NathanJ's showcase

[Gnomey]

I hope I correctly interpreted your yes as an agreement to merging the threads. If worst comes to worst I can always split the topic again.

Hm, as far as ALMSIVI is concerned, it does seem to be more widely used than I'd though, though aside from obscure scriptures or very formal documents it seems to [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/search/node/ALMSIVI%20type%3Abook]generally[/url] just be written 'Almsivi'.

As for Antellius' cult, for consistency's sake I do think it should be incorporated into the Imperial Cult faction, but only loosely (and this would be a good place to note that all of this is very much brainstorming, not final decisions, of course). I'd assume most Hlaalu cities would not have nearby Legion forts, and instead the Imperials would be garrisoned within the city; outwardly a sign of hospitality, inwardly so that the Hlaalu can keep an eye on them. As such, Hlaalu cities would tend to have Imperial Cult shrines in them.
I think the shrines should generally be more individualistic in Hlaalu lands, as they're closer to Cyrodiil; rather than the generic Imperial Cult, the members would tend more often to be devoted to particular divines or cults. Antellius' is merely one such shrine in Andothren. As far as the Imperial Cult is concerned, it seems a rather minor if successful shrine, so they don't pay too much attention to it.

Edit: off the top of my head I'd say semi-important; moderately important would be more formal.

[NathanJ]

Great, thanks for putting the threads together!

As for Antellius' cult, for consistency's sake I do think it should be incorporated into the Imperial Cult faction, but only loosely

Yes, my idea was that Antellius shrine of course is part of the IC, and the Cult has some diversity in how its individual shrines are like. Here is a dialogue, shown in the vanilla game if you ask a IC member about Dibella:
"Dibella, the Goddess of Beauty, is the most popular god of the Nine Divines. In Cyrodiil, she has nearly a dozen different cults, some devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, and others to erotic instruction."

In this I see firstly the practice to include different cults in one organisation - simply the IC - which has a single, lets say general credo (there are nine divines, the empire is some sort of their chosen nation (the "worldly working of the divine plan") and the emperor the "defender of the faith") and secondly the possibility to interprete a single deity in different ways.

If we talk about Antellius, I believe it would be most likely like this: Antellius gets his calling by Julianos, travels to morrowind and begins his mission. At the moment he reaches Morrowind, he and later also his fellowship are under the responsibility of the "leadership" of the IC in morrowind. I know, we said there are no leaders in the meaning of the word, but in every organisation there are people who conduct things to make everything working smoothly. I also like the Idea of having some sort of a cardinal, working in a huge church, maybe in or near old ebonheart, who is responsable for everything happening in Morrowind.

[NathanJ]

Hi there, Ive translated the dialogues of my new quest into english recently, and I just wanted to share them with you . I used a few websites to translate some idioms I used in german, so the language shouldnt be so limited (though still not perfect) this time.
The quest takes place only inside the shrine (the second one I designed, the interior + 4 NPCs). It shall introduce some of the characteristics of the little fellowship of Marcus Antellius and its relationship with him. I call it "the bigoted missionary", and it tells about an odd dunmer-convert causing trouble within the shrine. Have fun ^^



-> Marcus Antellius:
Greeting: Hello, %PCName. I've heard a lot about you and I believe you can be very useful to the Shrine. What do you say, are you ready to SERVE Julianos and the Nine?

SERVE
Right! I have quite a lot of work to do for an outsider like you, not to say I need an outsider like you. I believe you will please Julianos well with your assistance. The first task I will give you is arbitrating in a DISPUTE between two great people of this shrine who sadly have some slight variance for a long time now. But to not give you too much information too early – I dont want you to prejudice them – I send you directly to Aralsa, one of the two I meant.. She is upstairs. Good luck!


-> Aralsa:

DISPUTE
Marcus sent you to me? Then hes more interested in this than I thought... Yes, me and Shera had a little dispute a few days ago, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Because of our very different opinion about things like faith and lifestyle we do a slow burn for a very long time now. But to tell you about the incident, we were at the marketplace to buy things for the shrine, as I got in a struggle with a Dunmer from the city. Thanks to the Nine nothing really happened, we were only arguing, a little bit louder... well, maybe I have threatened him one or two times, but I was really trying to be calm. When we got home, Shera gave me hell, called me hypocritical and tought me I should have been quiet and had told him about the Nine and of our faith instead of shouting and so on – sounds strange, I know, but the logic behind this is that the discussion partner sees another reaction than he expects and... yeah, its complicated, Marcus could explain that better. Well, that's Shera, the perfect missionary, a little bit like Marcus, but with less brains. Since that day everything is worse with her. She cuts me dead, drops nasty comments about me every day and maligns me behind my back. A long time ago, in another life, I would have taken care of that. But now that I live in this Shrine and live another life... now it's a different matter. Unfortunately I can nowhere near handle words as good as my fists and dagger, you know? Therefore I ask you to talk to Shera and at least convince her to leave me in peace. We don't have to LIKE each other, but a little bit of respect I can expect, can't I?

->Shera:

DISPUTE

Disp.<70:
I have nothing to say about this.

Disp.>=70:
Oh my gosh, Aralsa had sent you to me, yes? Is she afraid she could crush my skull by accident while trying to conduct a conversation? Like almost happened with this guy recently, haha. So, what are you going to tell me?

(The player has the choice between the following answers, marked through arrows)

->Aralsas behaviour was wrong, I agree. And I think she should have been calm, youre right. Ill go back to her and tell her shes wrong and should talk with Marcus Antellius about that.

Well then, lets see what she sais, if you can convince her, im happy.

(going back to Aralsa)

Aralsa:
What, you think I was wrong? Hm, somehow I expected that you think like Shera. Even though I don't like her manner, maybe she's right. Well, maybe I will talk with Marcus about this story later. And you can tell Shera that Aralsa said that Shera is right. And tell Marcus you have done what he had said. So. I hope I have reached today's target now.

-> Aralsas behaviour was wrong, but I think she still needs time to realize that. This is your chance to practice the virtue of humility!

Yes, maybe you're right.. I... I dont know what makes me so irascible sometimes... Maybe Aralsa and me are not so different at that point, right? So I'll talk with Marcus about this matter and repent. Thank you for reminding me of what it really means to live agreeable to the gods...

Aralsa:
Wow, thanks! That was exactly the thing I wanted. You would comlete our little shrine perfectly wouldn't you? I would go back to Marcus, he would want to know how it went.



-> You see this incident and Aralsa way too negative. Basically you're right if you say the gods don't want us to be violent and barbaric, but for someone like Aralsa, who actually doesn't know another behaviour, its really hard to implement that.

So easy is this matter for you? Hmm... Yes, maybe I was too bigoted to realize that. Even though I still think she should have had behave different, my reaction was too extreme. Deliver my apologise to her, it won't happen anymore.

Aralsa:
She APOLOGIZES? That... is amazing! Thank you. I didn't know Shera is capable of that, haha! Marcus wants to know that too, for sure.

-> I dont give a monkey of what you say – I want you to let Aralsa in peace, okay?

THIS will not be the end of this story, %PCName! The gods have heard what you said and they see your insincere heart! You and Aralsa, you two are weakening the faith of this fellowship. Go away now!

Aralsa:
Hm, this was my method, you know? Well, it was worth a shot. You better go now.

(going back to Marcus Antellius)
Marcus Antellius:
So you have dealt with this dispute, and began your journey in Julianos' service. I have heard how it had ended, and whatever you may think of it – I decided to send an outsider to do this, knowing the risks. So, I have some further work for you, but take your time to relax and come when you're ready.

[NathanJ]

Update: I will do some research about Aedra/Daedra in general, different pantheons, the Aedra not included in the nine, the talos-cult and a few other things to become more secure in lore.
For now, my plan is to work on the IC-thing (Faction, Guildhalls (shrines), questlines) self-sufficiently, updating every week or so, depending on how quickly I can achieve results.
The reason for this is that, as how I see it, it helps TR more if I dont post every little step waiting for feedback from a lore expert or lead developper before working on (because my ideas can come really fast - and I begin to like writing for TR^^), but to deliver finished, lore-conformable designs (because the discussion about simple lore-specific questions while developping ideas seems to take way too much time) which can either be used as bad examples (hopefully not ), as templates, or in the best case be adopted.

[Gnomey]

Whatever works best for you. I try to maintain a presence on [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25004]IRC[/url], timezones and daily affairs permitting, so if you have particular questions you could always try dropping by there and seeing if I or anyone else am around. IRC is better suited for asking and answering questions and bouncing ideas back and forth; the forums are like snail mail in comparison.

[NathanJ]

Update: Ive written a little analysis of things concerning the IC and its rites. A few things are just IC in general. Interesting stuff, I promise. Now a little question, is someone german here? I have to translate the whole thing, and its 3 pages long... I mean one day Ill get it translated, but I would also appreciate help

[Gnomey]

I'd suggest posting it in German in spoilers, and then adding the translation by and by above the spoilers. I might pitch in with the translation, but I won't make any promises. I know that one or two other members also know German, and they might help out as well.

[NathanJ]

OK then, thank you very much, heres what ive got. I quickly looked through it and replaced the german names of places etc. to make it better to translate. When I have time and Energy I will translate too

--------------------------

Ich habe ein wenig gegraben, um mehr über den Kult und seine Bräuche herauszufinden. Um Fehler zu vermeiden, die durch eventuell fehlerhafte Recherche von Dritten zustande gekommen sind, habe ich mich darauf beschränkt, einzig und allein die Informationen zu verwenden, die im Spiel selbst enthalten sind. Also, wenn ihr hier Fehler entdeckt, sind es wenigstens meine eigenen ;p. Das ist vielleicht nur der erste Teil einer Reihe von Texten mit unterschiedlichen Ansätzen und Ergebnissen^^ Also im Klartext: Das was hier steht, ist nicht vollständig, es enthält aber bereits einige nützliche Informationen.
Ich habe auch, um das Ganze etwas zu verkürzen, ein paar neue Begriffe eingeführt, wie die kanonischen Kultobjekte und die kanonischen Riten.


Kaiserlicher Kult – Analyse

Die folgenden Informationen wurden hauptsächlich mit der "Item+NPC-Gesamtschau" (NathanJ's registered trademark^^) gesammelt. Diese Strategie versucht, logische Schlüsse aus der Auswahl, Position, Anordnung, Menge und sonstiger Beschaffenheit von Items und NPCs, sowie die Beschaffenheit von Orten allgemein (Größe, Namen... siehe unten...) zu ziehen und so, Puzzleteil für Puzzleteil, ein Gesamtbild von einer Fraktion und die damit verbundenen Geschehnisse, Bräuche, Probleme und vieles mehr zu schaffen. Diese Item+NPC-Sache ist glaube ich ein relativ unverbrauchter Ansatz, der neue, spezielle Infos über die praktische Seite des Glaubens des IC zutage bringen kann – verglichen mit ingame-Bücher und Dialoge lesen, was mehr den theoretischen Hintergrund erklärt als einen Einblick in das tägliche Geschehen.


Theologie:
[spoiler]
-Theologie
-keine heiligen schriften (ausser Anuad), IC ist keine Schriftreligion

Es gibt dafür, dass der IC keine hlg. Schriften besitzt, drei Hauptargumente.
Das erste ist selbstverständlich, dass das Construction Set keine hergibt, außer vielleicht die Anuad (welche vermutlich ursprünglich eine mündliche Überlieferung war). "For my gods and Emperor " ist seinem Wesen nach ein Handbuch für Neubekehrte, kein heiliger Text. Das zweite ist, daraus resultierend, dass in keinem Schrein außer dem in Ebonheart (welcher kein Schrein ist, sondern eine Kapelle, siehe Schreine) nennenswerte Bücher zu finden sind – außer eben Anuad, For my gods and emperor, und zwei Bücher, die den IC etwas wissenschaftlicher betrachten. Dass diese Bücher in der Kapelle, direkt neben den Referenzen zu finden sind, spricht im Übrigen sehr für die Fähigkeit des IC, sich relativ differenziert selbst zu reflektieren.
Drittens findet man im Schrein in der Fort Frostmoth auf Solstheim eine große Bibliothek mit heiligen Schriften vom Tribunal-Tempel, selbst mit einem Exemplar von progress of truth. Das spricht für ein reges Interesse an Religionsphilosophie und für die intellektuelle Seite des Glaubens. Wenn es nennenswerte heilige Texte des Kultes gäbe, wären diese vermutlich in dieser Bibliothek auch vertreten..[/spoiler]

Ritus:
[spoiler]-Ritus
-Das Opfer

Opfergaben in Form von Geld sind üblich, um Segnungen von den Göttern zu erhalten (der PC kann normal darauf zugreifen, Altäre werden auch als "healing altars" bezeichnet). Altäre fungieren so scheinbar als Leiter von göttlicher Kraft, ich persönlich vermute hier eine Form von göttlichem Eingriff in die Sphäre der Sterblichen, was auch Teil der Diskussion um die tatsächliche Macht der Aedra werden könnte.

-Der Altar


Der Altar ist scheinbar das wichtigste Kultobjekt des Kultes, da kein einziger Schrein ohne auskommt.
Es wird streng darauf geachtet, was auf dem Altar steht. Ich habe festgestellt, dass jegliches Equipment, was mit dem Altar in Berührung kommt, aus Silber besteht. Die Standardausrüstung eines Altars ist folgende: 1 Silberner Kerzenhalter mit 3 Armen; 1 Silberbecher; 1 Brot und/oder Geld, beides muss sich auf einem Silberteller oder in einer Silberschale befinden. Ich nenne diese Gegenstände kanonische Kultobjekte.
Es muss nicht zwingend ein einziger Kerzenhalter mit 3 Armen sein, In Pelagiad beispielsweise steht ein Kerzenständer mit nur einem Arm, in Ebenherz zwei dreiarmige Kerzenständer.
Wichtig scheint aber zu sein, dass
-...mindestens eine Kerze brennt (drei Arme sind aber erste Wahl)
-...alles, was den Altar berührt, aus Silber besteht (oder alternativ aus einem Edelmetall – vielleicht um den Altar nicht mit minderwertigen Materialien zu "beschmutzen", oder schlicht um den Altar/den Stoffüberzug nicht mit Dingen wie Wachs oder Brot zu beschmutzen. Dagegen spricht, dass auch Geld stets auf einem Silberteller/schale liegt.)
-...das geopferte Geld, vermutlich zur Zurschaustellung, eine Weile auf dem Altar liegenbleibt
-...wenn kein Geld, Brot auf dem Altar liegt
Interessante Fussnote: Carnius Magius, der Anführer der east empire company auf Solstheim, lebt im Schrein des Kultes und hat scheinbar seinen Schreibtisch zu einem Altar umgebaut, da auf diesem die kanonischen Kultobjekte liegen. Das ist auch ein Argument dafür, dass die Riten nicht zwingend einen Priester erfordern, denn sonst könnte Magius einfach zum hiesigen Priester gehen und dessen Altar verwenden. Magius zieht es also vor, im stillen Kämmerlein seine Riten zu vollziehen. Möglicherweise ist er auch nur ein Kuriosum, eine Ausnahme.

Folglich geschehen die theoretischen kanonischen Riten mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit in unmittelbarer Nähe des Altars, welcher dabei als Ablagefläche verwendet wird.

-Die kanonischen Riten



Dies ist der Punkt, über den am wenigsten Information zu finden ist. Fakt ist, dass es einen Ritus gibt, in dem Cyrodiilic brandy oder Shein eine wichtige Rolle spielt. Möglicherweise auch Brot, es ist jedoch nicht klar, ob es sich hier um denselben Ritus oder um verschiedene handelt. Woher wissen wir, dass es genau diese beiden Getränke sind? Hierfür sehen wir uns folgende Dinge an: zum einen ist ein Silberbecher eines der kan. Kultobjekte, es spielt also wahrscheinlich eine Flüssigkeit eine Rolle. In nur zwei Schreinen (Ebonheart und Solstheim, Fort Frostmoth) finden wir Getränke (beide Schreine Cyrodiilic Brandy und Shein), außer natürlich Heiltränke, die aber wahrscheinlich primär zum Verkauf and Bedürftige gedacht sind. Es ist zwar nicht gänzlich auszuschliessen, dass auch sie im Ritus eine Rolle spielen, wahrscheinlicher sind aber Brandy und Shein. Das dritte und aussagekräftigste, was wir uns hierbei anschauen sollten, ist die Quest, die uns der Kommandant der Eisfalter-Festung, Solstheim, ganz am Anfang gibt. Wir erinnern uns:

Die erste Quest in der Haupt-Questline von Bloodmoon ist "rebellion at Frostmoth". Hauptmann Carius beauftragt den PC, nachzuforschen, warum die Truppenmoral in letzter Zeit so gesunken ist. Wenn man daraufhin eine Wache anspricht, sagt sie, sie würde mehr sagen, wenn sie etwas zum Befeuchten ihrer Kehle hätte. Wenn man ihr dann ein alkoholisches Getränk bringt, sagt sie, dass es seit es eine Festung ohne alkohol ist ("Der Hauptmann hat jeglichen alkohol verboten"), mehr Unmut bei den Soldaten gäbe. Mit dieser Information geht man zum Hauptmann, dieser sagt, er hätte den Alkohol nicht verboten, sondern der Priester Antonius Nnucius hätte ihn darauf aufmerksam gemacht, dass der Alkohol keinen guten Einfluss auf die Soldaten hätte. Als man bei einer Wache nachfragt, sagt diese, besagter Priester streut die Information, Alkohol sei verboten. Als man Antonius Nuncius darauf anspricht, sagt er, dass es egal ist, was er sagt, weil sowieso keine Lieferungen mehr die Festung erreichen und er keine Fragen mehr beantworten wolle. Am Ende stellt sich heraus, dass der Priester die ankommenden Lieferungen in seinem Quartier versteckt, um dann zu behaupten, die Lieferungen seien nicht angekommen.


Hier ist der springende Punkt. Jeder in der Festung behauptet, das Lager, in dem die alkoholischen Getränke gelagert werden, sei leer. De Facto kommt kein Soldat mehr an etwas zu trinken. Das alles, obwohl in einem verschlossenen Raum im Schrein des IC der Fort Frostmoth jede Menge edelster Schnaps zu finden ist (3 mal Cyrod. brandy, 3 mal Shein, zusammen mit unzähligen Silberbechern, -krügen, -tellern und -schalen, Heiltränken und sogar ein dreiarmiger silberner Kerzenhalter plus die kan. Kultobjekte auf einem großen Tisch in der Mitte) – und die dortige Wache (innerhalb des Raumes) vergreift sich nicht daran, sie beschwert sich, wie alle anderen auch, über die Festung ohne Alkohol. Die einzige Erklärung hierfür ist, dass dieser Alkohol gesondert gelagert wird und nicht für die Allgemeinheit bestimmt ist. Zusammen mit der restlichen Ausstattung des Raumes (und seiner Position im Schrein des IC natürlich) drängt sich der Gedanke auf, dass es sich bei ihm um einen Lagerraum des Kultes für Kultobjekte handelt und der dortige Alkohol für religiöse Riten vorbehalten ist.

Die Tatsache, dass ein Kelch und oft Brot auf den Altären zu finden ist, erinnert an das Christliche Abendmahl (vielleicht hat Bethesda bewusst diese Dinge verwendet, um der Erfindung neuer Riten aus dem Weg zu gehen – aus zeitlichen Gründen, oder auch um dem Kult etwas mehr christliche Bezüge zu liefern. Vielleicht beides). Jedoch gibt es im kaiserlichen Kult natürlich nicht ansatzweise eine ähnliche Symbolik wie die des christlichen Abendmahles (Das Opfer des Stellvertreters, dessen Körper symbolisch von den durch es Befreiten konsumiert wird), was die Notwendigkeit einer Neuinterpretierung von Kelch und Brot mit sich bringt.[/spoiler]


Schreine:
[spoiler]-Schreine

In den Schreinen befinden sich oft Heiler und diverse Tränke, die von diesen verkauft werden.

An den Schreinen fällt eines auf: Keiner von ihnen (außer die Kapelle in Ebonheart und der Schrein auf Solstheim) scheint groß genug zu sein für einen Gottesdienst im klassischen Sinne. Auch der Schrein auf der insel Solstheim ist nicht ausgestattet für einen klassischen Gottesdienst, er ist mehr eine vergrößerte Version eines theoretischen Standardschreins. Nur die Kapelle in Ebonheart verfügt über einen Raum, der etwa so aussieht wie ein kirchlicher (christlicher) Gottesdienstraum (siehe die Anordnung der Bänke). In Ebonheart finden sich auch die vier wichtigsten Bücher, die sich mit dem Kult beschäftigen, auf einem Haufen. Die Tatsache, dass der Schrein in Ebonheart nicht Schrein heißt, sondern Kapelle, und dass diese Kapelle anders aussieht als die Schreine (Auch als der riesige Schrein auf Solstheim – es geht um die "Kirchenschiffe"), weist auf die andersartige Natur dieses Ortes hin. Meine Hypothese ist, dass in dieser Kapelle andersartige, vielleicht ausgedehntere Gottesdienste mit >10 Personen abgehalten werden, während in den Schreinen nur Riten stattfinden, die nur Einzelpersonen, höchstens Gruppen von vllt 3 Personen mit einbeziehen.

Hier ein kurzer Einblick in Wikipedias Meinung:

A shrine (Latin: scrinium "case or chest for books or papers"; Old French: escrin "box or case")[1] is a holy or sacred place, which is dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon or similar figure of awe and respect, at which they are venerated or worshipped.

A chapel is a religious place of fellowship, prayer and worship that is attached to a larger, often nonreligious institution or that is considered an extension of a primary religious institution.

Der Unterschied besteht also in zwei Dingen: Der Schrein ist einem bestimmten Wesen gewidmet, aber nicht zwangsläufig ein Ort der Zusammenkunft. Eine Kapelle ist ein Ort der Zusammenkunft, aber nicht zwangsläufig einem Wesen gewidmet.

Das bedeutet ein Klutanhänger lebt sein Leben außerhalb des Schreins, hoffentlich im Einklang mit den nine virtues. Es gibt Tage, an denen aus nicht bekannten Gründen ein Ritus ansteht. Zu diesem Anlass besucht der Gläubige den Schrein und vollzieht den Ritus und/oder unterhält sich mit dem Priester, und kehrt daraufhin nach hause zurück. Bei weitem nicht jede Stadt besitzt einen Ort, an dem sich eine ganze Gemeinde von Kultanhängern treffen kann, auf Vvardenfell existiert nur eine: Ebonheart.[/spoiler]


Glaubenspraxis:
[spoiler]-Glaubenspraxis
-Nine Virtues
Die neun Tugenden kann man getrost als die Zehn Gebote des IC verstehen, wenn sie auch wesentlich großzügiger ausgelegt werden können als die aus der Bibel/Tora, welche tendenziell mehr in Spezialfällen der Auslegung bedürfen.
-Mission
Der IC versteht sich als missionarischen Kult (siehe "For my gods and emperor"). Andere Götter wie Alduin oder Orkey werden als heidnische Götter bezeichnet und es gibt Mitglieder, die sich in einem göttlichen Auftrag sehen, "Heiden" zu den Neun zu bekehren (Siehe die IC-Quest auf Solstheim)[/spoiler]

[NathanJ]

Okay, first part of my little monster:

("Ich habe ein wenig gegraben...") added and shortened a little while translating..



"I have dug a little to find out more about the cult and its customs. To avoid possible mistakes made by people doing that stuff before me, I have decided to use only the information given by the game itself (so no uesp.net - they are really good at their job, nothing against their awesome work, but I'm the kind of guy who does everything 150 percent...) So if you find mistakes, which can be, they're my very own ;p. This may be only the first of a small series of breakdowns with different approaches and results^^ so in plain language: this is not complete, but it already contains some useful information (also some things that are more or less known already but inspected a second time).
To make things a bit shorter, I also made two new terms: the canonical cult objects and canonical rites.

Imperial cult - analysis

The following information was gathered through a simple method I call "item- and NPC- synopsis" (NathanJ's registered trademark ;p). This strategy tries to conclude facts from the assortment, positions, arrangement, quantity and other things of related items. NPCs are treated the same way.
This Item+NPC-thing, only focusing on those two (and of course a close look at the places involved, for there's no item and no NPC without its place..), is a relatively fresh approach that should give more information about what the NPC's are doing when we don't look than ingame-book-reading or even dialogue, which give more information about lore and such."

So that was the text before the spoilers. The spoiler headings are as following:

-Theology
[spoiler]-no religious scripture (aside from the Anuad), the Imperial Cult is not a religion based on scripture.

There are three main arguments for the idea that the Imperial Cult has no holy scriptures:
The first is, of course, that the CS doesn't contain anything like Imperial Cult scripture, except maybe for the Anuad. (Which was probably taken from oral tradition). "For my Gods and Emperor" is by its nature a handbook for new converts, not a holy text. The second is, by extension, that no noteworthy scriptures are found in any shrines except in Ebonheart (Which is not a shrine but a chapel; see Shrines) - aside from the Anuad, For my Gods and Emperor, and two books which study the Imperial Cult from a more academic angle. That those books can be found in the chapel right next to the reference books incidentally speaks for the fact that the Imperial Cult is capable of relatively open self-reflection.
Thirdly, in the shrine in Fort Frostmoth one finds a large library with religious texts of the Tribunal Temple, even with a copy of Progress of Truth. That speaks for a lively interest in religious philosophy and for the intellectual aspect of belief. If there were notable Imperial Cult scriptures such books would probably not be present in the library.[/spoiler]

-Rites
[spoiler]

- The sacrifice and the altars powers

Sacrificial offerings in the form of money are usual to recieve blessings from the gods (the PC has normal access to this system, altars are also called "healing altars").
Every NPC who talks about this, calls it "blessing". Some native Dunmer talk about the Nine Divines like this: "they are powerful, no doubt, but are they GOOD?". Why is the fact that the Nine are powerfull so well known in the society? I believe the altar-blessings, to which a everyone has normal access, are the reason. So altars seem to be something like conductors for divine power, I suppose here to be a kind of divine intervention into the sphere of mortals, which could become part of the discussion about the actual power of the Aedra. But this is only an assumption, the altar could also simply be enchanted - but that would mean the common persuasion that its a true divine blessing, which the altar grants the offerer, is actually a lie. In the end its not entirely proven, but I believe such a lie is rather unlikely. But maybe to be discussed and to be further analyzed. Question:
How is an altar created (similar to the temple-shrines, which grant similar blessings?)?


- rites

The altar is the most important cult object of the IC, for no shrine comes without one. The IC pays attention to what exactly lies on the altar. I realized that every item that touches the altar is made of silver. The standard equipment of an altar is the following: 1 silver candlestick holder with 3 arms; 1 silver cup; 1 Bread OR money, both has to lie on a silver tablet or bowl. I call those objects the canonic cult objects. It does not necessarily have to be exactly one silver candlestick with exactly 3 arms. For ex. in Pelagiad lies a candlestick holder with only one arm, in the chapel in ebonheart there are two ones with three arms. But it seems to be important, that...
- ...at least one candle is on the altar ( but one holder with three arms is first choice),
- ...everything that touches the altar is made of silver (or alternatively made of a precious metal, maybe to not "begrime" the altar with cheap materials. One reason should also be that nothing like bread or wax shall get the altar/ the altars cloth coat dirty - a point against that is that money has to lie in a silver bowl/tablet too.),
- ... the money after being offered, keeps lying on the altar for a while (if we say the money comes from the common sacrifice to get a divine blessing, see above) and is then taken down, and last but not least
- ... if no money lies on the altar, there has to be bread.

interesting footnote: Carnius Magius, the leader of the east empire company on solstheim, lives inside the IC-shrine and seems to have converted a table into an altar, for the canonic cult objects are lying on it. This is also an argument for the rites (or some of them) not necessarily needing a priest, for Magius could also go to the priest and use his altar instead. So at least Magius prefers to be alone with his rites. But maybe he is only a curiosity, an exception.

So the rites of the IC, that use those items, I call the theoretical canonical rites


- the canonical rites

This point is the one why I started this little breakdown, and also the one about that there is least information. But I found that there is a rite in which cyrodiilic brandy or shein plays a role. Possibly bread too, but its not clear, wether it is the same rite which includes bread or another. Why do we know that its exactly those two beverages? For this we look at following things:
Firstly one of the canonic cult objects is a cup, so a beverage should play a role. Otherwise the existance of the cup among the cult objects would be hard to explain. Of course, the explanation would be that the IC puts an empty cup on the altar because of special theologic reasons (in memory of sth. or such things), but for this we would have to leave the facts and enter the realm of speculation. So we have a cup containing a liquid. In only two shrines (ebonheart and Solstheim, fort frostmoth) we find beverages (both places cyrodiilic brandy and shein) exept potions of course, but they are primarily for sell to people in need. Its not completely impossible that potions also have a ritual importance, but unlikely. In most shrines that dont contain other beverages than potions, we find empty bottles.
But the most meaningful argument for Cyrod. brandy and shein is the first quest of the bloodmoon-main quest. We remember:

The first quest of the bloodmoon-main quest is "rebellion at frostmoth". Captain Carius sends the player to find out why the morale has been low lately. If we talk to a guard then, he says he would say more, if he would have something to drink. If we come back with an alcoholic beverage and give it to him, he says that since fort frostmoth is a dry fort ("The Captain had forbidden any alcohol"), the soldiers are not so happy anymore. We go back to Carius and he says, he had not forbidden the alcohol explicitely, but there are not coming any shipments with alcohol anymore. Further he says that Antonius nuncius, a priest in the IC-shrine originally had the idea that the alcohol hasnt a really good influence on the soldiers. Another guard says that the information, that the captain has forbidden any alcohol, comes from Nuncius, not directly from the captain. We talk to Nuncius, and he reacts upset and only says that its not important if we say its forbidden or not, for no shipments actually arrive at the fort. At the end it turns out that Nuncius hides the incoming shipments inside his office (its not in the IC-shrine - there is a vial of skooma too, so skooma also reaches the fort - but thats another topic^^) and then asserts that nothing arrived.

So that is the point: Everyone in the fort asserts that the storage, which alcohol is stored in, is empty. And de facto nobody in the fort gets alcohol. The alcohol coming from the shipments gets well hidden in an office that is in the armory of the fort. That, although in a locked room inside the Shrine of the IC, in shelves, stand 6 bottles of alcoholic beverages - 3 times Cyrodiilic brandy and 3 times shein, together with numerous silver cups, -jugs, -tablets, -bowls, potions and a silver candlestick holder with three arms plus the canonic cult objects lying on a table in the middle of the room. And the guard there (inside this locked room) doesnt take them or talks about them - he complains, just as every other guard in the fort, about the dry fort.
The only explanation for this is that this alcohol is stored separately and not destined for the commonality. Together with the other items inside this room (and its psition inside the IC-shrine of course) the idea suggests itself that this room is actually a storage for cult objects and the alcohol there - cyrodiilic brandy and shein - is destined for religious rites.

The fact, that a cup and often bread is to be found on the altars, reminds of the christian Last Supper. Maybe Bethesda has taken those items on purpose, to avoid the invention of new rites, for reasons of time, or to give the IC more christian details. Maybe both. But in the Imperial cult there is not nearly as such a symbolic meaning possible as in christianity (The substitutes flesh(bread) and blood(wine) gets consumed by the ones setted free by his sacrifice), which makes a new interpretation of bread and brandy/shein necessary. My idea is splitting the rite into the bread-rite and the brandy-rite, because simply giving the IC an own Last Supper would be a bit too cliche you know.
[/spoiler]

-Shrines
[spoiler] In the shrines there are mostly healers or priests, who are selling potions (with effects from the restoration school of magic), spells or sometimes do training.

Someone may notice that no shrine seems to be large enough for church service in its typical meaning. The shrine in fort frostmoth is large, but not equipped for that, its more a bigger version of a theoretical standard shrine. Only the chapel in ebonheart has a room that looks like a christian church room, the one you get into first when you enter the chapel (because of the benches, arranged in three rows, straightened to the altar). In ebonheart one also finds the 4 most important books having to do with the cult all on a small table. The fact that the guildhall in ebonheart isnt called "shrine" but "chapel" and that this chapel looks different, indicates that this is actually another kind of place. My hypothesis is, that in this chapel also other , maybe more extensive church services or rites take place, which would include >10 people, while in a shrine only rites including up to maybe around 3 people happen.

here a short insight in what wikipedia sais:

A shrine (Latin: scrinium "case or chest for books or papers"; Old French: escrin "box or case")[1] is a holy or sacred place, which is dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon or similar figure of awe and respect, at which they are venerated or worshipped.

A chapel is a religious place of fellowship, prayer and worship that is attached to a larger, often nonreligious institution or that is considered an extension of a primary religious institution.

So a shrine is dedicated to a certain being and not necessarily a place of fellowship, while a chapel is a place of fellowship and not necessarily dedicated to a certain being.[/spoiler]

-Practising Faith
[spoiler]
- Nine Virtues
The Nine Virtues can be called the Ten Commandments of the IC, while they can be more freely interpreted as the Ten Commandments, which are a little more precise in their statements.
- Mission
The IC perceives itself as missionary cult (see "for my gods and emperor"). Other deities like Alduin and Orkey are called "pagan gods" and there are IC-mambers, who see their task in proselytising "pagans" (see the IC-Quest on Solstheim)[/spoiler]

So this is my theory for now: The common believer lives his life outside the shrine, hopefully conforming to the nine virtues, until for unknown reasons the time has come for a rite (the brandy/bread-rite for example), or the believer is in need for other services/blessings. He goes to the shrine nearby, does the rite/sacrifices money for blessing/buys potions/talks to the priest and goes back to his home - alone.
By far not every town has a place where a whole fellowship can participate in a church service/rite. Vvardenfell has only one: ebonheart.



I'll take the liberty of directly editing my translations directly into this post, I hope you don't mind. ~Gnomey

I just translated the rites section - NathanJ
Finished

[Ironed Maidens]

While I can't speak for everyone here, in the future submitting any work in English would be preferred (for me, at least). We are an English project (at least first and foremost) and to be quite honest, writing something in another language is pretty useless to most of us here, and it's just extra work required to review it. Not to disrespect as I know English isn't everyone's first language, but keep in mind in the future that we are working on an English-speaking basis here.

[Gnomey]

While I agree that ideas should be submitted in English, I see no problem in posting work in progress ideas in spoiler tags, so that for one thing people who know the language can already read it, and for another that people who know the language might help translate it. That's what NathanJ is doing here. Naturally the text will need to be translated before it can properly be discussed; we're not expecting everyone to read German or run the text through Google translate and try and piece it out from there.

[NathanJ]

Ha, this translation is way better than I could ever do that thanks dude^^ are you german??
edit: Wait. I dont even know some of those phrases. However.

[NathanJ]

Okay, everything translated. Thank you gnomey for helping me!
I have added and shortened what I was translating a bit.

[NathanJ]

An information that got lost in converting a brainstorming file into a more concrete was this: Its not important, of which rank an NPC is, who offers the priest service. Further stands in ald'ruhn, mages guild a priest without a faction, and in the buckmoth legion fort there is a member of the legion standing at the altar.

[Gnomey]

-Rites
One could argue that Bethesda simply overlooked the six bottles of alcohol in Fort Frostmoth, but I suppose that's a dull explanation. Actually, come to think of it, Shein's ID is comberry 'wine', which gives further credence to a parallel with Communion; I was originally bothered because Shein is a local Dunmer beverage, which one would not expect to find used in Imperial rites, but that explains things. I can certainly see the Imperial Cult adopting local wines for its rites, both due to Imperial thrift and practicality as well as as a sign of tolerance and acceptance.
Running with that idea, then, which I think we could certainly do, my first thought would be simply turning the practice of Communion on its head: rather than consuming the bread and wine, taking the Nine into themselves, (which would be superfluous as they are descended from the Nine Divines), worshipers symbolically offer their flesh and blood to the Nine Divines, either as a way of becoming closer to the Nine, or as a way of symbolically reciprocating the original act of self-sacrifice by the Nine, or probably both. The would also provide a nice opportunity for non-Imperials finding their practices creepy and distasteful, similarly to how a lot of people found -- and no doubt still find -- the practice of Communion to be creepy and distasteful. Wood Elves would probably consider it rather tame, though, I guess.
Perhaps that sort of 'you scratch my back I scratch yours' attitude could be further incorporated into the worship; it seems typically Imperial to me. For example: I 'bless' you with 'riches' (a money offering), you bless me with health.

-Shrines
I wouldn't reach any conclusions from Wikipedia definitions. For example another set of definitions: [url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shrine]Shrine[/url], [url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chapel]Chapel[/url]. A lot of overlap, but I think the differences are important. Imperial Cult shrines have tapestries of several Divines, and, unlike the Tribunal shrines, all Imperial altars provide the same blessing; there is no 'blessing of Kynareth' or 'blessing of Zenithar'. To me, that implies the shrines are not dedicated to a certain being, but rather nine. 'Chapel' might also operate under a similarly broad meaning.

Beyond that, I agree with your conclusions.

(And I'm part German. My German is pretty rusty, though, so if I were asked to translate the other way around I'd have had a harder time of it).

[NathanJ]

Yes, it was also my thought that imperial cult shrines are not dedicated to a certain single deity but to all divines - but to give believers in vvardenfell a place where one can worship and at the same time not to have to build up whole chapels (possibly because there are simply not enough believers in vvardenfell to make that necessary, most are temple-believers and the imperials seem to be usually not that religious that they try to do rites and such very regularly), those little shrines (dedicated to the nine) were installed, only in ebonheart, the "capital" of the empire in Vvardenfell there is a chapel plus fellowship.

I like the idea with the "I bless you with wealth, you bless me with health", because it truely helps the nine keeping some control over the world, because the offered money goes into the cash box of the cult, the "executing arm" of the nine.
With the communion, simply turning it round would possibly be not enough to make it really unique, because it still has the bread=flesh, wine=blood meaning.

great to hear that my work goes into the right direction^^. My further plans are the following:

-looking at the rank structure of the IC
-looking at the individual quests and their dialogues
...to get more info about internal cult business and organisation.

[NathanJ]

Update: Im currently writing on a document which is trying to analyze the rank structure of the IC in order to find useful information about it. The Approach is the following:

I act on the assumption of a theoretical cult system that is implied by rank names taken from real terms, reconstructed through combining matching information and excluding unmatching.

So I take one rank name, look what it means in reality and ask the following questions:
- where are parallels to known IC matters
- where are limitations of giving info and differences of the given term in reference to the cult
- what information can those parallels and unparralels provide about the cult

...plus looking at arrangement and order of the ranks of course.



The reason for this is, that I believe that names like "acolyte", "theurgist" or "invoker" are very meaningful and can provide useful information about cult matters. At the other hand those terms are originally used in a non-fantasy (real^^) context, so if I want to gather some info from these, I have to look at their real origin.

I have already written some interesting things, and Im going to release the translation step by step (it just feels better like this)

[Ateiggaer]

Hello NathanJ!

I like the surgical, precise, analytically approch you have on the topic. Quite sophisticated. Must be a german thing.

No, but seriously keep it up!

[EJRS]

Oh, and this is the flyer:
[...]How can a woman love her husband, if she doesnt honor the one, who makes her able to?"

I don't know if you are still proposing to use this flyer, but I reacted at this line.
Apart from it being a rather sexist line, I don't really recall anything in the game that argues for this reflecting a core value among either Imperials or Dunmer. "How can one love ones spouse, if one does not honor the one who makes one able to?" would be one thing: that reflects a rather general value if the cultures are accepted to be based around strong marital relationships, which would seem to be the case, at least to some extent. But I don't really see why this argument would be in favor of the Imperial cult. If anything, the Tribunal temple seems to be the one more geared towards strong family bonds of the two.

Also, a thing that has been touched upon in the discussion, but I feel can't be clarified enough: in the world of Tamriel, competition between religions wouldn't be a question of which religion is true in the sense of it being a belief in something real, since all the dieties worshipped definitely exist and have a tangible influence on the world.
Faith should probably be understood less in a religious sense, and more in the sense that we would use it when we say, for example, that we have faith in the current prime minister or the current government.
This difference would profoundly change the game of being a missionary and what angles of attack would be used.

Other than that, your enthusiasm is really infectious, and there are some nice concepts being tossed around here.

[NathanJ]

Hi there, thanks guys for the good feedback! I can always use some^^

To answer to your post EJRS, this flyer has two main influences: The cults theology of course and the character of Marcus Antellius who is someone with very special opinions and habits. One of those habits is his sexist tendencies. At first, before his carrier in the cult (which is more like becoming a monk in a julianos dedicated monastery in Cyrodiil and then suddenly getting sent to morrowind by julianos to preach), he hadnt much success at the other sex - because he had serious problems with self-confidence, which resulted from a problematic and emotionally distant relationship with his father. And, well, after becoming a monk, he was a monk - and whether it was forbidden for him to have something like a relationship or sex (which I dont know exactly) or not, he plead of his personal wish to live without wealth and fleshly desires. The result of this was a subconscious antipathy against women (if I cant have it, at least it shall suffer!). This shows up in the sentence you quoted. Instead of telling this simply to all people he explicitely addresses women and puts the pressure on them. If you asked Antellius about that sentence he would just say "Well, of course, the men are adressed too. I meant this only as an example"
At the other hand, the IC associates women with beauty and love (Dibella and Mara), and the chief deity, Akatosh, (dragon god of time) can be interprted as genderless. I dont think the IC has sexist tendencies. And no, nor have I .

And your point about the "right" religion is a good one. Of course, every deity in TES (exept Lorkhan, well, Jyggalag - and Trinimac, at least in his former form and character) is actually there. But firstly, the imperial cult sees itself superior to every other religion (exept MAYBE the tribunal, but the fact, that the IC accepts its kind of "enlightment" has a more political reason) and tries to bring its kind of "enlightment" to everyone in the provinces (see "for my gods and emperor" and the IC-quest on Solstheim, the one with the missionary). Secondly its more the question of "Which deity protects me better?". The worshippers of boethiah tend to die rather quickly, dont they?^^

[NathanJ]

Finally! Now I can finally release the first part of the translation of my favourite document these days^^. Here we go:

"The following text contains very special, maybe unexpected information. I tried to use only the info that is most likely influencing the IC, and to avoid everything thats not fitting into the context. But if you find anything that doesnt fit, reply. Aside from that, this is not a final document. There is more info to come. But everyone is invited to contribute with ideas and suggestions, to advance the whole thing, for its my goal to get the IC to become finished in lore one day, and to help the discussion come to a satisfying end, so that we can put it aside and begin with the next one^^.

This text shall show my conclusions made from the names and the arrangement of the IC-ranks. Those conclusions still dont include combined conclusions from other info I gathered while writing this document, but firstly only the most obvious, which are already interesting too.
I will begin with a little digression about PC- and NPC- rank structure which is in many cases handled different (the PC- rank structure is handled more simply, because of a more simple gameplay-flow). Then Ill explain the concept of the Lay Member and its place in the IC.
The Part in the middle will contain the explanation of the ten ranks and their meaning in the IC, my separation of them into three parts (the scholastic ranks (1-6), the charismatic ranks (7-9) and the leader Primate (yes, as far as I investigated, the IC-primate should be actually a leader)) and the exact breakdown of every rank.
The breakdown works like this:
At first I look what the rank name means in reality, and then I try to find its place in the IC, including fiting and excluding not fitting info.
The last parts are firstly the attempt to put the gathered new infos about the cult in order and to conclude the most obvious things from them.
Then I will develop my Theory of the selected ranks and my Theory of universality of the hierarchy, two theories that eliminate each other, but maybe bring us nearer to the truth about how the Lay Member ranks work inside the cult as a whole."

[NathanJ]

Second part, the PC- and NPC handling of the rank structure

"PC- and NPC- rank structure

My theory is, that for the PC is used a more simple (for the sake of a good gameplay flow) system of the hierarchies in comparison to the hierarchies the NPCs are in. Arguments for this are the ability of being a mouth of a telvanni master without being forced to stay at the telvanni council house forever, the fact that you can be an oracle of the IC without ever having a vision or a similar experience of divination, that you can join more than one faction at the same time - an NPC can only be a member in one faction or that an NPC can NEVER be promoted. One can expand this argumentation beyond the factions onto the fact that you can actually kill a god, vivec, with rather conventional methods or every single leader of every faction in vvardenfell without causing a political collapse of the whole province - it was simply too hard to develop.

But the ingame-books, dialogues and quests let one look into a world that goes beyond the technical limitations of the game TESIII.

So from this difference I infer that at the other hand the NPCs live a different, lore-consistent life without gameplay-limitations, which, because of developing difficulties can only be described by the game itself. so lets call this "the NPCs secret life before the players face" (sounds like a soap opera ;p).

Im going to try to reconstruct this secret life in the special case of the IC by the methods I mentioned before."

[NathanJ]

Part three

"The concept Lay Member



From ingame-dialogues:
"Lay servants serve the Imperial cult by doing various tasks. (...) See Synnolian Tunifus to become a lay healer. See Iulus Truptor to become an almoner -- a fund raiser. See Kaye to become a shrine sergeant (...)"

"Lay healers gather ingredients for health and healing potions, and minister to the sick and hurt in poor and isolated communities"
"Almoners gather alms from members and friends of the faith. We depend on donations to fund most of our good works."
"A shrine sergeant helps keep order at the shrines, carries messages and packages, and sometimes escorts priests and lay servants on dangerous missions."

As one can see, Lay servants do some of the most basic (at least in case of lay healers and almoners) and most necessary tasks in the cult. The tasks the lay servants do are essential for the cults success. And because of their ability to travel freely and not being bound to any limitation except the very basic faction rules they are the ones who are most able to do the job.

At the other hand a lay member has the option to be promoted - nine times! So he has quiet a few opportunities for advancement.
Though he has to work hard for that, like in every faction - and in the case of the IC its the transformation from a religious, eager citizen to an irregular but serious spiritual leader.

So from these facts I infer that the lay members are more than just some people who are not able to join the cult "entirely" but want to do something for their gods and make a compromise by being just some "layman doing the cults dirty work" instead of becoming a full member.
The lay servants are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to the cults inner politics, no more, no less - because the cult is reliant on people from outside."

[Gnomey]

Not too much I can comment on so far; it all looks solid.

I'm still not entirely sure whether the player stays a lay servant throughout, or whether the player at some point is accepted into the cult hierarchy, but as a sort of irregular.
Basically, whether the idea behind lay servants is that they can reach high positions in the cult, or whether the player is an exception who is allowed to continue to do his thing even though, at the higher rank, he is technically no longer a lay servant and should be obsessing over an altar all day or something, in the same way that as a Telvanni Mouth he should really be standing around in the council house all day.

If it's the latter situation, it might be worthwhile to make the transition between lay servant and full cult servant clearer.

As for which one is preferable, I actual think I prefer the idea that lay servants can rise up to high ranks. Especially for a missionary cult, I think it makes sense for the Imperials to try and accommodate all sorts into their hierarchy.

[NathanJ]

Well, youre right, it would certainly be more logical that a high rank IC-member is not a lay servant, because that term simply sounds too weak for that. I also see, as one can see in the upcoming parts, that the lay member goes through a very special and strong growth in both knowledge and spirituality while he becomes a high rank member.
But every time I think of the possibility of the lay servant at some point becoming more, I remember that dialogue the player gets when he asks to be promoted when he is already primate:
"You have already risen to the highest rank available to a lay servant of the Imperial cult."
So it says "im sorry, you are a lay servant, and lay servants can only become primate"

Even without that dialogue, the parameters that force the player to be only a lay member instead of "fully" join the cult dont change while rising in the hierarchy, the player has always the ability to live his life outside the cult and to do the lay servant jobs.
As far as I see that, the only - but good - argument for the player becoming something more like a lay servant at one point is the hierarchy itself, which seems to describe a long way to a very (politically) powerful rank at the end. But together with the other arguments its more likely that the lay servant is some kind of a subclass in the IC with its own characteristics. A part of my document is about those characteristics, im going to translate it soon

[NathanJ]

Fourth part of the document, i have decided to explain those two theories I had about the lay servant now instead at the end of the document, because it fits more into this place.

""You have already risen to the highest rank available to a lay servant of the Imperial cult."

The PC is only a lay servant AND a high ranking member of the IC. So if we have to accept both facts, how do we handle that?

there are three possibilities

- we explain the problem. The player is actually of a very high and politically powerful rank, but officially still a lay servant. Its a little bit like the status of the lay servant is an organisatoric relict, a compromise that has a historical origin - lets say at some point the status of the lay member was invented and applied. Then, as the class of the lay member gained more power in the cults inner politics, it was granted more rights and possibilities for advancement - until an at the end quite high rank was available.
- we hush up the problem. By smartly avoiding the contact with the problem we keep it out of the way. That would be simple, every quest and dialogue had to do that, but it also would take the chance away to let the player look deeper inside the cult. I dont like this idea.
- we deny the problem and invent something new for that. While this wouldnt be serve lore-consistency in principe, one can do that carefully by inventing/changing minimal things that direct the problem into the "at rank X, the lay servant becomes a full cult servant".

I like the first one, because its plausible while leaving the given facts as they are.

Is the ingame-IC-hierarchy actually similar or equal to the actual cult hierarchy or are they different? Its not entirely proven but:
I dont think, the ingame-IC-hierarchy is made of ranks that are exclusive for the lay member class. Instead of that, I believe those have some relationship to the official hierarchy. While I believe in the historic origin of the lay member class like explained above, I believe the lay members are somehow integrated in the hierarchy having some sort of sub-hierarchy. The strongest argument for that is that the names of the ranks are so meaningful and significant for the cults inner events that I have to ask: If the given rank names are NOT official and lay-mamber-exclusive, then the actual hierarchy has to be without the acolyte, an important person in complex cult rites, and the theurgist and oracle who seem to be important people for the whole cult.

1. The theory of the selected ranks

This theory says that the lay-member-hierarchy is only a sequence of ranks and areas of responsability, that are compatible with the life of an "adventurer". So its an artificial "mock hierarchy", jumping from state to state and skipping various other ranks.

2.The theory of the universality of hierarchy

This theory says the following:
lets say two people want to join the cult. Both are in the same hierarchy and begin with the rank "layman", just as the ingame-faction is like, but with different states - the first is the full member and the second is the lay member. they rise in the hierarchy until they reacht the tenth rank, primate - and the full member has the option to raise higher, and the lay member has not.
So the universality of the hierarchy means that its not important if you are a lay member or a full member, the hierarchy is universal, but a lay member is only granted to become a primate.

The good thing about these theories is, that the actual cult hierarchy that the player has no access to, includes every rank which is also available for him. The converse argument from this is (remember: the ingame faction is only called "imperial cult" and not "lay member class of the imperial cult" ) that every NPC that belongs to the cult does not necessarily has to be a lay member - maybe he belongs to the actual cult hierarchy and has incidentally a rank that is also available for lay members."

[NathanJ]

Im sorry for the chaotic fourth part, its kind of a patchwork of the original document, things we discussed over the days, the ideas that came while writing it and my lacking in concentration. However, I have thought about the lay member a second time and I had a little flash of wit while i was translating the fifth part of my document. Its coming up soon

I had been used the terms "lay member" and "lay servants" synonymously, but I believe that those two are not the same.
from dialogues:

(lay member)
We accept all citizens of good character and earnest faith. We ask only a one-time pledge of 50 drakes to aid us in our good works. Thereafter, the only cost of membership comes when you use a healing altar -- modest and nominal fees which help us in our mission to bring the words and blessings of the Nine to those less fortunate than ourselves. Do you wish to join the Imperial Cult?

(join the IC)
You are now a %NextPCRank in the Imperial Cult. Welcome, %PCName, to our community, and may your rejoice in its blessings. Can I tell you about our services? Or, if you can donate more time and effort, would you like to become a lay servant?

(lay servant (1))
It is not possible to become a priest or consecrated cleric without joining cult orders. You would be forced to devote yourself full time to the Imperial Cult, which doesn't suit adventurous people like yourself. But we do need lay servants -- earnest laymen dedicated to serving the Nine -- for certain unglamorous but spiritually rewarding tasks. At present we need almoners to serve Zenithar, lay healers to serve Mara, and shrine sergeants to serve Stendarr.

(lay servant (2))
Lay servants serve the Imperial cult by doing various tasks. Not a lot of excitement, but safe, honorable, and rewarding. First you have to join the Imperial cult, then go to the Imperial Chapels in Ebonheart to get work. See Synnolian Tunifus to become a lay healer. See Iulus Truptor to become an almoner -- a fund raiser. See Kaye to become a shrine sergeant -- they do the more dangerous jobs.

So after you have become a member of the cult you get asked if you want to become a lay servant. As you can see in (lay servant (1)) they say lay servants are laymen serving the nine. I think the "layman" mentioned there is a synonym of lay member and not the first rank of the hierarchy (because as novice... you can do lay servant-jobs too)

[NathanJ]

Fifth part:

"Rank 1-7, the scholastic ranks

I called these the scholastic ranks because the key to be promoted here seems to be, aside from being an eager member of the cult, intensive study.

1. Layman

When somebody hears the word "layman" today, he thinks of a person who has no knowledge about a specific topic.
The word "layman" originally comes from old greek "laos" ((a) people), over "laikos" (someone who belongs to the people) and then church latin "laicus" (the (church) layman). So the word was first imported from greek to latin and then while the latin became the "church latin" over the centuries it became a specific term in church latin - a church member who doesnt belong to the clergy (the opposite of "laicus" was "clericus").
Aside from that the meaning of the word layman for a person who hasnt any knowledge about a topic originated from the fact that in medieval times education was for poor people only available through a carrier in the church.
So the word "layman" has two meanings: Firstly someone who is untaught in a certain topic and secondly a member of the (catholic) church who is not a cleric.

In the so called "codex of the canonic law" (vatican, catholic church) its written as follows:
"cann. 207 â€â€￾ § 1. (...) in the church there are chaplain office-bearer who in the law are called clerics, the remaining are called laymen"

Other churches, which are using the same term, use it similarly. The protestant churches, which have numerous different denominations that are in comparison to the catholic church very small, dont use the term "layman" as an official description of a certain kind of member. The terms "clergy" or "cleric" are not used by protestant churches as well.

So the term layman in church context describes a person who is through baptism a member of the church but not an office-bearer. The layman is only someone who visits the church as a passive participant in the church service, or in plain language: the average believer who goes to church service every sunday (or not) and is officially member of the fellowship.

The layman in the IC:

While the IC is strongly influenced by the catholic church, it would certainly fit into context if we took the religious meaning of "layman". But the other option, someone who is untaught in a certain topic, is possible as well - maybe he/she is new to the cult and doesnt know anything about the further customs beyond "we believe in nine gods". I will try to look at both options.

The untaught/unaware:


"... a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layperson)
"a person who is not a member of a given profession, as law or medicine. " (http://dictionary.reference.com)
" someone who is not ?trained in or does not have a ?detailed ?knowledge of a ?particular ?subject" (http://dictionary.cambridge.org)

So in this definition a layman is someone who has no knowledge / is not qualified in a certain topic/profession.

So in this case "layman" is in its nature no official title but a description of actually given circumstances. If we say the IC uses this term with this definition AS an official title, as far as I see it, we would prefer an in this context unmatching definition over the more likely without really good arguments.

The Layman as a member of the churchly laity

We could display the layman just like in reality. Again: tha layman in the catholic church is someone who is a member but not a cleric - and "cleric" is a word that describes someone who officially works in the church (is an office-bearer), so a layman does no actual job in the church (at least not officially) - he/she only visits the church service.

I have written in an earlier document that in the IC the normal believer lives his life outside the shrine and the cult and tends to visit the shrine only on occasion.
The idea suggests itself here that every common believer of the cult could be called a layman.
But as far as I see that its not necessary to join the cult to participate in rites or to do offerings.
So there is for every believer the option to join the cult as a lay member and to get the official rank "layman" but its not a must for participating in rites and happenings in the cult (so its more like in modern times, one can participate in catholic church service without membership too - in medieval times it was a little more difficult (extra ecclesiam nulla salus = outside of the (catholic) church no salvation)).

If we say there are two groups of believers who only participate in rites and do offerings and are not working for the cult, non-members and lay members, layman rank, then the difference between those two is that the members are explicitely supporting the cult with a small amount of money (50 drakes) and their official membership, to "make it official". The believer who decides to join the cult as a lay member (and not yet lay servant) wants the society to see that he/she is supporting the cult, its faith and its work. He/she stands up for his/her faith."

[NathanJ]

Before I release the next part, let me explain my plans for this.. em.. monster.

while these documents are ridiculously huge and it cannot be expected that everybody who wants to design quests or whatever for the IC actually reads the whole thing, I had the following idea:
I will, when I have finished my analysis and breakdowns release a short summary of my results without any argumentation or explanation and use my analysis with the argumentation as a reference work (if someone wonders why I decided to see something like I see it, and not different - then we can discuss too, but its more efficient if I seperate the argumentations from the actual results for the sake of a smooth workflow).

After my analysis I will try to expand the lore at the points that couldnt be cleared by looking at the given info, so at the gaps open for speculation. On this part I will work self-sufficient as well until someone participates or one of the lead devs stops me but that are dreams of the future right now.

[Gnomey]

"You have already risen to the highest rank available to a lay servant of the Imperial cult."

Ah yeah, that's the line I was missing.

Come to think of it, though, as part of a religious organization 'servant' does not necessarily imply a low rank, as everyone in the organization serves the 'gods and emperor'; focusing too much on the word 'servant' might simply serve to mislead us.
And as far as the 'lay' part is concerned, I think you miss an important point in the ecclesiastic meaning of 'layman'; the focus is if the member is an office-bearer, or ordained. A member without an official office can still perform important functions. The question is rather what the nature of the office is.
For instance, in a feudal monarchy, the nobles are equivalent to the clergy and form a hierarchical structure with the royalty at the top. However, depending on the time and place, people of common birth could still reach very high positions in government, even to the point of effectively outranking lower nobility. They are, then, the laymen. Now, again depending on the time and place, they could be given a title of nobility and effectively become nobles themselves, and for certain functions that might be required, for instance in the case of English parliament to serve in the House of Lords. That particular route is locked off to the player, however.
According to this wikipedia page, the Anglican Church especially seems to have a wide and rather eclectic variety of functions that are open to the laity, which I think serves as a pretty nice parallel for the Imperial Cult. 'Acolyte' is even named as one of those functions.
So what is the distinction between the clergy and laity in the case of the Imperial Cult? The distinction could be, for instance, some sort of full initiation, through certain rites and ceremonies. Or, to wander closer to in-game dialogue, that the clergy in some way tie themselves to their service; they are obliged to fulfill their functions, whereas lay members are free to fulfill their functions. As an extension of that, there's always the possibility that clergy are also in some way tied to the Imperial government, essentially as civil servants, whereas lay members are simply devout citizens that serve the cult.

As for the player being restricted in faction advancement due to 'only' being a lay servant while still reaching a high rank, I basically agree with the first solution, but with a bit of a twist: reflecting the above, 'lay servant' isn't necessarily an inferior position, just an alternate position. Lay servants are intended to be able to rise up in the hierarchy to a high rank. Only the very highest ranks are restricted, and those might not even be based in the provinces.
The highest rank of the Imperial Cult might officially be the Emperor (roughly equivalent to the Holy Roman Emperor, but directly above rather than directly below the 'pope'; perhaps closer to Justinian I), and then after the Emperor either in name or in practice the Archbishop of the One (equivalent to the pope), and then after the Archbishop probably the bishops, possibly equivalent to Catholic cardinals. All of those ranks, except obviously the Emperor, would be reserved to the clergy, but the Primate wouldn't be far behind in importance, at least to the bishops.

I think I like your theory of selected ranks the best, by the way. I don't think the Imperial Cult ranks reflect a full organizational structure; it's a good hierarchy for a partially initiated member of the cult, but as a full hierarchy I see a lot of gaps.
Of course, there is a certain inconvenience in trying to reflect any additional ranks outside of the lay hierarchy in-game, but that's mostly a question of dialogue.

[NathanJ]

Well, its written in the codex of canonical law (ive citated above) that "layman" is not an office. Of course, everybody can help in the church at tasks which he/she is qualified for, but the point is that it would not official but irregular.

And I separated the "lay member" and the "laity". You stay "lay member" forever (and you are "lay servant" while you do jobs for lay servants - that state seems to be connected with actual activities) but are a member of the "laity" only at the layman rank. This is the only possibility I had when interpreting the whole rank structure while leaving every single fact as it is. I know its a little strange but oddity was one of the results Ive got while analyzing the rank structure...
And yes, I originally assumed that the "lay servant" rises in a logically crafted hierarchy, because something else seemed not fitting to me. But I must admit that didnt think about it explicitely (except in my theory of selected ranks, which I almost discarded). If we would say the theory of the selected ranks is true, then maybe the hierarchy had been growing over the history to a not logical, but practical thing. What I dont like about this is that its speculation. Maybe this is one of the parts where speculation is simply needed.

Question: You say you are part german, are you interested in seeing the whole original document? Maybe you want to form a picture of that yourself.

[Gnomey]

As far as seeing the whole document is concerned, I think I'm happy just keeping up with your posts here for the time being; at the moment it's a bit more convenient for me to read your findings in bite sized portions, which this thread already provides.

As far as speculation is concerned, I feel as though I should make it clear that we don't actually need to stringently follow the vanilla game in its representation of the Imperial Cult.
I do, however, think it's very useful and important to first acquaint ourselves with Bethesda's vision for the faction before we develop our own, for two primary reasons: first of all, if we do want to go with a different vision, we'll know what in-game information we'll need to change or work around so that our vision can be consistently implemented in-game. Second of all, while it's easy to completely dismiss unfamiliar concepts and come up with ones own, that carries the risk of discarding really good ideas that are worth holding on to.
As such, while I do think that, for the time being, it's best to try and stay consistent with the source material, once you have finished compiling and posting your observations I think we should go about with the conclusions pretty freely, keeping the things we like and changing the things we don't like.
In general, I think very intentionally, non-Dunmer institutions and races tend to be portrayed in a very flat manner in Morrowind; especially the Empire, which visually is represented largely as generic medieval Europeans (or in Morrowind dialogue 'as one might expect to see in High Rock') with some Roman (or I suppose Colovian) influences. It is made more familiar so that Morrowind can seem stranger in comparison. That works well because Vvardenfell is so small, and non-Dunmer presence in Vvardenfell even smaller. Due to the sheer scale of TR, though, I think we'll need to dig a little deeper, or we'll stretch the shallow characterization far thinner than it was ever meant to be stretched.

[NathanJ]

WAAAH, then I have completely (okay, just a little ) misunderstood the purpose of this mod. I actually thought that the expansion this mod will provide will be an exact expansion concerning every little bit of lore, described by quests, dialogues and ingame-books that are (as far as managable) to the very last line consistent to the original game. So no logical failures while leaving the vanilla game as it is (only changing the MOST necessary things - even if some of those most necessary are as radical as inventing new architectural designs for house dres). My analysis of the rank structure shows at some places an inner logic of what the original game says about the IC implicitely what Bethesda maybe never thought of. So thats maybe not a conscious part of their original vision.

But okay, Ill keep you updated. After the rank structure there are still quite a few approaches I can attack the IC with.

[NathanJ]

Before I release the next part, let me add a short analysis of the whole religious structure of the cyrodiilic religion.

From dialogues:

(julianos)
"Julianos, God of Wisdom and Logic, is the deity of literature, law, history, sorcery, enchantment, and alchemy. Monastic orders founded by Tiber Septim and dedicated to Julianos are the keepers of the Elder Scrolls."

(dibella)
"Dibella, the Goddess of Beauty, is the most popular god of the Nine Divines. In Cyrodiil, she has nearly a dozen different cults, some devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, and others to erotic instruction."

From Books:

From For my gods and emperor:
The missionary arm of the great faiths, the Imperial cult brings divine inspiration and consolation to the Empire's remote provinces.
So there are at one side the "great faiths" - I think those are the alessian order and the various different cults and monastic orders mentioned in the dialogues. At the other hand the imperial cult defines itself as the "missionary arm of the great faiths". The book "reflections on cult worship" writes about the "heartlanders" religious characteristics as they had various "subcults". This book does not talk about an uniform imperial cult - interesting, though it was written in vos, on vvardenfell, where the only imperial religious organisation IS an uniform institution. The book only writes about the "eight divines" and at another place about the "Imperial Cult of Tiber Septim", which together implies that the divinity of talos may be controversial, or is said to be different than the divinity of the eight. The fact that "Imperial Cult" is capitalized here is interesting as well, this could imply that "Imperial Cult of Tiber Septim" is a proper name, maybe the official name of the Talos cult. "The Imperial City of Cyrodiil alone boasts a vast host of saints and holy spirits" says the book "varietes of faith" together with the apologise for not having a complete list of all worshipped and honored spirits and saints.

So I think the religious structure of the imperial "state religion" is something like an ecumenical union with the IC as a sub organisation (the "missionary arm" that simply stands for the very basic creed that every cult shares - founded with the goal of bringing the faith to the provinces). It can also be like the different cults exist side by side without a shared "command structure", they just live their faiths while accepting the others. The thing thats uniting those would be more like a verbal agreement or an unwritten law given long time ago, instead of having things like a council or something like that. One day somebody from one of those cults decided to bring the faith of the eight/nine to the provinces and founded the IC as an "ecumenic project".

edit: "the Imperial Cult of Tiber Septim", of course, it could be the IC of Vvardenfell as well.. This would mean that this "of Tiber Septim" would mean that its somehow associated with the emperor Tiber Septim (and not the god, then - I suppose - he would be called talos), maybe he has founded the IC? So many questions, so many possibilities..

edit2: "the eight divines", maybe this term is used to describe the cults that are older than the empire, so are originally from a time before the apotheosis of talos.
OR its the attempt to summarize all cults which worship single deities of the pantheon - but why not include the talos-cult?

[NathanJ]

Sixth part:

"2. novice

The word "novice" has its origin in the latin word "noviter" (new(ly))., or more precise in its usage in the Rule of St. Benedict (The text that the Order of Saint Benedict observes). There its written like this (chapter 58, 1):
„Noviter veniens quis ad conversationem, non ei facilis tribuatur ingressus (Analogously: When someone new comes and wants to begin the claustral life, his access shall not be granted easily).

So the usage of the word novice has its origin in the old christian claustral culture. From that the word was transferred, first into other religions which have a similar claustral culture but other, original, terms for new members, and then into various other topics, in which it always means someone new.
To stay at the monastery, there the novice is someone who gets taught in various topics like bible studies, church- and order history and similar things. In its nature the novicity is a stage of test, in which a novice is tested, if he is able to keep the orders vow and to live the claustral life long-term.
Also this time shall be a chance for the novice to get to know his new situation and its various facets, to get a better understanding in the decision if he/she wants to live that life really.

So the novicity is originally a probationary period of a new member of a monastery.

Other uses of the term "novice", as mentioned above, is in a handicraft for an apprentice or sometimes in a eastern martial art for an apprentice as well.

The possible role of the novice in the IC:
In the IC are two options possible. The apprentice or the gerneralized claustral novice.

The Monk to-be:
We know, the IC is NOT a monastery and there are (for the player) no similar circumstances that make the term novice similar to the real world usage in a monastery. In fact its the opposite: They say you cant live a life completely devoted to the cult, which makes the novicity as a probationary period for new members - because its such a life full of privation that its hard to bear up - unnecessary.

EDIT: I had forgotten to say here that one must generalize the term novice to simply someone new, to make it fully compatible with the IC-matter. Its said at other places in the text but this is the right place for it ))

The apprentice:
in relation to a later rank - the adept - its a really interesting option.

Adept means somebody who is adept (of course) in something secret or very hard to learn / to achieve. Its used for example in alchemy, esotericism, martial arts...

In a later part of this document I deal with that rank further. For now its enough to know that in some of the handicrafts/professions where novice can be used adept can be used as well (for someone who has reached a certain skill level). So if we take this and think a few steps forward, the novice can be an apprentice of either secrets or issues that are difficult to learn - cult related. These may be certain (maybe theurgic, see the rank "theurgist") rites or theology. Its also good to mention at this point that in daggerfall (TES 2) the temples of julianos are called "schools" and were in fact really more like academies as temples. I dont know what is to be learned there, its speculation, but what is no speculation is that we have two possibilities in understanding the rank novice: The generalized claustral novice, who has to be simply "someone new" or the apprentice in certain, unknown cult issues.

I tend to the latter, because it has more crosslinks to other ranks and contributes an organic whole of the hierarchy, while the "newbie" seems pretty much vague and out of place after the layman."

[NathanJ]

Seventh part:

"3. initiate

initiate = „a person who has been initiated“ (dictionary.com).
Initiation rites are in many cultures all over the world, always meaning a rite that officially announces a person being a new member of a certain society.


The initiate in the IC:
This simply implies some unknown kind of initiation rite, which the initiate has gone through. Connected with the IC-mysteries Novice, Adept, theurgist imply it speaks for a certain element in those mysteries - A society the initiate joined and the initiation which is part of the theoretical IC-doctrine.

4. Acolyte

The acolyte was the highest of the catholic minor orders until they were abolished in 1972, which didnt change their actual meaning in church service and politics, it was more a bureaucratic change.

The acolyte is taught in certain processes during the mass and executes them (together with other acolytes, they are rarely alone). The acolytes support the priest at leading the mass and doing the rites (lighing candles, carrying the wine, helping distributing altar bread, carrying the missal...).
In the catholic church he is also associated with the things standing on the altar (he is also called altar boy).

So the acolyte helps at doing the rites but without fullfilling leading functions.


The acolyte in the IC:
The fact that the IC has an acolyte implies that it has a rite culture that is complex enough to make people necessary who are specialized in doing various handles while helping a priest doing a rite/church service or whatever.

Now the only known rites are the offering for a blessing, which can be done alone, and the brandy rite, whichs exact appearance is unknown."

I think I will post a little text about possible rites/prayers/church services in the IC soon.

[NathanJ]

Before I release the next part, let me shortly summarize things I learned before I forget them.

What we have is a polytheistic cult with a mysterious element (influence from mystery schools of all kind (novice - adept)) and an influence from ancient greek polytheismic customs (the theurgy, the oracle). The mysteries in the doctrine/customs of the IC can be discovered by the members through hard studies. Influence in the optical part (altars, candles, bread + wine lying on the altars, in oblivion the churches, stain glass windows) and the organisational (layman, acolyte, primate) comes from the catholic church.

OK, here we go:
eightth part:

"5. Adept

Adept (from latin adeptio "attainment, achievement", or adeptus "someone who achieved something") is a term that describes a person or a student/apprentice who is adept (of course) in an esoteric doctrine, hermetism or in mysteries.

In the broader sense an adept is someone who had been taught by a master in his arts or science, had studied his teachings and can call himself an expert of his philosophy and/or insight.

In alchemy the term adept was used for those who had found the secret to make the philosophers stone or at least should have had the knowledge about it by having studied the ancient scriptures for a long time.

In the mystery schools of the antiquity, for example in the ancient egypt (the isis- and osiris cult and others) and in ancient greece (eleusinian mysteries), those were called adepts, who had passed the initiation and therefore had been adept in sacred, secret knowledge.

In todays esoteric language usage adepts are called those who are familiar with an esoteric system and are or pretend to successfully using it.

The advanced students of some asian martial arts, like karate, are called adepts as well.



The meanings of "adept" share one thing: they describe a person who has knowledge (or sometimes skills) which is out of reach for the normal person because its either secret or very hard to achieve. This concerns the ancient mystery schools (whichs secrets were hidden so well that even todays scientist can only speculate about them), the esoteric systems (which take a lot of work to master them because of their complexity), the secret of making the philosophers stone (that alchemists tried to make by trial and error and through studying the ancient scriptures) and last but not least the rank in the hierarchies of various orders and lodges which have various customs that are kept secret.

The adept in the IC:

The aspect of the secrecy fits into what the book "overview of gods and worship" says, that the various cults keep their special rites and customs hidden.

(„It has also been reported that priests of high ranking in their temples may on occasion call upon their Deity for blessings or help in time of need. The exact nature of such contact and the blessings bestowed is given to much speculation, as the temples hold such associations secret and holy.“)

The book doesnt mention the IC, but does not exclude it as well. That lets the analysis become much harder. The book only says "the temples", which means, when taken literally, "all temples". Because such an absolute judgement is rather unlikely, I replace it to "most temples", because there are always exceptions. But its still the question, if the IC or the cults that are forming the "great faiths" of for my gods and emperor are included in those "most temples" or not.

Could it be, that there are teachings/rites in the IC that are not accessible for the commonality, either if they are secret or hard to learn - and which the adept is taught in? If thats the case, there is nowhere in the game anything providing further information about that theoretical secret doctrine.
But the cult, as shown in the game, is like an empty envelope, like a skeleton made of a few shrines, altars which provide blessings, people who are priests (and say their task is to "advocate to the gods on behalf of our cult members" - and not more) and healers, standing around and doing nothing. There are generally few places where are little things which provide a short view into the depths of the cult, which has to be more than the skeleton Ive talked about.

However, I assume, that the IC has such a doctrine. Is it secret or only hard to learn? I believe its only hard to learn, because the empire, and the imperial cult, tend to be rather open minded. To give it the character of a mystery school woul take the IC into a direction where it shouldnt go. MAYBE there are a few things that are secret and only told a high ranking member of the cult, but the doctrine should be generally accessible to everyone."

[NathanJ]

Ninth part:

"6. Disciple


A disciple is someone who "follows" a spiritual leader in the sense of observing his deeds and words and learning from these. Examples are the disciples of jesus christ or the disciples of abdul-baha in the bahaism, an originally islamic sect.

The disciple in the IC:

The disciple is the last rank of those I called the "scholastic ranks", although disciple doesnt completely deserve this (scholastic) name. As said in a previous part, one can rise through the scholastic ranks by simple work, study and a formal promotion by a higher ranking member. The 3 following ranks (oracle, invoker, theurgist) I call the "charismatic ranks", because they directly have to do with divine power and the requirements for promotion seem to be more obvious verifications of that person being divinely chosen than knowledge and "fleshly" skills.

Because the IC is not a cult in which a certain spiritual leader plays a greater role the disciple seems to be out of place in its original meaning. So there are two possibilities:
Either the member receives at the moment of being promoted to the rank disciple - maybe together with other members - a spiritual leader who is responsible for the spiritual growth of his new disciples OR the term "disciple" is to be understood in figurative sense as someone who tries to live a virtuous life in the constant regard to the nine or a single deity which is used as example.

While the first possibility is speculative, the second has a thing matching to other circumstances - the book "for my gods and emperor" says the nine are seen as examples for individuals perfectly living the virtuous life.

But the last possibility - aside from the obvious fact that actually every member (or even non-member who believes in the nine) can be called a disciple - leaves the question how the rank is actually reached and what meaning it has in the hierarchy.

While each option is in its own way possible, its in my opinion clear that the rank disciple is a state of preparation for the ranks in which one has direct contact to divine power (the "charismatic ranks" - oracle, invoker, theurgist) while its right before the first of those. Because "disciple" doesnt have a really special meaning it should be more some kind of a "transit rank".

My theory is, that the adept, who wants to rise into the charismatic ranks gets into a state of preparation and expectation of divine revelations (which are the requirement for being an oracle). He goes to the high ranking member of his trust and tells him he is ready for this state - the official "confirmation" for being in this state is the promotion to the rank "disciple". The rank is this state of expectation.
I remember a similar state in traditional christian mysticism. Mystics were preparing for divine revelations in the form of visions or ecstatic states by fasting and praying, and simply waited."

EDIT: I deleted the "jünger" and "curate" at the headline, this was a help for me when I wrote the text, sorry for possible disaccords

[NathanJ]

Tenth part:

"Rank 7-9, the charismatic ranks

I have called those ranks the "charismatic ranks" (from greek "charisma", =gift of grace). This term is (in its greek form) in the bible often used by paul to describe special powers granted by god. I use this term to describe the powers the IC-members receive by the nine divines in the higher ranks of the cult.


Rank 7 - Oracle

Etymology: The word "oracle" has its origin from the latin word "orare" (to speak, talk).

The term "oracle" has a few different meanings, but every meaning outside of the (original) ancient religious context is either a name or used in figurative sense as metaphor taken from its original meaning.

So I start with the origin in ancient polytheism:

In classical antiquity, an oracle was a person or agency considered to provide wise counsel or prophetic predictions or precognition of the future, inspired by the gods. As such it is a form of divination. (wikipedia)

(​especially in ​ancient Greece) a ​female ​priest who gave ​people ​wise but often ​mysterious ​advice from a ​god, or the ​advice given (http://dictionary.cambridge.org)

(especially in ancient Greece) an utterance, often ambiguous or obscure, given by a priest or priestess at a shrine as the response of a god to an inquiry. (http://dictionary.reference.com)

So the meanings of oracle are
1. A person through whom a deity speaks to mortals
2. The message given by a (religious) oracle
3. The place where a (religious) oracle can be found
4. A person who seems to know almost everything about a certain subject and does predictions

There were oracles in various religions, each with a similar meaning.

The ancient oracles were thought to be portals divine messages were sent through. They were different to seers, who interpreted signs in the nature such as the flight of birds or similar things to predict the future.

The oracle in the IC:

Because the imperial cult is a religious institution with strong influences from ancient polytheisms I assume the oracle being similar to the oracle of those.

The oracle is the only rank in the IC-hierarchy about which information is to be found in the vanilla game. The oracle Lalatia Varian sends the player to find certain artifacts by solving obscure riddles that she received from the gods and searching for their locations.

The following things are interesting about the oracle:
Lalatia Varian says about herself she has the "gift of seeing, but not the gift of doing". She wants the player to swear an oath to her "to dedicate yourself to me, to perform the oracles quests" and says "only if bound by such an oath may I reveal the secret visions granted to me". So before a proven member of the cult even hears a single word of the visions of the oracle he has to swear the oath to perform the quests they bring. This is a strong sign of the high value those visions have and the importance of the quests that follow.

The oracles quests are just gathering powerful artifacts for the cult and in one quest helping adusamsi doing the same (or adopting her task).

In one of the oracles quests the player has to search adusamsi, another oracle who searched for the ice blade of the monarch. It looks like this other oracle knew where this weapon could be found and travelled alone to its place. So it seems that not every oracle doesnt have the gift of doing.

So the Oracles task is to stay in touch with the supernatural guidence of the cult, which happens in form of mysterious riddles the oracle receives, solves (or gets it solved by someone else) and acts (or gets someone else act) on.
The only known orders the oracle receives this way is to gather powerful artifacts. I believe there happens more but as bethesda made the game I think they did not have time/energy to make a better questline.
So here is room for discussion.


The gods and the visions

The visions the oracle is granted are mostly obscure riddles and sometimes relatively clear (the death of Urjorad who tried to slay Carecalmo with the scroll fiercely roasting - while its not clear if it was really a vision because the oracle said "signs say he has come to grief inside ashalmimilkala"), but the knowledge the oracles provide is - if understood correctly - reliable.

The question what kind of supernatural power becomes manifest in those visions is the question about how the minds of the nine divines are like in the sense of actual consciousness and their potency to experience and communicate with the plane of mortals.

Why are the visions the oracle is granted obscure riddles? Why cant a god say "in the stronghold berandas, on the top level there is in the first room on the left side a powerful sword. Attention, its guarded by a dremora."

I think there are at least 3 possibilities:

1. The deity is not able to do that. Because the deities distance to the plane of the mortals the god has lost his connection with an "objective" and clear sight of the reality and sees things that are actually there and can be touched or clearly described by mortals together with things (spiritually) "behind" or in a (for the god) logical way associated with them and only perceptible for a divine spirit. The mix of those components is the deities reality and the vision is a message completely clear to the god but "coded" to mortals. By replacing the mystic parts of the message with their "earthly" equivalents (and sometimes simply associated things and circumstances) the mortals become able to understand the message.

From the ring in darkness:
"I have heard no name whispered in the mouth of stone"
no name = nammu, and the ring in darkness is the water around a spire inside a cavern

I think this is not much likely if we talk about a god like julianos. At least the god of logic himself has to be aware of some messages being very hard to understand to mortals.

2. The gods purpose with the vision is more than a simple "order from above". The visions need to be deciphered in a certain way serves the deity in a deeper way that is not understandable for mortals and serves a giant age-long plan.

What purpose can the need to decipher a message serve? Maybe to create the need for the believers to learn and by that to make them more powerful, or to guide them to specific people who help at solving the riddle now and will become important for completely different things far later.

This is therefore a likely option because it seems that an (aedric) deity doesnt have infinite power. If there is power for five visions and they want to do ten things with their mortal fellowship, they have to come up with ideas. IF we say the aedra are individual beings that have plans for the world and their fellowship (which is not commonly accepted^^) then I think this is my favourite option

3. The god we are talking about doesnt have such a thing like a mind, he/she is more like a great power thats somehow associated with various ideas and/or physical elements. So the god/power has a physical part and a spiritual part - the first records circumstances in the material world while the latter assesses them, not like an individual being, but more like a mechanism. Now the oracles power consists in the ability to passively record a certain direction the ideas can take and to visualize it into obscure sketches - the vision.

[NathanJ]

Eleventh part:

"8. Invoker

from the verb "invoke"
The possible meanings of "invoke" are:

From http://dictionary.cambridge.org:
1. to use a ​law in ​order to ​achieve something, or to ​mention something in ​order to ​explain something or to ​support ​your ​opinion or ​action:
"Police can invoke the ​law to ​regulate ​access to these ​places."
2. to ​request ​help from someone, ​especially a ​god, when you ​want to ​improve a ​situation:
"Their ​sacred ​dance is ​performed to invoke ​ancient ​gods."
3. to make someone have a ​particular ​feeling or ​remember something

From http://dictionary.reference.com:
verb (used with object), invoked, invoking.
1. to call for with earnest desire; make supplication or pray for:
to invoke God's mercy.
2. to call on (a deity, Muse, etc.), as in prayer or supplication.
3. to declare to be binding or in effect:
to invoke the law;
to invoke a veto.
4. to appeal to, as for confirmation.
5. to petition or call on for help or aid.
6. to call forth or upon (a spirit) by incantation.
7. to cause, call forth, or bring about.

The Invoker in the IC:

Of course, I take the religious meaning of the given term again to describe the IC-rank named by it - in the case of the invoker nothing else seems to be logical.

So the invoker is someone who invokes the god(s). So far, so vague. I think every person who believes in a god (in TES) sometimes "invokes" his god, but the case of the ICs "invoker" is presumably more special - because they called a rank "invoker", and its a pretty high one.
From these two facts I infer that the ICs invoker has a certain task to fulfill, one or more special roles to play in certain rites or church services. Still we dont know what they look like exactly. But I will post an analysis of that matter later - maybe after the analysis of the hierarchy - to determine how much information we can get about that matter and which areas are left to speculation or open to lore-extension .

While the invoker is a higher rank than the oracle, does the invoker has the oracles powers? If we assume the lay servant rising the hierarchy as the ingame faction implies, then a lay servant can be promoted to oracle and then has the option to become an invoker.

One question at this point: If we accept the theory of the selected ranks, is at some places the sequence of the ranks set in stone or not? Is the ingame hierarchy available to lay servant partally a matter of gameplay-simplification too and the lore-lay servants could maybe be promoted from disciple to invoker? Do lay servants rise in the hierarchy without the option of becoming an oracle until they receive the gift of seeing? Difficult question, but I tend to believe that theurgists have the gift of seeing, which the oracle has, as well, because I think the theurgists handle the power of the gods in a more direct way than the oracles.