been better off leaving the Akaviri content out entirely.
<Gnomey> That's the main reason I'm rather hesistant when it comes to Akaviri content for TR.
<klep> If it's done it's gotta be done good. I'm no modder or designer, so couldn't tell how much work it would be and if it would be worth it
<Gnomey> Yeah.
<Gnomey> If it's one or two artifacts, it could be doable,
<Gnomey> as we need more artifacts anyway.
<Gnomey> Beyond that, though, I'm not su sure.[/spoiler]

I'm posting this here rather than in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=326720#326720]IAS thread[/url] because this is the place where we should discuss Akaviri invasions and such-like.

As a note, I was a little off on my timeline; the invasion the Tribunal repulsed occurred after the invasion that gave us the Blades. It is possible that the Tribunal weren't ready for the Akaviri the first time and did get walked over, which is why they took more extreme measures the second time. Though frankly I don't find that idea very convincing.
An interesting alternative I hadn't considered is that the Akaviri of the first invasion simply struck up an agreement with the Tribunal and were given free passage through Morrowind as long as they didn't cause any problems in Morrowind. Not sure if that's convncing either, though.
I would still consider going with the idea that the first invasion force landed in Skyrim, but I'm not too familiar with any sources we have off the top of my head, so I can't say how plausible that would be. I do think there's a reference to Akaviri pirates off the coast of Hammerfell, so it's not like they couldn't get to Skyrim.

I think the following is worth discussing, at least in the context of this thread:
-I would not take TESO's [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/jorunn-skald-king]account[/url] of the second Akaviri invasion at face value. I'd consider ignoring it entirely. I'm not sure if TESO has anything else to say on the subject; their version of events may be more nuanced than I give them credit for. I'm only familiar with the above source, but I haven't followed TESO or its new lore too closely.
-did the Akaviri pass through Morrowind on their first invasion, during the Second Empire? If so, how?
-did they leave any permanent structures in Morrowind in any of their invasions? If so, how any why?
-how exactly did the second invasion go down? I think we have a shrine on one of the Telvanni isles where Almalexia and Wulfharth were supposed to have fought off the Akaviri, or fought their leader anyway, but for Vivec's role in the affair to make sense I'd have thought they made it at least to western Telvannis. That being said, we can fiddle around with the accounts a little if it makes a better story.

[klep]

I've been collecting vanilla Morrowind and TR lore on House Indoril, and there are some inconsistencies. I've exchanged some words about this with Gnomey on IRC, and I think they should be discussed here.

Let me start with the two histories:

======
MW History
During the fall of High Velothi culture in the late Merethic Era (Somewhere between ME 2000 and ME 1000) the Velothi degenerated into tribal cultures, which, in time, evolved into the modern Great Houses of Morrowind, or persisted as the Ashlander tribes. This is when the Great Houses were initially founded. The founders of each individual House are unknown.
1E 416 During the War of Succession the united Chimer and Dwemer drove the Nords out of modern-day Morrowind, which was then called Resdayn. Indoril Nerevar and Dwarf king Dumac became leaders of the First Council of Resdayn, ruling jointly. Within a few hundred years, however, the alliance between Dwemer and Chimer disintegrated into battle, the War of the First Council. The Dwemer were vanished into extinction, Lord Indoril Nerevar deceased, the Tribunal became gods and the Chimer were transformed into the red-eyed dark-skinned Dunmer.

TR History
Of the becoming of the Hortator and the liberation of Resdayn
Nerevar was born in the mid to late 1E 300s. He was a low-born Chimer, with no name, who became a mercenary and was very good at it. While he served as a spear-rider for a caravan led by a minor House Chimer and heading towards Mournhold, the capital, his caravan discovered one of the first Dwemer war centurions, which bore the mark of the Nordic kings. The caravan was divided between two sides: one wanted to bring it to Mournhold to show the council of House Fathers there what new weapons the Nords had, while another wanted to bring it to nearby wizards (proto-Telvanni) who would pay well for dwemercraft. Nerevar couldn’t have a detour off their course for personal reasons – he was escaping debts, he had plans in Mournhold to set things straight. So when the caravaner decided to go sell the dwemercraft, he ended up killing the caravaner, stealing the dwemercraft, and riding off with the caravaner’s banners.
In Mournhold, he presented himself as a Chimer of the house of his banners. He met Vivec in the street. Vivec was not named Vivec then, but he erased his first name from the memory in the Red Moment so we don’t know what he was called. At the court of the House Fathers, Nerevar met the others who would be his cohort: Sotha Sil, Dagoth Voryn, and Indoril Laesa. All four were younger and less experienced than Nerevar. He was sworn to House Dagoth as a master-at-arms to train Dagoth Voryn, their heir, and would eventually marry Indoril Laesa. At some point, members of the house he had been claiming to be arrived in Mournhold, revealed his lie, and demanded he pay for his crime. But now he was an Indoril by marriage, and they protected him; Nerevar couldn’t be judged and made to pay like a lowborn, so if they wanted his blood they would have to declare a house war.
The Chimer and Dwemer united in 1E 416 to liberate Dwemereth from the Nords. Nerevar became a general in the war and was ultimately declared as Hortator of the Chimer. After the war, he and Dwarf king Dumac formed a fragile peace and created the kingdom of Resdayn.

Of Resdayn, the fall of Indoril Nerevar, and the rise of the Tribunal
The kingdom of Resdayn had peace for more than 200 years. There was significant technological advancement and everything was flourishing and great; this was the golden age of the Chimer.
Dagoth Voryn ruined it by discovering the Earthbone research of Kagrenac and the Tonal Architects. They were messing with the fundamental laws of the universe and behaving like gods and the Chimer thought that very profane and wrong. Ultimately, the Chimer declared war and it lead to the Battle of Red Mountain. As they were being defeated on the battle, Kagrenac completed his experiment and the Dwemer disappeared to become the golden skin of the Anumidium. Only one Dwemer remained, Yagrum Bagarn, who had sacrificed his salvation so that he could hook the Anumidium up to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dwemer could transcend reality.
Unfortunately for the Dwemer, Nerevar and Voryn discovered the profane tools. Nerevar had Voryn guard them while he sought counsel from his other advisors, ‘Vivec,’ Sil, and Laesa. He returned to Red Mountain with them to discover that Voryn wouldn’t give up the tools. There was a fight, Voryn escaped to eventually become Dagoth Ur the Sharmat, but Nerevar and his advisors took hold of the tools. Nerevar was going to destroy them, when his council killed him. Nerevar’s shield-bearer (aka squire), Sul Alandro, witnessed this. Sil activated the Dwemer tools and the Red Moment happened. The Chimer were transformed in the red-eyed, dark-skinned Dunmer. Nerevar’s council became gods, Vivec took his new name, Laesa took the title Alma Laesa, which has been imperialised to Almalexia, and the reign of the Tribunal began.

Of Great House Indoril
After the Proclamation of the Tribunal, a particularly zealous and devout group, many of whom had previously been the hand servants, secondary advisors, and shield-companions of the Tribunes in Their mortal history, set about proselytizing the newly ashened Dunmer and setting the order of Morrowind to right. This group included figures like Olms, Delyn, and Llothis. They regarded their actions as the continuity of the Second Council in keeping the laws of Morrowind; they regard Indoril Nerevar as the first leader of their house.
This house came to dominate Morrowind by virtue of controlling the Temple and regulating the law. The Telvanni abandoned the rest of Dunmer society, and the Dres operated in stubborn heterodoxy on the Deshaan, so both of those houses were largely outside of the Indoril sphere. But in the rest of Morrowind, the Redoran guarded the border and the Hlaalu mediated Morrowind's relationship with outlanders, but the Indoril ruled.
The Armistice which ended the second era cracked the Indoril’s system. It’s well-known that many Indoril committed suicide, but the reason is not well-understood. They weren’t stubborn or arrogant, they just couldn’t make sense of Morrowind losing its independence, because this was not consistent with determined law. A flurry of exegeses were written to explain the Armistice in terms of determined law; these tended to present the situation in a way that maintained the Tribunal’s total sovereignty over Morrowind.
As the third era has progressed, the Indoril faith has been further shaken. Events are increasingly discordant with the laws of the Tribunal, and the Triunes themselves no longer appear in public. Hlaalu have taken authority over much of the territory that was once Indoril – all of it west of the Thirr. Things were looking bleak – they weren't even able to participate in the opening of Vvardenfell – until the past decade, when Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro put them on a path to resurgence. But he was already aged, and he's ill. Rumour is that he hasn't been seen outside his cloister in months.
======

First concern: In TR history Indoril Nerevar marries into the House and makes it the Great House as we know it to be. In MW history, House Indoril becomes House Indoril after his death, because they named it after him.

I frankly prefer the former; Hosue Indoril already existed, but grew very quickly after the death of Nerevar, as it was the first to flock to the Tribunal.

Second concern: Sul Alandro witnessed the death of Nerevar by the Tribunal's hands(And possibly Dagoth, but nobody listens to him anyway). Obviously he was silenced, otherwise the Indoril would know how things went down. How did he get silenced? One way or another he appears to have been expelled to the Ashlander tribes, either alive or dead. How did this all happen?

There might be more concerns.

[Yeti]

I prefer the first. It makes the most sense to me, personally.

[Gnomey]

Note that, for all I care, House Indoril may have been called something different before, but adopted Nerevar's name to bank on his reputation and maybe even eventually pretended that they were always called that to more closely bind Nerevar to the House, rather than him essentially being a rogue who weaseled his way into the House.
Sort of the same as the idea that the six (or if you feel like including the Dwemer, seven) Houses joined together to form the First Council, when in fact many of them didn't exist and things were more complicated. It was worked into Temple and -- perhaps more importantly -- Indoril doctrine in post.

As for Alandro Sul, I finally got off my bottom and looked for some sources:

Hey now, I even gave him a fair shake at the Trial, so you know I'm down.

There were nice plans for Sul that never made it in the game, like the "Thousand Ringlets of Alandro Sul," where his mind was blasted into his chainmail headpiece by either A) madness or B) Tribunal-Gun. Then the ashlanders got hold of it and Sul could possess their minds when they wore it, making them see what he did, or thought he did. And then, of course, this thing got scattered and spread among the tribes, so that eventually ashlander tribesmer would all be wearing earrings made out of the chainmail ringlets, each one hearing the profane whisper of Truth.

That's where the name Sul-Matuul came from. Hardest of the hardcore.

Nerevar carried Keening, a dagger made of the sound of the shadow of the moons. His champions were Dumac Dwarfking, who carried a hammer of divine mass, and Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura and wore the Wraith Mail. They met Lorkhan at the last battle of Red Mountain. Lorkhan had his Heart again, but he had long been from it, and he needed time. Wulfharth met Sul but could not strike him, and he fell from grievous wounds, but not before shouting Sul blind. [...]

[img]http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/foulmurder.jpg[/img]

Note that the figure halfway buried is probably Dagoth and not Alandro Sul, after all. I'll link it anyway.

[Rats]

You know what'd be cool?

Having that MK picture in the above post as an actual wall mural in Necrom, at the entrance of the chamber where they keep Nerevar the Bone-Walker.

[Dreadnautilus]

You know what'd be cool?

Having that MK picture in the above post as an actual wall mural in Necrom, at the entrance of the chamber where they keep Nerevar the Bone-Walker.

I dunno why the temple architects would do that. Stuff alluding to the whole Nerevar murder dealio should be sealed away in the Temple Apocrypha.

[Rats]

Hence it being next to the bonewalker. It's not like anyone who saw the faceless, legless and impaled husk that Nerevar's corpse is wasn't aware of the Foul Murder, and it's not like anyone not privy to such information would ever get a chance to see the bonewalker or the mural.

[klep]

As much as I love that picture (I really very much do!), I doubt any Temple or Indoril man could be able to appreciate any such drawing.

Anyway, those pieces of lore are nice, Gnomey. We still need to determine the true history though. I am much in favour of B) that Sul was blasted by "Tribunal-Gun," and that he -- without the Tribunal knowing it -- transfered his mind into his chainmail headpiece in order to keep the truth alive after the betrayal of the Tribunal, and his death.

[Gnomey]

Depending on how you interpret his shrine image, they seem to have covered his face, and his lower legs appear to be missing entirely, really; somewhat in the direction of Sotha Sil. Basically, they probably 'prettied' the bonewalker up. He represents the cover-up, not the truth.

[img]http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120106115402/elderscrolls/images/b/b6/Nerevar.jpg[/img]

I could sort of imagine the image being used as bookart or as a misc note item like the schematics; it could either be tucked away -- perhaps between the leaves of a book -- in the restricted area of a high-level Temple library, like the Library of Vivec, or appear somewhere else, perhaps late in the Temple questline, perhaps with the player being told to burn it.

As for how, precisely, Sul was silenced, I don't think it's overly important. I do think he should very much be a passive witness, though. It shouldn't by his design that his mind was transferred into the Wraith Mail; he did not outwit the Tribunal. They simply messed up on their end, or the gods intervened, or chance intervened, or really anyone or anything other than Alandro Sul intervened.
I don't think the difference between madness having done it or the Tribunal-gun is very large, and nobody, perhaps least of all Alandro Sul, would know which it was anyway. I think both narratives should coexist in-game, but they're really just details.

[Dreadnautilus]

I think both narratives should coexist in-game, but they're really just details.

I could see the madness narrative being the official temple propaganda, saying that "Nerevar really died from fighting Dagoth and Dumac, and Alandro Sul only claims otherwise because he's lost all his marbles".

[Gnomey]

Yeah. Perhaps they'd even go as far as to say that his Mail was infused with the lies of the Sharmat. They could just as well deny the existence of the Wraith Mail, mind, and that bit of the story after his going mad -- even if you were to show it to them and hold it to their ears so that they could hear his whispers -- by reasoning of "LALALAI'MNOTLISTENING".

[klep]

So then, without knowing who did it or how Sul's mind got transfered into the mail, and with a little help of Michael Kirkbride, here's what I got:

Unfortunately for the Dwemer, Nerevar and Voryn discovered the profane tools. Nerevar had Voryn guard them while he sought counsel from his other advisors, ‘Vivec,’ Sil, and Laesa. He returned to Red Mountain with them to discover that Voryn wouldn’t give up the tools. There was a fight, Voryn escaped to eventually become Dagoth Ur the Sharmat, but Nerevar and his advisors took hold of the tools. Nerevar was going to destroy them, when his council killed him. Nerevar’s shield-bearer (aka squire), Sul Alandro, witnessed this. He was silenced hereafter, and by unknown means his mind was blasted into his chainmail headpiece. Then the Ashlanders got hold of it and Sul could possess their minds when they wore it, making them see what he did, or thought he did. And then, of course, this got scattered and spread among the tribes, so that eventually Ashlander tribes would all be wearing earrings made out of the chainmail ringlets, each one hearing the profane whisper of Truth. Sotha Sil activated the Dwemer tools and the Red Moment happened. The Chimer were transformed in the red-eyed, dark-skinned Dunmer. Nerevar’s council became gods, Vivec took his new name, Laesa took the title Alma Laesa, which has been imperialised to Almalexia, and the reign of the Tribunal began.

[Gnomey]

Yeah, that looks solid. Equating shield-bearer to 'squire' here might be slightly misleading and superfluous; while the positions are similar, there would no doubt be several differences between the Dunmer concept and the real-world concept. That's pretty irrelevant, though, as 'squire' carried different meanings in different times and places in the real world as well.

[Theminimanx]

Some nitpicking on the TR history of Nerevar and the Tribunal:

"At the court of the House Fathers, Nerevar met the others who would be his cohort: Sotha Sil, Dagoth Voryn, and Indoril Laesa. All four were younger and less experienced than Nerevar."
A minor contradiction with canon, where the Sotha Sil topic states:
"Companion and teacher of Nerevar and Vivec, Sotha Sil is the Light of Knowledge and the Inspiration of Craft and Sorcery." Sotha being a teacher also implies he was older than Nerevar and Vivec. I know 'real' history doesn't have to match up with the Temple history, but Temple doctrine came from somewhere. The roles the Tribunal had are likely to be at least based on actual history.

"As they were being defeated on the battlefield, Kagrenac completed his experiment and the Dwemer disappeared to become the golden skin of the Anumidium. Only one Dwemer remained, Yagrum Bagarn, who had sacrificed his salvation so that he could hook the Anumidium up to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dwemer could transcend reality."
This implies far more certainty about the fate of the Dwemer than we really have. If not even Vivec knows what happened to them, neither should we. Also, Yagrum Bagarn not being involved is one of the few things we know for certain.
"I was not there to observe. I was in an Outer Realm at the time, and when I came back, my people were gone."

[Gnomey]

As to the first point, I could see it go either way, but don't think it really matters, or will ever really come up. Teachers can be younger than students; how often that's the case is largely a societal thing, and Dunmer society is different from ours, which is different from, say, places like Japan, where I believe seniority plays a far greater role than it does for us. Sotha Sil was probably always intelligent -- and likely had much to teach Nerevar -- whether Nerevar was overall more experienced or not, and whether he was older or not.

As to the second point, we should and do indeed know more about what happened than Vivec did, which does not mean that that knowledge should necessarily make it into the game; it's quite possible even Hermaeus Mora doesn't know what's up, and he's probably the one most likely to know such secrets.
It's important for planning to go above and beyond in-game content to make sure the product is consistent. As part of this, we have to nail down certain events, such as what happened to the Dwarves, even if those events will never necessarily be fully conveyed to the player in-game.
I don't know if the bit about Yagrum Bagarn specifically is dev-acknowledged or if that's more speculative, but it is certainly a valid and -- I believe -- the current theory, and Yagrum Bagarn's statement does not discount it, as he himself will point out that he's suffering from Amnesia and simply doesn't know.
He was a student of Kagrenac who was sent to the outer realms, and due to being in the outer realms did not become incorporated into the skin of Akulakhan. It's not exactly far-fetched to assume that some design lay behind the sequence of events, especially as we're talking about the Dwemer.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

would then the flooding of the inner sea be a possible reason for the fall of high velothi culture? or was this too late of a date to be considered.

it has always interested me that a culture so prominent and, well, superior to the ashlander ways, could simply dissolve..?

this question lays not answered in the wikis, and i would like to know

[Rats]

I don't think "fall" is the appropriate term to use when talking about the High Velothi culture. Their society didn't crumble and fall as much as gradually transform through the First Council system into the Tribunal Temple and the Great Houses of today.

When the Inner Sea was created in the murky Second Era, the days of the High Velothi culture were long gone. (Though the actual "creation" of the Inner Sea itself is disputable: I'm sure many Imperial scholars for example would argue that the Dunmer origin story for the Sea is only superstition and that it always existed.)


edit: I'm sure though that a couple of ancient cities went a-slump when the Sea flooded, I have nothing against a few submerged ruins -- those would be cool

[klep]

Posting the TR history of House Indoril here for reference, including the changes since my last post about it and the latest small change on which was decided during the Skype Meeting of March 21, 2015.


Of the becoming of the Hortator and the liberation of Resdayn
Nerevar was born in the mid to late 1E 300s. He was a low-born Chimer, with no name, who became a mercenary and was very good at it. While he served as a spear-rider for a caravan led by a minor House Chimer and heading towards Mournhold, the capital, his caravan discovered one of the first Dwemer war centurions, which bore the mark of the Nordic kings. The caravan was divided between two sides: one wanted to bring it to Mournhold to show the council of House Fathers there what new weapons the Nords had, while another wanted to bring it to nearby wizards (proto-Telvanni) who would pay well for dwemercraft. Nerevar couldn’t have a detour off their course for personal reasons – he was escaping debts, he had plans in Mournhold to set things straight. So when the caravaner decided to go sell the dwemercraft, he ended up killing the caravaner, stealing the dwemercraft, and riding off with the caravaner’s banners.
In Mournhold, he presented himself as a Chimer of the house of his banners. He met Vivec in the street. Vivec was not named Vivec then, but he erased his first name from the memory in the Red Moment so we don’t know what he was called. At the court of the House Fathers, Nerevar met the others who would be his cohort: Sotha Sil, Dagoth Voryn, and Indoril Laesa. All four were younger and less experienced than Nerevar. He was sworn to House Dagoth as a master-at-arms to train Dagoth Voryn, their heir, and would eventually marry Indoril Laesa. At some point, members of the house he had been claiming to be arrived in Mournhold, revealed his lie, and demanded he pay for his crime. But now he was an Indoril by marriage, and they protected him; Nerevar couldn’t be judged and made to pay like a lowborn, so if they wanted his blood they would have to declare a house war.
The Chimer and Dwemer united in 1E 416 to liberate Dwemereth from the Nords. Nerevar became a general in the war and was ultimately declared as Hortator of the Chimer. After the war, he and Dwarf king Dumac formed a fragile peace and created the kingdom of Resdayn.


Of Resdayn, the fall of Indoril Nerevar, and the rise of the Tribunal
The kingdom of Resdayn had peace for more than 200 years. There was significant technological advancement and everything was flourishing and great; this was the golden age of the Chimer.
Dagoth Voryn ruined it by discovering the Earthbone research of Kagrenac and the Tonal Architects. They were messing with the fundamental laws of the universe and behaving like gods and the Chimer thought that very profane and wrong. Ultimately, the Chimer declared war and it lead to the Battle of Red Mountain. As they were being defeated on the battlefield, Kagrenac completed his experiment and the Dwemer disappeared to become the golden skin of the Anumidium. Only one Dwemer remained, Yagrum Bagarn, who had sacrificed his salvation so that he could hook the Anumidium up to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dwemer could transcend reality.
Unfortunately for the Dwemer, Nerevar and Voryn discovered the profane tools. Nerevar had Voryn guard them while he sought counsel from his other advisors, ‘Vivec,’ Sil, and Laesa. He returned to Red Mountain with them to discover that Voryn wouldn’t give up the tools. There was a fight, Voryn escaped to eventually become Dagoth Ur the Sharmat, but Nerevar and his advisors took hold of the tools. Nerevar was going to destroy them, when his council killed him. Nerevar’s shield-bearer, Sul Alandro, witnessed this. He was silenced hereafter, and by unknown means his mind was blasted into his chainmail headpiece. Then the Ashlanders got hold of it and Sul could possess their minds when they wore it, making them see what he did, or thought he did. And then, of course, this got scattered and spread among the tribes, so that eventually Ashlander tribes would all be wearing earrings made out of the chainmail ringlets, each one hearing the profane whisper of Truth. Sotha Sil activated the Dwemer tools and the Red Moment happened. The Chimer were transformed in the red-eyed, dark-skinned Dunmer. Nerevar’s council became gods, Vivec took his new name, Laesa took the title Alma Laesa, which has been imperialised to Almalexia, and the reign of the Tribunal began.

Of Great House Indoril
After the Proclamation of the Tribunal, a particularly zealous and devout group, many of whom had previously been the hand servants, secondary advisors, and shield-companions of the Tribunes in Their mortal history, set about proselytizing the newly ashened Dunmer and setting the order of Morrowind to right. This group included figures like Olms, Delyn, and Llothis. They regarded their actions as the continuity of the Second Council in keeping the laws of Morrowind; they regard Indoril Nerevar as the first leader of their house.
This house came to dominate Morrowind by virtue of controlling the Temple and regulating the law. The Telvanni abandoned the rest of Dunmer society, and the Dres operated in stubborn heterodoxy on the Deshaan, so both of those houses were largely outside of the Indoril sphere. But in the rest of Morrowind, the Redoran guarded the border and the Hlaalu mediated Morrowind's relationship with outlanders, but the Indoril ruled.
The Armistice which ended the second era cracked the Indoril’s system. They declined in strength after the Armistice, when a great number of its nobles committed suicide, unable to accept Morrowind’s new role as a province of the Third Empire. They weren’t stubborn or arrogant, they just couldn’t make sense of Morrowind losing its independence, because this was not consistent with determined law. The remainder of the house had a tough time adapting to the new situation, with all sorts of Dukes, Kings and a host of Imperial dignitaries being introduced to Morrowind’s governmental structure, and the presence of Almsivi ever decreasing. A flurry of exegeses were written to explain the Armistice in terms of determined law; these tended to present the situation in a way that maintained the Tribunal’s total sovereignty over Morrowind.
As the third era has progressed, the Indoril faith has been further shaken. Events are increasingly discordant with the laws of the Tribunal, and the Triunes themselves no longer appear in public. Hlaalu have taken authority over much of the territory that was once Indoril – all of it west of the Thirr. Things were looking bleak until the last couple of decades, when Indoril has been under the strong leadership of Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro, the brother of the Alma Rula and an experienced politician who reconciled the orthodox pacifists in the heartland and the traditional conservatives at the House’s territorial borders, managing to muster a firm response to Hlaalu’s expansionist policy and championing the House’s true values. But he was already aged, and he's ill. Rumour is that he hasn't been seen outside his cloister in months.

[cml33]

Non-Beast Race Slaves

Where do human and elvish slaves come from? Are they the result of "human/mer trafficking" from other provinces? Do they become slaves because they are heavily in debt to a Dunmer, so much so that they become their personal property as a form of collateral payment?

Secondary question: should they be limited to certain areas? I always sort of assumed they were mainly a Telvanni thing, or at least should only appear in considerable numbers in isolated areas free of outlander influence.

Tertiary question: Under what circumstances do the Dunmer enslave other Dunmer? Is it from capturing members of opposing Houses during a House War, or from warring with Ashlander tribes? Do they get into debt and lose their freedom as a means to pay it off?

I presume that human/mer slaves largely come from prisons outside Imperial control war, and debt. If this is the case, I'd expect there to be a stereotype that human slaves are unreliable due to many coming from prisons. The Redoran aren't known for their slaves, but I think it would be interesting if the Redoran were to employ Nord prisoners of war as slaves to the army. These slaves' jobs would primarily be construction related (walls and fortresses). Debt slaves are another possibility, but I'm not sure if this would take the form indentured servitude or straight up chattel slavery.

I think imperial/mer slaves should be a largely contested thing, however, and there is potential for conflict over the extent to which Morrowind's laws apply in certain situations regarding citizens of other provinces.

In terms of Dunmer slaves, perhaps some more unscrupulous Dunmer would sell their children into slavery to pay off a debt. I think some Dunmer would be captured during a House War, but I don't expect them to be sold into slavery. Ransomed and imprisoned, but not sold. I think the Dunmer would see the enslavement of a native-born Dunmer negatively. I presume that Outlanders would be considered fairer game for enslavement.

I'm not sure what slavery in the Ashlands is like, but it wouldn't seem out of place for me to encounter an Ashlander slave. Perhaps they could treat their slaves almost as part of the family unit with the potential to purchase freedom and become an active member of the tribe.

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Slavery_in_Africa#/West_Africa

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

perhaps the old japanese system could be used, in which the family must pay for the debts and actions of their own. say for instance, you accidentally give a telvanni a bad look; and he wants to punish you. now your punishment can also be taken on by a family member, same goes with money. but this also means that a whole noble family can essentially cease to exist due to the foolish actions of one kid. very dunmer.

[Anonytroll]

That's an Aldmeri concept, actually. See [url=http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Antecedants_of_Dwemer_Law]Antecedants of Dwemer Law[/url].
I'd expect the Dunmer would abandon such a thing, it being too Aldmeri for the Good Daedra (particularly Boethiah). Things like the Morag Tong would fill the void of compensation, I'd expect, you'd just spend a bit more to get the offender or their family killed.

[Gnomey]

I think Telvanni are a bad example; if they want to kill the family, they kill the family. They don't practice formal punishment, or really formal anything. They do what ever they want or get killed in the process if they're too weak.
I do think it would apply to the other Houses; subtly to House Hlaalu, more apparently with the rest. But with a major difference: rather than the family taking the fall, the troublemaker is generally exiled or otherwise 'dealt with' internally. The individual is merely a servant of the clan, and the clan takes priority. It's only in cases where the family tries to protect the troublemaker that they are also punished.

While it shouldn't be taken too seriously, being a bit of in-character developer fun in the time leading up to Morrowind's release, I think broadly speaking the exchange that starts about halfway down [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/redguard-forum-madness]this page[/url] gives a pretty good idea of how matters could develop if a family tries to protect a shamed son.

Something to keep in mind is that the Tribunal specifically codified a House War system to limit excess infighting and deaths of skilled clansmer. If a clan gets wiped out due to the misdeeds of an individual, the system would not be working as intended.

I do think there would be some House differences, though:
-Indoril are above punishment and wrongdoing, or they are not Indoril (ie. killed/exiled). Generally, they try to gloss over misdemeanors. If the misdemeanors are too apparent to gloss over, they make a show of virtuous behaviour (not penance because they can't ever be in the wrong) to block out the misdemeanor. Often, they would delegate the task of showing virtue to their extensive household staff, as, being incredibly important individuals, their time is more valuable than that of their servants. If the matter is graver still, and they cannot repair their reputation, and have undeniably messed up, they are no longer Indoril; they are expelled from hearth and home or their mortal coil, as the situation demands.
In general, the Indoril have the best grasp of the House War system and the intentions behind it, and make sure to avoid bloodshed where possible and single out a scapegoat where avoidance is not an option. From another perspective, Indoril families are 'too big to fail', both in reputation, by being so closely linked to the other Indoril families, and due to the power and influence they wield.
-Redoran expect the matter to be settled in a duel, preferably between the troublemaker and the other party, if necessary through champions. If the duel fails to take place, the family's reputation is compromised, and they have to take care of the matter internally. (I think they'd generally prefer a duel and, failing that, exile). If they fail to settle the matter internally, their reputation is significantly damaged. The result would generally be a loss in standing which they would need to repair over time, though, unless the offended party is offended enough to call in the Morag Tong.
-I'd actually expect the Dres to be more brutal than the Redoran; they'd probably quickly turn to the Morag Tong. I could also see them dueling, but I almost imagine them having a series of duels rather than just the one, as such a restrained solution wouldn't suit their traditionalist ways. If they felt they could justify it, I think they'd be quite willing to take their anger out on the family as well. They're not berserk or anything, though; they are aware that infighting is detrimental to their strength, they just think an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is the most effective and fair way to keep everyone in line. I see them as the sort who would kill misbehaving members of their own family, though, of course, with exceptions.