House Dres Brainstorming

[Ironed Maidens]

While I agree on your points, I do want to raise a counter-argument. In my own vision of this 'vampirism' as I stated in the Google docs: the council of Dres may not be blood vampires at all, but rather maybe one of their 'deals' have allowed them to live for a long LONG time. Not immortality, mind you, because that simply clashes too harshly with the conduct of the Nerevarine; but at any rate, they are looking to live a long time to become "wiser". More sane than the Telvanni, but also at the risk of becoming lost in their own transient thought. Now I may be going in a more obtuse route than you are Gnomey, but I had a rather intriguing idea that may or may not be of use to TR. The Skyrenders being used not only for their actual physical beings, but also being used for their honey. The honey being a type of peyote-like substance that the Dres figured out how to use to either:

1.) Become more mentally strong, which has helped their slavers in the past with catching the lizard-folk, perhaps before the deal made with the Hist.

2.) Helped the council guide the House in the paths of the 'old-ways'. Now this is the scenario I'm most interested in because I think it could lead into a deeper insight on the House as a whole.

In the past, the Dres used the honey to get guidance for the House from either the Daedra (good or bad), or the ancestors, but now the 'line is only static' so they're making less and less
informed decisions that are "contaminated" with aforementioned transient thoughts; or a singular agenda. This is causing a big disruption within the council itself, surmounting on top of the other issues plaguing the House on the surface. Now the 'line being static' could be due to a few different reasons:

1.) The recent surge of power from the Sixth House could be causing a SHARMAT-CRACK in the Aether, which is possibly even tainting the very spectral connection the Dres were tapping in on for eons before. This could also play into tonal architecture, as tinkering with Numidium has started a type of interlaced-web-fracture. This is, admittedly, a pretty weak possibility, but one nonetheless.

2.) The Daedra have decided to turn their backs on the Dres since they are not paying their dues to the Sload or the Hist. The Hist could have a direct link to the Earth Bones and Aedrea and Deadra for all we know, so this could be an alternate means of payback. This could be further expanded upon, but I think it is the best/most interesting possibility.

3.) There could be an interference stemming from the impending power change brought on by Oblivion (the game). This could, again, be a far stretch, but it could perhaps supplement the former reason, which wouldn't be too big of a deal.

Now, how I envision the council working is it meets in a certain Knights of the Round Table type of setting; where they don’t necessarily scheme about scary/evil things, but more they share their combined wisdom (being "vampires" they’re old and have seen the motions of Resdayn and all) to make a unified smart/informed/advantageous decision. Although I do like the visual idea of them meeting underground in some grandiose crypt-like setting, where the only light sources are from candles/bug lanterns/burning triloths or some such. When someone in inducted into the council (which HAS happened, but very rarely ever happens) they take up type of ‘oath’ or ‘sigil’ of fate, basically saying they know what they are getting into for the next near-eternity, and they are brought into an underground place from which there is no (easy) entrance or exit, and from there they make their decisions. Maybe any officially reached decisions are simply put into a letter, stamped with a piece of dark wax and a signet, and then the letter is picked up by some high-up courier in the House who lets the other higher-ups know of the decision.

As far as for on the surface (both literally and figuratively) there is a ‘leader’ of the House who is really just a super rich tactician who’s really just a puppet put in place by the council to act as a figurehead; but the real decisions are made by the council; he just reads the aforementioned letter and acts as it says (in simplified terms); and I like it because it has a kind of Illuminati-ish vibe to it. It also has a lot of potential for good storytelling and it can deepen the way we look at the Dunmeri culture and it also paints a good portrait of what state we want Morrowind to be in by the time the Nerevarine departs for Akavir.

As a final thought on the matter, the only issue we need to iron out is HOW the Dres council has this ultra-sustained life. Part of me wants to say that the deal they made with the Sload also included the info they needed on this, but the Sload are Necromancers and Dunmer hate Necromancy so I'm not sure dabbling in dark arts like that is the way they would go; it suppresses the ideals of the Chimer/Veloth too much. Perhaps it could be by the same means serjo Fyr has been able to live so long...or maybe the Telvanni taught them a thing or two in turn for something? They've made deals with them before in the past for the secrets to using Riverstriders, so it's a possibility. Or perhaps it is a more metaphysical way they are able to live so long; a divine artifact or some such. I think making a deal with a Daedra is a bad route to go because:

1.) I don't want the Dres to be making deals left and right; it's more of a Hlaalu thing to do that and an over-portrayal of the Dres doing that kind of stuff just rubs me the wrong way.

2.) The Daedra would only make it so through vampirism, which is what I'm wanting to avoid.

Rats had an interesting idea on Salt Vampires, much like Dagoth Ur's Ash Vampires, but this would require a lot of backbone that I honestly don't have the lore knowledge (anymore at least) to pull off. All I can think is perhaps the Sixth House and House Dres were a little closer before the War of the First Council than the other Houses were aware of? At any rate, that's my thoughts on the matter and I thiiiink it is a bit better of a route to go, since exploring more metaphysical themes would be more prosperous for us at this point.

[ihavefivehat]

Here's a random idea that I'll throw out there. Wouldn't it be interesting if Dres was attempting to turn the Argon jungle into an extension of the Deshaan. Perhaps they would dig massive canals from the Plains which spill salt water into the jungle, killing the native plants and creating areas where salt-rice can be cultivated. It would fit with my vision of Dres as a high fantasy version of a hyper-industrialized society. (I don't know if this jives with your vision, though.)

[Ironed Maidens]

In light of the recent brainstorming done for the Dres district I've written up an in-game book that would help characterize the Dres in the fashion I've envisioned for the council. Feedback appreciated.

Forlorn Bal-Hlarren

In the infancy of my arrival to Morrowind I was ambivalent of what the province had lurking in store for me; as was tradition for any Cyrodiil growing up on the border, I was bombarded with tales and bit of mischievous lore as a child from people in my town. Thicket-cutters who worked their way west, towards the Imperial City to cut out paths with their long, board machetes where dirt and soil would eventually be packed into to form various detour roads that veined and slithered across the land incase the main roads flooded, would stop through consistently and tell tales of seeing the roaring smoke from Red Mountain rising above the ridge of the mountains. They would speak of the humming of the large beetles that the barbaric natives herded, troves of them scuttling along in a trance-like harmony. They would weave a narrative of the dark skin of the Dunmer, of their strange masks they wore to filter out the harsh air that was polluted by the ash wastes that ravaged the isle of Vvardenfell and the Armun Ashalnds that were situated on the mainland.

My young eyes and ears would be out of ambit with reality as these tales were a wanderlust for my young imagination. For years I stayed in my town, mere miles from the peaks of the Velothi Mountains. Where just over the other side there was some extrinsic landscape that even the Nine couldn't comprehend in the fullest extent. Locals would exchange a novella's-worth of stories about their friend-of-a-friend who had just returned back from Morrowind, and how they had seen the ends of Nirn, how the ground was made of living organisms that would swallow up cities whole and spit them back out into the ocean. How the Dunmer were a race of vampire-kin who ate the souls of Moth Priests and lived in giant rock hives with windows and door frames carved out with the teeth of young children like myself, how they worshiped a trio of Daedra who wore the skin of the past Emperors after they had tunneled their way into their crypts and broke into their gold-lined casks and ripped their flesh clean off their corpses and then retreated back to their homeland.

I now know that there was perhaps a bit of truth to a few things they said, though of course it was mostly blown out of proportion all the way to Atmora and back. I finally decided to one day scratch the itch of adventure that had been growing from within my bones for years once I left adolescence like a terminal case of Red Rage and I sold what farming tools I had, visited my parents grave one last time, left an offering of an amulet stamped with the face of Dibella, and headed off east. Now, there was a series of circumstances that transpired between then and where I am now; the least of them involving a pack of wild Nix Hounds, a naked Nord, and three empty bottles of Kavatch Wine found inside a ravine in the wilds of the northern wastes; but perhaps the most estranged prevarication that just happens to be apodeictic is the incident I can only refer to as 'Stumbling Upon the Outre Chagrin of My Physical Self at Bal-Hlarren', or more simply put, 'Forlon Bal-Hlarren'.

Bal-Hlarren itself is quite unremitting. Some sort of local legend about a priest who circumvented the tricks of a lesser Dremora who was trying to ruin a pious bloodline or some such at the top of the mountain. But what was situated there now is what I still have trouble trying to comprehend. It was late at night, Masser and Secunda hanging overhead in their eternal game of tag with the sun; I was on my way to unmake the life of a necromancer hiding out in the dense mires of the Lan Orethan. It was a contract I picked up from an Orc I had met shortly after I arrived. Khortag gro-Mamduba. A tower of slime-tinted flesh/ He must have drank thereabouts a gallon of Mazte in the daytime and fought about half the Legion's worth of guards at night. I'm still not entirely sure how I managed to befriend him, considering I don't think he ever remembered anything other than how to purse his lips up to swig from the bottle and how to swing an axe; but through some marital tides of fate I was on his good side and he was just as eager as I was to find his grail of coin in the dangerous and oft xenophobic backwoods of this territorial division of our consecrated empire. I had met him in a berated tavern off the road somewhere near Old Ebonheart after I had to step over him to get in the door; he was sleeping off the rough night right outside in the dirt. I paid my rent for the night, clamored into the sheets that felt as stale as week old bread atop a mattress as hard as a Guar's skull and became cognizant to the sound of what I could only guess was an all out war that broke out downstairs.

Khortag was stringent that he get a bottle served to him before the sun even arose fully and the barkeep denied him. I still believe he would have killed that poor mer had I not intervened and offered to pay the rent for his nights stay outside. The barkeep chortled under his breath and looked the two of us over slowly, cautiously, and then slid the Orc a jug of some cheap-but-powerful alcohol and told us both to vacate. I walked with him for a bit, he thanked me for being, and I quote, “...the only pale skin with a sense of brevity and honor,â€Â￾ while gobbling down his pungent liquor, and we got to know each other a bit. Years went by, we both went out to still find our fortunes, and we would rendezvous at random points in time, in and out of temporal relation to one another. One day he actively sought me out and told me he trusted only I to assist him in a contract he got from the Ghazmitan Tong, some start up that scavenged for people willing to lose a limb for a little coin. I guess he got into some torrential debts in Almalexia due to his addictions and had to turn to the tong for the coin to keep a poisoned dart out of his neck. It was a suicide mission, but I was just as hard-pressed for luck as he was. We both headed into a Daedric ruin by a lake and somehow managed to keep our heads attached long enough to clear out the cultists that writhed within, and he split the payout with me. My eyes lit up and I ate my first good meal in a long while; this was the reason I ventured out here with no reckoning as to why – for the thrill of the hunt.

Khortag, in time, got to be a lead for a division of the tong down south and I started taking orders from him. He cut back on the drink considerably, but when he gave me this job I had to ask if he had fallen off the carriage again or not. To go unaccompanied into the unknown and hope to not become chattel to this blasphemous entity. He must have been delusional. Of course I was eager to tempt fate. However, a harsh storm kicked up with rain seemingly coming upward from the ground, and I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, because I noticed something askew. I'd never stepped foot so far south that I would land in Dres territory. I would first rather take a dagger to the palms and a Hoom headbutt to the gut than to step too close to the border of Dres district. I heard hosts of tales about the Dres, and unlike the stories I had once heard in my youth way back in Cyrodiil, these tales were true. Relentless, ceaseless, unforgiving, fatalistic, savage, inexorable, and ingenious Dunmer. Just to use a few adjectives. They would slit a foreigner’s throat in broad daylight without a second though and the guards would laugh as they dragged the bodies out to the wilds outside town to be feasted on by vermin. But yes, something was askew most certainly. The ground became addled, rough, and it smelled acidic. Then the salt flats appeared under my feet. It was dark and still stormy out, but I pushed on, half hoping and half praying I was just a little off track. I had to find some way back to familiarity. The silhouette of Bal-Hlarren started to reach out towards me on the horizon; almost as if it were grasping at me, leading me by tugging on my legs to start climbing it's sloping appendages.

I trudged upwards, the storm finally breaking, and the gastric air broke apart and I breathed heavily through my nose as the fresh air flooded in. Thankful for my salvation I took in the night sky. I suppose I just figured if I could make it to the top of the ridge I could look out to try and get my bearings straight. The odd flora wrapped around my feet, it was unlike any other I'd seen before. It seemed just as dangerous as the Dres themselves. When I got closer to the pinnacle I felt an odd gust of warm wind bellow out from one side of the mountain and wrap around to my face. Again I got curious and something took over my mind. I kept getting dragged back to the hazy days of yore, when I would stay up late into the night in Cyrodiil and dream of the possibilities of fate and the unknown. I thought about how I wanted to be a traversing knight, slaying monsters and rival kings. I thought about how I wanted to wear armor made from the fallen beasts I'd slain. I thought about heading down from the mountain. But I alternatively started moving towards the other side of it, tip-toeing along the diaphanous trails that spiraled like a vine growing up a fence post. I felt the air getting warmer and warmer as I rounded every corner, and I finally came to a broader dirt trail that had led up to a small hole with steam shooting out of it near the top of the mountain. It was like a forage was venting out of the hole, the air nearly scalding my eyes and skin.

I threw a clothed veil over my head and got closer, inspecting my surroundings through stinted eyes. I drew nearer, almost close enough to extend my arm out and touch the side of the mountain near the hole, and suddenly there was a noise. Down the path I could hear faint footsteps in the dead of night crunching against the loose salt-encrusted pebbles that polluted the dirt. In my time of adventuring I've learned a few important rules of the wild; amongst the top three of them is 'Don't Rush Blindly Into A Fight'. Heeding my own wisdom I frantically looked around for something, anything I could conceal myself behind. There wasn't much I could see, just a few knee high plants and smaller rocks. The footfall drew closer to me and I knew who or whatever it was had a destination of that hole, since it was the only remarkable feature up this high. Then, I saw a larger boulder I could possibly jump up to at my left. It was ample enough for me to crouch down and get behind to hide behind and time was of the essence. I belted off and made my way half way behind the rock when two Dunmer wound around the trail and right into my line of sight. I slid myself behind the boulder as gently as I could, careful to not make a sound, and I peered around the edge of the boulder where I had a perfect orientation of the hole and waited. A faint blueish-green glow engulfed the path and the Dunmer walked up to it silently. They were both adorned in what I could only describe as some pale bonemold armor with helmets that seemed sleek and streamlined to fit in with the curves of the mountain. Some type of stealthy attire. One of them held the most inane glass lantern, and inside of it instead of a flame there was some type of larvae. Like a Kwama but less...developed? More primal looking.

As it writhed and squirmed around it emitted the enchanting color that shone pallidly even in the dark of night. Without exchanging words one of them walked up to the hole in the wall and dropped something in; ostensibly unscathed by the heat it produced. It seemed like hours went by with me crouching down, my knees swelling and weeping. I took my time to sum up the odds of me walking away alive if I tried to ambush the two elves and I always came out on the loosing end. They simply seemed just too formal and elegant and strong yet so extensively out of place way out in the middle of wherever I was. They had swords at their sides and a posture that oozed confidence. They were statuesque and hardly moved as the twilight grew colder and shorter. I could maybe take one of them, but being that I was outnumbered I would be swiftly met with a blade in the back; it was at that moment I knew the stories of the Dres were true. I wasn't looking to die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I figured that whatever they were doing here would sooner or later come to a conclusion and I would be on my way. Yet I also was inquisitive once again. I did also feel like I needed to know what was going on, why they would travel so far out here in the darkest parts of the night. In hindsight I wish I would've just sulked off into the shadows when I had the opportunity.

After an eternity or two there was finally some movement from the two as the one who approached the hole snapped his head down at the concave pit and stuck his hand in again. After a few moments of submersion, my jaw unhinged and almost dropped to the ground. He pulled something out! Was there some person or deity inside the mountain? Was that tell tale true? I wish to this day I had gotten a better look at what he produced, but I had no time to react to what happened next. A sound that I can only expound as the cracking of the sky and the weeping of Talos himself blasted through the heavens, seemingly amplified by the stars themselves. The two Dres, they still were unwavering! My entire body writhed around, and the already pallid pigment of my skin drained more so as a bore witness to a moving miasma of winged creatures that blanketed the moons out of sight. The countless reinforcements swarmed along and I could no longer hold fast. I thought of the gave site in my home town, of where my mother and father were eternally laid to rest. I thought of that amulet of Dibella I left for them and I say with all dignity revered; I felt tears streaming down my eyes as I hopped up and ran down the mountain path faster than I have ever moved in my life even since then.

I took only a moment to look back as I saw the two Dunmer act briefly perplexed before giving chase. I thought for certain I would never make it off that mountainside. And as I ran I had some sort of divine epiphany. A thought populated my mind with a tremendous force. Brighter than any larvae lantern. Hotter than any steam vent on any mountain. Taller than White Gold Tower itself. I had realized that I no longer wanted to do any adventuring in this curious, unusual land. I wanted to somehow make it out alive and sell my armor and my weapons back to the pawn broker who belonged to the tong, who I knew would give me a good deal if I explained to him how I had to leave and get back to Cyrodiil, and I wanted to never look back. I sprang and bounded my way down as bewildered as possible, the sound still engulfing my ears and becoming louder. I could feel the vibrations pulsating through my armor and right into my soul. The Dres were behind me, gaining fast. Watering eyes and burning lungs, I just pushed on until I miraculously made it down the mountain and I picked up an adrenaline-fueled pace across the salt flats, and I found salvation behind a small patch of dense trees. I slid down into a gnarled pocket beneath some roots and fell asleep out of both desperation and exhaustion.

I fluttered my eyes open to luminosity, not sure weather I was dead and this was my rewarded afterlife or not. My face was streaked with dirt and salt, my feet and legs were wound up tight, my head was beating like a war drum; but I was alive. Breathing, living, and completely aghast. It took me some time to find my way back to Khortag, but when I arrived I said no words to him. I simply shook his hand, bereft him of any explanation, thrust three bottles of fine Cyrodillic Brandy onto his desk, and walked out. I still smile perceptibly when I think of the look on his face. After all my trinkets and wares and armor and weapons were sold off I had enough money to make it back over the border, rent out a room at the tavern in my hometown for a few weeks, and also buy some new farming equipment; all while still having numerous good years left head of me.

Morrowind was a very recondite place, and I have only this one regret about going there. I met many people, saw many places, and learned endless things. But Bal-Hlarren was too forlorn for even the mystical spirit such as mine. I also now embrace my simple, quiet life here in the nestled border town. I sometimes look to the east and get a booming in my heart, but I know I could never quest off into the dusk again. Plus, the corn harvest this year looks like it will be bountiful.

[klep]

Mother of god, that was an amazing read!
It took me a while to get through, but it was well worth it. Aside from the occasional typo or choice of words I have nothing to comment. I didn't take notes while reading so I'm going to have to read it again at some point in order to nitpick the things I spotted.

I love the back story and buildup, the climax which got my face almost pulled into my screen and the solid ending. Great work!
PS: When it's finetuned, I'd love to see this posted on tumblr and/or other social media.

[Sparts]

I've heard it said that what the Sload exactly want from the Dres doesn't necessarily need to be expanded on, kind of like the disappearance of the Dwemer.

While I'm fine with this in a vaccuum, I feel like it limits TR's ability to explore the Sload actually confronting the Dres over the bargain. I've had a few ideas on what could the Sload actually want from the Dres, and here's what we know of both sides:

Sload - Necromancers, great wizards, very cautious, patient and calculating. Their patience plays in nicely with how the Dres have "cheated" them out of their end of the bargain for thousands of years.

Dres - A very traditional and stratified society, even more than that of Dunmer in general. Quite conservative in Daedra and ancestor(notice how that can tie in with Sload necromancy!) worship.
The greatest slavers in all of Resdayn, although I'm not really familiar with how slavery as an institution melds with their conception of themselves and Morrowind - are they slavers because they believe Dunmer and especially Dres have a right to lord over the lesser races or is it simply economic convenience, or a combination of both? A writeup on this would be great.

I believe the Dres approached the Sload first because before Deshaan was salted they were a minor and weak collection of minor houses with nothing of real interest to the Sload, compared to the proto-Telvanni who would probably have proved more opportune and lucrative partners for whatever the Sload desired. With the juggernaut that was Indoril absorbing minor houses left and right the Dres were probably desperate to avoid absorption into Indoril and the Temple and preserve their way of Daedra and ancestor worship as best as they could.

So, as for what the Dres could have offered Sload my first pick would be some sort of trade involving the ancestors of the Dres and their remains and tombs, with a secondary focus on the most primitive Daedra worship they and the Ashlanders practice. Other things that could be explored alongside: Ashlander wise woman and mabrigash dream magic, the deal Sotha Sil made with the Daedra Princes at the end of the 1st Era and the inner turmoil that the Temple's demand for internment of Dres dead in Necrom caused, which could perhaps serve as the catalyst for the Sload finally making their move.

[Melchior Dahrk]

That was an excellent read, Ironed Maidens. I think the most effective overall theme was how you portrayed the Dres lands as essentially being a Morrowind within Morrowind; i.e. it's like Morrowind^2.

[Ironed Maidens]

Thanks friends! Glad you guys liked it. I'll admit, I did kind of rush the ending a bit because I wanted to get a draft out for feedback on. But I'll be sure to tighten it up a bit; but I want to make sure the idea I have for the Dres council is something we can agree upon first.

[10Kaziem]

That's a great book! That was a really good read, very interesting, absorbing, and it felt very authentic. There's a few typos in it, but it's excellent nonetheless.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean about the council, but I think this is an excellent portrayal of the Dres.

[klep]

I personally think the ending is spot on. After such a climax, too much story at the end would just become a drag. I was still excited about the encounter with the Dres while getting to the happy ending, which is basically announced at the end of the second to last paragraph. Then while reading the last paragraph, my heart settled with the short summary and the slight bit of looking back to the east, and became totally satisfied with the bright foresight of a bountiful harvest. Imo, don't change too much.

[Ironed Maidens]

EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean about the council, but I think this is an excellent portrayal of the Dres.

Bal-Hlarren is the mountain where I am imagining the Dres council sits deep down below. You can refer to my edits on the Google Doc or my post at the top of this page to see a little more what I mean by what my idea of the Dres council would be like.

In this story, our main character is basically seeing a meeting go down where the Dres council sends up a letter to the two Dunmer (one of which would be a very high-up who is blessed with the task of being basically the only Dres above the ground to communicate with the council; the other being some sort of very powerful bodyguard) so I gives a little in-game characterization of the House and how it operates, while also giving a bit of foreshadowing on what the player may expect to find out about the Dres council if s/he joins that house.

[Dreadnautilus]

How is the secret House Dres council going to interact with becoming the Dres Hortator? I can see a situation where you have to track them down and exterminate them, because as long as they exert their influence there is no chance of an outlander becoming Hortator. In Vanilla Morrowind, you have to kill Gothren and Venim to become Hortator of Telvanni and Redoran, so I don't think this is too out of the mark.

[10Kaziem]

I think this story works regardless of where we situate the council. The fact that the Dres are doing a mysterious thing, unknown to the outlander, is totally fine.

[Ironed Maidens]

I cleaned up the typos and did a little fixing up of the story in general. Let me know how it is!

Forlorn Bal-Hlarren

In the infancy of my arrival to Morrowind I was ambivalent of what the province had lurking in store for me; as was tradition for any Cyrodiil growing up on the border, I was bombarded with tales and bits of mischievous lore as a child from people in my town. Thicket-cutters who worked their way west, towards the Imperial City to cut out paths with their long, broad machetes where dirt and soil would eventually be packed into to form various detour roads that veined and slithered across the land in case the main roads flooded, would stop through consistently and tell tales of seeing the roaring smoke from Red Mountain rising above the ridge of the mountains. They would speak of the humming of the large beetles that the barbaric natives herded, troves of them scuttling along in a trance-like harmony. They would weave a narrative of the dark skin of the Dunmer, of their strange masks they wore to filter out the harsh air that was polluted by the ash wastes that ravaged the isle of Vvardenfell and the Armun Ashalnds that were situated on the mainland. 

My young eyes and ears would be out of ambit with reality as these tales were a wanderlust for my young imagination. For years I stayed in my town, mere miles from the peaks of the Velothi Mountains. Where just over the other side there was some extrinsic landscape that even the Nine couldn't comprehend in the fullest extent. Locals would exchange a novella's-worth of stories about their friend-of-a-friend who had just returned back from Morrowind, and how they had seen the ends of Nirn; how the ground was made of living organisms that would swallow up cities whole and spit them back out into the ocean. How the Dunmer were a race of vampire-kin who ate the souls of Moth Priests and lived in giant rock hives with windows and door frames carved out with the teeth of young children like myself, how they worshiped a trio of Daedra who wore the skin of the past Emperors after they had tunneled their way into their crypts and broke into their gold-lined casks and ripped their flesh clean off their corpses and then retreated back to their homeland. 

I now know that there was perhaps a bit of truth to a few things they said, though of course it was mostly blown out of proportion all the way to Atmora and back. I finally decided to one day scratch the itch of adventure that had been growing from within my bones for years once I left adolescence like a terminal case of Red Rage and I sold what farming tools I had, visited my parents grave one last time, left an offering of an amulet stamped with the face of Dibella, and headed off east. Now, there was a series of circumstances that transpired between then and where I am now; the least of them involving a pack of wild Nix Hounds, a naked Nord, and three empty bottles of Kavatch Wine found inside a ravine in the wilds of the northern wastes; but perhaps the most estranged prevarication that just happens to be apodeictic is the incident I can only refer to as 'Stumbling Upon the Outre Chagrin of My Physical Self at Bal-Hlarren', or more simply put, 'Forlon Bal-Hlarren'. 

Bal-Hlarren itself is quite unremitting. Some sort of local legend about a priest who circumvented the tricks of a lesser Dremora who was trying to ruin a pious bloodline or some such at the top of the mountain. But what was situated there now is what I still have trouble trying to comprehend. It was late at night, Masser and Secunda hanging overhead in their eternal game of tag with the sun; I was on my way to unmake the life of a necromancer hiding out in the dense mires of the Lan Orethan. It was a contract I picked up from an Orc I had met shortly after I first arrived in Morrowind. Khortag gro-Mamduba. A tower of slime-tinted flesh. He must have drank thereabouts a gallon of Mazte in the daytime and fought about half the Legion's worth of guards at night. I'm still not entirely sure how I managed to befriend him, considering I don't think he ever remembered anything other than how to purse his lips up to swig from the bottle and how to swing an axe; but through some marital tides of fate I was on his good side and he was just as eager as I was to find his grail of coin in the dangerous and oft xenophobic backwoods of this territorial division of our consecrated empire. I had met him in a berated tavern off the road somewhere near Old Ebonheart after I had to step over him to get in the door; he was sleeping off the rough night right outside in the dirt. I paid my rent for the night, clamored into the sheets that felt as stale as week old bread atop a mattress as hard as a Guar's skull and hours later became cognizant to the sound of what I could only guess was an all out war that broke out downstairs. 

Khortag was stringent that he get a bottle served to him before the sun even arose fully and the barkeep denied him. I mused to myself that he was probably still drunk; and nevertheless I was soon inducted into the insight that he never wasn't. I still believe he would have killed that poor mer had I not intervened and offered to pay the rent for his nights stay outside and for the bottle as well. The barkeep chortled under his breath and looked the two of us over slowly, cautiously, and then slid the Orc a jug of some cheap-but-powerful alcohol and told us both to vacate. I walked with him for a bit, he thanked me for being, and I quote, “...the only pale skin with a sense of brevity and honor,â€Â￾ while gobbling down his pungent liquor, and we got to know each other a bit. A nice fellow, once you got past his miles-long outer layers that were more brash than beautiful. Years went by, we both went out to still find our fortunes, and we would rendezvous at random points in time, in and out of temporal relation to one another. One day he actively sought me out and told me he trusted only I to assist him in a contract he got from the Ghazmitan Tong, some start up that scavenged for people willing to lose a limb for a little coin. I guess he got into some torrential debts in Almalexia due to his addictions and had to turn to the tong for the coin to keep a poisoned dart out of his neck. It was a suicide mission, but I was just as hard-pressed for luck as he was. We both headed into a Daedric ruin by a lake and somehow managed to keep our heads attached long enough to clear out the cultists that writhed within, and he split the payout with me. My eyes lit up and I ate my first good meal in a long while. It was right before my first bite into the succulent Nix Roast that it hit me; this was the reason I ventured out here with no reckoning as to why – for the thrill of the hunt. 

Khortag, in time, got to be a lead for a division of the tong down south and I started taking orders from him. He cut back on the drink considerably, but when he gave me this job I had to ask if he had fallen off the carriage again or not. To go unaccompanied into the unknown and hope to not become chattel to this blasphemous entity. He must have been delusional. Of course, I was eager to tempt fate. However, on this particular delegation, the camouflaged hands that move the stars had something else planned for me. No sooner than I headed out of town and into a part of the region I wasn't at all familiar with, a harsh storm kicked up with rain seemingly coming upward from the ground, and I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, because I noticed something askew. I'd never deliberately step foot so far south that I would land in Dres territory. I would first rather take a dagger to the palms and a Hoom headbutt to the gut than to step too close to the border of Dres district. I heard hosts of tales about the Dres, and unlike the stories I had once heard in my youth way back in Cyrodiil, these tales were true. Relentless, ceaseless, unforgiving, fatalistic, savage, inexorable, and ingenious Dunmer. Just to use a few adjectives. They would slit a foreigner’s throat in panoramic daylight without a second thought and the guards would laugh as they dragged the body out to the wilds outside of town to be feasted on by vermin. But yes, something was askew most certainly. The ground became addled, rough, and it smelled acidic. Then the salt flats appeared under my feet. It was dark and still stormy out, but I pushed on, half hoping and half praying I was just a little off track. That the next illuminating clamor of lightning would reveal a landmark or tree or even a pile of rocks I was acquainted with. I had to find some way back to familiarity. The silhouette of Bal-Hlarren started to reach out towards me on the horizon; almost as if it were grasping at me, leading me by tugging on my legs to start climbing it's sloping appendages. 

I trudged upwards, the storm finally breaking; the gastric air broke apart and I breathed heavily through my nose as the fresh air flooded in. Thankful for my salvation, I took in the night sky. I suppose I just figured if I could make it to the top of the ridge I could look out to try and get my bearings straight. The odd flora wrapped around my feet, it was unlike any other I'd seen before. It seemed just as dangerous as the Dres themselves, almost menacing; daring me to try and pluck a leaf off of it so it could stick me with some lethal toxin that I would succumb to in mere moments. I kept evidence of where my feet were at all times, lest I was abject enough to step on one of them. When I got closer to the pinnacle I felt an odd gust of warm wind bellow out from one side of the mountain and wrap around to my face. Again I got curious and something took over my mind. I kept getting dragged back to the hazy days of yore, when I would stay up late into the night in Cyrodiil and dream of the possibilities of fate and the unknown. I thought about how I wanted to be a traversing knight, slaying monsters and rival kings. I thought about how I wanted to wear armor made from the fallen beasts I'd slain. I thought about heading down from the mountain. But I alternatively started moving towards the other side of it, tip-toeing along the diaphanous trails that spiraled to the peak like a vine growing up a fence post. I felt the air getting warmer and warmer as I rounded every corner, and I finally came to a wider dirt trail that had led up to a small hole with steam shooting out of it near the top of the mountain. It was like a forage was venting out of the hole, the air nearly scalding my eyes and skin. 

I threw a clothed veil over my head and got closer, inspecting my surroundings through stinted eyes. I drew nearer, almost close enough to extend my arm out and touch the side of the mountain near the hole, and suddenly there was a noise. Down the path I could hear faint footsteps in the dead of night crunching against the loose salt-encrusted pebbles that polluted the dirt. In my time of adventuring I've learned a few important rules of the wild; amongst the top three of them is 'Don't Rush Blindly Into A Fight'. Heeding my own wisdom I frantically looked around for something, anything I could conceal myself behind. There wasn't much I could see, just a few knee-high plants and smaller rocks. The footfall drew closer to me and I knew whoever or whatever it was had a destination of that hole, since it was the only remarkable feature up this high. Then, I saw a larger boulder I could possibly jump up to at my left. It was ample enough for me to crouch down and get behind to hide behind and time was of the essence. I belted off and made my way half way behind the rock before two Dunmer wound around the trail and right into my line of sight. I slid myself behind the boulder as gently as I could, careful to not make a sound, and I peered around the edge of the boulder where I had a perfect orientation of the hole and waited. A faint blueish-green glow engulfed the path and the Dunmer walked up to it silently. They were both adorned in what I could only describe as some pale bonemold armor with helmets that seemed sleek and streamlined to fit in with the curves of the mountain. Some type of stealthy attire. One of them held the most inane glass lantern, and inside of it, instead of a flame, was some type of larvae. Like a Kwama but less...developed? More primal looking. 

As it writhed and squirmed around it emitted the enchanting color that shone pallidly, even in the dark of night, yet bewitchingly. Without exchanging any words, one of them walked up to the hole in the wall and dropped something in; ostensibly unscathed by the heat it produced. It seemed like hours went by with me crouching down, my knees swelling and weeping. I took my time to sum up the odds of me walking away alive if I tried to ambush the two elves and I always came out on the loosing end. They just simply seemed too formal and elegant and strong, yet so extensively out of place way out in the middle of wherever I was. They had swords at their sides and a posture that oozed confidence. They were statuesque and hardly moved as the twilight grew colder and shorter. I could maybe take one of them, but being that I was outnumbered I would be swiftly met with a blade in the back. After mulling the scenario for a time, I then sincerely knew that the stories of the Dres were true. I wasn't looking to die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I figured that whatever they were doing here would sooner or later come to a conclusion and I would be on my way. Yet I also was inquisitive once again. I also felt like I needed to know what was going on; why they would travel so far out here in the darkest parts of the night. In hindsight I wish I would've just sulked off into the shadows when I had the opportunity. 

After an eternity or two there was finally some movement from the duo as the one who approached the hole snapped his head down at the concave pit and stuck his hand in again. After a few moments of submersion, my jaw unhinged and almost dropped to the ground. He pulled something out! Was there some person or deity inside the mountain? Was that tell tale about that priest and the Dremora true? I wish to this day I had gotten a better look at what he produced, but I had no time to react to what happened next. A sound that I can only expound as the cracking of the sky and the weeping of Talos himself blasted through the heavens, seemingly amplified by the winds and stars themselves. The two Dres, they still were unwavering! My entire body writhed around, and the already pallid pigment of my skin drained exceedingly more so as I bore witness to a moving miasma of winged creatures that blanketed the moons out of sight. These countless reinforcements swarmed along in a catastrophic fashion and I could no longer hold fast. I thought of the gave site in my home town, of where my mother and father were eternally laid to rest. I thought of that amulet of Dibella I left for them, and; I say with all dignity revered; I felt tears streaming down my eyes as I hopped up and ran down the mountain path faster than I have ever moved in my life even since then. 

I took only a moment to look back as I saw the two Dunmer act briefly perplexed before giving chase. I thought for certain I would never make it off that mountainside. And as I ran I had some sort of divine epiphany. A thought populated my mind with a tremendous force. Brighter than any larvae lantern. Hotter than any steam vent on any mountain. Taller than White Gold Tower itself. I had realized that I no longer wanted to do any adventuring in this curious, unusual land. I wanted to somehow make it out alive and sell my armor and my weapons back to the pawn broker who belonged to the tong, who I knew would give me a good deal if I explained to him how I had to leave and get back to Cyrodiil, and I wanted to never look back. I sprang and bounded my way down as bewildered as possible, the sound of the moribund skies still engulfing my ears and becoming louder. I could feel the vibrations pulsating through my armor and right into my soul. The Dres were behind me, gaining fast. Watering eyes and burning lungs, I just pushed on until I miraculously made it down the mountain and I picked up an adrenaline-fueled pace across the salt flats. I found salvation behind a small patch of dense trees. I slid down into a gnarled pocket beneath some roots, trying to burrow deep into Nirn's skin to evade the entire scene. I withdrew and covered my ears, trying to barricade both the sounds above me and the footsteps of the Dunmer I was sure were right next to me. I saw the faint glow of their lantern pass just above my knotted sanctuary, my throat began to burn, my heart was pulsing so hard that my ribs began shifting around, and I fell insensible out of both desperation and exhaustion. 

I fluttered my eyes open to luminosity, not sure weather I was dead and this was my rewarded afterlife or not. My face was streaked with dirt and salt, my feet and legs were wound up tight, my head was beating like a war drum; but I was alive. Breathing, living, and completely aghast. It took me some time to find my way back to Khortag, but when I arrived I said no words to him. I simply shook his hand, bereft him of any explanation, thrust three bottles of fine Cyrodillic Brandy onto his desk, and walked out. I still smile perceptibly when I think of the look on his face, how befuddled he must have been. After all my trinkets and wares and armor and weapons were sold off I had enough money to make it back over the border, rent out a room at the tavern in my hometown for a few weeks, and also buy some new farming equipment; all while still having numerous good years left head of me. 

Morrowind was a very recondite place, and this story is the only regret I have about going there. I met many people, saw many places, and learned endless things. But Bal-Hlarren was too forlorn for even the mystical spirit such as mine. I also now embrace my simple, quiet life here in my nestled border town. I sometimes look to the east and get a booming again in my heart, but I know I could never quest off into the dusk again. Plus, the corn harvest this year looks like it will be bountiful.

[Not]

I really do like this story, I just finished reading this refined version. I like how you left a lot of things open to interpretation; what are the Dres doing over there? We don't know.

Honestly, I'd like to get some other reviews to make sure it's really good to go and then I think we could make this into an actual in game book.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

here's the thing tho, dunmer hate vampires. with a passion.

[Not]

here's the thing tho, dunmer hate vampires. with a passion.

And that is why it is the most well kept secret in all of Deshaan.

[Ironed Maidens]

Erghhhhh I really don't like the idea of the council being blood vampires. Like; REALLY don't like it.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

personally i think it's a bit cliche, and rather anti-lore. why not have the dres take the life force from slaves in a ritualistic act learnt from the daedra and the sload..

[Not]

Erghhhhh I really don't like the idea of the council being blood vampires. Like; REALLY don't like it.

I can empathize with that. Honestly, I didn't like the idea of it either and had my heart set on shooting it down at the skype meeting where we were supposed to go over it. But after hearing the lore and reasoning behind it, I'm okay with it and support it. I think it's a brilliant move. It's not like we're making them vampires for the sake of "omg letz make dres vampyrs so cool!" kinda bs. There's solid reasoning behind it that really meshes well with the shadowy nature of the council itself.

Honestly, you really should take a look at the public document of Kaziem's and Swiftoak's notes on House Dres.

[Ironed Maidens]

I already have taken a look at them, and I commented on them as well with an alternative idea that is worth expanding on and using in place of the blood vampire idea. I posted a long explanation in this very topic actually lol.

[10Kaziem]

I personally don't think they should be "blood" vampires. Just that if others found out about the deal they made with the Daedra, they would assume it's vampires and get out the torches and the pitchforks.

Swiftoak suggested that the immortality bargain be downplayed as far as specifics go and that we focus on the other bargains for our faction quest.

EDIT: also, your notes have been seen; swiftoak and I are going through and slowly condensing everyone's suggestions into a more compact document, but it's taking time. (Real life, and all that, plus the forum transfer.)

[ObligatoryUsername]

Simply because the Dunmer at large revile necromancers doesn't mean that the Dres council couldn't be using necromancy (or it's cousin, ancestor worship) to sustain themselves.

There are always exceptions to the rule, this would obviously be a closely kept secret and we have a rumored example of a prominent & largely tolerated necromancer in Dratha. Dratha is rumored to be using necromancy for the precise purpose of maintaining her youth and extending her lifespan.

Alternatively, if you wanted to find a "loophole" to the necromancy problem, why not have the council be made up of ancestor spirits inhabiting the bodies of their descendants (either permanently OR temporarily during council meetings) or at least speaking through them when called upon? This would be a very interesting mechanic and a unique twist on the idea that still creates an effectively immortal council without the need for vampirism or "necromancy" per se.

I personally think the temporary possession method or the "speaking through a vessel" route would make the most sense without removing the distinct personality of the vessel or making it seem completely twisted and indistinguishable from necromancy. It would also provide for some unique and interesting dialogue and characters. The Dres council would simply be calling upon their ancestors to provide them with wisdom. If these thousand-year old spirits are ferociously racist, hopelessly backward-thinking and possibly insane, I suppose that just comes with the territory, doesn't it?

EDIT: This would also be a bit of a compromise between the "Dres are Vampires" crowd and the "That's stupid, no they're not" crowd. It's a bit less of a "shocking revelation" but it also runs less risk of coming across as cheesy or cliched and it doesn't rely on one debatable reading of A Game at Dinner, which is possibly fictional and/or significantly altered propaganda.

Also, as a side note - Garan Marethi from Skyrim's Dawnguard is a Volkihar vampire who was once associated with House Dres and hints at some bad blood between them. If the vampire reading of AGAD is correct, could he be the author?

[Dreadnautilus]

Doesn't dialogue Oblivion mention that House Dres supported Helseth banning slavery? That seems out of character for them. What if it has something to do with their deal they made with the Hist? When they realized they fucked up, they pretty much went "Aw fuck, take back all your lizards just please don't kill us". As seen by the invasion of Morrowind, it failed to work.

[Not]

I'm not entirely sure if we're going to go with them being blood vampires or not, that actually was something I was against as well. But having them achieve immortality via vampirism through a deal with the Daedra seems ideal. It suits the vision we have of the house quite well and coincidentally fits in with the lore of the house from later TES games.

Considering that the vampires throughout Tamriel vary greatly among tribes and provinces, I don't see why we couldn't have them as another variation wherein they don't sustain themselves through blood. This would better keep with the vision that they're not your typical Vvardenfell vampires, which is something I think we should emphasize.

I already have taken a look at them, and I commented on them as well with an alternative idea that is worth expanding on and using in place of the blood vampire idea. I posted a long explanation in this very topic actually lol.

I didn't really know how to paraphrase this, so I'll just leave it here for now

Vampirism is an established, varied concept, that later TES titles and modern media keeps changing. The version is Tamriel is appropriately varied among vampiric tribes. Whereas the honey idea comes from out of nowhere and connects the Dres to the Skyrenders in a too-symbiotic relationship. It seems like one of those "wouldn't it be nice" ideas, that exist solely to have the Dres as like vampires without being vampires.

Your idea is pretty original and way out there. I'm just not really sure it'd make that much sense in game. It just seems weird that Telvanni can use wizardry to extend their life span, but the Dres would use something as simple as honey. However, I do think you're right in the sense that they shouldn't be blood vampires. We're thinking some variation of it.

Simply because the Dunmer at large revile necromancers doesn't mean that the Dres council couldn't be using necromancy (or it's cousin, ancestor worship) to sustain themselves.

There are always exceptions to the rule, this would obviously be a closely kept secret and we have a rumored example of a prominent & largely tolerated necromancer in Dratha. Dratha is rumored to be using necromancy for the precise purpose of maintaining her youth and extending her lifespan.

Alternatively, if you wanted to find a "loophole" to the necromancy problem, why not have the council be made up of ancestor spirits inhabiting the bodies of their descendants (either permanently OR temporarily during council meetings) or at least speaking through them when called upon? This would be a very interesting mechanic and a unique twist on the idea that still creates an effectively immortal council without the need for vampirism or "necromancy" per se.

These aren't bad ideas, but I just don't see that fitting in with the secretive society of the Dres councilors. Dunmer are really against necromancy I won't deny that but at the same time they support ancestor worship. If Dres councilors were able to call upon their ancestors for wisdom or have them spoken through, I can't really see that as some secret that would destroy the Dres. If anything that would probably make them revered because of the close relationship they have with their ancestors. Even if you were to argue that they wouldn't be revered, I can't see the common people causing a revolt at the knowledge of this. It's not something that'd need to be a closely guarded secret and thus would make the secretive nature of the Dres council completely pointless.

As for the necromancy idea, that's more of a Telvanni thing that requires great knowledge of certain magic. I don't really see the Dres possessing that kind of power. They're not wizards.

Anyway, with that being said, I don't think they'll be blood vampires anyway, but the whole purpose of them becoming what they are was to help guide their people. Their intentions were good, their methods....not so much. Also, I can't stress this enough: Their immortality is a curse to them, not a blessing. This isn't a scenario where they're all vampire lords and horribly powerful or anything dumb like that, it was a deal made out of desperation and now has them backed into a corner. This isn't your cliche vampire Twilight story.

[ObligatoryUsername]

snip

As to the "Dres are Necromancers" angle, they may not be godlike wizards like the Telvanni, true. However, if the Dres can strike a Faustian bargain with Molag Bal to become vampires, why couldn't they strike a deal with another daedric prince (Hermaeus Mora, Vaermina, etc.) to learn the necessary rituals to sustain themselves? The Dres have an awful lot of slaves available to harvest for black souls, after all...

I suppose if you wanted to stick with the "Dres has a deep dark secret" theme but didn't like the first option, you could alter the idea so that either the ancestors were possessing their descendants involuntarily or that the descendants were somehow abusing the ancestors, keeping them bound to Mundus in atypical fashion or the like.

For a quick spit balled example of the first scenario, maybe the leading Dres families have to provide one of their own sons or daughters to become a vessel for the spirit of the ancestor when the old vessel dies or becomes otherwise unsuitable? That is clearly not a normal Dunmer practice and would likely be seen as horrifying by the commoners if discovered. It's essentially a form of human (well, Elven) sacrifice, but with a twist that separates it from the ordinary "evil sorcerer" playbook.

In the second scenario, it might look something akin to the way Daedra souls are imprisoned in ebony to make Daedric armaments. The souls of the ancestors could be bound to artifacts and compelled to speak when the artifact is used (what the artifact IS exactly, would dictate how it is being used, I suppose). Perhaps this binding was even voluntary at first, but the ancestor spirits did not realize just how horrific the implications of this eternal binding would be? The Dres can't afford to lose this valuable source of wisdom, especially at such a crucial juncture in their history. However as a result they are tormenting and imprisoning their ancestors in the process.

Both of these could fit under the umbrella of a deal made out of desperation to better guide their people, which ended up being a terrible thing in retrospect, while steering clear of the blood vampire theme and the traditional necromancy angle which could be seen as "too Telvanni".

I also don't mind the idea of them being "some kinda vampirey-thing" but not "blood vampires", but I wonder how that would be explained without using either necromancy or help from Daedra or possibly the Hist (the powers and motives of which are really not understood, meaning it/they/whatever can basically do and be anything without contradicting lore). Ash Vampires are really the only other example we have of "vampires, but not really". Obviously the Heart of Lorkhan was the source of their immmortality, so that route is completely closed as far as I can tell.

[Not]

As to the "Dres are Necromancers" angle, they may not be godlike wizards like the Telvanni, true. However, if the Dres can strike a Faustian bargain with Molag Bal to become vampires, why couldn't they strike a deal with another daedric prince (Hermaeus Mora, Vaermina, etc.) to learn the necessary rituals to sustain themselves?

That's the whole reason they're not blood vampires. Their deal was not with Bal at all. And before we start getting into the discussion that Bal created vampires and whatnot, if you look at the quest to cure yourself in vanilla, that one NPC will say something along the lines of "My master Molag Bal is fascinated by you nightwalkers, though they are not of his creation."

The point is that they weren't changed into vampires through normal means and therefore aren't necessarily privy to the same rules either. No they can't go in sunlight and whatnot, but they wouldn't need to sustain themselves through blood either.

[Ironed Maidens]

I guess I'm in the minority of this discussion, but I don't the direction the whole idea of the Dres council is going in at this point is very good; irregardless of whatever was drafted up or thought up in the past, this is the present and TR has changed a lot, and I don't support these ideas very much; at least not without any brainstorming on alternatives.

[Not]

I guess I'm in the minority of this discussion, but I don't the direction the whole idea of the Dres council is going in at this point is very good; irregardless of whatever was drafted up or thought up in the past, this is the present and TR has changed a lot, and I don't support these ideas very much; at least not without any brainstorming on alternatives.

But we did brainstorm! Quite a bit really D:

I get what you're saying and honestly, I felt the same way. When I heard that we were STILL going with vampire for Dres councilors, I was vehemently against it. That is until I had that skype meeting and we fleshed out the lore and the story behind it and made it into something unique and amazing.

All I can say is, if you want to brainstorm or really get in detail about this, I strongly recommend you join the IRC channel; I can't tell you how much stuff gets discussed there on an almost daily basis. I really think it'd be great if you joined us because I like a lot of your ideas and would really like your input on issues. That and I think it'd be great if you could join the conversations that take place regarding Dres lore. It's up to you though and I'll understand if you don't want to.

[Ironed Maidens]

IDK how to get into IRC. Do I need to download a client for it?

[Not]

IDK how to get into IRC. Do I need to download a client for it?

Well, I don't think you do, but it's so much easier if you do download one. Also, I don't know how to connect to it anymore without a client as the link to our channel is no longer on our website anymore.

That being said, I would download hexchat if I were you and then when it asks you to select network, you'd choose chatspike and then just type /join #tamriel

and you're there!

[klep]

Hit the link in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25004]this post[/url] to join the IRC channel on a web-based client. No need to install anything.

[ObligatoryUsername]

Their deal was not with Bal at all.

Even if their deal was with another daedric prince or with the Hist or WHOEVER, (I don't think I entirely even "get" this idea despite reading over this thread) my question still remains; why can't they make a deal to learn the necessary rituals to sustain themselves through necromantic means if they can make a deal to become whatever sort of "vampires"/not vampires you're referring to?

The vampires but not really vampires approach seems like a rather convoluted way to get to the same place a simpler solution would also take you. Dres council has a deep dark secret, lengthens their life spans through unsavory means. That's the crux of the idea, it seems. Plenty of easier ways to get there that make a lot more sense and don't require hundreds of hours worth of new lore crafted to explain this.

As a separate point, I truly believe that if this thing is ever going to get finished, chasing one's own tail in this manner by inventing ever more complicated concepts like this must be avoided when possible. I have been reading these forums for the last few years before ever deciding to register. It seems like scope-creep and over-thinking things has really become a problem. I see a lot of talk about touching aspects of Vvardenfell down the road, when the mod hasn't even finished 10% of what it has set out to achieve with regards to quest lines and NPCs on the Mainland. I addressed some perceived over-thinking with regards to Telvanni Mouths in the Telvanni Brainstorming thread yesterday, which I won't get into here.

What the mod is now, after a dozen years, is essentially a walking tour through a third or so of mainland Vvardenfell, with a few largely unfinished faction quest lines and a few dozen miscellaneous one-off quests. The quality of what is there is great. I'm not talking down on what you've achieved, because it is really remarkable that people are even still working on this thing after so long (albeit with huge amounts of staff changes).

However if this mod will actually ever be completed at a certain point things need to transition from continual alterations upon the same ideas which have been tossed around for a decade to final decisions being made and work being done. I would be happy to do what I can to write dialogue for any number of quests, if I was able to believe that my work would not be tossed out after a few years of sitting idle on google drive or a Lead Dev's hard drive before the entire faction concept is significantly altered once more.

I really love the idea of the mod and what is there so far. I have been following it for over a decade now with interest, and I really want to see this thing actually get done in time for anyone to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I think if there was more noticeable progress on the quest and NPC front, it may be easier for the team to recruit people like me who are willing and able to help but unsure if it will even matter at this point. It would also go a long way towards generating renewed interest in the project from people who have already written it off as a boondoggle.

Those are my two (dozen) cents, anyhow.

[Not]

why can't they make a deal to learn the necessary rituals to sustain themselves through necromantic means if they can make a deal to become whatever sort of "vampires"/not vampires you're referring to?

I suppose in theory they could very well do that but I fail to see how that'd be interesting at all. You have the Telvanni which can pretty much already do that and it'd just be another rip off of that house.

Even if their deal was with another daedric prince or with the Hist or WHOEVER, (I don't think I entirely even "get" this idea despite reading over this thread)

A lot of it is supposed to be open to interpretation and not really fully explained. This goes along the same lines of "what deal did the Dres make with the Sload in the first place?" and "What did the Sload really want in return?"

We simply don't know. There'll be references and subtle hints I'm sure here and there but ultimately that's left open to interpretation.

The vampires but not really vampires approach seems like a rather convoluted way to get to the same place a simpler solution would also take you. Dres council has a deep dark secret, lengthens their life spans through unsavory means. That's the crux of the idea, it seems. Plenty of easier ways to get there that make a lot more sense and don't require hundreds of hours worth of new lore crafted to explain this.

It wasn't 100 hours worth of lore, more like one hour to formulate all of this in a single Skype meeting and a few documents to further hash out the details. Whether we decided to go with this or some other means such as necromancy (which I myself find to be boring and cliche,) I'm sure it would have taken roughly the same amount of time to figure out.

Yes, I suppose there are other ways to get there, but while you seem to think vampires are cliche, I don't see how a council of would-be necromancers where the only difference from the Telvanni is that they didn't know how to do it themselves and therefore had to strike a deal with Daedra is really any different. It's another deal with Daedra, but instead of vampires which we believe would be unique and interesting, it's just simple necromancy that they couldn't perform themselves. That to me sounds pretty cliche with the only difference from Dres and Telvanni being the former's incompetence in sorcery. We believed that having vampires would really separate Dres from the other great houses and created our own lore based on what little we know of the Dres culture and making sure it fits well. People hear vampires and think of Twilight or of the ugly and horrible aspect that vanilla Morrowind has introduced and this is far from the case here. We're not doing anything along those lines but rather forging along a new angle that we believe would keep the player entertained.

As a separate point, I truly believe that if this thing is ever going to get finished, chasing one's own tail in this manner by inventing ever more complicated concepts like this must be avoided when possible.

There is very little known about the Dres lore-wise to begin with and they have a territory that's around the same size as Vvardenfell itself. We have to create new lore, not just with Dres but in general, so creating new concepts is unavoidable. We simply take what little we know and we roll with it and try to create an interesting story for the player while seeing everything through with our vision. Whether we went with vampires or went with your idea, there'd still be a lot of hashing out to do. Although perhaps because it's something you could get behind, it wouldn't be seen as chasing our tails. I don't know.

if this mod will actually ever be completed at a certain point things need to transition from continual alterations upon the same ideas which have been tossed around for a decade to final decisions being made and work being done.

I came back to the project because I more or less felt the same way, I was sick of discussions that went nowhere, no one wanted to put their foot down or make a final decision and virtually nothing got done. That's why I'm trying to help change that. You're not the only one that feels that way and I can assure you that change is coming.

You say that we need to start transitioning from continual alterations upon the same ideas to making final decisions and work getting done.

Have you read the forums lately? If you've been reading up on these forums for years like you say you have, then you'd know that actually making the final preparations to start exteriorizing the Dres lands is a HUGE step in the right direction. That's something that no one has wanted to touch for years. Everyone kept thinking it'd never happen because it required so much custom models. Now we're talking about it so we can finalize the ideas and start creating the exterior claims for it. All that's left is the modeling and the exterior model set which is 95% complete already, so we're almost ready to go. Not only is this actually getting things done like you posted above, but it would create a tremendous morale boost because so many exterior claims would come up, there'd be work to do and above all else? Seeing a map like the one on uesp that is fully complete throughout the entire province (detail wise.)

I would be happy to do what I can to write dialogue for any number of quests, if I was able to believe that my work would not be tossed out after a few years of sitting idle on google drive or a Lead Dev's hard drive before the entire faction concept is significantly altered once more.

Again, things are changing. We've stopped implementing faction quests specifically for that very reason. I myself had made an entire faction quest branch as well as spent an all nighter reviewing others that are now being scrapped entirely. We're learning from our mistakes. We can't make faction quests when only roughly 1/3 the province is done and ideas keep changing. What we can do though is move forward and learn from them. That's why I'm pushing to get the Dres lands done, so we can start considering the bigger picture once we have all the exterior work done.

I think if there was more noticeable progress on the quest and NPC front, it may be easier for the team to recruit people like me who are willing and able to help but unsure if it will even matter at this point. It would also go a long way towards generating renewed interest in the project from people who have already written it off as a boondoggle.

I can't agree with you more and trust me when I say that I know how frustrated you are because I'm much the same way. Right now we're finally switching over forums and reworking a claims browser, so there's a lot going on behind the scenes. However, I do want to start putting up claims of all kinds to really put people back to work. This is a very backlogged time for TR. I want to see renewed interest as well and that's why I'm hoping that seeing a completed version of exteriors for the province as a whole on top of the outstanding work OpenMW will help drive people back to Morrowind.

To clarify this whole thing, I get where your frustrations are coming from and that's why I'm trying to do what I can to show that things are improving. I'm working super hard so that when we do 2016 in review at the end of this year, we'll have a LOT to report instead of just staff changes.

Furthermore, I'm sorry that you're not keen on the vampire idea as a whole, I can't change your mind and I've heard you out and my mind isn't changing either. All I can do is assure you that we're not doing this half-assed or without thinking at all. You believe vampires are cliche, I think the necromancy through Daedra is also cliche. We're trying to meet you guys in the middle by not making them blood vampires to further demonstrate that they're nothing like the horrible kind you see in vanilla.

Thank you for your input. I really do appreciate your words in regards to the state of things as well as what you believe will help bring people back. I'll try and get quest claims up as soon as possible (NOT faction ones unfortunately for obvious reasons,) because that definitely is the way to go. It'd also allow us to FINALLY merge OE with the main file.

[ObligatoryUsername]

I just want to clarify that I never said I thought vampires were cliche. That was another poster. I did mention that avoiding the vampire angle would eliminate the possible perception of cliche, but I was not intending to say that I myself perceived it that way.

I'm open to the idea of the Dres Council being vampires, I wanted to play devil's advocate and throw some alternate (and to me, less contrived) ideas onto the table. I don't disagree with new concepts, I know obviously this is the nature of the beast with a project of this scope, especially considering the dearth of lore regarding some of the factions which were not players on Vvardenfell like the Dres or even the Indoril to an extent. I just hope to see liberal application of Occam's trusty razor. Contrivance for contrivance's sake is never pretty. This is a similar concept to the sub-principle of Sload's first Principle of Lore "alien in excess is mundane".

I will say that the entire Dres council being comprised of necromancers would not really be like the Telvanni, who are NOT by and large necromancers. They do have some necromancers in their ranks, certainly more than the "average", but to say that having the Dres Council be necromancers is "ripping off" Telvanni is really no different than saying they can't be vampires because Telvanni also tolerates the occasional vampire within their ranks.

I'm glad you read through the latter half of my post and didn't take it as an insult or a denigration of the great work you guys have accomplished. I was afraid that post might have been taken the wrong way, so I tried really hard to clarify that this was NOT my intent.

When I wrote about transitioning from constantly altering the game plan to working on implementing the plan, as well as my fears about potential work being wasted, those two points were tied together. To me, the idea that you can't finish quests until you finish the entire landmass is a bit backwards and might be hampering efforts to garner interest in the project.

I understand this is approach probably is taken primarily to allow full creative freedom for every quest line that is made in the future. Eventually, however, one of the quest lines will need to be finished and the subsequent quest lines will need to conform to that reality. Why not make that eventuality a reality sooner rather than later?

Cutoff quest lines and a "crosscountry hiking sim" feel which much of the mod still suffers from are huge turnoffs for a lot of people who might be more interested in the mod if at least ONE faction could be solidified and finished. Whether that faction is Indoril, Telvanni, or even a minor faction who could be contained in the currently developed cities, it would really help I think.

If minor(!) changes need to be made to the quest dialogue or even the quest line plot later for the sake of continuity with new developments, that isn't the end of the world. All that would be necessary is to keep in mind the broad strokes of the quest line(s) that is/are developed and not write a separate quest line which completely blows things up.

I just think the minor creative limitations inherent in having one piece of the political puzzle realized would be outweighed by the boost in publicity and morale that would result from finally "finishing" a significant quest line. Additionally, writing around existing quest lines is something which needs to happen anyway at some point, because there is no feasible way to develop every single faction's quest lines simultaneously on a regular schedule with a project like this.

Having a few pieces of the puzzle already in place might even help speed along writing of the other faction quest lines. e.g. If we already know the Telvanni side of a conflict with the Indoril, it would be much easier to figure out a suitable "counter-quest", if you will, for Indoril players. Think of Telvanni vs Hlaalu at Odirniran or Telvanni vs Redoran at Shishi as examples of vanilla quests that follow this "two sides of the coin" system. I'm not suggesting you follow as simplistic a formula as "kill this guy, or kill the other guy", but when you know the objectives of one side in a conflict you can generally ascertain what the other side might want as well.

[Not]

As you said in one of your previous posts, we're constantly changing and editing things. Unfortunately, that's still happening today and it's part of what makes TR so special.

The faction quest lines in general seem like a good idea and it would appeal to the audience, but at the same time it's really not feasible. There's a lot that goes into it and as we've learned from our past mistakes; we can't be working our ideas off of preexisting quest lines. The problem is that while it seems easy, it really isn't. If we wanted to complete a faction quest line, we'd have to edit vanilla Morrowind as well to incorporate the expansion of said faction. On the other hand, I suppose we could do House Indoril, but the capital is Almalexia which is no where near close to being done and on hiatus for now. The alternative is Dres, but even then you can see that's not an option this early on.

So then what? How do you complete an entire quest line when you only have 1/3 of the province done? Almalexia is going to heavily involve Indoril as well as the temple, mages and (I think Thieves, but not sure on that.) How do we complete them when Alma is no where near done? Not to mention trying to keep wiht the lore of other provinces and making sure nothing conflicts with the other mods either. Admittedly that last one shouldn't be too much of an issue except for maybe the Imperial Cult and Legion, but my point is, there's a million things that go on.

A lot of faction quests for numerous guilds and whatnot we wanted to have take place in Baan Malur and/or Tear none of which are done. We want the factions to take you throughout the mainland as well as Vvardenfell and really unify the province as a whole, but that's just not possible with only 1/3 of it done. Then there's entire faction quest lines that we've had to scrap entirely and I don't really see why we'd want to make the same mistake all over again.

House Telvanni seems most feasible, but even then, a huge part of the problem with TR not moving forward is that we're constantly all over the place and never focusing on one thing in particular before moving on. This causes massive disorganization and one could go so far as to argue that that's what got us to where we are right now. Again, we're rectifying it, but it's caused a massive hold up.

Suppose we were to decide to complete House Telvanni right now. We'd have to edit vanilla content quite heavily for that on top of being restricted ton 1/3 the land mass. This means we can't have any quests that would take you further south or any point west towards Vvardenfell. Nevermind the fact that there's the issue of wanting to redo Telvanni lands altogether after the project is in a relatively completed state.

To rectify this, I'm trying to make misc quests that take you further out to other locations and settlements to help unify the province, but making faction quests with 2/3 the land mass not there is just not a very good decision at all.

This is why I've been pushing so heavily to get the Dres models out the door so we can finally start exteriorizing that and be that much closer to completion. At least at that point we should have all the settlements written down and can consider writing up quest lines for each faction (in theory anyway.)

So yes, I really do want to work on faction quests, trust me they're super fun to make as well as play and I've wanted to do House Telvanni and the Thieves Guild for years now but again, unfortunately at this point it's just not feasible.

[NathanJ]

On that idea of dres cuncillors being vampires again:


I dont think that every player of TR does fully understand the lore behind the vamirism of dres councillors. I believe they will be disbelieving and find it really strange, because of the most obvious things we discussed already. MAYBE they will deal with the subject more and understand the deeper meaning of it, but not everyone.

Secondly there should be more than this possibility to portray the dres being deeply in debt and having a secret that would crush them if it would become known. Dont misunderstand me, this idea is really good, it would make house Dres really unique, and thats what it needs. But simply turning the councillors into vampires is an ungraceful move. It grants the "wow"-effect in exchange for a little authenticity. I like for example that mummy idea, that the head of the council is only a corpse/mummy. Why not involve some customs that CAN be interpreted as necromancy to communicate with that corpse? Some really nasty stuff. Or the idea with the masks (they can be combined with horror style designs, together with some occult customs). That all together with old stories, well hidden from the eyes of the public, that tell really disturbing things house dres has done many centuries ago to, lets say to gain magical power, powerful artifacts (maybe also linked with the mummy), or even a longer life-lets say 100-200 years more. You see, we dont NEED vampires to portray house dres like we want to, and it will be far more player-friendly.


But even if we decide to do that: although I think this may become one of TRs biggest mistakes, this mod cannto be 100% perfect, we have to accept that.

My suggestion: why not do a voting for one of the following:

1. The blood-vampires idea
2. The non-blood-vampires idea (councillors are "immortal" but not real vampires)
3. Flesh out something new, without vampires

After that, go with the winning idea.

[klep]

My suggestion: why not do a voting for one of the following:

1. The blood-vampires idea
2. The non-blood-vampires idea (councillors are "immortal" but not real vampires)
3. Flesh out something new, without vampires

If it comes to voting, my vote is for either 2 or 3. No vampire council please.

[EJRS]

If it comes to voting, my vote is for either 2 or 3. No vampire council please.

Definitely seconded.

I'm not really a fan of the idea that house Dres as a whole are in a debt, either. The two-facedness/secret conspiracy card has been played to death in TR already (both the planned Indoril and Hlaalu questlines hinge rather bluntly upon it), and also, I don't really see Dres as centralized enough to have a collective debt. Perhaps one of the clans within the house harbour a secret, but I don't see it working for the house as a whole.

[Jet133]

I like the idea of the upper echelons of House Dres being deep in debt with payment coming due, but not the house as a whole. This gives a reason for it to be a secret and for them to try to keep it a secret until its dealt with. The last thing I feel they would want is the rest of the house knowing and losing their respect as leaders, or worse, other aspiring House Dres retainers trying then oust them or usurp their powers or place.

As for the being vampires thing, I agree on no blood vampires. Otherwise I'm not too partial. For my own personal preference however, I've always thought less is more. Why even say what gives them their abilities? Maybe its vampirism? Maybe its necromancy? Maybe an even more advanced version of sorcery than the Telvanni can perform? Doesn't matter, just leave the player to theorize. Maybe other NPCs will theorize along with you during the House Dres quest line. All that matters is that whatever amazing power they have can't save them from the debt collector. Just my two cents. Like I said, I don't care either way as long as it isn't blood vampires. I just believe the focus should not be on how they live long or what other abilities they have, but on how they are going to get rid of their debt.

As for Dres exteriors, I can't wait to see more models finished and more flora and fauna produced. All of it is amazing stuff so far. I really hope the Deshaan exteriors can begin production by June-July this year.

This whole Dres discussion has made the project feel like its picking up steam again, even if it is still discussion.

[Infragris]

Maybe not quite relevant, but thought I'd mention it here: lorewise, the idea of secret vampires infiltrating or controlling a faction is usually connected with the Empire, Mages Guild or Imperial nobility. Special mention to the Nibenese nobility who intermarried with, er, immortal vampire shapeshifting snakemen from Akavir.

The idea of the Dres leaders being corpses or mummies is very intriguing. I never saw the Dres as a magically adept House, so I would suggest keeping them as mummies, with House members speaking on their behalf - keeping it ambiguous if the corpse actually speaks through them or if they are just making it up. Kind of an inversion of the Telvanni system: here the "Mouth" has the power and agency, the master is a cipher.