House Dres Brainstorming

[ObligatoryUsername]

-snip-

This makes sense. I still think it would be possible to find one faction that could be kept relatively localized to the eastern end of Morrowind. (Yes, Telvanni makes the most sense due to their more insular nature, Indoril also could work once you finish the Indoril areas which are mostly completed). Talk of significantly editing vanilla is one of those things that confuses me about the project. I don't see a reason it couldn't be like it is now, where the factions are relatively separated.

The Great Houses, and Telvanni in particular, are suited to this. The members who migrated to Vvardenfell during the land grab could be considered rogue (whether officially and outwardly, to keep up appearances, or also inwardly due to their comparatively liberal stance on issues such as regular admission of outlanders [including betmer!] or their seizure of Temple lands). Redoran and Hlaalu could be explained in this manner, however their regions are not even close to being finished so they're not very good candidates for a "preview showcase" faction.

Indoril, on the other hand, does not even run up against this issue since there is no joinable Vvardenfell Indoril faction. If the Indoril areas could be completed in the next year or two, complete with quests, that's really all I'm suggesting. I'm not expecting anything like this to be released in the next few 90 day releases, that's for damn sure. There would still be the problem of possibly not having all the areas to visit on the quest line yet. I would imagine the main plot of Indoril's questline would mostly focus around Necrom, Almalexia and possibly Vvardenfell, however. It might not be too difficult to fill in a few extra "run down to Tear/Narsis/OE/etc. and do a thing please" quests later, if that was something that was needed.

The only factions that make very little sense to be separated from their Vvardenfell branch are the Imperial factions which are empire-wide such as the Legion or the Blades. The EEC on Solstheim is arguable, but I think it makes sense for that faction to be divided into local chapters. So too with the Fighter's Guild or the Mage's Guild, which are divided into local chapters already - I would guess they are also divided into regional chapters as well, which explains why Trebonius and Sjoring are the "Arch-mage" and "Guildmaster" despite the Guild proper being headquartered in Cyrodiil. A guild like the Morag Tong would also probably follow this same regional structure, since writs need to be executed in a somewhat timely fashion. Once again this would explain Eno Hlaalu being a Grandmaster despite having no known ties to the mainland. The Thieves Guild is such a loosely organized affair that I doubt the Vvardenfell branches even regularly communicate with people across the sea. It's less an organized guild and more of a social club where everyone likes to steal things. Bosses simply give members tips in exchange for a cut, or give the Thieves a cut of the profit from the item. There's little need for an Empire or province-wide top-down hierarchy when their activities are mostly so locally oriented. Conflicts with the Camonna Tong, Hlaalu, etc. would probably be handled by the high-ups in the guild on a case-by-case basis. I don't think there should be a "Thieves Guild Committee for Dismantling the Cammonna Tong" which meets at the Elks Lodge every Thursday at 6. You could even make a case that the Vvardenfell Cult branch is it's own special missionary branch tasked with proselytizing to the inhabitants of the Dunmer holy island. Ashlanders are obviously divided into tribes, while they have no real faction quest line aside from a few main-quest hurdles. If there were going to be Ashlander/Velothi factions on the mainland, I really doubt status with the Urshilaku would translate to status with a mainland tribe in any meaningful way. It doesn't even mean much to the other Vvardenfell tribes.



I don't really understand the vampire idea very clearly, so I won't be chiming in on that any more except to say I agree that another solution might be more understandable for the average player. If it's done well, however, I have no problem with vampires whether blood, ash, salt, licorice or otherwise. (Please don't make licorice vampires).

[EJRS]

I like the idea of corpse-dres: mummies of important ancestors kept in the council halls of each clan, called upon to act as councilors in matters of law/tradition, war and commerce.

I don't think, however, that these should be seen as the heads of the clans and in extension the heads of the house as a whole: ancestor worship is no secret among the Dunmer, something that should be even more prominent among the old school Dres, and we know already that Dunmer are very selective about what types of necromancy they condemn while they happily go along with their own sanctioned necromancy. Still, having a mummy as your earthly leader is pretty damn impractial.

As such, I think it makes perfect sense to have mummies that act as a channel to these departed ancestors, and their council to be heeded, but I also think that the top positions within the clan would more believably and practically be held by living members.

[Ironed Maidens]

What about my Dres Skyrender honey idea?

[ObligatoryUsername]

As for real world examples of mummified leaders taking an active role, there actually are some, believe it or not. I am no expert on mummification, but I do know of at least two examples off the top of my head.

Some pre-Inca tribes in the Andean mountains were known to take the remains of their leaders into battle on litters. If these mummies were somehow captured, it was considered a disaster similar to the loss of a legionary eagle. A documented example of this is the Chanka tribe. Pachacuti, founder of the Inca Empire, defeated the Chanka early in his reign by capturing their mummified first ruler Uscovilca.

Jeremy Bentham, the founder of London University (now known as University College London) is a more modern example - some people claim that his body is wheeled into meetings of the University College London (UCL) council. While UCL officially maintains that these stories are merely myths, here is an excerpt from his will. I leave it to you folks to decide whether it has been carried out to the letter or not.
[spoiler]My body I give to my dear friend Doctor Southwood Smith to be disposed of in a manner hereinafter mentioned, and I direct ... he will take my body under his charge and take the requisite and appropriate measures for the disposal and preservation of the several parts of my bodily frame in the manner expressed in the paper annexed to this my will and at the top of which I have written Auto Icon. The skeleton he will cause to be put together in such a manner as that the whole figure may be seated in a chair usually occupied by me when living, in the attitude in which I am sitting when engaged in thought in the course of time employed in writing. I direct that the body thus prepared shall be transferred to my executor. He will cause the skeleton to be clad in one of the suits of black occasionally worn by me. The body so clothed, together with the chair and the staff in the my later years bourne by me, he will take charge of and for containing the whole apparatus he will cause to be prepared an appropriate box or case and will cause to be engraved in conspicuous characters on a plate to be affixed thereon and also on the labels on the glass cases in which the preparations of the soft parts of my body shall be contained ... my name at length with the letters ob: followed by the day of my decease. If it should so happen that my personal friends and other disciples should be disposed to meet together on some day or days of the year for the purpose of commemorating the founder of the greatest happiness system of morals and legislation my executor will from time to time cause to be conveyed to the room in which they meet the said box or case with the contents therein to be stationed in such part of the room as to the assembled company shall seem meet.[/spoiler]

I realize that obviously this is not the same as the mummies actually having a back-and-forth exchange with the living, but it's the closest thing that is feasible in our world which (thankfully) lacks skilled necromancers. I thought this might be of interest to this discussion, in any case.

[Not]

Alright too many people to quote here so I'm just going to come out with it.

The reason that we're going with vampires is not because we want to emulate the horrible version that vanilla has or because we think "oh cool, house of vampires yeah!" kind of garbage either. We're doing it because we created an unique back story that really sets house dres apart and gives it a very dark sort of under theme if you will. Right now we have Kaziem and Swiftoak writing out the documents for house Dres and it's almost complete.

We wanted to establish the story of how the house was founded in the first place as well as how it got to where it is now. We came up with vampirism as the best method for immortality because we thought the idea of them trying to hold off paying up was a brilliant move that plays on the Dres nature. What also makes it interesting is that the Dres councilors that you finally meet when you get that far in the quest line are the same Wise Women from over 4000 years ago; they became vampires shortly after the war of the first council. We wanted to emphasize that they took this immortality to help their people, to guide them along if you will. Their intentions were pure, but their methods not so much. Now they're going to have to pay up and they're backed into a corner. There's more to it than that, more intricate details, but overall that about sums it up. The leader of house Dres is not a corpse or a mummy. We were leaning towards a character that never actually existed at all or a puppet figurehead.

We're no longer going to be endlessly discussing ideas that ultimately go nowhere anymore. We will discuss, we will flesh out lore and create interesting concepts with as much input as we can get. However, there comes a time when we just have to put our foot down and say "enough is enough." We've had a couple skype meetings to discuss all of this on top of countless hours in IRC where we talked about this on top of god knows whatever else. Our decision has been made. Obviously we're not going to please everybody, but the only argument I seem to be getting is "they shouldn't be vampires because vampires are boring."

We created this idea based on what little existing lore we had on the house and we wanted to make it as symbolic as possible; drawing a parallel between the Tribunal and the councilors. Both achieved immortality to guide their people, both are standing on failing legs while everything crumples around them.

The ideas of having them as mummies or else taking orders from mummies doesn't really offer a suitable solution. You're trying to create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist simply because the idea of vampires doesn't sit well with you. The only alternative I'm seeing here is, instead of a council of vampires, we'll have a council of mummies. With vampires there's context and makes sense with the lore and interesting backstory we've created. With mummies....I'm not even going to touch that.

All I can do is assure you that we're not going to make the fact that they're vampires our central theme of the house, it's simply how they achieved immortality. I don't see how sucking on honey or being possessed by mummies is a better solution. We're not going to make them all powerful or even really focus on the fact that they're vampires at all; it's just a horrible decision they felt they had to make to unify their people.

Bottom line: We appreciate the input, but the idea of Dres councilors is not up for debate anymore. It's been decided and that's how we're going to go through with it. I'm sorry we couldn't convince you guys. If it sinks, that's on us and you can tell us you told us so, however I don't think it will. If you want to contribute to the discussion thread, we can talk about settlements and certain people and whatnot, but the council itself has already been decided and set in stone.

[Guest]

Yes you have explained the reason why to use vampires a few times. And other people like me explained why that is - in my opinion - the wrong move. I think we have reached the point where discussing wont lead to a good result, because nobody will accept anything else exept his own opinion. Dont see that too negative, but I say it as it is.

So once again, my suggestion: vote and end of discussion.

[NathanJ]

Oh sry, I posted as guest.

[Ironed Maidens]

I call bullshit. Why don't we do a vote then? Dres is still in its infancy stages so we can change the lore at any time; I think a vote is fair. We can have them be, albeit interesting, vampires. Or we can have them use Skyrender honey to induce a peyote-like stasis in which they can communicate with the Great Ancestors to try and lead their house; the council is not immortal, but they will live for eras and eras to come through some other means.

I'm sorry, but I find the latter idea much more interesting, which will lead to better story-telling, in my opinion. It's always up for debate, because you have more than a few people against the idea. I don't see what the problem changing the basis of the council is. It's JUST THE COUNCIL, and right now the ideas I've heard about them all fall flat to how much more dark and ethereal they seem just based off of some one-off ideas I have spewed off in just this thread alone.

Know what, I'll make you a deal. Give me a week to write up an entire timeline backstory that you can read, and if everyone STILL thinks the original idea is better, then you guys can do what you will. Until then, I think a vote is only fair...

[klep]

Boy that escalated quickly. I was off for a few hours and had some time to think. So, as opposed to what I said earlier, I am not totally against a (blood or non-blood) vampire Dres Council. It seems to me we are over-thinking this. In the end it isn't about what they are, but about the fact that Dres is in deep shit and they have to get out. The council being vampires wouldn't be common knowledge. Those who do suspect something, probably all suspect something else. At some point the PC will find out what they are, but only at a very late stage in the quest line. And, again, the quest line isn't about them being vampires or not.

That said, voting is absolutely not the way to go. We decide based on quality discussion and valid arguments, not on a majority of yays or nays. As long as a valid alternative isn't proposed, I strongly advocate to stick to the proper idea which we already have. Mummies and immortality-honey do not sound like good alternatives to me, so let's stick with the vampires and move on to discussing Dres rather than this detail which is definitely not the decisive detail for how the Dres quest line will advance.

[Gnomey]

I'm still catching up on this topic, so do keep that in mind.

I'm personally very against leaving this decision to public vote. The Lead Dev position exists for several reasons, and this is one of the more important ones. We do naturally take people's opinions into account, we do consider them while making decisions, we try to communicate those decisions to people as clearly as possible when they are made to leave no room for uncertainly, and in some cases we may leave decisions up for public vote. I don't think we should feel obliged to do the last one.
Not posted her post with Lead Dev approval, and generally that should be the end of the matter. That being said, we have discussed the matter further and have agreed to leave the decision open until the next meeting (which will be on Saturday 24). We will finalize the decision then taking prior discussion into account. The decision will not, however, be left to public vote.

[Ironed Maidens]

kelp - Not immortality honey, that's a stupid sounding idea.

Gnomey - Fair enough. If the powers that be within TR will allow it, then I will have a proposal by the 24th.

[Gnomey]

I do suggest you try and keep your proposal relatively short and straightforward, by the way, as that will make it easier for people to read and reply to. I do not suggest you write out a whole timeline for it.

[ObligatoryUsername]

I'm not entirely sure where this mummies idea even came from, since my suggestion involved ancestor spirits and I didn't see anyone else mentioning something similar. Maybe I missed a post?

I don't have any problem with whatever solution, though it does seem like this is a very controversial decision that doesn't sit well with all of the developers and interested players.

I don't know why there would be a vote on the issue since that isn't how decisions are made for the mod.

I'm not even terribly interested in the Dres, quite frankly. I just wanted to throw some wrenches at your plan and see if anything inspired y'all. It spurred a nice discussion, anyway!

[EJRS]

Bottom line: We appreciate the input, but the idea of Dres councilors is not up for debate anymore. It's been decided and that's how we're going to go through with it. I'm sorry we couldn't convince you guys. If it sinks, that's on us and you can tell us you told us so, however I don't think it will. If you want to contribute to the discussion thread, we can talk about settlements and certain people and whatnot, but the council itself has already been decided and set in stone.

If this is the case, I'm quite definitely out, out of the project altogether.

If things aren't up for discussion anymore, then I think this has strayed quite a bit too far from where it originally started. I've held off active contributions in the form of interior and exterior work since I've had my doubts about the project and where it is headed, but this quite definitely nails it. Its become fascist, and since this is not a project that offers any kind of payment, I don't see any reason to continue contributing if input is not valued anymore.

[ObligatoryUsername]

snip

I'm not sure if Not's post was meant to come across that way, but it did sound a bit hostile. I just chalked it up to the difficulties inherent in conveying tone in text format. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt, at least.

[Not]

snip

I'm not sure if Not's post was meant to come across that way, but it did sound a bit hostile. I just chalked it up to the difficulties inherent in conveying tone in text format. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt, at least.

It wasn't meant to be hostile but I can understand how others would perceive it that way. The post I made prior to this one I made sure to screenshot it and get the other lead devs approval first. We decided that we had to put our foot down somewhere with this particular issue because it was just a bunch of back and forth. We discussed many different ideas at length, but no one is budging. All I'm getting from this thread was that vampirism simply won't work for the sake of vampirism, so we'll find another way of giving them immortality that does pretty much the same thing but they're not vampires.

Look, if there was a viable solution or better yet, a specific reason that would explain why vampirism wouldn't work other than "it's cliche" we'd go for it. However, we've all read this thread and heard the ideas and we'd still like to go with the vampirism idea simply because it we believe it fits better.

The problem with TR is that no one ever puts their foot down and says "this is what we're going to do, let's do it." It's just endless discussion and in this particular instance I don't see an end to it. Someone had to be the bad guy and put their foot down, it just happened to be me in this instance. No one's mind is going to change. We decided to end the discussion revolving the Dres councilors so we could move on to other issues, not because we didn't care what anyone else had to think. We listen to others and take input all the time, but at the end of the day, if a decision has to be made and no one can come to an agreement, then the lead devs need to put their foot down. TR is not, nor has it ever been a democracy.

As for voting, TR has never been a democracy and I can't endorse that. However, because of the heated issue that seemed to arise here, we're going to further discuss this at next week's skype meeting and figure out something from there.

If things aren't up for discussion anymore, then I think this has strayed quite a bit too far from where it originally started. I've held off active contributions in the form of interior and exterior work since I've had my doubts about the project and where it is headed, but this quite definitely nails it. Its become fascist, and since this is not a project that offers any kind of payment, I don't see any reason to continue contributing if input is not valued anymore.

On this particular issue, things are no longer up for debate as far as the councilors go (well, excluding next week's skype meeting anyway.) I did not mean to come off as hostile in that last post and I didn't mean to imply that everything altogether was no longer up for debate, so I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. If you still want to leave however, then we'll understand. There's nothing we can do about it; we'll discuss this issue at the next skype meeting but we're not going to cater to people's wants just to make them stick around.

[ObligatoryUsername]

The problem with TR is that no one ever puts their foot down and says "this is what we're going to do, let's do it."

Is there an upvote button anywhere?

[Ironed Maidens]

It's more the idea that even the vampires but not vampires idea isn't even fully fleshed out. You keep saying that TR has had all this stuff written up, but where is it? Where's the established conduit of how the council got to be vampires? By way of Daedric intervention? All I've been saying is there is certainly room for better ideas, and as far as I know, nobody has EVER talked about the Dres in the passed, what, six years? We are just not coming up to the development of the Dres lands and, if we are going to FOLLOW THE MASTER PLAN THAT WE ALL SO PAINSTAKINGLY WANTED TO GET FLESHED OUT, then I really don't give a damn about what was posted back in 2005 because now is now, and all I've heard from you is basically a long-winded 'Well this is what we talked about back then and things aren't going to change now.'

Uhhhh, RING-RING, it's reality, and guess what, EVERYTHING has changed since then. I'm asking for an opportunity to pitch an idea that I think has better potential than whatever paper-thin allusion to ingenuity I've seen discussed so far, and while you may be the one to put your foot down and say enough is enough, I'm going to put mine down harder and say no it's not, not until I at least get to put forth what I want to put forth, and not until I can get a chance to explain what may be a way better characterization in the future.

EDIT: Ok, so it's been like 3 year really, but IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS VERY THREAD YOU'LL SEE EVEN SLOAD SAID VAMPIRES MORE IN THE ESSENCE OF ASH VAMPIRES. So holy sweet mother of Jesus fucking Christ, how much more redundant can you get with this? Give it a week and then we can all go on living our happy little lives outside this one particular schism.

[Gnomey]

The stuff being discussed here isn't from 2005; it's mostly following the impromptu Skype meeting on December 30, 2015 which can be found at the bottom of the first post in this thread. A few posts were made on the forum linking to it so that people wouldn't miss it, but come to think of it that was around New Years, so perhaps it wasn't as visible as we'd hoped.

I'd like to add as a note that if anyone has concerns about the direction the project is going, or if an official-looking statement by a lead dev seems overly harsh or dictatorial, please consider getting in contact with a/that lead dev or several and discussing it, for example via PM or IRC. I don't think it really does anyone any good to harbour uncertainties about the project's direction or the attitude of its leadership. We will be able to clarify our attitude and hopefully clear up any misunderstandings, so that you can feel comfortable working with us. If, in the worst case, we end up affirming your impression and you are uncomfortable with our approach, I think it's better to be certain of it.
I'd like it if this thread in particular could get back on track. These sort of derails have a habit of killing a topic -- at least for a while -- which is one of the reasons why the former policy was to just lock them.

Edit: just to be clear, by 'derail' I mean discussing TR's decision making, not discussing how vampires are a stupid idea. As I wrote in my earlier post, that's still fair game.

[NathanJ]

Wow, I didnt think thats gonna become so heated..

Well, as I said, this mod cannot be 100% perfect. And Im not against the lead devs making decisions for the whole mod.

But I have to say that in cases where the community is so much involved emotionally it can be dangerous to make decisions that ignore (and I dont mean "not to listen" but "not to involve them in the decision") such a big part of it - TR can be seriously damaged when developers decide to leave the project, because it hasnt much developers, as you all know.

We have to find a way to stick together even in times like this, and to keep the project being interesting for the majority of the community - thats the fuel thats powering this mod, I wouldnt have joined it if I werent fascinated by the idea and what already has been done for it.

BUT, last but not least, which direction the final solution goes, let us all work together to make this mod a great experience! Even with vampire lords as Dres councillors and colorful unicorn tribes wandering the ashlands.

[Guest]

From what I can tell, what's mostly grinding people's gears regarding the Dres council is:



1. The (rather unbelievable) idea of a static council of vampiric individuals who have not only held direct political power for millennia but have simultaneously kept their foul nature (and their enduring undyingness) concealed during that whole time, and

2. It doesn't relate explicitly, satisfactorily, *and openly* enough to the Dres' primary motif--which is ancestry.




A solution:

The Dres council should be comprised of Dunmer, as mortal as any other, who worship their ancestors--their familial forebears--just as all "good" Dres do. But they also spiritually confer with their dead predecessors, acquiring guidance in their rule and enabling a relatively fixed political system. This notion of a sort of "posthumous perpetuation" of council leadership is common knowledge in the minds of the Dres public. But since the councilors' purported communication with their predecessors occurs within a nature of secluded ritual, many subconsciously dismiss the whole idea as nothing more than a facade catering to the common cultural and religious precepts of the Dres' unchanging, ancestor-loving society.

And, in fact, that mindset is actually entirely correct. Yet it is also completely wrong.

Because the councilors do communicate with their ancestral predecessors, albeit just the very first councilor of each of their respective sub-districts...

Because those councilors never died.

For each member of the Dres council, there is another individual--an immortal vampire who was one of the council's original founders--who controls (whether through brainwashing or something, that can be figured out later) the living mer who currently holds their original council seat. Through the living council members, the Ald Sirac (I thought they'd need a name that they call themselves, so I just made this up) perpetuate their rule.

So there's very little different here from what's been discussed.

After Dres' founding, the original council members collectively became vampires to extend their lives and power, but after some time they abdicated or feigned their deaths (and all of them would have done these things at different times) because their constituents would obviously be skeptical of their apparent immortality, and any of the traveling and personal interfacing required of a politician aren't very compatible with being a vampire. So, new council members would come to power in their sub-districts, and the council founders starting using some method of controlling these mortal councilors to effectively continue their own rule, which they still do to this day.



Now:

1. There is no direct vampiric rule in the Dres Confederacy. Instead, every Dres council member is shadowed and controlled by the immortal vampiric council member who originally founded that council seat, completely unbeknownst to Dres society.

2. The ancestry motif is alive and well in the pretense used to explain how each Dres council rules eerily similarly to every other Dres council.



Otherwise, I think everything can be just about the same as previously discussed here and that these ideas are compatible with them.

[Shask]

My apologies--I was automatically logged off without my awareness. That last post is mine.

[Guest]

Don't think gnomey or the other lead devs are deserving of harsh words..they aren't a bunch of assholes of something. Gnomey among others has done a lot to spearhead this latest reorganization and that should be appreciated.

That said,there is a general ingrained culture within TR that is geared toward shutting down discussion and remaking and renaming things over being receptive to ideas and contributions of all members and creation of fresh content. Getting bogged down in the most minute details is also common.

Speaking for myself, it can be frustrating to go over the same points and ideas that often somehow escape the core dialogue even when they are echoed by many other members. I think my ideas are very good, nearly all of them.. If I didn't I wouldn't post them. Most people probably feel the same about their own ideas the question is how do we come to a best consensus possible.

I don't know. But I don't think removing discussion and work process from forums is best. That is not where there most important decisions should be made. Skype meetings should be a point where progress is reviewed on a monthly basis and ideas and opinions are made more clear. Whatever results from that should be brought back here for the group to decide and if necessary vote. Lead devs should not have some overwhelming veto power or determine what we will be doing for the group because frankly no single person has shown the intuition, foresight, the genius, focus and PR needed to orchestrate a project of this size by themselves.

Often the most capable people won't even have the time to contribute to do what it takes to be a "lead dev." but they might have the vision required to steer this thing in the right direction. Ultimately that direction has to be the best for everyone involved, so everyone should have the opportunity at all stages to be involved. And by involved I mean involving decision making.

Lastly, every member has their own strengths.. I consider myself more a visionary and a doer.. I don't like to bother with the details because by the time I've thought of something it already seems good enough. I like to explain my ideas and as I do so it helps me understand them better myself. I find the details while in the creative process.

I don't enjoy is have to defend my ideas or frame my work or concepts in a way to make them suddenly acceptable here.. I don't enjoy the shitstorm that seems required to have things recognized.

Others are obviously have their own ways.

Where this last bit is going: maybe instead of simple titles like interior or exterior dev.. Lead devs and devs, Etc. What if instead we had titles to describe skill set or motives like.. Visionary, planner, detail oriented, mediator lorehead etc.. just so we could better understand how members see themselves and what motivates them and what areas of the project they might best be suited for. Because it often seems like a lot of people here are absolutely clueless in this regard.

Im not scrambling to review interiors or making massive planning documents or thinking up stellar names for new towns because that's not my domain. That doesn't mean there can't be some crossover, but when I post ideas I like to know they will be noted because, thats what I do, primarily.

This project has nearly been to run into the ground.. Most of it through burnout but imo my much of it through bad handling of the decision making process and an elitist attitude that has pushed many away. That needs to change. I'm sorry it been decided is such a bogus excuse to close a discussion when, like, 70% of what has been done in the last 3 years was remaking completed areas.

But I'm digressing from the topic here. I agree the vampire dres leaders would be a poor choice.

[sasquatch2o]

I just wanted to agree completely with the above poster. 100%.

[Not]

Locking this topic as we're going to continue it on the new forums. New thread can be found here.