TR Pipeline Discussion
Moderator: Lead Developers
I've updated the first post to make it less misleading. I've also edited some of the blue text in the WIP pipeline document to reflect what was discussed in the Skype meeting. It's still rather rough, however. I intend to rewrite the document from the ground up with the current WIP as a basis to make it shorter and clearer, as there is enough unnecessary detail and ambiguous or roundabout phrasing in the current document that I think it would be easier to rewrite it rather than reword it.
Edit: I naturally won't just delete the current version right away; I'll just hide it away at the bottom of the document until it can safely be removed.
Edit: I naturally won't just delete the current version right away; I'll just hide it away at the bottom of the document until it can safely be removed.
I'd originally planned on posting a few notes in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24999]Where to Start & Current Project Summary[/url] thread, but ended up going on a tangent and writing out a long post which I'm not sure is really of any use, but seems to fit best here if it fits anywhere.
As I've written it out anyway, and I might also use it as a basis for actual notes for the aforementioned thread, I figured I might as well post it.[spoiler]TR develops in stages, from planning to preparation to implementation to testing. Planning starts out on a province-wide level and then narrows down to individual regions and perhaps even down to particular sections of regions. Taking an individual region, then, the workflow is as follows:
First, the very broad province-level planning. How should Morrowind look like? How should particular areas of Morrowind look like? The latter should generally be informed by planning for the major faction or factions controlling the given area, the major factions being the Empire, the Temple, the five Dunmer Great Houses, and then more localized factions such as the Ashlanders, a likely Nordic faction in northwestern Morrowind (the Nail-Knock Reavers), and a likely Argonian faction on the Morrowind/Black Marsh border (Taj Eel Xa'nith).
For our example, let's take the northwesternmost corner of Morrowind. The general shape of it is pretty well established in maps, as well as the fact that it's bordered to the west by the Velothi Mountains, to the east by the Inner Sea and to the north by the Sea of Ghosts.
The region is very far north and right next to Skyrim, so one would expect it to be cold. Would a snowy region have a place in Morrowind, which generally seems dry, hot and arid? How dominant do we want the Velothi Mountains to be; should they just form the border or should they extend into the region, whether as foothills, plateaus or ridges? How dominant do we want the surrounding water to be? Do we want a lot of rivers, lakes, swampland, or should there be a clear boundary between land and sea? What about Morrowind's influences; do we want signs of volcanic activity so far from Red Mountain? How closely do we want the area to be tied to Morrowind; should it already be weird and alien, or should it form a more gradual transition between Morrowind and Skyrim?
In general, these questions should only receive vague answers. They're there more to establish what building blocks we can work with at a later stage than to establish how we should work with those building blocks.
The next question is what major faction controls the area. Factions tend to colour the regions they control, and the regions tend to colour the faction. House Redoran controls most of northwestern Morrowind at the start of the game, though limited areas may be controlled by the Nail-Knock Reavers, the Empire, the Temple and House Hlaalu. (The last one is looking very unlikely at the moment, but it is still always a possibility).
The balance of the factions affects the general look of the region:
Regions with a lot of Imperial presence would tend to look more familiar to western audiences; one would expect Legion forts, towns in the common tileset, lots of greenery, Imperial guild presence and a lot of outlanders.
Regions with a lot of Temple presence would tend to contain Velothi towns (that is towns inhabited by non-House affiliated Dunmer who are generally poor, devout and somewhat xenophobic), temples, and the presence of NPCs associated with the temple like priests, pilgrims and Ordinators.
Regions with a lot of Nordic presence would tend to contain villages in the Nordic tileset, longboats, coniferous trees and furry, likely mammalian creatures, and of course Nords. (Well, I suppose some Dunmer would class Nords as furry mammalian creatures...)
This stage, then, is where we start to get a clearer idea of how the region should actually look. What balance of factions do we want in the region? Do we want House Redoran to be completely dominant, or do we want one of the factions with less overall presence to have a larger visual influence on the region, such as the Nail-Knock Reavers?
Let's say we want House Redoran to be dominant. House Redoran is a poor House with a weak economy. You'd tend to expect a low, possibly largely rural population and very inhospitable, infertile land; warrior patrols, hunters, dangerous beasts and likely NPCs as well.
You wouldn't expect much in the way of greenery, with any vegetation having a very subdued colour palette; perhaps brownish like West Gash. Any water should generally be portrayed more negatively, or it will make the region look too fertile; dreary bogs and swamps could fit the bill quite nicely, for instance. For the most part, water should probably be limited, though. Mountainous terrain could work well, same with snow; both tend to look barren and harsh. Stuff like volcanic presence would be pretty ideal, but perhaps shouldn't be too prevalent due to the distance from Red Mountain.
Having done that, we can divide the area into distinct regions: let's say we want snow and mountains; some kind of swamp maybe covered in ash to look more dreary and less fertile, perhaps further south so as to be closer to Red Mountain; and perhaps some regions with a bit more vegetation such as scrub and grass and perhaps a Morrowind spin on coniferous trees or something but still very harsh and cold. Maybe highlands, a plateau, tundra, steppe, taiga, a moor.
We play around with the visuals a bit, preferably with a lot of concept art, and end up with concepts for four or five distinct regions.
For each of the regions, the question comes up again of what the faction presence is in the region and what role the region plays for the faction. Does the snowy region have a particularly strong Nail-Knock Reaver presence? Does one of the regions with vegetation have more Imperial presence? Perhaps the mountainous region contains a lot of Kwama mines for the Redorans to harvest from?
Once we've reached this stage, planning becomes very concrete; we figure out what dungeons would be found in the region, the rough location and number of ruins and settlements, the rough road network, etc. Depending on how well we plan out the dungeons, and the type of dungeons, we might even consider opening up some of them for interior developers, though generally it would be safer to wait for the exterior to be created.
Once the region has been figured out, then, we can prepare it for implementation. If there are any assets needed for the region, like new fauna, they should ideally be created at this stage, though if worst comes to worst stuff like fauna in particular can always be added in later. We create a palette for the region for exterior developers to use, and finalize the rough heightmap of the region. The exterior is divided into claims and claim descriptions are written out. Quests and dialogue for the region can start to be written at this point.
Once that's done, the claims can be put up and our exterior developers set loose upon them. Exterior developers document the interior connections they have added, which should naturally include any settlements and dungeons specifically planned to be located in that claim, as well as any additional interiors allowed by the flexible plan, such as isolated dwellings and caves.
Based off of that documentation, once the exterior has been approved, (as far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to be marked as finished; as long as it is approved on the basis of following the plan and not being a complete mess, the odd caspering rocks and bad texture transitions don't really matter for this), the interior claims for the exterior are written and the interiors put up.
By the time the interior claims are done and merged, at least some quests and dialogue should be ready for immediate implementation; quest claims are written out, opened up for claiming, completed and tested.
Once the individual components are ready -- exteriors, interiors, NPCing and quests -- we can start merging them together. Borders between exteriors are patched up, testers run around the place, screenshots are taken and so on and so forth. When the section or region has been thoroughly tested and any bugs squished, it is ready for merging into TR_Mainland.[/spoiler]
As I've written it out anyway, and I might also use it as a basis for actual notes for the aforementioned thread, I figured I might as well post it.[spoiler]TR develops in stages, from planning to preparation to implementation to testing. Planning starts out on a province-wide level and then narrows down to individual regions and perhaps even down to particular sections of regions. Taking an individual region, then, the workflow is as follows:
First, the very broad province-level planning. How should Morrowind look like? How should particular areas of Morrowind look like? The latter should generally be informed by planning for the major faction or factions controlling the given area, the major factions being the Empire, the Temple, the five Dunmer Great Houses, and then more localized factions such as the Ashlanders, a likely Nordic faction in northwestern Morrowind (the Nail-Knock Reavers), and a likely Argonian faction on the Morrowind/Black Marsh border (Taj Eel Xa'nith).
For our example, let's take the northwesternmost corner of Morrowind. The general shape of it is pretty well established in maps, as well as the fact that it's bordered to the west by the Velothi Mountains, to the east by the Inner Sea and to the north by the Sea of Ghosts.
The region is very far north and right next to Skyrim, so one would expect it to be cold. Would a snowy region have a place in Morrowind, which generally seems dry, hot and arid? How dominant do we want the Velothi Mountains to be; should they just form the border or should they extend into the region, whether as foothills, plateaus or ridges? How dominant do we want the surrounding water to be? Do we want a lot of rivers, lakes, swampland, or should there be a clear boundary between land and sea? What about Morrowind's influences; do we want signs of volcanic activity so far from Red Mountain? How closely do we want the area to be tied to Morrowind; should it already be weird and alien, or should it form a more gradual transition between Morrowind and Skyrim?
In general, these questions should only receive vague answers. They're there more to establish what building blocks we can work with at a later stage than to establish how we should work with those building blocks.
The next question is what major faction controls the area. Factions tend to colour the regions they control, and the regions tend to colour the faction. House Redoran controls most of northwestern Morrowind at the start of the game, though limited areas may be controlled by the Nail-Knock Reavers, the Empire, the Temple and House Hlaalu. (The last one is looking very unlikely at the moment, but it is still always a possibility).
The balance of the factions affects the general look of the region:
Regions with a lot of Imperial presence would tend to look more familiar to western audiences; one would expect Legion forts, towns in the common tileset, lots of greenery, Imperial guild presence and a lot of outlanders.
Regions with a lot of Temple presence would tend to contain Velothi towns (that is towns inhabited by non-House affiliated Dunmer who are generally poor, devout and somewhat xenophobic), temples, and the presence of NPCs associated with the temple like priests, pilgrims and Ordinators.
Regions with a lot of Nordic presence would tend to contain villages in the Nordic tileset, longboats, coniferous trees and furry, likely mammalian creatures, and of course Nords. (Well, I suppose some Dunmer would class Nords as furry mammalian creatures...)
This stage, then, is where we start to get a clearer idea of how the region should actually look. What balance of factions do we want in the region? Do we want House Redoran to be completely dominant, or do we want one of the factions with less overall presence to have a larger visual influence on the region, such as the Nail-Knock Reavers?
Let's say we want House Redoran to be dominant. House Redoran is a poor House with a weak economy. You'd tend to expect a low, possibly largely rural population and very inhospitable, infertile land; warrior patrols, hunters, dangerous beasts and likely NPCs as well.
You wouldn't expect much in the way of greenery, with any vegetation having a very subdued colour palette; perhaps brownish like West Gash. Any water should generally be portrayed more negatively, or it will make the region look too fertile; dreary bogs and swamps could fit the bill quite nicely, for instance. For the most part, water should probably be limited, though. Mountainous terrain could work well, same with snow; both tend to look barren and harsh. Stuff like volcanic presence would be pretty ideal, but perhaps shouldn't be too prevalent due to the distance from Red Mountain.
Having done that, we can divide the area into distinct regions: let's say we want snow and mountains; some kind of swamp maybe covered in ash to look more dreary and less fertile, perhaps further south so as to be closer to Red Mountain; and perhaps some regions with a bit more vegetation such as scrub and grass and perhaps a Morrowind spin on coniferous trees or something but still very harsh and cold. Maybe highlands, a plateau, tundra, steppe, taiga, a moor.
We play around with the visuals a bit, preferably with a lot of concept art, and end up with concepts for four or five distinct regions.
For each of the regions, the question comes up again of what the faction presence is in the region and what role the region plays for the faction. Does the snowy region have a particularly strong Nail-Knock Reaver presence? Does one of the regions with vegetation have more Imperial presence? Perhaps the mountainous region contains a lot of Kwama mines for the Redorans to harvest from?
Once we've reached this stage, planning becomes very concrete; we figure out what dungeons would be found in the region, the rough location and number of ruins and settlements, the rough road network, etc. Depending on how well we plan out the dungeons, and the type of dungeons, we might even consider opening up some of them for interior developers, though generally it would be safer to wait for the exterior to be created.
Once the region has been figured out, then, we can prepare it for implementation. If there are any assets needed for the region, like new fauna, they should ideally be created at this stage, though if worst comes to worst stuff like fauna in particular can always be added in later. We create a palette for the region for exterior developers to use, and finalize the rough heightmap of the region. The exterior is divided into claims and claim descriptions are written out. Quests and dialogue for the region can start to be written at this point.
Once that's done, the claims can be put up and our exterior developers set loose upon them. Exterior developers document the interior connections they have added, which should naturally include any settlements and dungeons specifically planned to be located in that claim, as well as any additional interiors allowed by the flexible plan, such as isolated dwellings and caves.
Based off of that documentation, once the exterior has been approved, (as far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to be marked as finished; as long as it is approved on the basis of following the plan and not being a complete mess, the odd caspering rocks and bad texture transitions don't really matter for this), the interior claims for the exterior are written and the interiors put up.
By the time the interior claims are done and merged, at least some quests and dialogue should be ready for immediate implementation; quest claims are written out, opened up for claiming, completed and tested.
Once the individual components are ready -- exteriors, interiors, NPCing and quests -- we can start merging them together. Borders between exteriors are patched up, testers run around the place, screenshots are taken and so on and so forth. When the section or region has been thoroughly tested and any bugs squished, it is ready for merging into TR_Mainland.[/spoiler]
Thats a good approach I think, for the exteriors that are not yet existing. Im new to this community, so I dont know the story behind the discussions about redoing telvanis and almalexia and such, but Im in principle against redoing existing exteriors if they are not completely out of place. Beauty over 150% lore-consistency. Dont get me wrong, Im the first who appreciates something at the very right place, but I appreciate a great mod thats 95% consistent more. If TR becomes a boring piece of software because of 100 hours discussion about a single landscape (and completely redoing it 3 times) until the developpers lose fun and inspiration, nobody will want to play that - and then what were we working for?
The northwest mainland is already finished (well, the exteriors) isnt it? I just played there and its just beautiful. there are a few things here and there that should be fixed, but the overall feeling is natural, you feel youre slowly getting closer to skyrim (And the velothi mountains do really feel like mountains). Its geographically logical to make this transition not a sudden one but step by step. So at least I think this landscape shouldnt be changed dramatically.
The northwest mainland is already finished (well, the exteriors) isnt it? I just played there and its just beautiful. there are a few things here and there that should be fixed, but the overall feeling is natural, you feel youre slowly getting closer to skyrim (And the velothi mountains do really feel like mountains). Its geographically logical to make this transition not a sudden one but step by step. So at least I think this landscape shouldnt be changed dramatically.
Why cant I simply use an Elder scroll to make my Clocks go slower?
I should have perhaps made it clearer that I was only using the area as an example. In fact, the regions I end up describing for the area are basically what we have: the Velothi mountains for, well, mountains, Uld Vraech for the snowy region, the swamp covered in ash is Grey Meadows, and then a few somewhat greener regions.
Which isn't to say that I won't bring up the idea of changing some of those regions in some way, mainly the greener ones, just that that particular post isn't me suggesting that.
Which isn't to say that I won't bring up the idea of changing some of those regions in some way, mainly the greener ones, just that that particular post isn't me suggesting that.
While redoing things in the face of changes beyond their original scope is entirely reasonable/desirable, it seems to me that multiple redoings can be avoided by instead establishing a queue of change requests.
These queues would only even get read after at least the map in which that queue's cell resides in has been given a first-pass finish (all ints and exts and some quests completed once) , and at most, after the entirety of TR has been given a first-pass completion
This system, in my mind, has the following
benefits:
These queues would only even get read after at least the map in which that queue's cell resides in has been given a first-pass finish (all ints and exts and some quests completed once) , and at most, after the entirety of TR has been given a first-pass completion
This system, in my mind, has the following
benefits:
- Ideas get a(n) (long) incubation/discussion period, in which things can get a lot more final
- More new and exciting claims to chew on
- Reduced likelihood of one or more users flipflopping on an issue and causing needless redos
- Increased apparent stability, giving quest creators et al more comfort, as it doesn't feel as likely that their contributions will be retconned
- (This is a good deal less tangible, and I could be wrong on this.) Improved sense of progress, thus improved motivation.
- Effectively enables planning and development to operate concurrently, as we already have the initial developments on which these queues would be placed
- Small releases will lack polish
- Perfectionists (which probably describes a lot of us here) may be bothered by the nature of long-hanging nature of the queued flaws
- Depending on the organization of things, some claims may erroneously never get a second pass
Alright, so it's been a while since I've been around and I'm not even going to pretend that I understand the full picture of TR anymore, what with having been absent for 2+ years now. However, I have finally finished reading this whole thread and there are a number of things I'd like to get off my chest.
First off, I'd like to point out that while TR could indeed use a few changes to how it goes about doing things, what we're doing now is completely asinine. Almost nothing has gotten done at all in the past year and instead of trying to go about fixing the situation, we simply make excuses and try to come up with new ways to run things that just waste even more time.
What I mean by this is that in the 3 days that I've been back, it seems the general mindset of this team as a whole has been "well, let's discuss what we can do to better ourselves."
Discussion is great because it helps us move forward, it gives the project direction and focus. If we could find a more efficient way of bettering ourselves and making us run more smoothly, awesome! However, all I've seen since I've been back is MORE discussion; discussion on how to better TR, discussion on how to discuss how to be better at TR, and if that doesn't work, we can plan yet another discussion.
Does anyone else see a pattern here?
I've looked and I've seen numerous posts where people mention that we don't have the modding team that we used to have way back when, that we don't have that many people anymore. Well here's the thing; you put out work for developers and they will come back.
You want to know how to make TR run better? We focus on our CURRENT assets: what active developers we do have, what region is going to be our primary focus for our next (major) release, what needs to be done to make that happen.
Here's how it works, it's so simple it's almost like magic. To the best of my knowledge, our next major release update is supposed to be OE (correct me if I'm wrong.) So if OE is to be our next big release, then I don't give a damn what the hell is happening in northwestern Morrowind, I don't care if the vegetation looks to green or if should look more mountainous or whatever the hell we're discussing. None of that is going to affect the OE release (at this point.)
I'm not saying that we shouldn't plan out the broader picture or anything like that. Of course we need a "Master Plan" to work with (to some extent,) and I'm not saying we shouldn't try and figure out what's going to happen with Dres and Baan Malur etc. But when we put a lot of our focus here and start looking at all this instead of working on what needs to be done next for a release, that's when the project starts to get disorganized like it is now. If people have some great ideas as to what kind of vegetation or regions should be made for the Northwestern part of Morrowind, great! post them in the appropriate thread and anyone interested can post their ideas too, but in the mean time, the rest of us should still be focusing on OE and seeing what needs to be done with that particular region.
Another thing I'd like to go over is the actual discussions themselves. Once again, I'd like to reiterate: I fully understand that planning needs to be done first, that we need to come up with ideas of what we want to do before we implement anything. The point of this post is simply to point out how asinine this whole thread is and how we don't need months to discuss a very simple solution. Also, it's not just this, but our discussions about just about anything in general, the way we go about it is just absolutely ridiculous.
There is a need for fundamental planning for things, and doing so before acting is important, but at the same time too much is being devoted to minor things. Gnomey at one point mentioned planning for what should go into an indoril temple in Roa Dyr. That should be a couple days discussion, a week tops. People who don't get in their opinions can still give them, but a plan to move forward should be good to go and proceed barring obvious need for correction.
Another great example is the whole issue of E and OE. We're so caught up in why E exists alongside OE that nothing has been getting done at all. Why is this still an issue? We're not removing E or merging it into the mainland. You need a justification for E being where it is? Anonytroll said that E was an ego build on the part of the Vvardenfell legion head. BAM! Solved! Just like that! Can't really think of a more logical reason than that and I don't see why this is still an issue.
Finally, what I'm trying to get across with all of this is that yes, we do need to discuss things and plan them before implementing, that is very important. But when we start discussing ideas for other ideas on top of other ideas...when does it end? This doesn't need to be hard at all, this doesn't need to be a huge to-do. I think Kaziem had the right idea when she posted the one sticky thread about where to start as someone who just got their developer title and wants to get to work. We should expand more on that thread, talk about what needs to get done soon and what we can put off for later.
First off, I'd like to point out that while TR could indeed use a few changes to how it goes about doing things, what we're doing now is completely asinine. Almost nothing has gotten done at all in the past year and instead of trying to go about fixing the situation, we simply make excuses and try to come up with new ways to run things that just waste even more time.
What I mean by this is that in the 3 days that I've been back, it seems the general mindset of this team as a whole has been "well, let's discuss what we can do to better ourselves."
Discussion is great because it helps us move forward, it gives the project direction and focus. If we could find a more efficient way of bettering ourselves and making us run more smoothly, awesome! However, all I've seen since I've been back is MORE discussion; discussion on how to better TR, discussion on how to discuss how to be better at TR, and if that doesn't work, we can plan yet another discussion.
Does anyone else see a pattern here?
I've looked and I've seen numerous posts where people mention that we don't have the modding team that we used to have way back when, that we don't have that many people anymore. Well here's the thing; you put out work for developers and they will come back.
The problem with this is that instead of putting out actual work, we're discussing issues that should have been brought to a close MONTHS ago. We're still discussing how to go about running TR to be more efficient so we can put out work. This idea is great in theory, but the reality is that no one is getting anywhere, no one is doing anything to make anything better, we simply discuss and discuss because no one wants to actually DO anything anymore.Thrignar Fraxix wrote:When we had over 100 open ints to claim years ago, interior modding reached its apex. You all think there aren't modders out there, but this is a matter of momentum. Momentum is built by visible progress and completed claims demonstrates this. Planning not so much
You want to know how to make TR run better? We focus on our CURRENT assets: what active developers we do have, what region is going to be our primary focus for our next (major) release, what needs to be done to make that happen.
Here's how it works, it's so simple it's almost like magic. To the best of my knowledge, our next major release update is supposed to be OE (correct me if I'm wrong.) So if OE is to be our next big release, then I don't give a damn what the hell is happening in northwestern Morrowind, I don't care if the vegetation looks to green or if should look more mountainous or whatever the hell we're discussing. None of that is going to affect the OE release (at this point.)
I'm not saying that we shouldn't plan out the broader picture or anything like that. Of course we need a "Master Plan" to work with (to some extent,) and I'm not saying we shouldn't try and figure out what's going to happen with Dres and Baan Malur etc. But when we put a lot of our focus here and start looking at all this instead of working on what needs to be done next for a release, that's when the project starts to get disorganized like it is now. If people have some great ideas as to what kind of vegetation or regions should be made for the Northwestern part of Morrowind, great! post them in the appropriate thread and anyone interested can post their ideas too, but in the mean time, the rest of us should still be focusing on OE and seeing what needs to be done with that particular region.
Another thing I'd like to go over is the actual discussions themselves. Once again, I'd like to reiterate: I fully understand that planning needs to be done first, that we need to come up with ideas of what we want to do before we implement anything. The point of this post is simply to point out how asinine this whole thread is and how we don't need months to discuss a very simple solution. Also, it's not just this, but our discussions about just about anything in general, the way we go about it is just absolutely ridiculous.
There is a need for fundamental planning for things, and doing so before acting is important, but at the same time too much is being devoted to minor things. Gnomey at one point mentioned planning for what should go into an indoril temple in Roa Dyr. That should be a couple days discussion, a week tops. People who don't get in their opinions can still give them, but a plan to move forward should be good to go and proceed barring obvious need for correction.
Another great example is the whole issue of E and OE. We're so caught up in why E exists alongside OE that nothing has been getting done at all. Why is this still an issue? We're not removing E or merging it into the mainland. You need a justification for E being where it is? Anonytroll said that E was an ego build on the part of the Vvardenfell legion head. BAM! Solved! Just like that! Can't really think of a more logical reason than that and I don't see why this is still an issue.
Finally, what I'm trying to get across with all of this is that yes, we do need to discuss things and plan them before implementing, that is very important. But when we start discussing ideas for other ideas on top of other ideas...when does it end? This doesn't need to be hard at all, this doesn't need to be a huge to-do. I think Kaziem had the right idea when she posted the one sticky thread about where to start as someone who just got their developer title and wants to get to work. We should expand more on that thread, talk about what needs to get done soon and what we can put off for later.
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse
I'm separating this into two posts because I didn't know if there was a cut off with my first post or not. Okay, now I'd like to touch base on a couple other things that I've noticed going on and try to help clarify some issues.
I noticed going through this thread that the idea was thrown out there that we should start over, that we should redo everything to better match our standards. Now, I understand that this idea was pretty much nipped in the bud, but I still want to throw in my $.02 anyway.
I'm one of the people that will openly admit that I want to redo the first two maps of the Telvanni areas that we have because they're really not up to par with the rest of our standards. The exteriors could really use some redoing, and don't even get me started on the wonderful town of Helnim (sarcasm there.)
However! This does not mean that I want to start over the whole damn project or even redo these two areas anytime soon. IF we are to redo the first two maps or so, it'll be AFTER Tamriel Rebuilt is already completed and we have a solid (final...?) release. When we finally reach that point, then and only then would I suggest redoing the first two maps. The idea being that it could just be a handful of developers (myself would be one of them) that want to make those two maps in particular match up with the rest of TR's standards. It'd be a side project for a group of us that want to continue working on TR. I've always imagined it to be a sort of "optional" version of TR, unless we're able to complete it, at which point what few developers remain of us afterward could just make it the official plug in, since it'd be the same thing, but with better looking maps.
Again, that is something that if it was to happen at all, would happen after the project was pretty much already done.
To even contemplate redoing or starting over at all is downright idiotic and should be out of the question. Which, as I've seen from reading this thread, clearly isn't going to happen (thank god.) I only brought this up to further clarify that those of us that want to see the first two maps redone and the idea of redoing/starting over are two entirely different things.
Moving on, another topic I wanted to go over was the idea that this is a hobby project; we're here to have fun, and that there is a very a good chance TR may never be completed.
Personally, I don't agree with that, at least not the latter part. I firmly believe that TR will be completed; it may not be for another several years, but I do believe it will be someday. I wouldn't have begun working on it if I didn't believe we'd ever see a finished product. I love TR, I love Morrowind, I love working and modding and even planning out what needs to be done. That being said, there are always going to be times when certain things come up that no one will want to do. *cough* Almalexia *cough*
This about wraps up everything I've been wanting to say, I can only hope this weekend's Skype meeting goes better and we can start making some important decisions. There will always be things that no one wants to do. If it should ever come to that, I'll gladly do it because I want to see this project start to move again like it did before. We've got to start somewhere, and I believe our first step needs to be acknowledging why we're here and why we're doing this. We love Morrowind, we love what we're doing. We wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. So let's stop wasting time with discussions that take months on end and lead nowhere and start moving forward again.
I noticed going through this thread that the idea was thrown out there that we should start over, that we should redo everything to better match our standards. Now, I understand that this idea was pretty much nipped in the bud, but I still want to throw in my $.02 anyway.
I'm one of the people that will openly admit that I want to redo the first two maps of the Telvanni areas that we have because they're really not up to par with the rest of our standards. The exteriors could really use some redoing, and don't even get me started on the wonderful town of Helnim (sarcasm there.)
However! This does not mean that I want to start over the whole damn project or even redo these two areas anytime soon. IF we are to redo the first two maps or so, it'll be AFTER Tamriel Rebuilt is already completed and we have a solid (final...?) release. When we finally reach that point, then and only then would I suggest redoing the first two maps. The idea being that it could just be a handful of developers (myself would be one of them) that want to make those two maps in particular match up with the rest of TR's standards. It'd be a side project for a group of us that want to continue working on TR. I've always imagined it to be a sort of "optional" version of TR, unless we're able to complete it, at which point what few developers remain of us afterward could just make it the official plug in, since it'd be the same thing, but with better looking maps.
Again, that is something that if it was to happen at all, would happen after the project was pretty much already done.
To even contemplate redoing or starting over at all is downright idiotic and should be out of the question. Which, as I've seen from reading this thread, clearly isn't going to happen (thank god.) I only brought this up to further clarify that those of us that want to see the first two maps redone and the idea of redoing/starting over are two entirely different things.
Moving on, another topic I wanted to go over was the idea that this is a hobby project; we're here to have fun, and that there is a very a good chance TR may never be completed.
Personally, I don't agree with that, at least not the latter part. I firmly believe that TR will be completed; it may not be for another several years, but I do believe it will be someday. I wouldn't have begun working on it if I didn't believe we'd ever see a finished product. I love TR, I love Morrowind, I love working and modding and even planning out what needs to be done. That being said, there are always going to be times when certain things come up that no one will want to do. *cough* Almalexia *cough*
This about wraps up everything I've been wanting to say, I can only hope this weekend's Skype meeting goes better and we can start making some important decisions. There will always be things that no one wants to do. If it should ever come to that, I'll gladly do it because I want to see this project start to move again like it did before. We've got to start somewhere, and I believe our first step needs to be acknowledging why we're here and why we're doing this. We love Morrowind, we love what we're doing. We wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. So let's stop wasting time with discussions that take months on end and lead nowhere and start moving forward again.
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse
Thank you, Not, for bringing up this matter again.
Currently I see most things as endless talk and no action, just as Not does. This needs to change one way or another, and the change will need to be big. Planning, planning, and more planning is not a solution to our problems, and it never will be. A year and a half ago, it was believed that the majority of planning would go by quickly, and as a result dozens of claims would be opened up. Well, guess what, it's been a year and a half, and progress has slowed even further.
Now I'd really like to hear the opinions of more than just one or two people on this subject. We need a wide consensus on the matter, as it will ultimately decide the fate of this project.
Currently I see most things as endless talk and no action, just as Not does. This needs to change one way or another, and the change will need to be big. Planning, planning, and more planning is not a solution to our problems, and it never will be. A year and a half ago, it was believed that the majority of planning would go by quickly, and as a result dozens of claims would be opened up. Well, guess what, it's been a year and a half, and progress has slowed even further.
Now I'd really like to hear the opinions of more than just one or two people on this subject. We need a wide consensus on the matter, as it will ultimately decide the fate of this project.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
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mspyerzuka
- Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:26 am
Not: I think a piece of data which would strongly support your sentiments on this topic is page hits. SWIM post the page hits on each section and we can get an idea of how many people visit. Maybe have a section (on the splash page) of how many hits we get per day to keep morale up. Still new here figured i would throw that in since it worked in another community i participate in.
To be perfectly blunt, the following post is a piece of campaigning for the previously mentioned queueing system, and will probably sound exactly as evangelistic as it actually is. For any with an allergy to that, I apologize in advance.RyanS wrote:We need a wide consensus on the matter, as it will ultimately decide the fate of this project.
The queue system is designed with this in mind, in that flawed planning and even execution is permissible in the name of progress, and as flaws are in the eye of the beholder, we're unlikely to ever reach flawless plans, so enacting them with flaws is the only strategy with any real potential. The system allows for refinement, but not at the cost of progress, in a manner that segues well to my next quote:RyanS wrote: Planning, planning, and more planning is not a solution to our problems, and it never will be
This is exactly what the queue system is supposed to orchestrate. This could very well be copy-pasted into my original suggestion, and it would appear to be perfectly in context.Not wrote:I'm one of the people that will openly admit that I want to redo the first two maps of the Telvanni areas that we have because they're really not up to par with the rest of our standards. The exteriors could really use some redoing, and don't even get me started on the wonderful town of Helnim (sarcasm there.)
However! This does not mean that I want to start over the whole damn project or even redo these two areas anytime soon. IF we are to redo the first two maps or so, it'll be AFTER Tamriel Rebuilt is already completed and we have a solid (final...?) release. When we finally reach that point, then and only then would I suggest redoing the first two maps. The idea being that it could just be a handful of developers (myself would be one of them) that want to make those two maps in particular match up with the rest of TR's standards. It'd be a side project for a group of us that want to continue working on TR. I've always imagined it to be a sort of "optional" version of TR, unless we're able to complete it, at which point what few developers remain of us afterward could just make it the official plug in, since it'd be the same thing, but with better looking maps.
While I personally am of that view, I don't believe it to necessarily be contradictory to a speed-to-completion approach, as the gratification of the completion and its applause is sure to be a cause of equivalent if not superior joy.Not wrote: Moving on, another topic I wanted to go over was the idea that this is a hobby project; we're here to have fun, and that there is a very a good chance TR may never be completed.
Personally, I don't agree with that, at least not the latter part. I firmly believe that TR will be completed; it may not be for another several years, but I do believe it will be someday. I wouldn't have begun working on it if I didn't believe we'd ever see a finished product. I love TR, I love Morrowind, I love working and modding and even planning out what needs to be done. That being said, there are always going to be times when certain things come up that no one will want to do. *cough* Almalexia *cough*
Queue system is designed to minimize blocking timeNot wrote:Almost nothing has gotten done at all in the past year and instead of trying to go about fixing the situation, we simply make excuses and try to come up with new ways to run things that just waste even more time.
The queue system would produce claims more quickly, as the flaw-tolerance makes their deliberation independent of consensus, which is really what takes forever, especially in a community as large as this one (not that TR is Facebook or anything, but still)Not wrote:I've looked and I've seen numerous posts where people mention that we don't have the modding team that we used to have way back when, that we don't have that many people anymore. Well here's the thing; you put out work for developers and they will come back.
With the queue system, this discussion would not block progress because its conclusion would be irrelevant until the first-pass is completed. This particular benefit is painfully and obviously lacking in countless areas, like the discussion of the Velothizing of House Indoril's holdings, which, regardless of the idea's merits, has operational costs that greatly exceed anything gotten for the decision to do this sooner and without the incubation assured by the wait for the first pass to end.Not wrote:Another great example is the whole issue of E and OE. We're so caught up in why E exists alongside OE that nothing has been getting done at all. Why is this still an issue? We're not removing E or merging it into the mainland. You need a justification for E being where it is? Anonytroll said that E was an ego build on the part of the Vvardenfell legion head. BAM! Solved! Just like that! Can't really think of a more logical reason than that and I don't see why this is still an issue.
This, too, is exactly what I'm promoting. (Since every map is followed by the next one, you would never redo maps until they're all done, thus enacting the first pass concept)Not wrote: Here's how it works, it's so simple it's almost like magic. To the best of my knowledge, our next major release update is supposed to be OE (correct me if I'm wrong.) So if OE is to be our next big release, then I don't give a damn what the hell is happening in northwestern Morrowind, I don't care if the vegetation looks to green or if should look more mountainous or whatever the hell we're discussing. None of that is going to affect the OE release (at this point.)
I haven't yet ironed this detail out, but I would propose that, after some interval (be it measured in posts or time), claims that were being planned by that are simply free to be created. Any subset of the posters can insist on their vision, and by the time first pass is over, there will likely have been extra thought and even an element of in-game testing to help determine what's best.Not wrote:Finally, what I'm trying to get across with all of this is that yes, we do need to discuss things and plan them before implementing, that is very important. But when we start discussing ideas for other ideas on top of other ideas...when does it end?
The first-pass policy would be a comprehensive definition of what needs to get done soon and what we can put off for later.Not wrote:This doesn't need to be hard at all, this doesn't need to be a huge to-do. I think Kaziem had the right idea when she posted the one sticky thread about where to start as someone who just got their developer title and wants to get to work. We should expand more on that thread, talk about what needs to get done soon and what we can put off for later.
And lastly, better done poorly than planned excellently (if, of course, not done). (Also, planning the entire project before doing it has the issue that those more interested in doing are likely to jump ship, which is something that paid enterprises simply don't have to deal with, so even if Vvardenfell was developed in this manner, we probably can't afford the losses incurred by doing so)
Please opine. (shoutout to Kaziem for the earlier opinion)
Seperate post because seperate concern
EDIT: broken quote syntax
I feel like it would increase the potential fatality of slumps to an extent that isn't balanced out by the morale (I don't have any harder logic than a feeling though, so if the consensus is the other way, I won't butt in)mspyerzuka wrote:Not: I think a piece of data which would strongly support your sentiments on this topic is page hits. SWIM post the page hits on each section and we can get an idea of how many people visit. Maybe have a section (on the splash page) of how many hits we get per day to keep morale up. Still new here figured i would throw that in since it worked in another community i participate in.
EDIT: broken quote syntax
We need to bring true progress back into the project. And so, after reading your points, I am in favor of the queue system.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
Mangoes has some awesome points, and I appreciate the input. Actually, I did have a much better solution to how we should go about organizing claims and showing our progress while at the same time keeping everything completely transparent to others in a way where everyone can give their input. Using my approach, we could track the progress we've already made with each release, discuss what needs to be done with future releases, and further organize a sort of to-do list.
I don't really want to go into details here, I'm still working on a sort of demo release of the plan I have in mind, and I think presenting it at the Skype meeting will be much more feasible. I just hope that people are receptive to it, because it makes perfect sense, would save us so much trouble in so many areas, and the only reason I could think of NOT to implement it is because well....more discussions on how to go about it.
Either way, this project is going to start moving forward pretty soon because I absolutely refuse to see it die or continue on the way it has been.
I don't really want to go into details here, I'm still working on a sort of demo release of the plan I have in mind, and I think presenting it at the Skype meeting will be much more feasible. I just hope that people are receptive to it, because it makes perfect sense, would save us so much trouble in so many areas, and the only reason I could think of NOT to implement it is because well....more discussions on how to go about it.
Either way, this project is going to start moving forward pretty soon because I absolutely refuse to see it die or continue on the way it has been.
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse
As for me, I agree with not. Really, I want to design quests, its a burning issue to me. And now that OE is interiorized and NPCed it will be the logical next step to fill it with faction- and misc quests.
While Im currently doing this IC-lore-thing, I would say Im going to do this paralell - for those who are interested - and open up another thread for my quests for OE - IF we all agree with what not said about OE being the next major release.
One word about faction quests: I have understood the queue system that we finish first maybe OE, then another town and another town... that is a doubtlessly working system. BUT the faction questlines work on a province-wide basis. We have to implement a faction-wide plan in the special case of the town we are currently working on, even if its not yet perfect. After we have finished every major town we should eliminate the majority of mistakes in our plan, even if that means redoing or adjusting some quests.
I think with this pattern we should achieve results quickly without big mistakes in logic and dramaturgy of faction questlines.
EDIT: Well, the faction questlines are not yet worked out completely :-/.
Another idea is to finish the towns without implementing the faction quests and to do this at the very end, when the majority of cities is finished (interiors, NPCs, misc quests) - this would give us time to finish the plans for the faction questlines..
While Im currently doing this IC-lore-thing, I would say Im going to do this paralell - for those who are interested - and open up another thread for my quests for OE - IF we all agree with what not said about OE being the next major release.
One word about faction quests: I have understood the queue system that we finish first maybe OE, then another town and another town... that is a doubtlessly working system. BUT the faction questlines work on a province-wide basis. We have to implement a faction-wide plan in the special case of the town we are currently working on, even if its not yet perfect. After we have finished every major town we should eliminate the majority of mistakes in our plan, even if that means redoing or adjusting some quests.
I think with this pattern we should achieve results quickly without big mistakes in logic and dramaturgy of faction questlines.
EDIT: Well, the faction questlines are not yet worked out completely :-/.
Another idea is to finish the towns without implementing the faction quests and to do this at the very end, when the majority of cities is finished (interiors, NPCs, misc quests) - this would give us time to finish the plans for the faction questlines..
Why cant I simply use an Elder scroll to make my Clocks go slower?
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Yeti
- Lead Developer
- Posts: 2061
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:50 pm
- Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes
First off, it's wonderful seeing you back on the forums, Not. Right now, we're in much need of veteran developers. For the past few months at least, Gnomey has been the glue keeping Tamriel Rebuilt together, and we need more people with his experience to turn the project into a healthy, well-oiled machine again.
At the moment, it might look like nothing is getting done around here, but the Skype meetings have been on-going and productive, even if summaries haven't made their way onto the forums yet. And no one has seriously suggested redoing all of our work completely. If such a suggestion has been made without my knowledge, it should be ignored for obvious reasons.
As much as I appreciate Mangoe's suggestions, I don't think we need a queue system for suggesting changes. We'll get to them when we get to them, using our Section process of developing areas. The Telvanni lands will simply be one part of this process as we finalize Morrowind region by region. Saving House Telvanni as a post-final release afterthought wouldn't work: we need to design the mainland as a cohesive whole, not a hodgepodge of areas with different levels of quality. The Telvannis District is not an island that can be comfortably ignored. Not if we want all the pieces of the province to fit together seamlessly.
That being said, I am curious to see what kind of plan you have in mind, Not. It very well might win me over, if it gives us a good way to track the changes we eventually want to make down the road.
As far as I'm aware, the Ebonheart/Old Ebonheart name discussion concluded on a reasonable note last week, and we'll go with the Empire ego trip solution for the two Ebonhearts moving forward. The only thing really holding back finishing Old Ebonheart is that we don't have an interior for the Castle -- mainly because of how gargantuan a task making one is going to be. Otherwise, we've made significant progress on NPCs and dialogue for the city. In fact, Rats posted a significant document of dialogue entries this very week. [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24615&start=80#top]It's great stuff[/url]. The Old Ebonheart Sewers were also completed relatively recently -- a massive undertaking on its own.
On other fronts, we've been trying our best to finalize the Indoril-Thirr Section's [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25029]NPCs and dialogue[/url] and complete Almas Thirr's interior reorganization. In other words, we aren't completely dead in the water. Real life sapped our ranks at the worst possible time, but it didn't kill us outright. We definitely need to find a much more comfortable middle-ground between planning and implementing plans. But everyone here is aware of the problem and wants a solution.
At the moment, it might look like nothing is getting done around here, but the Skype meetings have been on-going and productive, even if summaries haven't made their way onto the forums yet. And no one has seriously suggested redoing all of our work completely. If such a suggestion has been made without my knowledge, it should be ignored for obvious reasons.
As much as I appreciate Mangoe's suggestions, I don't think we need a queue system for suggesting changes. We'll get to them when we get to them, using our Section process of developing areas. The Telvanni lands will simply be one part of this process as we finalize Morrowind region by region. Saving House Telvanni as a post-final release afterthought wouldn't work: we need to design the mainland as a cohesive whole, not a hodgepodge of areas with different levels of quality. The Telvannis District is not an island that can be comfortably ignored. Not if we want all the pieces of the province to fit together seamlessly.
That being said, I am curious to see what kind of plan you have in mind, Not. It very well might win me over, if it gives us a good way to track the changes we eventually want to make down the road.
As far as I'm aware, the Ebonheart/Old Ebonheart name discussion concluded on a reasonable note last week, and we'll go with the Empire ego trip solution for the two Ebonhearts moving forward. The only thing really holding back finishing Old Ebonheart is that we don't have an interior for the Castle -- mainly because of how gargantuan a task making one is going to be. Otherwise, we've made significant progress on NPCs and dialogue for the city. In fact, Rats posted a significant document of dialogue entries this very week. [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24615&start=80#top]It's great stuff[/url]. The Old Ebonheart Sewers were also completed relatively recently -- a massive undertaking on its own.
On other fronts, we've been trying our best to finalize the Indoril-Thirr Section's [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25029]NPCs and dialogue[/url] and complete Almas Thirr's interior reorganization. In other words, we aren't completely dead in the water. Real life sapped our ranks at the worst possible time, but it didn't kill us outright. We definitely need to find a much more comfortable middle-ground between planning and implementing plans. But everyone here is aware of the problem and wants a solution.
I think this the most reasonable way of handling faction quests at the moment. Factions like the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild really need to take the entire province into consideration. Otherwise, any member of the project should feel free to suggest quest ideas at any time. Just remember to take the culture, current events, and characters of a given area or town into consideration when designing your quests: Gnomey's Vhul quest plans are a perfect example for this. In fact, those should probably be made into claims sooner rather than later.Another idea is to finish the towns without implementing the faction quests and to do this at the very end, when the majority of cities is finished (interiors, NPCs, misc quests) - this would give us time to finish the plans for the faction questlines.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
Yeti, the way I see it is we are making tiny, tiny progress in certain areas. Yes, progress is sort of being made, but it's so small it's barely noticeable. If we are to spend as much time discussing for all of Morrowind's cities and regions as we are with the current ones, progress will never pick up and we won't be done with the project for another 20 years. I support the queue system because it picks up progress. I'll probably support any other solution that does the same. Our current system, however, does not benefit the project, and needs to be changed.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
On the subjects of progress and organization, please, please please come to the skype meetings! And if they are a bad time for you let us know! We really need as many people as possible in those meetings because that's where we toss around ideas and can really discuss them. The more people we have there, the better off we will be and the more and faster progress we can make.
My two cents on the immediate planning process goes roughly like this:
1) Figure out what is our next actual release. OE? Thirr?
2) Get all the planning we need done for those sections.
3) DO those sections.
4) Concurrently with step 3, figure out what our next release section will be, and start planning it. Also continue planning the overall master plan.
5) Minor redos and bugfixes of current areas are acceptable. more than that waits until after we have Tamriel Rebuilt actually complete.
My two cents on the immediate planning process goes roughly like this:
1) Figure out what is our next actual release. OE? Thirr?
2) Get all the planning we need done for those sections.
3) DO those sections.
4) Concurrently with step 3, figure out what our next release section will be, and start planning it. Also continue planning the overall master plan.
5) Minor redos and bugfixes of current areas are acceptable. more than that waits until after we have Tamriel Rebuilt actually complete.
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Yeti
- Lead Developer
- Posts: 2061
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:50 pm
- Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes
Perhaps I've misunderstood Mangoe's suggestion: but to my eyes it reads like a return to TR's prior model of development, basically throwing content together and waiting until later to fix it. Returning to that status quo won't necessarily fix our current activity dilemma.
Historically, Tamriel Rebuilt has cycled through inactive and hyperactive periods of progress. Much like the economy, active membership goes through recessions and recoveries. The current focus on planning and smaller sections might play a role in the current slow-down, but I don't think its the main causation. There are likely other forces at play beyond our control.
Historically, Tamriel Rebuilt has cycled through inactive and hyperactive periods of progress. Much like the economy, active membership goes through recessions and recoveries. The current focus on planning and smaller sections might play a role in the current slow-down, but I don't think its the main causation. There are likely other forces at play beyond our control.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
I'm back! And it's good to see you, Yeti! I was worried you had completely left! I'm really happy to see that's not the case!Yeti wrote:First off, it's wonderful seeing you back on the forums, Not. Right now, we're in much need of veteran developers.
We're not going to re-implement the queue system; it sounds good in theory, but TR has already tried that and it doesn't work for us. We end up so disorganized and different things get done at varying degrees of quality and it just becomes a mess. I do have an idea on how to better organize us, it's a special system that should enable us to be much more organized and efficient. Again, I'll present my idea at the next Skype meeting; I'm still working on a demo for it to show you guys that it can work.RyanS wrote:I support the queue system because it picks up progress. I'll probably support any other solution that does the same. Our current system, however, does not benefit the project, and needs to be changed.
Again, I fully intend to come to this Skype meeting. Not just because of the new plan that I have in mind, but also so that I can help reorganize and hopefully help get this project moving again.10Kaziem wrote:On the subjects of progress and organization, please, please please come to the skype meetings!
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse
Very well then. My main reason for supporting the queue system was that, despite its flaws, it is still better than what we have now. I'm sure that your upcoming proposal will be very good, and probably better than the queue system. As usual I unfortunately won't be attending the Skype meeting for personal reasons. But I definitely want to see the plan laid out on the forums, if it is approved. If it is somehow not approved, I dearly hope another plan could be put together, as I can't say it enough - things really need to change.Not wrote:We're not going to re-implement the queue system; it sounds good in theory, but TR has already tried that and it doesn't work for us. We end up so disorganized and different things get done at varying degrees of quality and it just becomes a mess. I do have an idea on how to better organize us, it's a special system that should enable us to be much more organized and efficient. Again, I'll present my idea at the next Skype meeting; I'm still working on a demo for it to show you guys that it can work.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
Anonytroll suggested I try using bullet points as a way to avoid writing walls of text, and this post was turning into a wall of text, so here goes:
Progress
[spoiler]In my opinion, we've made a lot of progress this last year. To name some of the more notable achievements:
-we changed Indoril from watered down, conservative, oddly outlander friendly Altmer (seriously, there are currently a lot of outlanders in Indoril lands) living in gated communities, plantations and scattered manors into a complex, coherent, and -- at least in my opinion -- interesting society and House with distinct customs, settlements and ideals.
-Hlaalu went from the underhanded Imperial underdog faction to a faction with its own distinct character and objectives.
-the Velothi set and people are no longer boring filler we dump in as a last resort when we can't think of anything better to put somewhere, (with a typical usage of the exterior set being to mash a few domes together and call it a day, but I digress), but have an identity of their own with a specific role to play in Indoril society and Morrowind as a whole.
-perhaps most dubiously, and admittedly it doesn't sound very convincing writing it, we've settled on a stance on the use of the MH set and the future of Almalexia. Old members reading that will probably laugh or cry, but if it sticks it will certainly qualify as an achievement.
In general, while we've got a ways to go yet, I do feel as though our concept of Morrowind has become much more coherent and much less generic. As opposed to a vast and well-made generic world with more-or-less interesting content I think we're working towards an interesting, vast and well-made world with interesting content. In short, I think we've become much better at worldbuilding.
-if we do manage to plan stuff out from the top down, it should speed up every successive step that follows, as each step establishes the framework of the next step and everything after that. When NPCing a specific settlement, we will already know about the settlement, the local area, the local politics and themes, the faction in control of the area, the faction territory, faction politics and themes, Morrowind, Morrowind's geography and Morrowind's politics and themes. We already know which of those affect the settlement to what level. All that remains is to personalize that to give the settlement and its NPCs some character. Basically, we won't have to effectively start from scratch every time we move on to a new region, settlement, quest or NPC, which at least at the moment I think is still the largely case, at least as far as the first two are concerned.[/spoiler]
Lack of Progress
[spoiler]-I think CS progress is still being used as a measuring stick for project activity, as it always has, and as I still think it shouldn't be. The nature of the project has changed; CS work is the most visible part of the process, but by no means the only one, and not the single most important one. (As in I don't think there's a single most important aspect).
-Sometimes CS work will need to take a back seat to other aspects of the project, sometimes the other aspects will take a back seat to CS implementation. The ideal is to establish a balance between the two, of course, but we need to achieve the balance first. Implementation has a headstart of several years over planning, even with all of the revisions, and planning needs to catch up, but completely cutting off implementation until planning can catch up isn't really looking desirable or viable.
-I do think planning has hit somewhat of a roadblock at the moment, linked with the above: I feel as though we still have trouble viewing Morrowind as a coherent whole. We no longer view Morrowind as piles of exterior cells dumped into maps with arbitrary boundaries, but now I feel we mostly see Morrowind as a pile of regions crammed as though by coincidence into a Morrowind-shaped hole.
-more broadly, I think the issue is that we're not able to pin down a coherent vision of Morrowind, which means we are not able to establish a clear plan to work towards, which means we don't have a clear standard to hold our work to, which means that there's still a chance -- to an extent it's already arguably happening -- that we'll end up revising stuff we've been working on since the restructure, which is specifically what the restructure was designed to avoid.
-Which is why I stress the idea that planning is progress so much; planning is necessary for us to avoid future revisions, lack of planning leads to future revisions. (Note that I do say future revisions; the coherent plan does sort of imply the need to bring stuff made before the plan was established up to speed with the plan, though how much work that would actually require is less clear. In the sum, a lot. We are planning to only make any such revisions once we're done with everything else, though).[/spoiler]
Negative Trends
[spoiler]-on that note, I feel as though at the moment the project is edging towards making two of its tried and true mistakes: for one thing, abandoning the current system because it's not fast enough, for another, impatiently leaping over to implementation before we're sure about what we want to create. To be clear, I don't think anyone here is directly advocating that; I just see that as a general tendency, and I might be seeing ghosts.
-I currently feel as though the drive to work in the direction of exteriors->interiors->NPCing, dialogue and worldbuilding is still very present.
-I do however think that the lack of available CS work is a clear problem, and am very open to solutions, as long as they don't involve embracing the cycle of plan a lot of stuff -> get impatient -> implement a lot of stuff without planning -> get dissatisfied with results -> plan a lot of stuff.
-I do think that, as a result of planning hitting a roadblock, we have sort of been waffling about recently. A problem with the current system is that if the planning grinds to a halt, everything else does as well. I certainly haven't managed to find a solution myself, though (some might say because) my general approach has been to try and get better and more efficient at planning. I don't think stuff like the OE/E naming discussion has held up progress; I think the fact we're discussing that stuff is just another sign that progress has already slowed down.[/spoiler]
I do very much think the current system needs to be improved. I've completely failed to come up with solutions myself; I'm trying to do my part in bringing the project forward, and I certainly think I've helped move stuff along in the last year, but at the moment I'm not too sure where to take things, and do think I'm tending towards going in circles.
So I want to make this clear: it isn't my intent to shut down new ideas, I just want to do my part to ensure that any idea we consider seems viable and is an improvement on the current approach. Which I'd say shouldn't be too hard, except I do think we've had it much worse before. I'm perhaps a stronger advocate of the current system than I ought to be, but that's because I'm still convinced it's better than the alternatives I've encountered so far.
Anyway, the wall of text became more like a wall of bullets, but do tell me if this format is at least a little easier to read.
Progress
[spoiler]In my opinion, we've made a lot of progress this last year. To name some of the more notable achievements:
-we changed Indoril from watered down, conservative, oddly outlander friendly Altmer (seriously, there are currently a lot of outlanders in Indoril lands) living in gated communities, plantations and scattered manors into a complex, coherent, and -- at least in my opinion -- interesting society and House with distinct customs, settlements and ideals.
-Hlaalu went from the underhanded Imperial underdog faction to a faction with its own distinct character and objectives.
-the Velothi set and people are no longer boring filler we dump in as a last resort when we can't think of anything better to put somewhere, (with a typical usage of the exterior set being to mash a few domes together and call it a day, but I digress), but have an identity of their own with a specific role to play in Indoril society and Morrowind as a whole.
-perhaps most dubiously, and admittedly it doesn't sound very convincing writing it, we've settled on a stance on the use of the MH set and the future of Almalexia. Old members reading that will probably laugh or cry, but if it sticks it will certainly qualify as an achievement.
In general, while we've got a ways to go yet, I do feel as though our concept of Morrowind has become much more coherent and much less generic. As opposed to a vast and well-made generic world with more-or-less interesting content I think we're working towards an interesting, vast and well-made world with interesting content. In short, I think we've become much better at worldbuilding.
-if we do manage to plan stuff out from the top down, it should speed up every successive step that follows, as each step establishes the framework of the next step and everything after that. When NPCing a specific settlement, we will already know about the settlement, the local area, the local politics and themes, the faction in control of the area, the faction territory, faction politics and themes, Morrowind, Morrowind's geography and Morrowind's politics and themes. We already know which of those affect the settlement to what level. All that remains is to personalize that to give the settlement and its NPCs some character. Basically, we won't have to effectively start from scratch every time we move on to a new region, settlement, quest or NPC, which at least at the moment I think is still the largely case, at least as far as the first two are concerned.[/spoiler]
Lack of Progress
[spoiler]-I think CS progress is still being used as a measuring stick for project activity, as it always has, and as I still think it shouldn't be. The nature of the project has changed; CS work is the most visible part of the process, but by no means the only one, and not the single most important one. (As in I don't think there's a single most important aspect).
-Sometimes CS work will need to take a back seat to other aspects of the project, sometimes the other aspects will take a back seat to CS implementation. The ideal is to establish a balance between the two, of course, but we need to achieve the balance first. Implementation has a headstart of several years over planning, even with all of the revisions, and planning needs to catch up, but completely cutting off implementation until planning can catch up isn't really looking desirable or viable.
-I do think planning has hit somewhat of a roadblock at the moment, linked with the above: I feel as though we still have trouble viewing Morrowind as a coherent whole. We no longer view Morrowind as piles of exterior cells dumped into maps with arbitrary boundaries, but now I feel we mostly see Morrowind as a pile of regions crammed as though by coincidence into a Morrowind-shaped hole.
-more broadly, I think the issue is that we're not able to pin down a coherent vision of Morrowind, which means we are not able to establish a clear plan to work towards, which means we don't have a clear standard to hold our work to, which means that there's still a chance -- to an extent it's already arguably happening -- that we'll end up revising stuff we've been working on since the restructure, which is specifically what the restructure was designed to avoid.
-Which is why I stress the idea that planning is progress so much; planning is necessary for us to avoid future revisions, lack of planning leads to future revisions. (Note that I do say future revisions; the coherent plan does sort of imply the need to bring stuff made before the plan was established up to speed with the plan, though how much work that would actually require is less clear. In the sum, a lot. We are planning to only make any such revisions once we're done with everything else, though).[/spoiler]
Negative Trends
[spoiler]-on that note, I feel as though at the moment the project is edging towards making two of its tried and true mistakes: for one thing, abandoning the current system because it's not fast enough, for another, impatiently leaping over to implementation before we're sure about what we want to create. To be clear, I don't think anyone here is directly advocating that; I just see that as a general tendency, and I might be seeing ghosts.
-I currently feel as though the drive to work in the direction of exteriors->interiors->NPCing, dialogue and worldbuilding is still very present.
-I do however think that the lack of available CS work is a clear problem, and am very open to solutions, as long as they don't involve embracing the cycle of plan a lot of stuff -> get impatient -> implement a lot of stuff without planning -> get dissatisfied with results -> plan a lot of stuff.
-I do think that, as a result of planning hitting a roadblock, we have sort of been waffling about recently. A problem with the current system is that if the planning grinds to a halt, everything else does as well. I certainly haven't managed to find a solution myself, though (some might say because) my general approach has been to try and get better and more efficient at planning. I don't think stuff like the OE/E naming discussion has held up progress; I think the fact we're discussing that stuff is just another sign that progress has already slowed down.[/spoiler]
I do very much think the current system needs to be improved. I've completely failed to come up with solutions myself; I'm trying to do my part in bringing the project forward, and I certainly think I've helped move stuff along in the last year, but at the moment I'm not too sure where to take things, and do think I'm tending towards going in circles.
So I want to make this clear: it isn't my intent to shut down new ideas, I just want to do my part to ensure that any idea we consider seems viable and is an improvement on the current approach. Which I'd say shouldn't be too hard, except I do think we've had it much worse before. I'm perhaps a stronger advocate of the current system than I ought to be, but that's because I'm still convinced it's better than the alternatives I've encountered so far.
Anyway, the wall of text became more like a wall of bullets, but do tell me if this format is at least a little easier to read.
A very good post, Gnomey. Much of it I agree with. I do, however, have some counter points.
For one, I agree that in one perspective, more than just a tiny bit of progress has been made over the last year. However, this progress has dealt solely with planning and discussion. My point is actually backed by your post, where all things under 'Progress' deal with achievements in good planning. I do believe that many of our yearly achievements should directly relate to planning. But all of them? An issue begins to form with this.
And don't get me wrong. I believe that planning matters very much. And I agree that we'll need a lot of planning for cities, regions, etc. etc. However, I'm sure that there is a great way to unite both planning and CS work at the same time. I hope that at tomorrow's meeting, Not might hopefully prove this.
As a last note, I don't think this coming proposal will end up being a mistake. As I see it, all major directions we as a project have taken so far have been mistakes, be it because of too much CS work and not enough planning, or too much planning and not enough CS work. I am very hopeful that this coming proposal will lead to a perfect merge between the two.
And with that, after some second thoughts and an analyzation of my plans tomorrow, I might join the Skype meeting after all, in order to listen in and see exactly what goes on with this new proposal.
For one, I agree that in one perspective, more than just a tiny bit of progress has been made over the last year. However, this progress has dealt solely with planning and discussion. My point is actually backed by your post, where all things under 'Progress' deal with achievements in good planning. I do believe that many of our yearly achievements should directly relate to planning. But all of them? An issue begins to form with this.
And don't get me wrong. I believe that planning matters very much. And I agree that we'll need a lot of planning for cities, regions, etc. etc. However, I'm sure that there is a great way to unite both planning and CS work at the same time. I hope that at tomorrow's meeting, Not might hopefully prove this.
As a last note, I don't think this coming proposal will end up being a mistake. As I see it, all major directions we as a project have taken so far have been mistakes, be it because of too much CS work and not enough planning, or too much planning and not enough CS work. I am very hopeful that this coming proposal will lead to a perfect merge between the two.
And with that, after some second thoughts and an analyzation of my plans tomorrow, I might join the Skype meeting after all, in order to listen in and see exactly what goes on with this new proposal.
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
I'm going to try and introduce a new system where claims and CS work can be better implemented along side actual planning and discussion. One of the biggest issues I can see that's holding back this project as a whole is not so much the actual planning, but the lack of organization when it comes to managing claims and coordinating with the actual planning.RyanS wrote:I'm sure that there is a great way to unite both planning and CS work at the same time. I hope that at tomorrow's meeting, Not might hopefully prove this.
Yes, planning IS holding us back and I do aim to counteract that. Planning is very important, but when it takes months to come up with a simple decision revolving OE and E, or what a chapel should look like in Roa Dyr (and these are just two examples of many,) something needs to happen. I do not believe that if we started putting out work for developers, that we'd see a lack of quality content and have to redo it. Rather, I believe that if we had everything more organized, it would make things easier for everyone, both the planning and the implementing.
There is no perfect system, we're always going to have downtime, we're always going to have periods of inactivity and that's perfectly natural; this is a hobby project and you can always expect to see some lows. What RyanS and myself are trying to point out is that yes, we'd like to see more CS work, but it's the fact that all this planning and discussing is beginning to bottleneck the project. I don't need to wait a year to come to a simple decision regarding OE and E for example. Most decisions should only take a week or so (tops) to figure out. Obviously there will be some exceptions, Almalexia and the direction of this project are two very big ones that need to take more time.
However, in the few short days since I've been back, I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much the fact that we need to plan before we implement that's holding us down, but rather the disorganization of everything as a whole. Most of us are running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, not knowing where to go. We ran out of claims, no one wants to sift through the huge pile of shit that's been accumulating for 10+ years now, and what's the point of presenting a showcase when new potential developers are unable to contribute anything?
We can discuss whether or not you want a top-down approach or a bottom-up approach. Either way, I don't believe for a second that it was our original bottom-up approach that screwed up everything and I certainly don't believe that coming up with a new order for the steps is ultimately going to change much. Personally, (and I know everyone's going to think I'm nuts for this, (I'm not nuts, I'm Not,)) I think that as long as we plan properly and coordinate well between planning and implementing, there really doesn't need to be a specific way in how we decide to go about new regions, (provided we use common sense of course.)
The biggest issue, the thing that's halted CS work and discouraged potential Developers is in fact the disorganized claims section. We have an outdated system that is so messed up and no one wants to touch it because it's overwhelming. I believe that if you fix the claims system, make it easier to coordinate between the planning and the implementing while at the same time keeping everything organized and transparent so everyone knows what's going on, that our jobs could be much easier.
Bottom line: You can talk about a top to bottom approach or a bottom to top approach, but unless you start organizing the claims and work load and create better coordination between implementation and planning, nothing is going to change. Hence why tomorrow at the Skype meeting, I plan on presenting a plan that will help with coordination and finally phase out our outdated claim system. It's a very radical change, but it DOES work, and we have friends that are willing to assist us, but I'll talk more on both those points tomorrow during the skype meeting :p
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse
Okay, I took what Not said in the skype meeting and worked out a practical system for working on the claims with the new system Not brought up.
Nots original post in the skype meeting was the following:
"Ok, I have a suggestion on what is needed to move forward in TR. Undetailed claims. You can make a claim that is undetailed and it will act as a placeholder for planning that has not yet been planned through enough. The advantage of this is that you don't need months and months of planning to do this. Once the very basic concept is down, meshes can be placed without too much emphasis on bleeding/detail. This will give a better idea on what atmosphere/environment will come out of it And after the area is planned better, these meshes can be used for reference, be easily moved to accommodate plans made and detailed."
The exact procedure happens as follows:
1. A claim is available
2. A developer claims the first section/phase of work on the claim
3. The developer works until he/she runs out of time and posts the unfinished esp the same day, right after he/she is done
4. The next developer claims the next section/phase of work and does the same
5. This procedure happens as many times as needed, until the claim is finished
Discussion happens parallel to that in the claims thread.
With this system we can make claims group projects with the possibility of discussing the building process of an interior/exterior while knowing exactly at what stage a claim currently is - because the current unfinished esp is available to download - or to claim, if someone feels creative right now
--------------------
EDIT:
There is the danger that too much claims can be worked on, because the freedom that system provides may make some people think "well, I can work on what I want" - which is not wrong, but its easy to get bogged down, as I said. So I suggest implementing a limit of 3-4 claims active at the same time, to make sure that IF someone works on a claim he returns to an active one and contributes to its finishing
Quest claims should be handled different, because they get completely designed before the CS even gets turned on
Nots original post in the skype meeting was the following:
"Ok, I have a suggestion on what is needed to move forward in TR. Undetailed claims. You can make a claim that is undetailed and it will act as a placeholder for planning that has not yet been planned through enough. The advantage of this is that you don't need months and months of planning to do this. Once the very basic concept is down, meshes can be placed without too much emphasis on bleeding/detail. This will give a better idea on what atmosphere/environment will come out of it And after the area is planned better, these meshes can be used for reference, be easily moved to accommodate plans made and detailed."
The exact procedure happens as follows:
1. A claim is available
2. A developer claims the first section/phase of work on the claim
3. The developer works until he/she runs out of time and posts the unfinished esp the same day, right after he/she is done
4. The next developer claims the next section/phase of work and does the same
5. This procedure happens as many times as needed, until the claim is finished
Discussion happens parallel to that in the claims thread.
With this system we can make claims group projects with the possibility of discussing the building process of an interior/exterior while knowing exactly at what stage a claim currently is - because the current unfinished esp is available to download - or to claim, if someone feels creative right now
--------------------
EDIT:
There is the danger that too much claims can be worked on, because the freedom that system provides may make some people think "well, I can work on what I want" - which is not wrong, but its easy to get bogged down, as I said. So I suggest implementing a limit of 3-4 claims active at the same time, to make sure that IF someone works on a claim he returns to an active one and contributes to its finishing
Quest claims should be handled different, because they get completely designed before the CS even gets turned on
Last edited by NathanJ on Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why cant I simply use an Elder scroll to make my Clocks go slower?
Interest status:Not wrote:I don't really want to go into details here, I'm still working on a sort of demo release of the plan I have in mind, and I think presenting it at the Skype meeting will be much more feasible. I just hope that people are receptive to it, because it makes perfect sense, would save us so much trouble in so many areas, and the only reason I could think of NOT to implement it is because well....more discussions on how to go about it.
not piqued [ ]
piqued [x]
There's a good chance that I'll miss the meeting though, so if somebody could post a draft of it here afterward, I (and future readers) would appreciate at least a link to the meeting summary
Not sure why the "BUT"; this sort of coherence is a big part of what the second pass is forNathanJ wrote: BUT the faction questlines work on a province-wide basis. We have to implement a faction-wide plan in the special case of the town we are currently working on, even if its not yet perfect. After we have finished every major town we should eliminate the majority of mistakes in our plan, even if that means redoing or adjusting some quests.
When exactly is that?Yeti wrote:We'll get to them when we get to them, using our Section process of developing areas
On top of that, anything that requires cohesion between regions will be more sensible with a full map, and even more sensible with an incubation period so that flipflopping on its implementation will be minimized; if we simply change an area every time we have a doubt on its quality, we might redo an area several times that could be circumvented by waiting for people to get more time for discussion, which is part of what the queue system would accomplish.
Yeti wrote:The Telvanni lands will simply be one part of this process as we finalize Morrowind region by region. Saving House Telvanni as a post-final release afterthought wouldn't work: we need to design the mainland as a cohesive whole, not a hodgepodge of areas with different levels of quality. The Telvannis District is not an island that can be comfortably ignored. Not if we want all the pieces of the province to fit together seamlessly.
- The first pass is not at all the final release; cohesion is ensured during the second pass, or maybe we'll decide to take a third or fourth or whatever, but the first pass is to get enough
- designing the mainland as a cohesive whole makes a lot more sense when there's an entire mainland to cohere, rather than a set of chunks that get cohered before another chunk gets glued on. It would enable us to assess the impacts of regions that aren't yet implemented
- Telvanni would be a lot less of an afterthought, because we would have the entire remainder of the first pass to contemplate and discuss its implementation, rather than just using exactly how much planning we presently have. Under the queue model, botches and mistakes get a lot more time to be figured out, which reduces the risk of repeat redoings, and keeps our progress visible.
- The Telvannis District won't be ignored; it will be addressed in the second pass.
This is a significant part of what the commentary queueing is intended to accomplish, the only difference is that I promote an entirety rather than a majority, but it really doesn't matter that much; more quests would simply become part of the first pass, and would get second passed if the final little pieces introduced problems.NathanJ wrote:Another idea is to finish the towns without implementing the faction quests and to do this at the very end, when the majority of cities is finished (interiors, NPCs, misc quests) - this would give us time to finish the plans for the faction questlines..
Yeti wrote:Perhaps I've misunderstood Mangoe's suggestion: but to my eyes it reads like a return to TR's prior model of development, basically throwing content together and waiting until later to fix it. Returning to that status quo won't necessarily fix our current activity dilemma.
- Hodgepodge has no specific redo timing, while the queue does
- The queue enforces a thought period before redoing something, which solves Hodgepodge's issue of ficklety resulting in high redo quantity
- All parts must cohere, so until all parts exist, coherence is tentative at best and impossible at worst; Hodgepodge does not take this into account
(Also, I do acknowledge that TES isn't really walking our way, but openMW is thriving despite that, which in my view would illustrate that it's not the water quality that's hurting this fish.)
Same boat. Fortunately, this thread appears to have picked up a lot of steam in the last day or two.Not wrote:Either way, this project is going to start moving forward pretty soon because I absolutely refuse to see it die or continue on the way it has been.
This has been done before? Additionally, the first pass isn't the final release; its being a mess is entirely acceptable.Not wrote:We're not going to re-implement the queue system; it sounds good in theory, but TR has already tried that and it doesn't work for us. We end up so disorganized and different things get done at varying degrees of quality and it just becomes a mess.
Something very similar has been done like this before, pre '08 era of TR.Mangoes wrote:This has been done before? Additionally, the first pass isn't the final release; its being a mess is entirely acceptable.
What ended up happening was things kept getting disorganized because people didn't fully understand the system and then we ended up having to redo just about everything we put out because it was that bad.
I'd rather not go through that again, especially when we do have not one but two different ideas on how to handle claims and the overall workflow of the project and both of them look pretty good. I already went over one of the potential plans in this thread [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25122]here[/url] and I plan on going over the second plan pretty soon, once I get some sleep.
Not another memory
...And so my bad karma gets worse
...And so my bad karma gets worse