Proposal: Tamriel Main Quest

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Post by The Mad God »

I understand the concern that we might never get around to the point where the Tamriel Main Quest needs to be implemented.

Still, even if the time to implement it never comes, I believe that having a Tamriel Main Quest ready is important. It will give all of the Provincial Main Quests a consistent feel.
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Post by Vegor »

I agree with the fact we should have a MQ ready no matter what.
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

Legolas, AWESOME ideas there. However, I think that the emperor should tie in with the cyrodiil main quest, not the TMQ. I already had a small idea for cyrodiil's MQ, and that would fit in with it nicely.
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Post by Jacurutu »

To Legolas: I think that the "womb of the void" may mean the Nether Realm, the home of the Daedra. This may pertain more closely to the Bloodmoon prophecy, seeing as how you have to go and battle Hircine (a Daedra) at the end, but the "womb of the void" part could also simply mean that the Daedra intend to influence whatever goes down, that they will be involved in saving the Empire.

Or the womb of the void may have to do with something even more powerful than the Daedra, a creature or God which sired them. Perhaps this God intends to create new Aedra/Daedra which would help in the coming events.
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Post by Legolas55 »

Well, you only get this prophecy after you complete the Bloodmoon quest, and I don't think he'll be making a prophecy of the past. I personally think this is a hint to a future Elder Scrolls game, or Bethesda is just trying to mess with us :) . If anything, the "dragon" will have something to do with the Empire or at least the nine divines (perhaps akatosh?). I'm tired of using Daedra for everything. They're not mysterious enough, so I'm going to try to come up with a Cyrodil main quest based on this.
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Post by Eraser »

"Where is the lost dragon's blood? the
Empire's sire?" -maybe this means there is an heir nobody knows about, someone with lineage to tiber septim?

"And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?"- maybe a person(thing) born from a daedra(like vivec and molag bal's(was that the right daedra?) children?) plays a role in the turmoil of the empire collapsing?
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Post by Legolas55 »

The womb of the void part is the part that is the most unclear. Let's just say that void is refering to oblivion. Womb would have something to do with birth or reborn from oblivion. Anybody have any idea who or what that means?

For the stem of the blood tide, stem could mean be the base point or connect. Like in a plant, the stem is the center part where all the leaves and roots connect to. It is also a source for all of the other parts. Tide is very unclear, but perhaps it means the rising and falling of the blood, maybe the "true" septims and the empire. Right now, it is in a falling state. Tide could also mean a flow, which in general would mean "who will come out as a source from the blood flow." This part is very unclear and will need more thoughts and opinions on what they mean.

Eraser, perhaps your thought that there is a missing heir would work better than every emperor from Tharn to now being of false blood. The so called heirs in Cyrodil are people of Tharn and they sent the true heir away on exile.
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Post by Assassinace »

Ok here's my take

"When the dragon dies the empire dies"
When the current septim dies the empire will crumble

"Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?"
Where is septims father ie the guy tharn trapped in stasis.

"And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?"
Obviously something from oblivion is coming through creating a large bloody war. Who is stopping it, well probably the PC in TES IV.

any questions?
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Post by Legolas55 »

Well, I don't think people would see the current emperor or just about any other one that wasn't truly spectcular as a dragon, since Imperials see dragons as being high and mighty (symbol of akatosh.) The only true "dragon" would be Tiber Septim himself, or akatosh, but Tiber Septim fits much better. The father of the empire is Tiber Septim with no doubt.
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Post by Assassinace »

Although the "true" dragon would be akatosh and tiber septim I believe the whole septim line carries the monicker dragon (As the symbol of royal lineage).
If it is akatosh there is more of a problem then just a blood tide as akatosh is the embodiment of time itself.

If it is Tiber septim that dies it could be talking about the god tiber septim or the septim bloodline as a whole. If the latter then my initial statement is pretty much in tact however if it is the god that is a bit more esoteric and not something we can easily work with because there is little known about his godhood and what the loss of it would mean.
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Post by Legolas55 »

Maybe dies refers to the spirit and faith the people have in Tiber Septim is lost or disrespected. Then the memory or spirit of Tiber Septim dies since no one has faith in him anymore, yet it would take a lot for Imperials to lose faith in Tiber Septim.
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Post by Indoril »

Or the womb of the void may have to do with something even more powerful than the Daedra, a creature or God which sired them. Perhaps this God intends to create new Aedra/Daedra which would help in the coming events.
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Post by Jacurutu »

It was just the way I was typing, it has nothing to do with any actual religions. I was trying to impress upon the readers the singularity of this power, and capitalizing it seemed to be a good way to hint at this.
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Post by Earl »

"When the dragon dies the empire dies"
Could refer to Uriel. But it could also refer to a specific literal dragon, since those are known to exist... and what's more, the dragons mostly live in Cyrodiil. The death of a dragon would be a blow to Cyrodiil's military, which would allow for the crumbling of the Empire.

On the other hand, "dragon" might refer to the biggest dragon of them all, Akatosh. And another Dragon Break would be his metaphorical death. So the operation of the Anumidia in the MQ could signal the impending collapse of the Empire. After being so severely taxed, the Empire is doomed to be picked apart by the provinces sooner or later. I like this interpretation.


"Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?"
Could refer to an heir. Or the two statements could be separate -- dragon's blood and Empire's sire being different things.

Or it could be a rhetorical question. Where are the heirs? Dead, replaced by Tharn's dopplegangers way back when. I like this interpretation.


"And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?"
Assuming void = Oblivion. The gods were created in Oblivion. Those gods created the world within Oblivion. Thus, the void is a womb in two contexts, and "womb of the void" is just poetic description. Or it could be an expression equal to our "Who the hell...", making it depressing and desperate.

It's unclear whether the blood tide comes from the void, or whether the stemmer of said tide does, or both. Hell, in the context of the other quotes, Tiber Septim himself might pull himself back through Oblivion into Nirn. "Where's the Empire's sire?" [sire as in father] -- right here, stemming that tide.

Blood tide could refer to war. Or to a risen Thras, the Sload striking from across the water [thus tide] with some kind of disease [death equalling blood]. Or an invasion by Akavir [blood tide indicating naval battles].



Taken as a whole, it'd be funny if the death of Uriel triggers the collapse, leading to the lament of the second line, which would progress into the blood tide, as the provinces start getting uppity in the face of an Empire without a legit ruler. Enter Tiber Septim, fresh from Oblivion. BAM! No more blood tide. And finally "When the dragon dies the empire dies" -- Tiber's return reaffirms the life of the Empire; the dragon isn't dead. Not that I think that's likely, or anything.
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Post by Zalzidrax »

I think that it means the next game will be about the empire descending into chaos after the emperor dies (when the dragon dies, the empire dies- the emperor is often referred to as the dragon). There will be one heck of a war (blood tide) instigated or assisted by daedric forces (references to oblivion, etc. also "blood tide" seems to poetic for a normal civil war). The incarnation of the first emperor will return to put a stop to the bloody mess.

I think we'd be fine fitting in this idea as a prelude to the much more massive chaos of this blood tide war thingummie; the beginning of the end so to speak.

I also like the idea of a massive battle in front of THarn's citadel- but of course we have to hide this citadel, don't we? Otherwise the player's just going to waltz in there and kill everything right from the get go.

So here's my plan:
Layout 21 cells like this (the X's are just placeholders)

X A A A X

A B B B A

A B C B A

A B B B A

X A A A X

C is the citadel

When the character enters a B cell from an A cell before the proper time,a script will teleport them instead to the A cell directly across.
The A cell's terrain will not only line up with the B cells, but with the A cells directly across, so that there are only very subtle differences seen when the player is teleported, so that it will take some perception to figure out exactly what is going on. This could be explained by a powerful illusion or enchantment that protects the citdel, and one of the quests can be devising a means of destroying the enchantments, thus leading to the final battle.
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Post by Morden »

Doesn't the game load up 3 cells in every direction at a time? Or something like that?

I'm not sure you'd have to hide the Citadel from plain sight through some sort of illusion... The temple of Vivec is always on Vvardenfel. As opposed to hiding it all together just either make it impossible to enter, or make it useless to enter... whats the point of trying to get in if Tharn's not inside, ect, ect.

Also, due to the limits of the game engine, there won't actually be a big battle in front of the citdel, it will simply be a backdrop for the events inside fortress.
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Post by Indoril »

So, are we doing the Caius Cosades thing?
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Post by Zalzidrax »

Morden wrote: Doesn't the game load up 3 cells in every direction at a time? Or something like that?
It's two actually, well I guess if you count the one you're in it's three, but anyway, what I'm saying is that you could still get a glimpse of the fortress through the mist (make it foggy always in that cell or something, but it would still be harder to notice.
Morden wrote: I'm not sure you'd have to hide the Citadel from plain sight through some sort of illusion... The temple of Vivec is always on Vvardenfel. As opposed to hiding it all together just either make it impossible to enter, or make it useless to enter... whats the point of trying to get in if Tharn's not inside, ect, ect.
It always seems to me when you run into something like that- an impenetrable castle or whatever- it kind of ruins the immersiveness of the game. It's just so obvious that something you absolutely cannot enter except to do a certain part of the game's story is so contrived, and really is jarring compared to the freedom you otherwise get in morrowind. I guess it's probably more of a personal pet peeve, but it still would be cool to make it like that. :D
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Post by Assassinace »

It seems easier to me to build a dome out of ghost fence statics or the like.
Or have the thing appear like a stronghold when you do something. Or you could do like that building in the main quest that only opens if you do something (The building that only opens during dusk).
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Post by Zalzidrax »

Or maybe have the illusion be one that makes it look like a big rock formation that disappears when the illusion is dissolved.
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Post by Indoril »

*Indoril is throwing a hissy fit while jumping up and down.*

ARE WE DOING MY CAIUS COSADES IDEA!!!!!??????
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Post by Assassinace »

If it fits when we get to that point yes. However it's far off so calm down for awhile.
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Post by Indoril »

*Indoril sits in the corner, ashamed he threw a fit.*
Stendarr is the God of Mercy and Justice. Therefore, he must also be the bearer of Duck Tape, for only Mercy and Justice can use Duck Tape for the Good of man.
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war

Post by Anonymous »

I think it would be really cool if at least one large full scale war would break out between some one, some where, some time. Just so you could get invovled in some battles and maybe become a war hereo. Being able to pick what side you join would be a cool plus also. Doesn't have to tie in to the main quest at all. But yeah so tell me what you think. If it could work or not.
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Post by Haplo »

*And thus does Haplo make his presense known amongst the writers of the quests, and they trembled with fear, for in their hearts they know that he hath taught Indoril everything he hath learned.*

We wont be able to show scenes with lots of NPCs, as it slows even my superfast Area 51 to a degrading 17 frames per second when I have over 70 NPCs in one cell.

*And thus does Haplo make his absense felt amongst the writers of the quests, and they laughed with joy, for in their hearts they know that he hath taught Indoril everything he hath learned.*
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Post by Assassinace »

That's not entirely true. A big battle could be done although we would have to be somewhat tricky. You would have to make the battle flow so that all the fighters are activated rather then being in the cell at once and making the transitions between the cells fit into the overall fight so loading doesn't become a pain.
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Post by Haplo »

*and yada yada*

I didn't say that ace, I said we couldn't do a large battle scene with dozens of NPCs in the same cell. At least that's what I was trying to imply. Sorry for missunderstanding.

*and so on and so forth*
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Post by Garriath »

I know this thread's been dead for a while.

I also know this idea probably doesn't fit in with the rest of the aforementioned prophecy.

However, when I heard, "Who from the womb of the void" I thought of the Nerevarine. He was born, obvously, to 'uncertain parents.' This leaves a fair deal open. Perhaps the Nerevarine was found on a street, extremely young, with no recollections of his (or her) parents. Or perhaps there was something else. However, I feel either way 'from the womb of the void' could pertain to the Incarnate. As was stated long before, the womb is where people come from, and the void is lots of nothing (could pertain to Oblivion, but I doubt it.) People know nothing of where the Nerevarine came from, or perhaps he did not come from mortals but was simply made out of nothing, or Oblivion, pertaining to the 'void' stated previously. However, in my opinion the 'who, from the womb of the void' suggests that there are more than one options for people from the 'womb of the void,' so either it isn't the Nerevarine (which is entirely possible) or there are others like him.

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Post by Anonymous »

Hi Guy's, I'm new to this - so feel free to ignore these

3 Things

1) Maybe a kind of prologue quest or two, so that you can see the city guards getting edgier as the tension rises between guilds. Before dumping the player into the "THESE ARE THE ENEMY" mindset.

2) MQ - rather than having a single linear plot, how about a more weaving idea, where you get to see 2/3rds of the story with the main plot. However, should you follow (for example) the thieves guild's plots you could find that the suppliers of the evil bad group. Should you then say remove the supplier's a script could activate, making all of the enemy forces weaker.

I think that this kind of approach could even bring a deeper tactical aspect to the game as well as adding replay value.

3) As for Cosades, we could have him in the back drop of a meeting w/the blades, just as a polite tribute to the subtle complexities of the Original Morrowind.
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main quest

Post by Anonymous »

this idea is very good having cauis back and the war but i was reading through this and suddenly reliased the orignal habitants are the dunmer. why not have a war between the empire and the dunmer but have a choise of which side to fight for eg. 1.make and ilsland of dunmer. here you can fight for dunmer. 2.Join the empire and fight for them. After doing this you could get an artifact or something. also if you need healing you could have battle mages heal you and raise your magicka. also once you start the war you can not leave the are or teliport to safty. this is my idea so hope you like it :idea: :D
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Post by Earl »

To point this thing back toward Tharn's heir...

I wrote up a little bit, trying to get into the head of that kind of character, and give some background or set-up or what have you. Maybe I'll keep going with it, and we could use it as a book (Tharn's Journal) or something.





My father was a brilliant man. Some might say twisted, but none could doubt or cast a dark shadow over his ability to plan and plot. For myself, I am not certain upon which side I would fall, family relation or no. For as revolting as his methods might truly be, his was a brilliance that makes me wonder if his ends might justify the means. That, as much as he was given to contemplation, perhaps the path he walked was truly the best one despite appearances to the contrary.

As cunning as my father was thought of, he was more cunning still. For though his enemies were stunned by the execution of the plan that saw him sit in the Emperor's seat for ten years, that plan was eventually uncovered and known. More impressive then, are those plans which all remain ignorant of. Those plans that, even today, give shape to the lands of Tamriel through the will of those father called his allies.

Most assume it was his ambition to rule the Empire, to pose as Uriel indefinitely, but they are wrong. For if that were the limit of his desire, what end would it serve him to allow the provinces to war amongst themselves as they did? If rulership of Tamriel were his motivation, why would he stand idle while it collapsed in upon itself? No, father's plans ran deeper than playing the part of a Septim. But how deep they went is for us to guess in his absence, and our minds are poorly shaped to the task. I do not know whether I should be glad that he did not survive to realize the full extent of his efforts, or saddened because we will likely never know where those efforts would have ultimately led.







The idea is that the network of Tharn's supporters are still following his plans, plans he made even before he assumed the Emperor's identity. Maybe they were alternate plans for that takeover, scrapped and discovered later by his allies. Maybe they were plans he made before he thought of the one he did execute. That isn't important. All that matters is that his supporters found them and decided that they could use them. That Tharn's shadow is still being cast over the land, even after his death.

Now, the fun part is finding a reason why, when he was Emperor, he allowed all those regional wars. I think I've got something for that. Two somethings, even.

1) See, just posing as Emperor wasn't good enough. Tharn wanted more. Wanted to be a god. So the thrust of the MQ is for the "bad guys" to get a Numidia up and running, controlled by the Staff of Chaos. Which contains Tharn's essence. So while the "bad guys" are following Tharn's plans and are thinking the Numidia will be their trump card against the Empire, the real point of the plan is to effectively make Tharn the Numidia. Taking over the Empire is a smokescreen, something to ensure his supporters will follow the plan. The real plan is to give Tharn life again, and as a god to boot.

2) This isn't a real explaination. But...
It was Tharn's goal to pose as Emperor indefinitely. But being Emperor gave him access to the Elder Scrolls, wherein he read... something... Maybe they spoke of his impending defeat, and he just stopped caring about holding the Empire together. Maybe they spoke of something else and his motivations changed... This path is unclear.
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Post by Anonymous »

Ah, REAL progress on the plotline here. A toast, I say, to Earl, who has breathed new life into the Quest for Our Main Quest. I admit to pondering about Tharn's plans and his network myself (after reading the proposal laid out in previous pages) and I think this a great step forward in giving detail to the dream.

*toasts Earl heartily*

Earl, I suggest you take this Tharn's Journal idea over to the Literature and Writing forum at some point (not now, necessarily, more people should read it before you put it there). In the meantime, why don't you treat us all and take a stab at the next few paragraphs right here? What you've got so far sounds great :).
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Post by Assassinace »

Actually I think better would be to show that he once in power although had set up his future plans fell in love with barenziah and his plans were left (ie love was his folly.)
Whereas Tharns hier now is set with the task of continuing his plan.
I do agree that we should use taking over the throne as a smokescreen however I am not so sure about making him the numidium.

My perception would have him taken from Barenziah by Tharns old lackeys who want thier guy in power but as Tharn's Hier is raised into power he finds out the full plans of his father. And it is the lackeys thought to use the anumidium rather then steal so they can stay in power. As for what Tharns actual plan is I don't know. Possibly becomeing a god or maybe something else.
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Post by Earl »

There are times I sit quietly, when I am alone, and think about fate. How we are the playthings of the Aedra and Daedra, how we are pulled and pushed about by the cruel hands of destiny. I wonder, if I had the Elder Scrolls before me, if I could see my life played out start to finish. But more than that, greater than those concerns... I wonder how much is simple chance, and how much bears the mark of Father. Are we fish swimming lazily in the vast ocean, or be we caught up in the swift river of his design?

Knowing the true scope and depth of Father's plotting, it makes one curious. Of the players on the great stage of Tamriel, how many were allowed their position at Father's will? That is not to say that he held sway over large numbers, that he commanded great legions who themselves commanded great legions, but which is also not to say that the forces he could call on were not considerable. His power was not in that he could call upon a great host, not in the individual people he could rely on, but in how he controlled the whole vast situation.

As Father well knew, one need not own innumerable loyal troops body and soul to accomplish one's ends. Such a thing is brutish, a tactic for simpler minds. Perhaps a tactic for more honest minds, but I digress. Force of numbers or skill of arms, these were not things which Father concerned himself with. What Father did give most consideration were the persons involved. Nobles that would turn one against another without his direction, ignorant throughout that they were serving his will. Let this heir assume a title, and not his brother, for the one could be counted upon to react with inaction when his neighbor fell, while the other would spring to his aid.

That was Father's true power; his ability to see and measure the political landscape, and turn it to his advantage. Not to forcibly dominate it, but to smoothly, seamlessly, quietly give it a direction that would see his goals met. But one thing here, and another there is scarcely enough to give direction. No, Father cast out a thousand such threads, and more besides. So many threads, all of one web. So many that I am given to darkly question are we fat spiders resting at the center, or are we but another thread? Yet Father is dead, gone. Decades have passed in silence, the only shadow of his cast over Tamriel the one we have made...
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Post by Anonymous »

...and yet the Web of Tharn remains.

:D Keep 'em coming, Earl.

Perhaps this journal of Tharn could be released in scraps to the player, like one fragment per provincial main quest. So, upon completing the MMQ, the player would discover one fragment (perhaps having something to do with the MMQ itself) of the journal entire. Only just before completion of the entire TMQ would the player finally grasp the whole thing.

If this idea flies, consider also giving a small fragment, perhaps part of what you've already written, to the player near the very beginning of the TMQ. This fragment would not immediately point to Tharn or his heir, but it would be an intriguing, tantalizing piece of the puzzle to start out with. I have no idea how to work this in prior to completing a provincial main quest, but it's something to keep in mind. Just my two cents.
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Post by Earl »

Father oversaw the reconstruction of the Numidium, thought destroyed near the opening of the Third Era. Of course, he didn't live to see the thing made whole; it wasn't completed until nearly a year after his tenure as "Emperor" came to an end, and during his false reign he could not continue directing that project without arousing suspicions. Still, he learned much of the workings of the golem during his supposed retirement -- a measure that Uriel suggested, to keep the matter of the reconstruction from being whispered throughout the palace -- while Ria Silmane took over much of his other duties.

It was a gigantic thing, and while some have fashioned it monstrous, it also has a kind of beauty about it. A raw, undirected vitality that seems to put a charge into the air, making all things around it vibrant, surreal. An illusion of the mind, I am well aware, but one cannot escape the feeling that the lifeless husk exudes a certain quality. Perhaps it is the knowledge of the power it houses, or mayhap it is an effect of the massive size of the thing.

That aside, those feelings and illusions evoked by the fantastic golem, horror and hope and dark desire... Those who would call it monstrous are still incorrect. The actual physical appearence of the Brass God is quite masterful. The Dwemer were adept with metalwork, very nearly capable of a level of detail that even today would find equal among the crafthalls of Summurset or Orsinium. The Numidia quite literally represents the pinacle of Dwemeri culture. More than a brute container for the strength of a god, it is a work of art unique unto itself. The thing is much too large to take in at once.

At any rate, working so closely on the Numidium was a boon to Father. The Blades that had been tasked to gather the pieces were by and large ignorant of the principles behind the Brass God. Without Father, what they would have constructed would have been little different from a statue, useless even with totem and mantella. For the Numidium is not a ballista, not a simple, purely mechanical thing. Should its pieces be assembled with only a mind to the physical, the end product would be deeply flawed, of no use.

And yet Father let it be built whole, built properly. Perhaps he intended to use it while he posed as Emperor... to what end, I do not claim knowledge. Still, given the plans we've recovered, he made provisions for such a scenario as actually came to pass, not the ideal he likely would have imagined. In the great game Father played, it seems the Brass God was a piece that fit into every possibile strategy he could fashion. A piece too valueable to leave off the board.
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Post by Assassinace »

Looking good earl.
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Post by The Mad God »

Terrific work Earl. These are better than anything I imagined.

I agree that these journals should be released as Provincial Main Quests are completed.
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Morden
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Post by Morden »

Wow.. you certainly possess a gift when it comes to writing.
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Post by Anonymous »

Morden wrote:Wow.. you certainly possess a gift when it comes to writing.
Ditto. These things definitely have to be worked into the TMQ as a major plot element thereof. Noticed a couple spelling errors, but they didn't detract from the continuing story with which you seem to enthrall us, Earl. :D
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