House Dres Brainstorming

[gro-Dhal]

2. Settlement Spaces.

Each Dres settlement is ruled by and closely identified with a particular House. They practice a form of gerontocracy- the oldest competent member of a house is its leader and representative. In the larger settlements the heads of major families form a ruling council.

Dres towns are characterised by forbidding, looming architecture and densely packed buildings. Large cities use cantons, with the elites living on the topmost level and the slaves in the pits below, with everyone else in between. Smaller towns and villages roughly replicate this structure without the use of the canton.

The Dres fortify their settlements near the Black Marsh border. However, as well as being defensible against external threats Dres towns are also designed to be locked down quickly in the case of a slave uprising. This means sections that can be sealed off and isolated, and defensive fortifications to guard against threats from both within and without.

In general the larger settlements handle the import and distribution of slaves and administrate the export of saltrice, while the smaller settlements actually produce the crop.

All Dres settlements of any size will feature:

-A manor for the local ruler
-Slave holding facilities (usually pits)
-One or more ancestor pylons, probably near the manor

The ancestor pylon is an outdoor shrine that takes the place of the temple or chapel in other factions' settlements.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Has any read Scorpia Rising by Anthony Horowitz? At one point a guy falls into a giant pile of salt, with the following results:

Something horrible was happening to him. The salt had penetrated his skin, working its way through the pores. It was as if he were being cooked alive inside the huge pile. White foam began to bubble out of his mouth. It trailed out his eyes. Alex was reminded of a garden slug. He had heard it said that slugs died horribly if they were rolled in salt.

I don't know how accurate that is, or if it would work with Argonian anatomy, but it could be a technique the Dres use to execute slaves.

[Adanorcil]

Besides, what's the difference between a House and a clan, anyway. I'd imagine that at that point in history the two concepts weren't nearly as different as they are now.

For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think there is a meaningful distinction.

[MorrowindShorts]

Judging by what I read about House Dres they are very harsh and ruthless. I could imagine them being very racist(especially to beast folk). If you are playing as a beast race, house members would despise you and spit racial insults. Like "Sap licker" for example or "Where is you're bracer you filthy beast?" I could also picture the NPCs giving you very dark and sick quests. Such as the vanilla quest "Rabinna's Inner Beauty". Slave Hunters should also be present,and slave owners should keep Argonian eggs in special rooms that are called "hatchery's" tended by egg keepers. I also really like the Idea of the council consisting of Vampires. In the Dawnguard expansion for Skyrim the NPC Garan Marethi a Vampire of the Volkihar clan, was a member of House Dres. Also some slaves should act almost brainwashed as if work is all they know. And finally Twin Lamp members would also be an interesting addition to Dres territory. Maybe even a faction. My main belief is that House Dres NPCs(Mostly house kin and Slavers)should be very ruthless, and dark.

Pardon my Grammar ( :

[Gnomey]

I was thinking a little about Dres cantons and this GT Noonan [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archive-gt-noonan]quote[/url] on Dunmer Strongholds:

Best Westerns. The were basically fortified stronghold/checkpoint/hotels for travelers. There are no records of any of the strongholds ever being held under siege or used in any battles/wars, but it is quite possible that they were used for warriors as layover posts while travelling.

What if Dres cantons, rather than being similar to Vivec's cantons, started out as strongholds scattered over the Deshaan plains? Those strongholds were used as market places by the local bugherds, and over time attracted settlement and formed the core of many Dres towns and cities.

That could make a rough early history of House Dres unfold as follows:
At first, you have Dunmer bugherds living like Ashlanders in nomadic camps, ranging the as-yet uncultivated Deshaan Plains.
As their territories became established through constant fighting, it became expedient to construct strongholds to aid the warriors in crossing the tribe's territory to defend it, as well as to allow them to survey the territory.
The strongholds proved to be very useful as layover posts, and the locals transitioned to a semi-nomadic lifestyle in which they would typically set up camp near a stronghold, the strongholds becoming centers of inter-territory trade.
Eventually more permanent huts began to be constructed at the foot of the stronghold platform, while the local chieftains began to live in buildings on-top of the platform. The interior of the platform may have found use as a communal ancestral tomb.
The final switch to a sedentary lifestyle would have probably occurred when the chieftains struck the deal with the Sload that allowed them to till the salt. At that point the strongholds became farming villages.
Tear itself may have only risen to importance after the deal with the Hist that gave House Dres access to Argonian slaves. By then, strongholds no longer had the role of layover posts, but were instead where House nobles lived.

[Gnomey]

A note on the discussion of Dres Slave Hunters in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24292]this thread[/url].

I'd suggest a compromise between the two extremes of the Dres getting all of their slaves from the Hist and the Dres catching the slaves themselves.

The actual function of the Dres Slave Hunters would be to receive the shipments of slaves. However, they also hunt down escaped slaves deep into the Argon Jungle. The number of escaped slaves would by no means be inconsiderable. The Hist may or may not make that task easier for the Dres, but as the Argonians are hardly the only reason for Black Marsh's deadly reputation that wouldn't detract from the Slave Hunters' impressive skills.

[rot]

How does the relationship between the hist and argonians work there? I imagine they still have free will, so a group can be sent out of the safety of black marsh but that doesn't mean none will resist capture.

More interestingly, are slaves obtained this way puzzled, indifferent,'work in mysterious ways',... about what happened to them?

[Sload]

How does the relationship between the hist and argonians work there?

This I think is the real thing that's at odds here. My thoughts are informed by T0 stuff that never got released & obviously no one else has that background. I'll post more later.

[klep]

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=326454#326454]another thread[/url] I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.

First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.

Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards Great House Dres to keep things organised.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Maybe the reactions towards Dres from some of the Imperial factions and Her Hands require some thinking.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

house dres architecture could have insect forms/shapes.
house dres and telvanni are very-much so intertwined, telvanni embassy in tear would be large. both factions herd large insects.
siltstrider variations are common.
architecture like a dark twist on velothi, an attempt to preserve high velothi culture.
an atmosphere of darkness and death in tear,along with the rest of the faction. it is never sunny in tear.




ideas as before, take none as fact. if i get annoying, dm me and i will comply with whatever is said.

[EJRS]

What if Dres cantons, rather than being similar to Vivec's cantons, started out as strongholds scattered over the Deshaan plains? Those strongholds were used as market places by the local bugherds, and over time attracted settlement and formed the core of many Dres towns and cities.
Etc.

Funny, I've had more or less the exact same thought for a while now. It think it ties things together nicely, gives Dres cities character and would look simply awesome.

Small picture, but visual reference(bottom left corner)?

[Gnomey]

house dres architecture could have insect forms/shapes.
house dres and telvanni are very-much so intertwined, telvanni embassy in tear would be large. both factions herd large insects.
siltstrider variations are common.
architecture like a dark twist on velothi, an attempt to preserve high velothi culture.
an atmosphere of darkness and death in tear,along with the rest of the faction. it is never sunny in tear.

I agree with pretty much all of your points. I'm not sure if Tear would have a Telvanni embassy; Houses usually don't have embassies, except in major cities like Vivec which have no House affiliation. I do, however, agree that there should be a strong Telvanni presence in Tear. I'm also not sure about siltstrider variations, though that would certainly be possible. I would like to see big bugs in the Deshaan, at any rate; as a huge plains region, it will be one of our regions best suited to giant creatures.

Also, your posts are very welcome. It's somewhat hard to discuss some of them; Telvanni and Dres will probably be the last Houses we tackle, (in the case of Telvanni revisit), so a lot of people probably haven't formulated a clear vision of their own of how they think those Houses should be handled.

In reply to EJRS, the link is giving me a 403.

[ihavefivehat]

I like the idea of Dres using cantons. I have the image of the Dres cities being made up of many smaller cantons instead of one giant one. Check out this image of a Midwestern native American city:

[spoiler][img]http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-illinois/CahokiaMounds-old.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

(Although in Dres cities the cantons would be clustered more closely together.)

The more rich/powerful the lord, the higher his canton would be.

I'm thinking that the style of the cantons would be more inline with the ancient fortresses like Falasmaryon than Vivec.

As for the houses on top of the cantons, maybe since the Dres climate is pretty warm, their homes would be built around courtyards. This would be another interesting way to differentiate their cities from those of the other houses.

[EJRS]

...the link is giving me a 403.

Try this.

[Gnomey]

An old idea for Dres cantons which I rather like is to make them hexagonal. I'd think that most Dres settlements would be single-canton clan-steads, but Dres should certainly have several cantons, and perhaps some of the other towns as well. (Aldmar, Silnim...)

[Ironed Maidens]

Ahh, the Dres are the ones I've been dreading trying to give any input about the most. I don't know a lot about what we have for them at this point; I know only of the glowing signs outside of shops, and larvae lantern, and the guy on a bee in Port Telvannis. Other than that, there's only the Dres slave hunter armor concept art from Bethesda, and that's about it. I don't know what the regions they live in look like, or anything like that. However, I do have an idea about how the settlements would probably be set up; I think the idea of layered cantons works well personally, with an open-air top that would serve the purpose of lookouts for watching over slaves, martial training areas, or even ceremonial areas. I think that the most interesting way to approach the idea of Dres is almost a Native American or Inca/Aztec warrior-like nature, with the same fire-fueled sacramental mindset, while being also a bit cold and calculating. They they are always trying to be 3 steps ahead of the competition or even themselves. I also think they would utilize some type of vine-like ladders to be able to get to different levels of the layered cantons and that would be an interesting idea to implement for the players as well. It would give a use to the glowing signs too, each different layer of the cantons can be signified with a different mark to identify what kind of services/people are found there, so the player can easily know what to expect as they start climbing up the cantons. Maybe even a type of canvas system that connects some of the cantons together with some vine-like bridges or roots.

[Ironed Maidens]

A Probable Examination of Ulterior Motives: Telvannis Ordos Legiones

Forward: This text is a scholarly report commissioned by King Urgharth of the Principle Ruling Seat of Sutch district of the Imperial capital of Cyrodiil, may he reign in studious light and may no poison befall his wines.

As a precaution I have already anticipated to address the question of why the court of Cyrodiilic heritage would want to investigate the Telvanni in the province of Morrowind, to the furthest reaches of the east and north, far away from the influences of power that his majesty controls. I have been instructed to not forgo giving any definite information; however I can draw a line of reason in the ash that falls over this land and say that the Telvanni are best known for knowing how to live for a long time without making pacts with the undead. Or so I've come to learn. But there may be an even bigger picture here yet, and aside from the tedious task of trying to write field notes with bugs the size of goats buzzing about my ears, I think I have been able to get a solid cohesion of literary justice.

The Why: The Telvanni are at large in the wild east, and while certainly not mercantile masters at any level of their distorted hierarchy, they have found a way to solidify a regulated path of trade or commerce with a larger representation of antiquated traditional Dunmer beliefs known as the Dres, or House Dres. Though there seems to be little legislation or written record of taxes, tariffs, or actual invoicing, there is the indisputable fact that emissaries of each House meet together and excursions are made by diplomats or representatives of each House to one another, meeting either at secluded back road trade routes or at the larger cities of each.

I have personally tailed three of these convoys; two leaving Port Telvannis to the south, and then followed one from an unidentified settlement of the Dres back north to Port Telvannis. While Port Telvannis seems to be the most ideal place for these types of trades to happen, obviously, there is evidence of the other tower-towns leeching from these secret meetings and getting a siphon of the supplies as well. I have requested to meet with the counsel of Artistry and Textiles back in the Imperial City to give an oral account of what I have seen in hopes that the canvas-masters there can draw an accurate retelling of my sightings, as the Dres are truly clad in some of the most bizarre and unconventional garments and armors I have seen, and I believe this information could serve the Emperor some use if there were ever a parallel drawn from the old invasions of Akaviri slavers and whatever modus operandi these mysterious warriors have.

One can assume that, since the lands the Telvanni inhabit are very barren and the soil is only suitable to grow roughage that beetles eat, these trades are a necessity for the thriving survival of the inhabitants of these Telvanni homesteads. At no point in time did I see a vast amount of food exchanging hands, but knowing how the wizards of the east can manipulate reality it may be possible that they are multiplying the provisions they are getting to accommodate the people of their cities.

At first I had thought that the Telvanni were more insane than local lore and gossip had hinted at, for the fact that they do seclude themselves so far away and in such a fashion as to have their House capital on an island of gnarled roots unreachable by any normal means other than to fly or take a long swim makes little sense if they are wanting to embellish the ages-old entrepreneurial spirit of growth and surplus. But I began to realize that they do so for the sake of simple isolation. No religious icons or idols or temples or even scriptures are to be found in any Telvanni settlements I came across, and the fact that they do not adhere to any strict doctrine or sacraments speaks volumes to the quite peculiar path of civilization they have followed through the duly noted 'Exodus of Velothi', as they seemed to have developed in the complete opposite way of that path. Perhaps it is coincidence, but surveying minds like mine are not so easily convinced.

King Urgharth may have been suspicious of this fact as well, as he has been known to look into sacrilegious tendencies in many cultures and peoples. Maybe it was for that reason he sent me to this place; because he had the same inclination I do. However, I did find evidence of a single old wizard who dwells in a tower that the locals claimed was well over one-thousand years old; even in distinct Dumer bloodlines that is a far stretch of how long one can live. I ventured into his tower to try and look for any signs of prolonging his life by profane means, but I was stopped at the entrance by two Bosmer clad in armor made from bonemeal and resin, and as I spoke with them trying to convince them I was on an errand for the purposed Dres caravans that were known to travel along the roads nearby I saw something; a servant carrying what looked like the heart of some type of creature on a silver tray. It looked large, too large for man or mer, and it was blackish. I believe this may be some type of ingredient or instrument used in the prolonging of the lives of the Telvanni.

The How: If I have ever learned anything in my travels around Tamriel it is that opportunity is always just a gold coin away. I have begun thinking; perhaps the Telvanni do not care about money in the sense of using it for political gain, but perhaps for the driving force behind getting what they want when they want it. Seeing as they are cunning and educated they must know that money is the motivating factor for every other mer and as such they can get people to secure them any type of item they would like. As I am sure the wizard-lords horde money and other valuable trinkets they can easily find any adventurer to do their bidding at any time.

It would not be impossible for them to secure these strange hearts and other magicks by these means, and therefor they would have a nearly endless supply of opportunity to make themselves live longer. All I needed to do was find out the secret they hid so well; what exactly did they do to make themselves live so long? Did they eat the hearts? Did they infuse them with magick and replace their own hearts with them? Did they offer them to some unknown gods in exchange for a spell they can cast on themselves? What it was exactly was the only thing that separated me from the warm breezes and tropical Monethia trees of Cyrodiil once more. But I could not stop thinking about the Dres either. Did they supply the hearts? Are they the ones who also know this life-longing enigma? I had to follow my heart and dig deeper. How hard could it be to accustom myself to a Dres village and pry some information from them?

[EJRS]

My two cents on the Dres, also posted in the architecture thread:

-House Dres is based around a coalition of smaller, largely autonomous Clans.

-The territory of House Dres consists mainly of plains, stretching out across the vast valleys between steep mesas and spire-like peaks. The plains are made fertile thanks to ash blown up into the atmosphere from the volcano of Vvardenfel and carried down by the (red, could be achived by scripting?) rains that fall over Deshaan(currently Red Mountain is the only volcano, but I know there was a suggestion around to expand volcanic activity in TRs Morrowind, which does seem proper and logical).

-Dotting the landscape are numerous great plantations, manned by legions of slaves, making use of the unique circumstances to grow native food-crops such as saltrice and marshmerrow.

-Gazing out across the landscape form atop the peaks are the great spire-complexes of the Dres clans, standing atop fortified platforms built into the rock, great banners proclaiming ancestry and wealth flapping in the wind. From platforms built into the sides of the towers and carved out from the cliffsides, swarms of Dres - dignitaries, overseers and couriers - take flight, mounted on the backs of the signature creature of the House, the skyrender. Occasionally one can see a fleet of sloadships docked at the Dres skyports.

-Honeycombing the peaks beneath the spires are systems of tunnels and pits, housing great rearing pits and slave-manned manufactories within their bowels. At the foot of each peak, huge gates open up into undergound bazaars, from where caravans of silt striders venture forth under the watchful eye of their airborne masters.

-Inhabiting the plains between the peaks are clans of savage tribal Dunmer, living symbiotically with the skyrenders native to the landscape. Each family follows the movements of their symbiote swarm, carving out dwellings in the huge, bulbous hives spun by the renders, caring for the queen of the swarm and rearing the young. These tribes maintain frequent trade relationships with the Dres, who trade crops and commodieties in return for expertly trained riding-beasts. Occasionally, the savage fighters of the tribes find employment with the Dres Clans as mercenaries.

[Gnomey]

Hm. My view is rather different, which makes thing interesting.

1. I agree with this point.
2. I personally don't think we should hem in the Deshaan. There would be mountains/mesas on the Shipal-shin/Deshaan border, and probably some mountains or ridges where the Thirr River Valley, Alt Orethan and Deshaan meet at Lake Andaram, but beyond that I'd prefer to keep the borders fairly open.
I do not think the Deshaan should be fertile due to ash rain; if anything, I'd use that idea for the lands of the Orethan. Deshaan's soil has very high salinity. Being Morrowind, local fauna and flora have adapted to those conditions, leading to a fertile appearance, but typically they would not be able to support life. However, Dres learned to till the salt fields of the Deshaan from the Sload, and that knowledge allowed Deshaan to become Morrowind's breadbasket.
3. I'd say just saltrice. Tons and tons of saltrice.
4. I do not really like the idea of the Dres clanssteads being located on high elevations on the periphery of Deshaan. I'd generally leave that to the Indoril. I think they should be scattered throughout the plains in stronghold-cantons. I think Dres should strictly be people of the plains, not of the mountains. Though that's not to say they wouldn't build on what mountains there are at all.
5. again, I think I'd prefer if things like slave-pits dotted the plains rather than being crammed into peripheral mountains.
6. not against this one, though not completely convinced either. An interesting idea.

[klep]

This conversation is kinda split up now with EJRS's post in two threads. I have commented there on what he said and will commend on Gnomey here.

2. Another volcano isn't exactly creating a mountainous region.

3. Saltrice only would make it fairly boring. In fact, too many fields of produce would make it boring. A few large plantations should be enough to demonstrate Dres' grandeur in saltrice (and other stuf) farming imo. Holding on to the "it's a game, not a simulation" i dont feel it necessary to actually have enough saltrice fields to feed the whole province.

4. Building higher up on natural or artificial"[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_dwelling_hill]terps[/url]" in order to stay clear from the swamps may be a reason to find Dres buildings higher up, but I do indeed agree that they are more a people of the plains than of the mountains.

[EJRS]

2. I personally don't think we should hem in the Deshaan....
I do not think the Deshaan should be fertile due to ash rain; if anything, I'd use that idea for the lands of the Orethan. Deshaan's soil has very high salinity. Being Morrowind, local fauna and flora have adapted to those conditions, leading to a fertile appearance, but typically they would not be able to support life. However, Dres learned to till the salt fields of the Deshaan from the Sload, and that knowledge allowed Deshaan to become Morrowind's breadbasket.

I'm not proposing hemming it in. Notice: valleys, not valley. If it is just one single open plain, I think it becomes rather boring. The peaks/mesas I propose would be dotted across the landscape. It affords elevation, which is both an aesthetically pleasing characteristic, and, in this case, serves as a metaphorical play on Dres domination, as seen in point 4. It also breaks off from the landscapes we have seen so far in TR.

On the point of what makes Deshaan fertile: ash is a natural fertilizer, and is also something that occurs in the soil where the crops included in the original game naturally grows, where salinity is probably a lacking factor. It find it to require far less assumptions, and plays on factors that are already established in the game, to assume that Deshaan is fertilized by ashfall.
I also find the explaination that they learned agricultural methods from the Sload rather far-fetched: the Sload aren't noted as agriculturalists at all, and live in reefs. Why would they have developed that knowledge at all?
Also, is there anything specific saying that Deshaan is a salt-plain?

3. I'd say just saltrice. Tons and tons of saltrice.

Wouldn't this also become rather monotonous? Marshmerrow is also noted as a staple crop of Morrowind, why wouldn't it be grown?

4. I do not really like the idea of the Dres clanssteads being located on high elevations on the periphery of Deshaan.

I never proposed them being located on the periphery. Rather, I proposed them standing like giant watchtowers, towering above the plains, dotting the landscape. I find this to be really becoming for the air of menace and domination the Dres ought to exude. Also, it plays well together with A: Skyports B: Skyrenders. They'd still be people of the plains, just that they construct their strongholds atop the small, sheer peaks that they have available, in the same way that any real life plainspeople with access to such a geographical feature would.


As for the skyreder clans, I propose them both because they would be badassly cool (think nomadic Mongols crossed with an outlaw biker gang, on giant hornets and being dunmer), but also because with only the Dres and the plantations featuring in the area, with a natural absence of Ashlanders, it would become rather boring and featureless. It also gives a bit of depth to the skyrenders.

[EJRS]

A little something for inspiration, although this is on a somewhat grander scale than what I'm after: [url=http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/af/The_Palatine_Cross_Section_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150320094037]Necromunda[/url] as seen in the rules for the game Confrontation.

Combine the above with the narrower peaks of this, and imagine the MWGEK-set (with additions making it more organic and with architectural elements borrowed from the Dunmer stronholds) used for building the platforms and tower-cities, with skyrender-mounted dres moving from peak to peak.

Additional inspiration.

[Ironed Maidens]

http://www.curiousmeerkat.co.uk/short/giant-bees-make-psychedelic-honey/

worth a look?

[Ironed Maidens]

Could this be what one of the parts of the lake looks like?

http://mattmacpherson.com/sow001.jpg

I could imagine the tributaries running off the sides of the mountain range and zig-zagging their way down to drain into the lake.

[klep]

Certainly looks great. Reminds me I shot a couple photos earlier this year worth sharing. Maybe I already have but I'm not sure...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kxg965fz311z ... bOZRa?dl=0

[Ironed Maidens]

Possibly a little more of an imaging on how the peaks of the mountains could look on the border of Shipal-Shin.

http://i.imgur.com/BkM1ovn.jpg

[Not]

Can someone please tell me if we actually have models for these Skyrenders? Better yet, are they even animated if we do have said models? If not, who's going to do it?

And have we decided on towering structures or the strongholds idea?

I like the idea of having a hexagonal canton model, but only if Dres is going to have some hidden meaning with the number 6. I don't know, I just think it'd be some nice added symbolism.

But that all aside, are we going with hexagonal cantons or not? Because right now, I'm trying to figure out (exterior wise) which models we'll need right now.

[Gnomey]

I managed to hunt down the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=295835#295835]Dres Skyrender claim[/url]. I'd missed it on my first pass because it's apparently a map 1 claim.

I assume that by 'towering structures' you're referring to EJRS' idea of giant mountain-top spire-complexes. I don't think we've really reached a final decision on which alternative to go with, Dres still being solidly in the conceptual phase, but at the moment we do seem to be leaning towards the stronghold idea, though the strongholds themselves could and probably should tower over the plains.

The number 6 has plenty of symbolism; the Anticipations+the Tribunal, the six traditional Dunmer Great Houses (as in Sload's [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24320]Wheel of the Tribunal[/url]), and from a glance at the 36 Lessons of Vivec apparently the six walking ways, which in this context isn't terribly relevant. There could certainly be further Dres symbolism, though.

[10Kaziem]

We had an impromptu skype meeting today about what Dres is. The notes from that meeting (which are, at the moment, very disorganized) are here: LINK

[Gnomey]

You'll find the recording at the bottom of the first post [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=330739#330739]here[/url].

[Not]

I would also like to make a reference to [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25146]this thread here[/url] for any more concept art. Right now we're trying to focus more on actual buildings and whatnot, but if you have stuff you think we could work with, feel free to post it there.

[Rats]

There could certainly be further Dres symbolism, though.

Honeycombs are hexagons, so there's a nod to skyrenders (even though skyrenders didn't build honeycomb patterns in their nests). Dres society is a bit like a beehive?

[NathanJ]

Hi, Id like to throw in my 2 cents here. I dont like the idea of the council members being immortal but try to keep the illusion going that they continiously die and are being replaced - I think (espacially that they are compared to VAMPIRES!! hey guys, the age when vampires were the universal tool of making even the most ridiculous story a genius epic is over - vampires are a cliche) the opposite is cooler:

The council is made of seven figures, named after old dunmeric names for simly "the first", "the second" and so on. Everyone knows that there are certain personalities behind them, but to make sure that the decisions they make are not guided by personal wishes but the needs of the commonality each of those imaginary figures has a traditional role it has to play in discussions and special interests the personality who "plays" the role has to represent in council discussions.
These council discussions are a little bit like interactive, open ended theatre plays that shall produce the best result for the whole house and not for specific personalities.

Of course the design of those roles are crafted in harmony with the special character of house dres.

The fact, that those roles of the figures, that are the council members, dont change over the centuries - while the people behind them die and get replaced - causes the same (or a similar) effect as it would have if the council members were actually immortal - and delivers a very plausible reason why house dres seems to be a little stuck in the past.

EDIT: Sorry, I reacted a little emotional when I read this about the vampires. Dont misunderstand me: I am the first who says "cool" when it comes to vampires, but turning the whole leadership of a great house into them means imao giving them the wrong role in the game. Remember when an NPC said the dunmer had exterminated the vampires a long time ago? There are not man vampires anymore in Morrowind and they are extremely hated by the dunmer on grounds of religion and tradition.

[Not]

The whole reason we decided to go with Vampires in the first place is because we wanted to emphasize how much in debt House Dres is; they can't make ends meet, deals they made in ages past are now coming to haunt them etc.

The whole reason we went with Vampires is not because they need to keep the "illusion" up of different councilors coming and going throughout the coming generations, but because of a pact that was made many years ago during the founding of House Dres. They would have to pay back their part of the bargain the moment they died. To prevent this, they made another deal and became vampires to have eternal life, therefore stalling the time they'd have to pay up. But they keep making deals to get out of other deals and it's a vicious downward spiral.

The fact that they have to put on the illusion of different councilors coming and going is an unfortunate after effect that has to happen so no one can know that the councilors haven't changed.

In other words, we didn't do this because we wanted to have the same councilors throughout the whole thing and then came up with vampires for a good reason as to why they seclude themselves., but rather we came up with the whole seclusion thing because of the vampirism.

I think (espacially that they are compared to VAMPIRES!! hey guys, the age when vampires were the universal tool of making even the most ridiculous story a genius epic is over - vampires are a cliche) the opposite is cooler:

I'm having a hard time seeing how an entire Great House run by vampires is cliche as nothing even remotely close to this has ever been done before. Also, we're not doing it because we think it's cool or anything like that, we're doing it because we've created an unique back story that represents this house and vampires happen to be a big part of that.

You make it sound like we're trying to stick to the "new fad" or that we're simply old fashioned, and I fail to see your point in either case.

[NathanJ]

Yes, House Dres needs an unique backstory, I see this point just as you. And I apologise for my formulation "vampires = cliche", taken literally it is not true, vampires CAN be portrayed cliched but dont have to, thats all. As I said I was a little emotional, I hope you dont resent my rudeness.

Turning the leadership of house dres into a collective of powerful vampires just sounded a little... abstruse to me. The reason for that is, lets say they live for thousands of years, look at the experience and magical power they certainly have gained in this period - and house dres itself, they can roll out an age-long plan to strengthen the political and military power of the house. This feels a little bit unfair in relation to the other houses, which are lead by simple mortals with problems and needs of mortal beings.

But I think I get your point with the leaders of house dres being in debt for something, this is a really good idea that I didnt saw (have I missed something?) when I wrote that.

[sirrah]

Regarding the proposed patriarchy/matriarchy of the Dres; is it plausible that in early Dres culture the role of the wise woman evolved into councillor-representatives of each clan (while the Ashkhans became local Hortator-equivalents), and it was the members of this women-only councillor-class that made the deal with the Sload? The result being that positions of authority amongst the Dres appear to be exclusively male, because the female political seats of power are actively held by vampiric mabrigashi.

[Not]

@NathanJ: I can understand why you'd get emotional and honestly, I don't blame you, so please, don't worry about it

When I first heard of the idea to have Dres councilors as vampires, I thought "great, this is completely stupid," but as I got involved with the lore behind it and helped hash out the backstory as to why that happened, I started to be okay with it. It's not a simple "let's make the Dres councilors vampires 'cause that's cool!" kinda bs, don't worry!

Dres can't make ends meet so if you're worried about them having a huge advantage by being thousands of years old and having an advantage over the other houses, I seriously wouldn't worry.

A. The fact that they're vampires is a well kept secret.

B. If the public found out about it, it would cause a panic because it goes against everything they believe in.

C. They're not exactly in a position to go to war with other houses or have any fighting advantage when at this point they're pretty much backed into a corner. They became vampires to stall having to pay up on one of their many incurring debts.

But I think I get your point with the leaders of house dres being in debt for something, this is a really good idea that I didnt saw (have I missed something?) when I wrote that.

You should take a look at the notes that Kaziem recorded for our impromptu Skype meeting here. I'm sorry they're disorganized at the moment, but it'll basically explain the debts they owe and how they're backed into a corner. It also explains about the history and how they got to the point they're currently at.

Regarding the proposed patriarchy/matriarchy of the Dres; is it plausible that in early Dres culture the role of the wise woman evolved into councillor-representatives of each clan (while the Ashkhans became local Hortator-equivalents), and it was the members of this women-only councillor-class that made the deal with the Sload? The result being that positions of authority amongst the Dres appear to be exclusively male, because the female political seats of power are actively held by vampiric mabrigashi.

The Dres councilor seats are held by women, all of which are former wise women of the ancient ashlander tribes. I'm not sure Mabrigash would be the right phrase here or not. To the best of my knowledge, as it is right now anyway, they did this originally to help their people. They're vampires, but they don't need to drain the essence of men like Mabrigash do.

[Kevaar]

I wonder if the creator of Atvir Dres is still kicking around. He had a massive plan for incorporating Dres-based lore in his follower mod for Skyrim, but I don't know how in-depth he went with his ideas. Would be neat if we could make them coincide.

Anyway. My only real thought about the vampire leaders: What does this mean for vampire clans in the area? Will Tamriel Rebuilt add more vampire clans to go with the three in vanilla?

EDIT: Actually, I thought of another. Say the player rises in rank to Councilor of House Dres. Are they required to become a vampire? Or otherwise trick the other Councilors into thinking they've become one--that might make for a fun questline.

EDIT: And one more random thought about House Dres. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their holdings share a border with Black Marsh? I would be disappointed if some Argonian centric lore (Hist included!)didn't somehow make it into their quests. Not necessarily Twin Lamps stuff, since the poor-beastmen-slaves could get overdone fast, but perhaps adoption of some Argonian cultural quirks (not that the Dres would ever admit it..) or even outright conflicts with the Argonians along the border (to which the Empire facepalms and tries to play peacekeeper).

EDIT: I'm done after this one, I promise. Dres buying Argonian slaves for use as vampire cattle could serve as a good inroad to the player catching wind of that whole conspiracy. But I'm not sure it would be the best way; I agree with previous posters that we should be careful about how we play it. Being too heavy-handed and obvious with something that's supposed to have been secret for hundreds of years is a sure way to spoil it all for the player, before you even get into the VAMPIRES AM ARE COOL cliche.

So hmm.

[Dreadnautilus]

By the Apotheosis, the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names) became the Protectors and High Ancestor Spirits of the Dunmer, and bade the Daedra to give proper veneration and obedience. The Three Good Daedra, Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, recognized the Divinity of the Triune Ancestors (Blessed Be Their Holy Names). The Rebel Daedra, Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon, refused to swear fealty to the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names), and their worshippers were cast out.

Am I right in interpreting this excerpt from in-game text "The Anticipations" as implying that worship of the Four Corners was common before the Tribunal arrived?

If so, that raises the possibility for certain members of House Dres to be so traditional that they worship the bad Daedra as well as the good. Molag Bal would be a suitable patron for a House of slavers, after all. I imagine that this would be limited to certain minor cults, or that vampire conspiracy.

Where did the idea that Dres is run by vampires come from anyway? The only things I remember about that from the games was that one book A Game At Dinner written by a House Dres member working as a spy for Clan Aundae (which IIRC implied that his loyalty to Aundae conflicted with Dres, haven't read it in a while so not sure), and I think there was an ex-Dres noblemer in the Volkihar court in Dawnguard. I've been hearing about them being not-quite vampires, but those two sources point more towards mundane blood-sucking vampires than pseudo-ones ala Dagoth Ur's buddies.

[Gnomey]

A few notes on the whole vampire question:

As far as I can tell, the whole 'Dres councilors are vampires' idea is very old, and comes from a specific reading of 'A Game at Dinner' that may not even be correct. It probably wouldn't have gotten as much attention as it has over the years if it weren't for the dearth of other lore on House Dres. It is an idea that has been brought up and shot down countless time in TR's history. The reason for it being shot down was quite straightforward: a secret vampire council seems cliche, and has nothing to do with the world presented in Morrowind.

The vampires in Morrowind are one of the least inspired elements of the game, the idea of a Dres vampire cabal is even worse. It reeks of -- and has no doubt spawned countless examples of -- bad fan-fiction.
Similarly, Dwarves were probably among the least inspired elements of Daggerfall, saved only by the fact that they were not present in-game. It can be easy to forget -- or to never know -- that back then they were in every way generic DnD Dwarves. Which is because they were subsequently very successfully reinvented to the extent that they're almost no longer recognizable as what they are.
There are vampires in Vvardenfell, and currently -- as I think should be the case -- there are vampires on the mainland as well. We can either do nothing with them and pretend that they don't exist, or we can own them and try to make them interesting. I'm confident that we've got good enough writers to pull off the latter, so that's what I think we should do.
Now if there is hardly any vampire representation on the mainland it will be hard to explore them and make them worthwhile inclusions. To me, as such, the on the face of it terrible idea of a secret vampire council becomes very appealing: it provides a big, high-profile opportunity for us to use to make vampires interesting and, assuming we manage to pull that off, to in turn make House Dres and the world of Morrowind more interesting. A big challenge with big rewards.

So much as to why I even brought the idea up in a positive light in the meeting. Now, going off of what was discussed in the meeting, a few points on how Dres vampirism could work:

-only a specific set of individuals ever became vampires, and it was a one-time deal. They were a council of wise women who struck various high cost/high reward bargains probably in the wake of the War of the First Council to ensure the prosperity of their clans and the Dunmer people, as that's what House Dres and wise women do. This was one of those deals.
-it is possible -- we didn't really go into such detail in the Skype meeting -- that some members of the Dres council would be more recent additions, for example if one of the wise women met with an unfortunate accident. They would not be made vampires, and the player will not be turned into a vampire upon reaching that rank either.
-the vampirism isn't a gift or a right of entry into the council. It's a curse that specific set of wise women accepted for the greater good. It's not a strength, it's a weakness. All they wanted and got out of it was immortality, everything else is the cost of that immortality.
-they wanted the immortality for two reasons: first of all, for their deal with the Sload. The condition for the Dres to pay up on their end of the bargain is that those who struck the deal -- the wise women -- die. Before they die, the Dres do not need to pay up. The wise women, worshiping Daedra like everyone else at the time, turned to the Daedra to avoid paying up, and immortality through vampirism was the way out provided by the sadistic Daedra they applied to. (Molag Bal, Vaernima or whoever). That's how things were back then; the Chimer were the playthings of the Daedra, which is what motivated the Tribunal to supplant them, except they never managed to fully do so for the traditionalist Dres.
-the second reason was so that they could continue to guide House Dres in the right direction in future. The clans that made up House Dres were always very volatile, and the wise women knew that when they died there would be an inevitable succession crisis, the direction the House was guided in would be lost, and House Dres and Morrowind as a whole would be back to square one. So an immortal council isn't so much a strength of House Dres as it is covering up for a major weakness of the House, and only covering it up to an extent. There's probably a lot of in-fighting within House Dres and within the individual clans. Under normal circumstances, the Dres would probably be even worse than the Telvanni at getting along with each other, and would have quickly been subjugated as the Chimer were under the Nords.
-note (as I've only done just now while writing this) that those reasons are pretty much the same reasons that spurred the Tribunal to kill their friend, mentor and commander and commit the highest form of blasphemy by attaining godhood for themselves. Godhood, like vampirism, is a corruption some seek for the advantages, but all good Chimer would refuse at any cost. One might argue that the Tribunal and the wise women sought out godhood/vampirism out of greed, but the more likely explanation was that they made a sacrifice for their people, for better or worse.
-because the acts they committed would be so harshly judged by their people, the Tribunal/wise women made sure to keep the events secret. The Tribunal had the advantage of being able to shape reality so that they were always gods, but the liability that Alandro Sul and Dagoth Ur had witnessed their acts and weren't going to forget them anytime soon. (Or rather the Ashlanders wouldn't forget them in Alandro Sul's stead; the Tribunal dealt with him pretty quickly, but failed to eliminate his memories). The liability for the wise women is that the Sload naturally know about the deal, and are naturally interested in the wise women paying up, and as such they probably try to rock the boat every now and then. The wise women can't shape reality, but they can hire a discreet guild of assassins to shut up anyone who starts sniffing around, and, until recently, probably managed to scrape by by doing just that. As with the Tribunal, however, their big lie has gradually been weathered away, and now threatens to crumble entirely.
-as they were wise women, it wasn't hard for them to shutter themselves off and only communicate with trusted liaisons. As they are Dunmer, Dres and adept at magic, they probably have a good handle of the local forms of brainwashing for emergencies, or, again, the Morag Tong for worse emergencies. They also have an endless number of slaves to use as cattle, and thanks to the local culture nobody would raise any eyebrows at their calling for slaves to be brought to them and, after a while, the corpses of those slaves being brought out again after having suffered a horrible death. It's sort of a Dres cultural pastime. So avoiding sunlight, drinking blood and not being seen aren't really problems for them; save for the drinking blood bit any adjustments they needed to make to their pre-vampire lifestyles would have probably been minimal.
-whenever they do have audiences with clan members, they probably do so with a screen between them so that the clan members can only see the silhouette. Again, this wouldn't really raise any eyebrows; the Indoril probably like doing that sort of things as well, and they're certainly not vampires.
-the leader of House Dres is nominally the Ashkhan, or Hortator. The Dres probably use their own fancy title, but you get the idea. Either a real figurehead or a non-entity. His purpose is threefold: to draw attention away from the wise women, to lend House Dres a sense of unity, and to provide the player with a nice, effectively empty seat at the top of the faction to assume at the end of the faction questline. The player would basically turn the figurehead position into a position with real power while either publicly revealing the wise women for who they are, killing them off or continuing their lie in the process.