Dwemeris

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:29 pm

We've got one small tiny prob. We have some books written in dwemeris. BUT we don't have enough Dwemeri script letters and glyphs are not translated yet. So HOW we are going to translate them into Dwemeris ? Maybe just think out our own Dwemeri glyphs meaning and write a book for translating the other book by player ? NPCs will still be able to translate books using "Hanging Gardens..." though...

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:30 pm

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:59 pm

The point he's making Stumpy is, we don't know what most of the Dwemer letters mean, so we can't do that unless we decide to assign letters to them (which isn't breaking lore, but it's certainly bending it). Until which point we cannot add books in dwemeris, or we'd be writing nonsense. Personally I think this issue needs to be addressed, we either A: Need to assign letters to the rest of the Dwemer characters, or B: ask Bethesda if they've done so, and if so, if they could show them to us.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:01 am

Could be handled as in Beth made material (ie. Egg of Time, ect).

-Starcrunch

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:03 am

In Bethesda made Dwemer books the text is a tga file, however they obviously know what it means, and we don't, but we can translate some of it. If we were to do that, ours would be nothing but gobbledygook, so if someone did eventually figure out the whole dwemer language (maybe from oblivion?) our books would be full of nonsense.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:46 am

As far as I know, the Beth Dwemer books are nonsense. So to write additional nonsense is a "no harm no foul" kind of thing.

If someone magically cracks the Dwemer language, and they are kind enough to share with the class, we can go back through TR Dwemer books and 'fix' them. Until such a time, they might as well be nonsense.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:50 pm

Actually Beth Dwemer books are NOT nonsense. I was deeply researching this subject with Darth_Blade, we have decyphered the language a few times but it was all wrong. Wormgod was kind enough to give some hints one of which was that Dwemeris DO have meaning. Plus TR Dwemer books DO have meaning too. We just need to figure out the way on how to write them in Dwemeris...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:08 pm

You'd think they'd be nice enough to tell us how to decipher it so we can write our own books :/

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:02 pm

No comments... They will not tell us it. I'm 101% sure.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:34 pm

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:42 pm

I doubt you will find it. Beth is not THAT dumb.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:09 pm

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:17 pm

We already know that Stumpy. It's bookart from DM and EoT.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:50 pm

Perhaps a small step to decipher is it looking at combination of letters that are often used in names of Dwemer ruins, Dwemer names and other known Dwemer words (for example Nch at the start of a word). Then look whether a lot of the words in Dwemer ruins start or end with certain combinations and this way decipher a few letters at least. The way you have perhaps 5,6 runes translated and from there you can get on with deciphering a few more. I doubt we can decipher the whole alphabet this way, but a few runes should be possible.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:54 pm

Man, I tried EVERY possible way. We even tortured MK to the point where he told that Dwemeris originates from Braille. But it is NOT Braille. It is something DIFFERENT. And EXTREMLY hard to decypher.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:01 pm

I've just lended my Morrowind CDs to my brother so I can't get the files. Can somone post them on the forum or PM them to so I can take a look. I don't think I can do anything with them at all, but I'm just curious.

[Edit] Forget it, I found the files. It does show some similarities to braille though. If you connect the points of braille with lines that is. Some letters do not show similarities though. On top of that, I don't think they would have kept the letters the same as their braille 'equivalent', but it might be of some help.[/Edit]

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:53 am

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:53 am

Here is the computer launguage for Dwemeris. IT lets you type in Dwemer (I dont know how many of you do have it, so I have put it up for benifet for all)

I also have daedric But i am not sure if you need it, because it is off topic. though if requested I will post up the file. This is incomplete but it will give you an idea.

EDIT: Sorry people I cant up load it onto the forums, I might have to make another topic or find the website I got it from again.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 am

1) Dongles website. Dwemeri script (not glyphs) font.
2) Script letter 'f' was a gift from the devs. I think that either letter 'f' itself or number 5 is a key.
3) I'm writing a program (it's coming rather slow but it's coming) which will help you to translate those texts.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:02 am

Ok I got the website its
[url]http://www.deffeyes.com/morrowind/fonts.html[/url]

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:49 am

I noticed these striking similarities between glyphs and script. I assume more people (or actually everyone who has worked on it) have noticed these, and I suspect these symbols are the same, yet in glyphs instead of written symbols.

[img]http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/Vegor/Glyphs.jpg[/img]

Now, more interesting, I couldn't find any corresponding glyph for the letters M and N in the Dwemer script, which are these:
[img]http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/Vegor/MNGlyph.jpg[/img]

This fuels my theory that the Dwemer have glyphs for sounds like "Nch" and "Mz" instead of these letters as single one. These syllables are so often used in names of Dwemer ruins that I suspect they might be just one symbol in the Dwemer glyph alphabet. Then again, they might mean something that has to do with cities and therefor be so common in ruin names (like Ruhn and Tel in Dunmer city names).

Or perhaps I wasn't looking good enough to find a corresponding glyph. But since there are 27 known glyphs and only 15 known script symbols and the other ones were quite obvious, it does suggest there really is no corresponding one. On the other hand, I couldn't find a corresponding glyph for D,F and G as well so it's not really possible to draw the conclusion.

I'm doing some more research in the use of the glyphs in certain parts of words and in the frequency in which certain glyphs are used. I am also looking into certain common glyph combinations. I'm quite certain that I can not crack this, but it's still interesting to try.

If anyone knows any site where all Dwemer ruin names are summarized or all other known Dwemer words, I would be grateful. This would help a lot in trying to understand what the Dwemer books say.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:55 am

a) http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerLanguage.html
b) I HIGHLY recommend you to visit Dwemer Language threads on new and old ES forums. They have a lot of info and possible translations.
3) Tnx for doing the chart. Can be helpful.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:58 am

I've read a few but a lot of them don't seem to know what they're looking for. I'll take another look at them. And thanks a lot for the site.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:12 am

[url=http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1817343&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=14&vc=1]Numero uno[/url]
[url=http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2950482&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=6&vc=1]Numero Duo[/url]
[url=http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=954&st=0]Number three

[/url]

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:29 am

Ah I see, so the main focus would be to get The Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics deciphered by throwing the words around and reordering them so they can be read. With only a handful of glyphs known that's going to be a very tiring effort. I'll take another good look at them.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:02 am

This may be a long shot but.... If you print out a page of one of the dwemer books and scan it into your computer. Some scanners might read it as a picture but others might read it as text. I will test this theory now. I shall let you know of my results soon.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:06 am

Erm.... Only when there's a font which it recognizes. And the font is what we're trying to figure out, so it won't recognize anything at all. Other than the image of course.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:49 am

^ Damnation your right. After it failed, I tried manually translating it using the book dwemer as a base and all I got was a string of random letterings. The plot thickens... Well either that or I translated it wrong and the most logical explanation is the words are still in Dwemer, not the writing but in the launguage form. This get randomer and randomer. This could mean beth actually created the dwemer language. ?????

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:33 pm

I'm sure you've noticed that vowels in Dwemer script have a similar look, especially I and E being mirror images.

So I think the glyphs that are similar might be vowels -- x13/16, x14/15, with x19 being the odd man out.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:33 pm

We think that books are not translated into English. Wormgod in one way or another confirmed it. At least I think it was a confirmation.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:05 pm

That's most probably the case. That's why we need to know as much Dwemer words as possible so we can take a good look how Dwemer syllables are composed and which ones are usually in the front and end of a word. This way we can try to find a way to decipher the Dwemer books, by looking at these combinations of glyphs and ordering the books' words in a correct fashion (since they are probably mixed up and in some kind of odd system). The main problem remains, however, that the letters most used in Dwemer words are the ones that are still unknown - like (N)ch, Mz and Th. This makes the ordering nearly impossible.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:30 pm

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:46 pm

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:13 am

Yes, Maybe it is Different to our language. I will check it for references.

EDIT: Here is some of the translation from divine metaphysics using StumpytheGuar's script. THis is the first page of the pages posted in Stumpys earlier post.

__dl i_sa_d_n_ _e_
_an_ndf adig gln_
_ora_ sg ra_emao_
ed_f ___i__ n__my _
_gal a__ a _ rvf_ a
__ ____w _g___ __
nfsogi ay __dl i_s
__ amaye_g_ e fs wa_
_l w_g_ta moa_d yi
_ er__f g_ _ aew
mn_ a_d_n_ _e_ _fgd
i__l_ogse g i_o_rn
a_re_ _vlad y__i_
f_gaw_ gavi_we__ _

Does that make sense to anyone? Underscores are for the missing letters.

Here is also some of the Complete Translated words.
Adig, nfsogi, yi.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:30 am

Hey, I am going to e-mail Besthesda for a translation, do any of you have an address for them?

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:51 am

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:58 am

*sigh* We are back to square one again.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:22 am

Black Stallion wrote:Hey, I am going to e-mail Besthesda for a translation, do any of you have an address for them?

STOP!!!

I suppose there's no preventing you from e-mailing Bethesda, but whatever you do, *please* do not mention TR in any phrase in that e-mail (unless you have the Core's permission.)

Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh. We've had several cases of TR's name being used when it shouldn't have, and I doubt it's an experience the Core would care to repeat.

Thanks

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:37 am

Ppl you make me laugh. No really. E-mail Beth, transalting it letter by letter etc. Please, I beg you, before u start running in circles visit those links I posted. That way you will find out what was already made.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:10 pm

Once again Stalkers Logic defeats all.