The Ebony Carriage

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:23 pm

I've decided I'm going to give the Ebony Carriage a shot. I'll model it in my spare time this week. But before I start I have a few questions.

A) What should it look like? What style of carriage? Is there any concept art, or even a descriptions of it? Simple or Ornate? I'll include two pictures of carriages I've found.

B) Scale, how big it should be, how many people it can fit, etc.

C) Poly restrictions? I guess it would be a static mesh (though now that there is a mod that adds horses, we could have it animated and horse-drawn.) But I'm guessing anywhere under 10,000 - 9,000 is good, correct?

Any details on the ebony carriage/ideas on how it should look would be greatly appreciated.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:57 am

All right well here's what I got done tonight. Keep in mind that this is a draft, and that these textures are just here to give an idea of the basic feel of the carriage. Right now, it clocks in at around 1500 faces, though it's going to get a little bigger. Also, that's with the doors seperate (each door is around 250 faces) because I'm not sure how doors work on a mesh like this in Morrowind.

I decided on a black ebony/gold trim look, similar to the ebony armour in game. The front of the carriage has two ebony horses supporting a seat where the driver sits. Each door has a golden horse on it, with the upper hooves acting as the handles. I'm pleased with how the horses turned out, though I'll put more effort into smoothing them out more tomorrow.

I'm not happy with the wheels, but I was undecided on whether a carriage made of ebony should be supported on wheels with spokes, or big round slabs of ebony. And I have a big empty space at the back that needs to be filled (was thinking that it would be a bench for armoured escourts or something, but I haven't decided.) I will also redo the entire "carriage" (the part people sit in) because I'm not sure I like the shape. I need input!

Input, input, input. Constructive criticism would be great, because I know I need to change a lot at this point! Thanks everyone, hope you enjoy.

Garinator · Post by **Garinator** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:14 pm

i like the pre alpha xcept the wheels which look unatrual.
apart from that i hope u get it finished soon so we can get some ingame pics 8)

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:18 pm

I've got an idea for the wheels but it's 4 am and I'm pooped! I'll get some more work done tomorrow... err... later today.

Violent_J · Post by **Violent_J** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:22 pm

I would make some wooden wheels with ebony alloy!

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:42 pm

it looks magnificent

Spider · Post by **Spider** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:57 pm

That is looking slick! If you like, I have two suggestions that might help imrove your great model.
First: You might add a railing to the back platform, as well as a step to climb up on it and a bench resting against the cabin.
Second: (You may already have this planned) A carriage should have a hitch (not sure if that's the proper term), it'll be a 'T' shaped bar attached to the front axle/suspension to which a team of horses is attached to the other end.
Keep it up, I look forward to seeing how your carriage turns out.

BalinMinister · Post by **BalinMinister** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:53 pm

Oh and perhaps im just ignorant but i think its kinda hard to tell which side is the front...so when you are finishing it...just perhaps make an indication like the other carriage has

Very excellent...i loook forward to riding/owing them in the near future

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:56 pm

I think the side with the horses and drivers seat is the front

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:35 pm

these are excellent, as usual

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:37 pm

It looks like rock carriage but definatly not ebony. Needs a bit of retexturing.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:49 pm

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:03 pm

1) Egghhh. Why I shouldn't POINT OUT someones imperfections ? It's called criticism. Constructive one.
2) I never was and never will be a pessimist
3) I just pointed out that it looks like tock, not ebony. I was not sayin that he must change the texture right now.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:05 pm

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 pm

very good, except it currently cannot fit with lore - There are no horses in morrowind.
Try replacing them with guars or kagouti or something, and this model will be almost completely set (only other thing it needs is better textures and maybe better-looking wheels).

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:16 pm

sirwootalot123 wrote:very good, except it currently cannot fit with lore - There are no horses in morrowind.
Try replacing them with guars or kagouti or something, and this model will be almost completely set (only other thing it needs is better textures and maybe better-looking wheels).

There ARE Horses in Morrowind. In kitchens for example... Plus there were some in "Real Barenziah"
@Stumpy
I bow before you, native english speaker.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:31 pm

I don't see why anyone is saying anything about the textures.

Keep in mind that this is a draft, and that these textures are just here to give an idea of the basic feel of the carriage

He wrote this in bold and italic text. It is blatantly obvious to me that he wants to get the form of the model straight before he starts messing with textures. It's an excellent model, let him finish it before texture criticism.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:43 pm

I say nothing about the model. It's really good (exept the wheels which need a bit of work). Plus I need to learn reading the first post...

My fault.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:39 pm

sirwootalot123 wrote:very good, except it currently cannot fit with lore - There are no horses in morrowind.
Try replacing them with guars or kagouti or something, and this model will be almost completely set (only other thing it needs is better textures and maybe better-looking wheels).

I thought that because the horses were in other games/all over Tamriel, it'd be all right to throw them in here. If it doesn't work with the Morrowind lore, however, I will change it to Guars.

And yes, the textures were just tossed on there. I've got an idea for the wheels and I will add a hitch.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone!

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:06 pm

The original ebony carriege from The real barenziah was pulled by horses. (This was before Beth decided on no horses). However that being said it was an imperial charriot and therefore the horses may have died very shortly after. Therefore it would most likely have horses on the charriot itself but depending on where it is added and the story around it horses or guar may be added but either way if it's in morrowind an explanation by someone would go well with it if it's in use.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:16 am

Assassinace wrote:The original ebony carriege from The real barenziah was pulled by horses. (This was before Beth decided on no horses). However that being said it was an imperial charriot and therefore the horses may have died very shortly after. Therefore it would most likely have horses on the charriot itself but depending on where it is added and the story around it horses or guar may be added but either way if it's in morrowind an explanation by someone would go well with it if it's in use.

That's what I thought originally (Barenziah, horses, Imperial, etc,) but if it does really go against the lore, I will change it. I'm going to work on fixing the wheels first, until someone decides what to do.

I also have to ask if we want this to be a static object, or will it move? Is there any plan for it either way?

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:28 am

oh and btw, 9000polys is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad try 900 for tops. really really highpoly buildings are like 1000

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:48 am

haplo12345 wrote:oh and btw, 9000polys is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad try 900 for tops. really really highpoly buildings are like 1000

Oh, I thought that incredibly unique, one-time-only features could be as high as 9000. I won't get nearly that high.

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:20 am

yeah, i dont really know much about polycounts but I do know that 9000 is highly excessive for a "simple" model like a carriage, even if that carriage is special. I reccomend making it un-enterable and having the interior of it indescribably simple to deal with this. Also, the back wheels should be directly underneath the "cabin" to make it easier to steer (and possibly lower poly).

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:38 am

sirwootalot123 wrote:yeah, i dont really know much about polycounts but I do know that 9000 is highly excessive for a "simple" model like a carriage, even if that carriage is special. I reccomend making it un-enterable and having the interior of it indescribably simple to deal with this. Also, the back wheels should be directly underneath the "cabin" to make it easier to steer (and possibly lower poly).

I know 9,000 is excessive, I won't be going over that. I just thought that was the standard.

Anyways I'm back and I have time to work on it now so I've built some different wheels, and I've taken sirwoot's suggestion and put 4 smaller wheels right underneath the cabin. The doors are locked shut, and there are curtains over the windows, so there is no mesh inside, reducing the polycount somewhat.

I've built a quick hitch, but I wasn't sure about the actual workings of a real, 4 horse/guar hitch, so I just built a quick crappy one. I'm working on changing the horses to Guars now (I'll keep the mesh for the rearing horse if anyone ever needs it.)

Remember that these textures are just really quick shoddy ones, because I'm not finished the mesh.

It clocks in at just under 1,600 faces. The Guars might make it a bit bigger, I'll see what I can do.

Any thoughts on if I should change the cabin, or what needs to be done with it? And are the new wheels better?

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:48 am

Ok, the Guars are done. If anyone has any comments or concerns, voice them now please, or else I'll go on and attempt to texture this beast.

My only concern is that the doors look a little bare just below the windows, the guars are much shorter than the rearing horses. Should I just leave it like that, or put something there? Handles? A house symbol?

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:10 am

Yes, put handels there. It will look much more better with them IMO.

Violent_J · Post by **Violent_J** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:36 am

Wow looks really good now! but put a box on the back of the carriage i think that would look nice.!

Spider · Post by **Spider** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:26 pm

This is really cool looking eyeball! I wouldn't mind seeing the rear wheels on the outside of the carriage though, the narrow wheelbase makes it very easy to tip over, but great job and all the same it looks awsome.

It's probably too late to mention this now, but I think that the reason that horses cannont survive on Morrowind is because the ash from Red Mountain does terrible things to their guts. That & they are a Dark Elf delicacy. I don't remember where the ebony carriage scene took place in the book, but if it's on the mainland it would be reasonable to believe that a horse could survive for a longer period due to the relatively long distance of Red Mountain.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:42 pm

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression it needed guars on it. It (at least as far as the one out of the book) is concerned should have horses. As originally it was from an imperial area and was driven by horses. However now it is unknown if there would be horses or not but that doesn't change what it was originally.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:33 pm

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:08 am

The guar one can be a dunmer carrage, and when we hit cyrodill we can use the horse one.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:11 am

IMO there shouldn't be too many ebony carriages. Possibly retecture the guar one to a different metal or wood and keep the ebony texture for the horse one.

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:41 am

Well, if he kept the textures like that i believe we would have to ban him

. Of course the ones there are just placeholers, ace; im sure that when he adds the REAL textures he can make the different versions.

Yinnie · Post by **Yinnie** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:58 am

Poor guars. Heavy burden. Ouch.

Looks purdy though. But I get bowled over by purdy things easily......
Maybe make a few things there (the parts) out of ebony, not the whole thing..... especially not the roof.. if its faulty and it falls on one's head? Again, ouch. The sides? Double Ouch.

But its purdy... I like the horsies version.
And yeah, can't wait to see it with new textures. Maybe not call it Ebony Carriage but just simply 'Carriage'? With Ebony decorations?

Its purdy...

Really is...

I want one

Yinnie.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:13 am

I really liked the one with horses more. It should have horses on it. Really. Yes, it'll be guar-driven. But with horses. Horsies !!!

vorrheis · Post by **vorrheis** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:20 pm

I think that the guars on the side should be removed. That will significantly drop the poly count. If you make the doors flat with their own specific texture, you can put guars or horses and make them look like gold inlay or mosaic. That way, they doors can have a variety of available symbols. That will be useful when we get to Cryodil.
The whole thing could be re-skinned with wood to make normal carriages when we get to provinces with horses.
I love the spokes on the wheels, but I would increase the number of sides for the wheels. At the moment, they look like they would make a bumpy ride. I would also strech the cabin to be longer, like turn of the century carriages.
There isn't any reason to have any interior faces for the cabin, so I would remove them all. OR I would make a 'convertible' version with the top down, as the interior is nice, and waste not want not.
I know that this is a unique piece for Morrowind, but if you make two cabin types and replacable door textures, we could have a wide variety of carriages when we need them.
To keep the ebony carriage as a unique mesh, I would also add more carvings, such as horse or dragon heads on the corners of the cabin roof. We can always remove the statue pieces for common carriages.

Vorrheis

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:44 am

vorrheis wrote:I think that the guars on the side should be removed. That will significantly drop the poly count. If you make the doors flat with their own specific texture, you can put guars or horses and make them look like gold inlay or mosaic. That way, they doors can have a variety of available symbols. That will be useful when we get to Cryodil.
The whole thing could be re-skinned with wood to make normal carriages when we get to provinces with horses.

I like these ideas, but if it comes to it I can just rebuild lower-detail "common" carriages for the rest of the world. There were many potential carriage designs, so if it's required I can just build various new ones.

I love the spokes on the wheels, but I would increase the number of sides for the wheels. At the moment, they look like they would make a bumpy ride.

I agree completely, I am just looking for a way to cheat the polycount with the round faces. I think I've got it figured out.

I would also strech the cabin to be longer, like turn of the century carriages.

I've built a larger cabin that might work, I'll post it as soon as I get everything figured out.

There isn't any reason to have any interior faces for the cabin, so I would remove them all. OR I would make a 'convertible' version with the top down, as the interior is nice, and waste not want not.

I don't know if this style of carriage would work convertible style, but I was planning on building a smaller, more common two horse/guar carriage that is open-topped.

To keep the ebony carriage as a unique mesh, I would also add more carvings, such as horse or dragon heads on the corners of the cabin roof. We can always remove the statue pieces for common carriages.

Vorrheis

I'm just curious, do you mean carvings that "jut out" at each corner? I considered doing a Kagouti head at each corner because it looks imposing, but I felt that it might make the polycount a little crazy. Would it be worth doing that?

Thank you for your suggestions, everyone.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:26 am

I don't know if it was just me, but for the past 2 days I couldn't access the Tamriel Rebuilt page or forum.

Anyways, over the past two days, while waiting for the page to come out of hiding, I built 2 new carriages, and made some of the modifications that vorrheis suggested. So, here's the run down.

The green one is a small, one-horse/guar carriage with a seat big enough for two people. In the back is a little area to put goods (picnic baskets, blankets, etc.)

The blue one is a stagecoach. It's a two-horse/guar carriage with a seat for a driver at the front, then two benches and stairs in the back for a total of 6-8 passengers, depending on how cramped they want to be. There are two hanging lanterns, and a "fare box" for the passengers to drop off their money. There is also a canopy over the top of it to cover it in the rain.

The poorly textured one is the newest revision of the Ebony Carriage. The cabin is much larger now. I liked vorrheis' idea of carvings on the corners (though I assumed he meant something jutting out.) I didn't want to add horses/dragons because they didn't seem to fit in the lore, so I made the corners Kagouti heads. I'm not sure if they work or not, so I can easily remove them.

Violent_J · Post by **Violent_J** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:52 am

Really good work! but for me the carriage in the middle looks a bit to modern but i think this will cahnge when there are textures on it!