Old Ebonheart: things to be done

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:50 pm

I'd like to put together a to-do list, so we can keep track of progress. I'm not the most well-versed modder here though, so technical input and suggestions are welcome. This is what I have so far:

Old Ebonheart (Town)

- Any remodelling necessary (i'm hoping we can get away with little to none)

- A few interiors to be remade [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24343](see here)[/url]

- NPCing

- Quests(FG, TG, IC, MG, Misc)

Old Ebonheart (Castle)

- Possible remodelling to include a naval dock, including new meshes [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24341](see here)[/url]

- Interior needs going over and redoing where necessary

- NPCing

- Quests (IL, Misc)

I'm sure there is more to be done, and if anyone who understands these things better can offer suggestions, please do.

Rats edit: stickied

Post by **Gnomey** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:26 pm

One could consider adding one or two islands to the Thirr delta to match the changes to the west bank:

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/35/31s2.jpg[/img]

Maybe something like this:

[img]http://imageshack.com/a/img198/1550/4y1r.jpg[/img]

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:11 pm

Sounds reasonable

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:40 pm

I know Swiftoak had some ideas about altering the street layout. Given that waiting for this seems to be holding all other progress up i'm inclined to say speak now or forever hold your peace.

An exterior remodelling might be an improvement but I don't think it's absolutely essential here.

Edit: rot informs me this may already be a moot issue. If so, great.

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:49 am

gro-Dhal wrote:I know Swiftoak had some ideas about altering the street layout. Given that waiting for this seems to be holding all other progress up i'm inclined to say speak now or forever hold your peace.

An exterior remodelling might be an improvement but I don't think it's absolutely essential here.

Edit: rot informs me this may already be a moot issue. If so, great.

I have been a bit absent lately, so I no doubt missed this conversation, but Swiftoak, can you elaborate here on what designs you have specifically for the streets? I'd like to have a record here of what you plan to change, etc., for reference and comment.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:51 am

It's a moot point since my original gripes with the city's visual design are a personal opinion and don't really merit holding back further progress. Basically I wanted more integration with landscape (more distinct districts, incorporating landscape/more height differentiation and making the layout more organic akin to a European city, but this is not high priority). I really do like the narrow streets by the way. Our major cities should be quite distinct and IMO OE is still not quite there in those terms. It is beautiful though. Perhaps this is an issue that we can solve through character building rather than large-scale CS work however.

If anything right now the only real exterior change I'd advocate for is making the castle wharf rock formation thingy, but that can also be done at a later point.

On a more important note, I do have some unfinished concepts around for the Imperial Navy that I'd like to put forth once I have more time to work on them. And Jule's cartography maps ofc.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:56 am

If you have a finished version of that awesome Navy symbol you designed that'd be great! (for tapestries, flags, ship sails...)

If anything right now the only real exterior change I'd advocate for is making the castle wharf rock formation thingy, but that can also be done at a later point.

+1. otherwise OE looks pretty much done exterior-wise. we only need revisions of some of the interiors (currently either claimed or unlocked claims) and the somewhat humongous task of rethinking the way the sewers are.

solve through character building

agreed. well-thought, well-coordinated npcing will make this city vehking sweet.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:14 am

Tondollari asked if we're ready to talk faction quests. I think we are? I think it's best to begin that process before NPCing, personally.

It means we need to come up with broad ideas for each faction and how they reflect the situation in the city.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:13 pm

Yeah, I think we're ready to discuss factions.

So that'd be (in order of importance):

_The Imperial Guilds (Fighters, Mages, Thieves)
_The Legion & the Cult

(_The IAS, provided we decide to the HQ in the Kemel-ze questline somehow)

I'd disregard the EEC completely for now (unless someone comes up with an awesome business idea for 'em like importing horses to Morrowind).

___

I have some vague ideas for both the Thieves and the Fighters in OE, but haven't had the time to write anything down yet. Real Life is killing me (with work that is). The FG leadership in OE would be somewhat oblivious to the Camonna Tong influence on their guild elsewhere in the province and would awaken to counter it only at some point during the questline (at which point, i figured, the head honcho of the guild would be killed in a violent confrontation with the pro-CT guild members [based in Narsis maybe?]). [IIRC immpigs had some plans made for the FG overall questline; i'd love to see them]

I'll try and come up with a response to Yeti's wonderful TG design thread. Figured the TG in OE would also be less about the underworld gang war and more about collecting sweet loot. The Castle, the sewers and the Raathim tomb with all the Empress-level booty should make regular thievery more than interesting.

Maybe we should have a new brainstorming session on Skype sometime in the near future?

__

an unrelated note: i'm typing this in munich and the keyboards here are weird. they've switched the places of 'y' and 'z' keys.

Post by **arvisrend** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:11 am

Rats wrote:Yeah, I think we're ready to discuss factions.

So that'd be (in order of importance):

_The Imperial Guilds (Fighters, Mages, Thieves)
_The Legion & the Cult

(_The IAS, provided we decide to the HQ in the Kemel-ze questline somehow)

I'd disregard the EEC completely for now (unless someone comes up with an awesome business idea for 'em like importing horses to Morrowind).

+1. I am glad you have plans for FG and TG, since I have a plan for the MG and some very rough ideas on IL and IC. (The OE castle vaults, however, have been robbed by unknown bandits as the player reached the shores. The MG questline in OE is to solve this whodunit, since the MG was delegated with protecting the vaults in the first place.)

Needless to say, I'd like to participate in the skyping.

Rats wrote:an unrelated note: i'm typing this in munich and the keyboards here are weird. they've switched the places of 'y' and 'z' keys.

I find this extremelz annozing as well.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:41 pm

Rats wrote: Maybe we should have a new brainstorming session on Skype sometime in the near future?

Agreed. This coming Sunday suits me, or possibly the weekend after.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:17 pm

Ah, I'm so late with this reply, but the weekend after this would probably suit me the best. I'd hope to have some more notes in each of the guild threads before the Skype meeting.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:16 pm

Ah again, real life's been keeping me busy both for good and for bad. I haven't had time to be present in IRC, so I don't know what has been agreed over there, but I'm assuming we're not having an OE related discussion over Skype this weekend? How'bout postponing it for another week?

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:26 pm

Yeah sure.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:38 am

Who knows how to make claims? We need some exterior work done. Gnomey's islands (see upthread), and the remodelling of the rock under the castle to include a cavern for ships (or do we need to wait for the warships to be in data so the modder can judge scale?).

Post by **rot** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:20 pm

I'm not sure exactly how this all works for exts but re: Gnomey islands, it very likely should not have a new claim made but rather use the existing claim for OE exteriors? (M3a1?)

Or do you think exterior modders don't follow conversations in section boards and a claim would serve as announcement? (AFAIK all currently active exterior modders are already working on a claim or do follow this)

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:31 pm

rot wrote:I'm not sure exactly how this all works for exts but re: Gnomey islands, it very likely should not have a new claim made but rather use the existing claim for OE exteriors? (M3a1?)

Or do you think exterior modders don't follow conversations in section boards and a claim would serve as announcement? (AFAIK all currently active exterior modders are already working on a claim or do follow this)

I would prefer to open it up by making an official thing.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:43 pm

Is this a significant amount of reworking or just some changing about of some islands? If it's the latter, the OE exterior claim should be re-opened. If it's the former, we can re-size the OE claim and make a new one to take up the newly unowned cells. As for the cave, I think we should wait to see what size the ships will be.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat May 10, 2014 5:03 pm

Haplo wrote:Is this a significant amount of reworking or just some changing about of some islands? If it's the latter, the OE exterior claim should be re-opened. If it's the former, we can re-size the OE claim and make a new one to take up the newly unowned cells. As for the cave, I think we should wait to see what size the ships will be.

I don't know what qualifies as a small or large job when it comes to exteriors. It's just a few small islands that need adding.

And I think we have ship models somewhere, they need to be modified with Swiftoak's naval emblem on the sails then they can go into Data.

I dunno how to create claims cos i'm stoopid

Post by **rot** » Sun May 11, 2014 2:24 am

OE map "claim" [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=322098#322098]reopened[/url] and here's the pro forma [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=322099]object claim for the wharf[/url]

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sun May 11, 2014 8:09 am

Thanks rot

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:46 am

So I promised to figure out what parts of the sewer to keep and where the exits should be. I haven't done that yet cos i'm having busy times, sorry.

Apart from that, does anyone know of any lawful reason we can't start talking about NPCing the town in earnest?

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:47 am

I can't think of a compelling reason not to start populating the town. Most of the key characters we still need to flesh out will live in the castle.

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:39 am

1 Int need to be finished, cave dock need to be made and sewers are not done yet. But I think most of OE is ready to be filled with NPCs.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:09 pm

Don't forget about the whole castle interior itself. That is still something big that could hold up the npc's.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:58 pm

I don't think there's any reason we couldn't or shouldn't start NPCing the town, even if the Castle/Navy base/sewer interiors aren't finished.

Some key locations (guildhalls, homes of VIP people, the grand chapel, etc.) should be brainstormed in the forums or in IRC (where I've been absent for months, I admit).

Regarding the sewers: I don't know if you've discussed them on the IRC, but I've got some ideas where the exits/entrances could be and how the current sewer interiors would situate themselves in this new order. Will draw a map of in the days to come. I've also taken the liberty to scramble together a faint concept of what the Raathim tomb should look like in the CS. Will post it on the forums when more complete.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:37 pm

What is the current theme for the OE palace going to be? Is OE being kind of phased out by the Vvardenfell Ebonheart? Is there going to be less figures of power there? Are we thinking corruption, or any kind of ulterior/outside power struggles?

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:46 am

I think gro-Dhal's original post in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24304]concept thread[/url] is the thing we want for OE Castle as well. I quote his key theme bullet points:

gro-Dhal wrote:
-Grandeur/prosperity
-Isolation (from the surrounding Dunmer lands)
-Looming decline
-The Empire embodied in a city

The castle of Old Ebonheart is the See of Imperial power. It's rich and strong and at its peak, its statesmen and nobles and generals are all (at least seemingly) working together for the Empire's cause -- the only way to go from there is down.

There is no Dunmer influenced corruption per se from the outside. There's no need for it. Old Ebonheart's downfall will be that it's trying to maintain a 'mini Cyrodiil' within a province that's nothing like Cyrodiil.

Whatever schisms and power struggles there are within the city are ripples of what is going on in the Imperial City.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:38 am

What we do with the castle hinges on our wider plans for the Empire, but more importantly figuring out who resides in the castle. Did we ever get that figured out? I don't really know if that was considered when it was built in the CS, but think we can make it work if someone came up with a list or something, perhaps on how we should section the interior.

But I agree with the above sentiments. I think we have a decent plan for the city proper so we should talk about NPCing it. Before we do hwoever, we should start to merge all the interiors, and that's a big task. Don't let the castle hold back progress here.

Nobody is working on M3A1 (basically the OE section file), so we should archive it and start a thread for people to claim it to do this work.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:16 am

Thanks for the answer, rot.

So it's at its peak as far as influence. Awesome, makes sense and I can see the reasoning of grand splendor, perhaps even grandeur. Almost like how in the US some corporations are "too big to fail", which generally just means pompous assery.

Perhaps there can be some discontent, or maybe a fleeting uncertainty, amongst certain residents in the palace, or a treasurer that seems a little anxious. Is the gold still flowing like a river into the city?

Some kind of semblance or justification of how the area is in just as much of a decline as the rest of the nation? I know NPC'ing just started on the town, which is awesome. After I get my showcase together maybe I can try to take a stab at some OE quests that will mirror this, maybe a coded message here or there to correspondents to different areas?

Maybe alms have been a little dry in the chapels lately? I would still love to see the magnificence of the power the people hold there, as well. I think, with the upcoming NPC'ing, there will be a lot more to see as the people are fleshed out, in regards to overall theme or tone of the entire city. Perhaps this would be a good way to touch on pre-Oblivion politics as I'd assume this try-hard "mini Cyrodiil" would be in constant contact with the real Cryodiil, perhaps even being the Emperor's looking glass into the state of the province.

I think having a 'new' Ebonheart on Vvardenfell would be seen as a kind of shaming thing to the people who live in Ebonheart, like the Empire has a new baby it wants to pay attention to (i.e., give funding, resources, and more power) to. Not in a jealousy sense, but maybe it could play into how funding is spend kind of sporadically through the Empire? Also, when in correlation of Vivec and Ebonheart, is there maybe a type of pattern we could have apparent, or perhaps have some castle officials/NCPs comment on the comical predicaments of the situation?

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:45 pm

There are a few minor changes I would like made to Old Ebonheart -- and if nobody else feels up for it would like to make to Old Ebonheart -- which I have mentioned on IRC and on Skype but didn't want to post here until after the 15.12 release, to retain my sanity.

Changes to Old Ebonheart:
-change dirtroad to mainroad - fairly simple and straightforward.
-remove excess smoke from chimneys. I was dubious as to whether all of the houses with smoke actually had active fireplaces in them. Some of them have no fireplaces at all. For those buildings, I'd either like to remove the chimney entirely or add some sort of fireplace or at least smoke vent to the interiors. - again, the implementation would be simple enough; the main work here is figuring out what to do with which chimneys.
-changing/improving the sign outside 'Eurilon: Weaponsmith', which looks rather cobbled together.
-make adjustments to the coastline to remove the lumpy rock look. - this one's harder to judge, but should be quite straightforward.
-add detailing at dock - I made an image for this one. To avoid delays and maintain performance I don't think we should go overboard here; just try and add a bit of flavour
[url=http://i.imgur.com/cfab3Bt.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/cfab3Btl.png[/img][/url]
-increase height of Old Ebonheart Castle's towers - at the moment, I'm just thinking a very modest extension of the bell tower, which probably won't even require a change to the interior shell:
[url=http://i.imgur.com/YPbWar8.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/YPbWar8l.png[/img][/url]

The last proposal, I think, requires a little more explanation.

Basically, there are two related reasons for my wanting to heighten the profile of Old Ebonheart Castle:
First of all, I feel as though in changing Old Ebonheart Castle from its original over-the-top look we may have gone a little too far in the other direction and, while Old Ebonheart Castle is sprawling, I feel as though it may look slightly too mundane.
Second of all, I feel that having an Ebonheart Castle and Old Ebonheart Castle is redundant. Rather than removing one of them, which would be really silly, I felt we could just distinguish their purposes. As Old Ebonheart is effectively supposed to be the Imperial City in Morrowind, that wasn't too hard: Old Ebonheart Castle is not a castle, but a White-Gold Tower stand-in.
Basically, I think with a slight change we can strengthen OE Castle both visually and conceptually.

I also considered in some way linking the central tower to eight outlying towers, again to mirror White-Gold Tower, [url=http://imgur.com/z0BJxzF]but[/url] [url=http://imgur.com/lTzKVNk]got[/url] [url=http://imgur.com/HDz60dx]carried[/url] [url=http://imgur.com/8xCM9DK]away[/url].

Edit: also, for fun and contrast, [url=http://i.imgur.com/XnGBcdE.png]here[/url] was my original mock-up, though it's worth mentioning that the intention there was to convey the general idea rather than to propose how to implement it.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:42 pm

For the most part, I support these changes. I am, though, a little dubious on the proposed castle changes.

One could still argue that the castle is grand enough, and I think much of the required grandeur will already come from the interior. I think my doubtful view comes partly from your picture of the altered tower, which sort of has me cringing right now. This doesn't mean I don't want to see some new designs for the main tower, though. I just want to make sure the final results are very good, and will fit in well with the game.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:52 pm

These seem good changes IMO. Especially cluttering up the Docks and adding the fishermen's pier in the unused beach area is something I like. (The Docks' fancy entrance should have OE banners, not the standard Imperial dragon banner though)

After some consideration I've decided that I like the proposed new look for the bell tower -- hard to tell from the CS screenshot whether or not it'll look good in the game, but I say go for it. I really like the little red and blue flags, so if you can find a way to naturally add them in the Castle please do.

Post by **Seneca37** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:09 pm

Dirt to main road = good change

Excess chimneys = good, but be sure to check all interiors and set accordingly. I know that the removal of the smoke is to help with the frame-rate in the area - but unsure how significant it will be.

sign = good change, its been commented on a couple of times in irc; some people do not realize its a sign.

Coast line = another good idea. Be sure to go around the castle as well, there are some bare spots.

Dock detailing = ok - have same concerns as you do, keep it simple.

Modified tower =(from the image) looks good. Do we still want a dragon statue on top of that?

I'm not against the additional small flags, but not how they were used in the 'carried away' image - that looks a bit too much like a circus.

From recent in-game play-testing, I noticed, or should I say, did not notice, the OE castle from Vivec. There is nothing to make it stand out. Its a greenish castle set upon greenish rocks. The Naval ship in the harbor does stand out. Be sure that there are at least banners on the North side to draw someone attention when viewed from Vivec.
Or we may need to do something else to the castle to make it the focal point.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:52 pm

About the small flags, they somehow made me think of this bit from 2920,The Last Year of the First Era:

6 Evening Star, 2920
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil
The Emperor Reman III sat on his throne, surveying the audience chamber. It was a spectacular sight: silver ribbons dangled from the rafters, burning cauldrons of sweet herbs simmered in every corner, Pyandonean swallowtails sweeping through the air, singing their songs. When the torches were lit and servants began fanning, the room would be transfigured into a shimmering fantasy land. He could smell the kitchen already, spices and roasts.

^This paragraph has something that'd be great if we could capture. Since the Empire is not medieval Europe it would be nice to have some of the festive Imperial weirdness that is present in the quote and, say, MK's concept art. I agree with seneca that the Castle shouldn't look as if the circus was in town, but the flags add something new and colorful to the brutalistic Imperial tileset. Maybe adding some more of the hanging ivy would be a good idea also?