Lich Metamorphosis

[Anonymous]

While i was thinking of a book to write, i started to wonder about making the journal of a lich. Then, i started chating with stumpy, and we found many interesting points. And it said on the upper creature guide here: http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3200 that liches would be a transphormation for a PC. I am not sure if this has been discussed but here my idea goes. If this were to be allowed, we would first need to gather lore and ideas. me and stumpy thought of: you must be a powerdul necromancer. then, the rituals that are needed. the most important part. I read something about retaining your soul, but i thought it would be more like selling your sould. first things first. you will first get "the blessing of arkay" a wierd blessing that will weaken you. on the third day, you will start getting dreams telling you to go to a certain place to perform the ritual. you get to that place "probably a hidden necromancer place", and then the ritual begins. after a few praying moments to arkay, you drink a leathel poison that inflicts a mass amount of pain before slowly dying. you pass out, and your body is sent into Oblivion. I said it, Oblivion. There you go through Arkay and become one with him. the prossess gives you much arcane power and immortality, but stripts your flesh and gives you an aura of evil and cold. When you awaken, you are on an alter, and are greeted by a few of your new servants. Now, you are a souless worshipper of arkay. The prossess is iriversable. But, you are gifted with a massive amount of power. Both physical and magickal. I plan to make a book about this if it is granted. Thank u! And post your ideas please!


PS: Sorry if there is any lore issues.

EDIT: Not sure why i am putting a pole when it has already been discided.
And if it was you Storm_Crow that voted "no" do i have to remind you that i know were you live!

EDIT 2: There seems to be a mistake. Arkay is not the one the necromancers and other undead worship!

[Garriath]

I disagree. At this point we just don't know enough about liches to turn the player into one. It would require a buttload of scripting and a huge leap with lore- something that I don't think should be done. I already stated that Arkay is the complete opposite god for it; the Ritual of Arkay is a proper and permenent burial. If you want to play a lich, download the excellent Illuminated Order mod. Or I imagine something like that will be done when Morrowind is released. But we shouldn't try to include it in the Project. Far too risky, if you ask me, and too much effort for a point when the scripters are needed most.

Oh, and I followed the link. There wasn't anything stated that the PC would be allowed to become a lich. Not to mention that most of that thread is very outdated.

[Stumpytheguar]

<edited to remove 'spam' content>

[Marauth Alaí-Raán]

There is no god for the undead, Arkay is the god of life and death and his followers are dedicated to destroying all the undead as they see them as an abomination. P.S. Arkay is an Aedra - they're not dark gods.

There is (since Daggerfall) the god of worms - Mannimarco, he is worshipped by the Sload and was the most powerful necromancer in the Illiac Bay region, the player helps him ascend to godhood by giving him the totem at the same time as the player gives the totem to five other people. Mannimarco's blessing presumably wouldn't be needed to become a Lich but certainly it wouldn't hurt.

I agree with others that this is a very far stretched idea and while not contradictory with lore it would require a huge amount of work not just to script it all but to provide all the custom dialogue and quests etc. that this would require - can't have dunmer villagers saying 'hello outlander, so lovely to see you!' when you're a skeletal abomination can you? LOL./>

[Uldar]

Have any of you seen The Illuminated Order plugin by LDones? It does exactly what you are suggesting, allows the player to become a lich. There is another one entitled Lichcraft, I am unsure of the author but I can look it up if necessary.

I am currently playing through both in an effort to decide which I like better. Lichcraft involves no questing, only a book in the hidden library of Vivec (the city, not the God) which has a recipe for a lich potion and information on a making a phylactery (soul gem to hold the PC's soul after you become a lich). You need to gather the necessary ingredients for both the potion and the phylactery. The potion ingredients have you searching Mournhold and Solsthiem, while most of the requirements for the phylactery can be bought. You make the potion, a skilled craftsman makes the phylactery. The script for making the potion checks your alchemy stats and if you don't score high enough the potion is bad. There is no indication that the potion is bad until you use it (unless you use the full help cheat to see the script on the potion). My character with a level 60+ alchemy failed several times. The enchantment part is a little weak, you need to enchant both the vial for the potion and the phylactery but there appears to be no check for a high skill involved here (I may have missed it). Once both the potion and phylactery are made you only need to wait until midnight put on the phylactery, drink the potion and die. If you failed you stay dead, if you succeeded you awake as a lich inside your phylactery.
You place the phylactery somewhere in the gameworld (don't carry it) and anytime your health drops low enough you are teleported to your phylactery. When you exit the phylactery you are in whatever cell you left it in.

I have not completed Illuminated order yet, so I am not sure how you become a lich through this, but there are something like twenty quests invovled. Most of it works well with lore, but the placement of some of the doors and buildings reflect poor choices (the worst (IMO) being a tower from Mournhold on Red Mountain.) And the real clincher in ruining this quest line for me was that the founder of the Order is an English pirate turned cultist from the 1800s who dies in a storm at sea only to awake washed up on the shores of Ebonheart.

Judging by the scripts whoever wrote Lichcraft, probably played through Illuminated Order and decided to make it possible to become a lich without including these lore breaking issues. The skeleton model used to replace the Player is the same. The script used to allow you to disguise yourself as your pre-lich form is the same.

Upon completion of Illumniated Order it was my intent to write a new quest line (with reworked scripts) that takes the best ideas of both of these and incorporate them into a new quest line. This will also include a revised version of Mephisto's Tome of Ancient Knowledge (which is already done).

As liches are already a part of the ES universe I see no lore issues in having a PC become one. All we really need to do is either find out what Bethesda feels are the requirements of becoming a lich, or decide on them ourselves. There must be some lore surrounding the King of Worms that might allude to Bethesda's views on this. If not, we could always reference other fantasy sources and find a method that doesn't bend or break TES lore. I think Lichcraft is pretty close in its methods, but needs some tweaking in the phylactery department.

If we are to incorporate the PC becoming a lich into TR, I will gladly volunteer to write the quests and the scripts. Though I would like someone to recreate/rework the skeleton mesh as it has a few issues I'd like resovled. I do work in 3D modeling but my software does not export to NIF format.

[Kasan Moor]

Lichcraft is made by Venombyte. Here is his readme. He actually gives credit to LDones and Charles J. Devito. And I think it should be incorporated in TR, and if it not, it has to be a bolt-on. But only if it is done as Uldar Gerzae says.

*****************************************************************
The Elder Scrolls III
MORROWIND:
LichCraft Plug-in
V 1.0
by VenomByte
(Original work on liches by Charles J. Devito and LDones)
*****************************************************************

Contents:
1. Installation
2. Playing the Plug-in
3. Release History/Mod info
4. Known bugs
5. Credits
6. Contact
7. Other notes

*****************************************************************
1. INSTALLING THE PLUGIN
*****************************************************************

To install the plug-in, unzip the files into the Morrowind/Data Files directory.
This mod requires both Tribunal and Bloodmoon to be installed.

*****************************************************************
2. PLAYING THE PLUGIN
*****************************************************************

From the Morrowind Launcher, select Data Files and check the box next to the "Lichcraft.esp" file.

This plugin was designed as an alternative, expanded take on the Lich experience originally offered by Illimunated Order.
It is a standalone plugin.

To start your adventure, look in the secret library of Vivec for a certain
book on Necromancy...

*****************************************************************
3. Release History/Mod info
*****************************************************************

v1.0 - public release!
FOllow a series of tasks and undergo the ritual necessary to become a Lich, a powerful magicka-weilding undead.

Lich features include:
- level-based bonuses to magicka related skills and attributes
- create your own spells of almost unlimited power
- a new way of creating your own enchantments. 100% sucessful.... but not without it's price
- retreat to your phylactery when mortally wounded, and live to fight another day
- disguise your true form to interact with the world as normal.... but you can't sustain this for long
- various other bonuses and penalties

Be warned however: Becoming a lich is a physically draining and irreversable process.


If you're already a lich via Illuminated Order, you'll need instead to type
'startscript, vn_ordercheck'
This will also add a phlyactery to your inventory.

*****************************************************************
4. Known bugs
*****************************************************************

You'll get a warning about a spell not being found if Illuminated Order isn't installed. Ignore this,
it will make no difference. It's purely a compatability fix.

The phylactery only works in cells from Morrowind, Tribunal or Bloodmoon.
Don't drop it in cells from other mods.


*****************************************************************
5. Credits
*****************************************************************

Charles J. Devito (rhe1@gte.net) / LDones (ldones@hiredgoons.net)
- for the original Lich ideas taken from Illuminated Order. AS well as all their scripts and models
(one of the scripts was originally by Mephisto I believe ) that I've either pilfered or edited.

GhanBuriGhan
- for Morrowind Scripting for Dummies.
Essential reference, I wouldn't attempt a mod without it these days.

TheOneWriath
- for all the lore on liches, without which this mod wouldn't be what it is.

Cj Campbell
- for hosting the mod on www.brimd.com/lichcraft

MarcusX
- for the skeleton crown models

tsbasilisk, reffa, and everyone wlso who is/was involved in testing or brainstorming on this mod.
You know who you are!

*****************************************************************
6. Contact
*****************************************************************

To contact me for whatever reason (suggestions, bugs, etc) email:

adesignforlife@gmail.com

or message me ('VenomByte') on the ES forums.


*****************************************************************
7. Other notes
*****************************************************************

See the Lich Crown? There's rather more to it than meets the eye.

[Anonymous]

well, anyhow, I want to make a book. and becoming a lich is no worse then scripting for were creatures. onlythat were creatures u have to put in a little time thing that tells when the PC transphorms. and since we are adding those, why not add this?

Far fetched is a little far fetched if you know what I mean. But anyhow, for the moment i want to make a book. and i want to now about all the ideas.

[Dexter]

I suppose that writing a book wouldn't be a bad idea. Write it from the perspective of a psychopathic, driven necromancer. Make him sound like he is in far over his head. The book should not describe him being sucessful. It would be a lot more interesting (and less likely to break lore) if he failed miserably.

[Assassinace]

I would suggest writing several diaries/rantings from necromancers that are all wrong but will start pointing to the whereabouts of the king of worms journal. (Basically the journals in part all point to idea's, cities, and people in common and when the player investigates the real quest starts). And if we really decide to add liches it can be the gateway and if not it can be a bit of a quest that does point to some stuff but just not being a lich. At any rate it should make for some interesting reading.

[Psyborg]

Failed miserably? (puts on airs) Psssshhhaaaaw. Overyeeeeeuuuwwwwwzzzzed. (takes off airs, because they are hard to type with on)

No, I wouldn't have him fail miserably. Like my airs said, that's overused. I think it would be more entertaining (and just as non lore breaking) if it just stopped; if the journal quit after his FINAL EXPIRIMENT or whatnot. A kind of thought inspiring thing. I dunno'.

[Anonymous]

Yes. A cliff hanger. That would be much more appropriate then failing miserably. Yes, I will make it. And I will make it as detailed and well written as I can. As long as it is granted. And leaving a PC on a cliff hanger would probably make them want to go on a search for the Necromancer. And if the Lich is made a playably Metamorphosis, then when you ffind the Necromancer, or better yet the Lich, he tells you how to become a lich. But this may be lore poison, so I will stick with the Journal for now.

[Uldar]

You wish to become a lich? It's very easy, my friend. Simply find the heart of a lich, combine it with the tongue of a dragon, and cook it with the flesh of a well-ridden horse. This combination is certain to make you undead.
- M'aiq the Liar


I definitely like the idea of the story/journal not having a conclusion. It seems to me that if he failed you most likely wouldn't know anyway, as to fail in the attempt to becoming a lich would be death. Likewise to succeed is death, only he would awaken as a lich, and probably not be to interested in writng in his journal, what with all his new abilities to explore.

I am not sure if I would have the Necromancer/Lich as a character you could find, I somehow doubt a lich would willing give away the secrets to his power. Instead, I would have leads in his journal (as well as bits of misinformation, just to keep things interesting) which build up a sort of quest line for the player to embark upon as they gather the necessary information/ingredients for becoming a lich.

In the quest idea I've been cooking up, the Player was sent by Divath Fyr to aquire a lich's spell book (my modified version of Mephisto's Tome of Ancient Knowledge). One of the bits of treasure in the lich's lair is the lich's journal. I intended it to be a bit vague, have a description of where the (pre-lich) mage was without giving out place names. Include a list of ingredients but no information on how to properly mix them. All this was to be done to make the player have to work a little harder, making the experience a little more rewarding when they succeed (albiet more frustrating with each failure).

Of course, for this to be possible for the TR project we will need to get approval from the Lore Department. I cant see any real reason to be denied as Bethesda has included several liches in their releases: Grurn of Firemoth. Barilzar, Gedna Relvel, and the Profane Acolytes of Tribunal. There was also the draugr Aeslip in Blood Moon, though I'm not sure if he would be considered a lich.

Of all these the only ones we are given any kind of background on are; Barilzar, who was formerly a very powerful mage, and Aeslip, who was a necromancer. But with these two alone we are given enough to know that they are not merely powerful spellcasting undead (like Bone Lords), but were turned into liches. In fact Aeslip admits to turning himself into what he is in an effort to gain immortality.

Unfortunately I can find no reference to what the Profane Acolytes or Gedna Relvel were before they became liches. And of course, no information on how any of them became liches, though one of the lines of dialog in reference to Barilzar's Mazed Band states that it is suspected that the Band was resposible for his demise. There is still hope that something can be found on the King of Worms. He was a lich, wasn't he?

In any case, we will need to address many issues about becoming and the effects of being a lich, and try to keep them within the realm of lore. Some of the things I would like to see included are:

- The need to make a lich potion, probably several potions that need to be taken in a specific order.

- The need for a phlyactery, though I am not sure if it need be called that. It should be a very powerful soul gem, either from a very rare type of gemstone or one that the player needs to make by growing it or making it via alchemy. I would not have it be like the phlyactery of VenomByte's Lichcraft, as having to script in all the possible locations it could be left in would be an exceptionally daunting task. Instead I would have it be an amulet that the player is required to wear to maintain a connecton to their skeletal remains; to remove it is death. I would also have it be that upon the death of the lich the amulet would shatter releasing the soul of the lich, which would explain why the liches you kill in-game do not carry a phlyactery.

- The timing of the ritual should be very specific, something like: at midnight when both moons are full, or only on a specific day of the year.

- Failure to meet any of the requirements would result in death.

As far as post lichdom effects:

- Increased magicka

- Regeneration of health, possibly magicka

- The ability to diguise yourself. This I would handle similar to Lichcraft, where you cast the spell to assume your former guise, but the spell constantly drains your magicka. If your magicka runs out or you get hurt bad enough the spell is broken.

I am not sure what drawbacks to have, possibly have spellcasting also drain your health. Maybe the inablitity to enter temples or having the process of becoming a lich lower your stats/abilities/level?

As far as post lich quests and the like; there should be many attempts on the Players life - by adventurers, witch hunters, Ordinators, etc. I suppose there could be a sort of guild of liches, the main liches in Mournhold were surrounded by lesser liches which implies some sort of community.

Anybody else have any ideas?

[Kasan Moor]

I have. You say that you need to wear the phylactery all the time, and when you are killed, the phylactery is shattered. But that means that a lich isn't immortal. That means the only function of the phylactery is... nothing. Maybe use the same concept of the phylactery as VenomByte did, but then with a other interior for the phylactery. I mean, the phylactery is just a soulgem, so at the inside, it must look like a soulgem. But that would mean that you are impossible to kill, wich ruines the gameplay for some gamers. Also, I think that the disguise spell has to be made more easy. If you use it in lichcraft, you only have a few seconds. I think it must be possible to interact with people normally, otherwise, you won't be able to do anything anymore.

[Anonymous]

I truely don`t understand how to script, but here is what I think:

-I am not to sure how the Vampire thing works for MW, but could we not just do the same thing? Except that you would look like a lich and not a vampire. and about the phylactery. Yes, we need one. But I dont know why the other lich mod only worked in certain places and not in a global area. And the disguise spell would be good. But it would be only for a certain amount of time I hope. And I will go into reasearching on the liches. I anyone has anymore info, please post.

[Uldar]

How many immortal liches and vampires (let alone gods) have you killed? The phylactery holds and preserves the soul of a lich allowing it to stay within the realm of the mortals indefinitely. Only if the bond between the soul and the corpse remains unbroken can the the lich maintain this state of immortality.

Perhaps there could be the some ritual (carried out by other liches or servants) in which the phylactery could be transported to a new skeletal body (in the event that the current one has become too damaged). But I would still have it be very important that as a lich, you still have the potential of being killed, or we do risk ruining game play and probably breaking lore.

As far as the Disguise spell, I would have it be that the spells draining effects would be slow, and with the enhanced magicka gained in becoming a lich, one would be able to maintain the disguise for several hours. Though you would nee to avoid all combat and limit the number of spells you cast or you run the risk of breaking the spell early. Also should there be a counter spell, there was no way of removing the disguise in either Illuminated Order or Lichcraft?

Another issue that occurs to me is; How does a lich go from having the flesh of a mortal to the skeleton of a lich. Do we have a period of time where the body rots away on the lich, is the flesh burned away in the process of becoming a lich, or is there a period of time that the Player remains dead before rising as a lich? While having the body rotting away has some appeal, that would require considereable amounts of work in modeling, texturing, and scripting.

The idea of being dead for a while has some merit, but if you were in Morrowind you run the risk of your corpse being found and cremated. This might work if we go with the concept of a guild/community of liches. It could be that the other liches need to accept you into their ranks, they assist you in the ritual of becoming a lich, and protect your rotting coprse until you rise as a lich. If this is the case, then maybe dagoth_mishka's idea of finding the Necromancer/Lich who wrote the journal is the way to go, though I feel it makes becoming a lich a little too easy.

Otherwise we could go with the idea that the magics involved in the process of becoming a lich burn away the flesh. This to me makes becoming a lich more of a solitary thing. I like the idea of the mad wizard locked away in his tower performing the ritual alone. He drinks the potions, says the incantations, casts the necessary spells and then colapses, a writhing ball of flesh. Tendirls of smoke pour from his body, and suddenly he bursts into flames. After a time the smoke clears revealing a pile of bones on the floor. Slowly they begin to reasseble themselves until finally he rises, a new and powerful lich. Maniacal laughter fills the tower and echoes out across the land.

Perhaps a bit too dramatic, but you get the idea. Of course there are probably many more possible explanations as to how to become a lich. These are just a few of my ideas, and I am sure you probably have a few of your own, so lets here them.

[Stalker]

Liches and vampires are not immortal. They are undead. SO you can actually kill it...for the second time in his life\unlife.

[Lord_Gallant]

I have never seen any reference to a phylactory in Tamrielic lore. Liches are indeed made by a process which is voluntary, but nothing is known about this process. The phylactory is present in Dungeons & Dragons, but this is not necessarily (and probably isn't, unless you have found this explicitly in the lore) the case in Tamriel.

Why? The liches in D&D are rare, and rightly so, considering the vast amount of effort it takes to become one and how powerful you need to be. Phylactories cost millions of gold pieces, and not many people can even afford one. The liches in Tamriel are relatively common in certain areas and even form cults consisting of liches. Therefore, there is actually a lich population large enough to allow for that. If each of these liches needed to build a phylactory, exactly how rich are the denizens of Morrowind?

Also, the liches you kill in Morrowind do not come back (when did you see Gedna or Barlizar again?), so it is unlikely they have any means of coming back to life, including a phylactory.

The King of Worms (now the God of Worms), was not, I think, a lich. He was the leader of a necromancy cult however and had lots of liches and vampires under his command.

I think that becoming a lich would not be as fun as it sounds, since not much would change beyond infinite life span, which you have anyways due to being corprus infected.

[Negrodomous]

I wanna be a lich

[Anonymous]

Well, what about being a vampire? What does that add? It adds quests and such. And I agree with Lord Gallant about not having a phylactery. But being a lich would be like being a vampire. And it would be amazing if you were able to summon undead from fallen foes. Though summoning a servant would be like alchemy; when you fail, the ingredients are destroyed. And also, preparing corpses for summoning should be nescessary too. Like going through the procedures descripted in Corpse Preparation. And joining lich cults would be amazing to. It would be exactly like the Vampire world. Or resemble it in many ways. And adding a lot of Undead related powers or spells, like control undead, when you become a lich would make it much more interesting.

Also: Lichs are very common, but they are still quite strong. In tribunal, they are level 20. All of them. Except for the Famous ones which are stronger. So I am guessing that a PC would have to attain a certain level before becoming a lich. And the scripts involved would check if they have the right skill levels.

As to the effort of becoming a lich, I counted 18 liches, including the Famous ones, for the entire Bethesda work, so they are common, but not everywhere. So the effort should still be at a seemingly high level. And remember, it isn't the same as vampires. Lichs do not become lichs because they get infected with a disease. They choose to be a lich. So becoming one should still be somewhat of a challenge to the PC.

[Kasan Moor]

About the flesh and the burning etc., the liches in morrowind still wear rags of there old clothes and they have still a bit of their hair (barilzar).

I agree with Ulgar about the disguise spell, you must be able to substain it for several hours.

[Uldar]

Well, I'm stumped here. After searching through many different sources I can find absolutely no information on becoming a lich in Tamrielic Lore.

I did find evidence that the King of Worms (now the God of Worms) was not a Lich. This is based on his character from Daggerfall, in which there is flesh on his hands. I wouldn't exactly call this conclusive as Morgiah is depicted as a normal white human with red eyes, when according to lore she is the offspring of Symmacus and Barenziah, both full blooded Dunmer.

I also searched for info on the Underking, but the evidence for him being a lich is extremely sketchy, as well as his true identity. (Though the King of Worms says that he is Zurin Arctus in Daggerfall)

There is little hope of finding any lore surrounding the Camoran Usurper, who was believed to be a lich. And even if I could find anymore on him I doubt it would include anything about the process of becoming a lich. So, one more dead end.

I was also unable to confirm the nature of the Mantella. It is most likely a soul gem but does it contain the soul of the Underking (who may be the first Imperial Battle Mage, Zurin Arctus) or could it be the soul of King Wulfharth/Ysmir (assuming he is not the Underking). If it is the Underking's soul (which lore from Daggerfall points to) then I would argue that the Underking was a lich and the Mantella was his (unintentional) phylactery.

All this was done to try to keep phylacteries (though not necessarily so named) a part of being a lich.

Understand that I was not a D&D fan (read some of the books but didn't play the game). I am not trying to incorporate lore from that universe, but my understanding of liches is founded on that lore. My reasons for trying to implement phylacteries (in whatever form they take) has more to do with the principles involved in being a lich, than trying to maintain notions derived from D&D lore.

From what I know of liches, those who choose to become a lich do so for the purposes of power. This power is granted in the form of increased magical ability and immortality (meaning undying, not meaning unkillable).

The immortality aspect is a product of storing the soul in a way that prevents it from leaving the mortal plane (ie. a soul gem/phylactery). In my opinion, the soul gems of Tamrielic lore we are so familiar with would not serve the purposes of a would be lich, because, while they store souls for indefinite amounts of time, the souls imprisoned therein are in a state of absolute isolation. A lich's soul needs to occasionally interact with the world around it. Therefore the soul gem would need to be strong enough to maintain the soul but also have a weaker aspect that allows the soul to still have an influence on the surrounding world.

The lich's increased magicka is a product of two things, the first being their increased life span allows them to study longer and delve deeper into the mysteries surrounding magic. The second (and more profound) is by removing themselves from the trappings of a mortal body they become closer to (if not one with) the essence of magicka.

By this definition the lich is not the skeletal figure, but the soul in the phylactery. The lich uses their influence to use the skeletal remains as a body.

The best comparison I can come up with for this analogy is (unfortunately) from the lore of another fantasy universe. In Star Wars there is a cult known as the B'omarr Monks on the planet of Tatooine. They were the original denizens of Jabba's Palace (infact, you can see one in Return of the Jedi, just after C-3PO and R2-D2 enter the palace). The B'omarr Monks, in an effort to achieve absolute isolation for their meditations, had their brains removed and placed into jars. To maintain their brains they had the jars attached to spider-like droids, which provide them with sustenance and locomotion (probably meant to keep the Monks out of harms way rather than to provide a change of scenery as they recieve no input from the outside world whatsoever)

True, the Monks don't have control over the spider droids where liches do control their skeletal form, but the logic behind the Monks removing their brains parallels with the logic of a mage removing their soul. And I don't think it is to far of a stretch of the imagintion to find parallels between the spider droids and the skeletal remains, as they both provide a vehicle for their respective hosts.

In an earlier post to this thread, I suggested having the phylactery destroyed upon the destruction of the skeletal body of the lich. While my definition of a lich does not necessarily agree with this suggestion, I would still have it done this way for the sake of lore.

There are no phylacteries found on liches or in the game world. None of the liches (unique ones
particularily) return after you kill them. These things indicate that if phylacteries do exist in Tamriel they are either destroyed with the defeat of the lich, or hidden, which leaves the lich's soul entrapped with no body.

It could be argued that, if a lich were a member of a cult of liches, their phylactery would be kept by this cult and in the event of the lich's body being destroyed the cult provides a new one. The problem with this come down to scripting, in that all scripts stop functioning upon the players death. There would be no way to ressurect the player. True, you could have it so that if the player's health dropped to a certain level they would be transported back to the cults hideout, but to my experience this does not always work. If the player were to suffer damage in excess of this level they die, scripts stop, no ressurection.

So I would still have it that, if we agree upon some form of phylactery, it need to be worn to by the skeletal form of the lich to maintain control. If the skeleton is destroyed the bond between skeleton and lich is broken and the phylactery is shattered.

If, however, it is decided to forgo the whole phylactery thing, I would atleast like to have some form of explaination as to what happens to the soul of the mage when they become a lich. How do they maintain their existance? What binds their soul to the skeletal remains (and thus the mortal plane)?

[Stumpytheguar]

<edited to remove 'spam' content>

[Anonymous]

let the world be known that i am a lich

[Lord_Gallant]

Again, I stress that we should not jump to the conclusion of a phylactory. Liches in D&D use those, but lore from D&D and lore from Tamriel rarely match. I would suggest, if you are so bent on this idea, that you try to contact one of the BethSoft developers, like WormGod (he is most likely to make up new lore on fan demand), and ask him about lich transformations.

Perhaps they actually do use a phylactory, despite the reasons I've stated, but you can't make that kind of leap in the lore without some backing, and I can guarantee you that you won't find much lore on liches. You will find NO lore on phylactories, in fact, as far as my rather extensive knowledge of Tamriel lore can tell, the term "phylactory" is not mentioned in any Tamriel book or dialogue.

See what the devs have to say. It will probably be interesting and most likely inane, but it will conclude the issue if they respond.

@Exile, try not to spam. That was not a wise first post. You should make a post in the Tavern and introduce yourself like a polite guest.

[Stumpytheguar]

<edited to remove 'spam' content>

[Lord_Gallant]

True that. But when two blind men argue about what color the sky is, what other option is there but to ask someone who can see and hope they listen?

[Uldar]

OK, I'm game...

I will attempt to contact WormGod sometime tomorrow.
But before I do this I will check back here. The point in doing this is: If any of you have already made this attempt (regarding this topic), I do not want to question him about the same topic risking us becoming an annoyance.

So if you have already attempted to contact him, please post that you have done so, even if you haven't gotten a response.

If I see no such post by Noon (CST) of Nov 8 I will make my attempt.

Thanks... and wish me luck.

[Garriath]

I'd highly suggest we instead ask someone as prominent in the lore community as Gleb to ask WG. He's someone the devs are familiar with, and more likely to get a response. If you're also in such a position, Uldar, forgive my ignorance. But I do think we should PM Gleb to handle this.

[Kasan Moor]

Or Xan. He and WormGod are almost friends by the looks of it.

About the phylactery, there is a book from Ramond E. Feist (Anyone read it? They are all very good books.) that has a lich, and that one too, has a phylactery, wich needs to be destroyed to kill the lich.

[Uldar]

OK, That sounds like a better idea. I'll go with contacting Xan, as you said.
Thanks for intervening before I did something potentially stupid.

[Uldar]

Message sent.

Here is a copy of what I said, if you are interested:

Hello,

First off, I would like to take a moment to thank you for the work you have put into your website. I am working on the Tamriel Rebuilt project and frequently find I am referencing your site. It has proved to be an excellent and indispensable source for Tamrielic Lore. Thank You.

I have, however, come into a need for some information that seems to be missing from all lore. We are currently working on trying to implement the ability for the player to become a lich. While it is known that liches do exist in Tamriel, and that they are not merely some higher form of undead, but in fact the result of a Mage's transfiguration; what is not known is what the processes and requirements of this transfiguration are.

I have spent many hours digging through the information contained on your website, including following links from your site to other sources. My searches involved pursuing the histories of the Underking, the King of Worms, and the Camoran Usurper, among others. But the search has apparently been in vain as there is no information regarding the processes involved in becoming a lich.

If you could kindly guide me in the right direction towards acquiring this information, or if none exists, if you could, on our behalf, contact Mr. Gary Noonan, with whom you appear to be acquainted, and see if he might divulge such information. I, and all those currently working on this project, would be greatly appreciative.

Thank you, in advance, for your time and efforts

Uldar Gerzae

So now we wait...

[Garriath]

Just out of curiousity, did you get the Core's permission to use TR's name in that request?

[Anonymous]

I never new MY post would get this much attention. And above all, no flaming. Wow. This is going really well. I read all the posts about the lore and other things and have but one thing to add. In tribunal, I saw a lot of liches weilding a shield and a longsword. Now, if their physical strength was drained in the transphormation, why are they using a sword? Does this mean that the new body, which has no flesh on it, becomes stronger on the Transphormation? Oh, and by the way, Majra? Can I make a book about this once everything is settled down and finalised? And all lore is here? If so, thanks. Anyhow, back to the discussion.


If the PC were to become a lich, we would also have to consider the effects that this might have on the rest of Tamriel. When I was a vampire, I really didn't think everything was realistic. Per example: You talk to a commoner and there reaction is that they do not want to talk to you. Is there something wrong here? If I saw a vampire with white eyes and sharp teeth standing beside me, I would start running like all hell. And I think being a lich would be slightly worse because:

1- They are just as scary looking as vampires, to a normal person. But you can not mistake liches for actual living beings with actual flesh and an actual huminoid, rather living huminoid, face.
2- Because they are magickal and perhaps even more evil and malevolant then most (not all) vampires, would they not have some sort of aura of cold?

Thats my two reasons for them being more frightening then Vampires. And the Npc would only run away if you talked to him or her. Even though it would look rediculous to see some random Bosmer, running around wild through his one room house.

And I have done a bit of research and I think it would be more interesting to include more tales of liches and other undead in books and notes of tamriel.

[Negrodomous]

sorry for going off subject, but EXILE324, your avatar is huge, is that with in thew size limit?

[Uldar]

Well, here is Xan's reply:

Hey Uldar,

There is no instruction of how to become lich as far as I know. The one that probably well-thought is from a mod titled Illuminated Order, but this is unofficial. Other than that there is no official record.
Sorry.

~Xan

So we need to try a different approach. Shall we try Gleb?

Note: I finally finished Illuminated Order. I still like Lichcraft better. In Illuminated Order you have to get all of the Deadric artifacts (Azura's Star, Goldbrand, etc.,) and then sacrifice them in the ritual of becoming (thereby removing them from the game forever) The ritual consists exclusivley of having these items removed from your inventory, once done, you are a lich. Weak. Boring. Lichcraft was better. (To anyone who was playing through these, sorry for the spoilers.)

@ Garriath - Um, no, I didn't get permission. I wasn't aware of the need to do so. Is this bad? If so, I apologize.

@ dagoth_mishka - In both lich mods I have tried, the publics reaction is a little mixed. The guards will attack you on site (the product of your crime level being adjusted giving you a bounty of 8000 - something I didn't like and would change.) The public ignore you unless you talk to them, then they attack you. The disguise spell alters this so public reaction is almost the same as before you became a lich, they just have a lower disposition towards you.

In regards to the liches wielding weapons and shields. All the skeletal minions of Morrowind use them, why would a lich be any different. I would think they would be using blunt weapons as that is the most common weapon of a mage. But I suppose if you are going to live forever why not become a weapons master as well as a powerful spell slinger?

As far as the aura a lich is surrounded by; fear, and the stench of death. So yes the publics reaction to a undisguised lich should be more dramatic than that of a vampire.

I also agree that Morrowind's NPC reactions to a vampire character are lacking. In my opinion, a vampire should be able to interact with the public, and depending on the NPC's characteristics, they should have different reactions (ie. those of weak will/intelect are submissive, those with average will/intelect are leary, and those of high will/intelect know you are a vampire and react according to their class.) But we are working on liches and not rewriting the publics reaction to vampires, so I'll leave altering this for a later (personal) project.

[Darth_Blade]

Hey, why ask Xan? He deals in released lore information, which is easily available on the net. The one to ask is WormGod - TR does not work with speculation and theories - only known lore. All theories I saw, while plausible, are, as I would say, sucked out of a finger. If people are so interested, I could PM WormGod and try to worm some information out of him %) Should I?

[Túrelio]

If you ask me your best option is to make a very solid and informative post on the Official Lore Forums. Unlike most of the rest of the Official TES forums, the Lore forum is actually quite constructive in their responses, you dont see alot of spam or flaming plus it doesnt move very fast, it isnt hard to find a dev post there if they make one(and the right ones watch those forums).

[Anonymous]

You could try, but he is a dev, and I am sure that eventually they will get tired of releasing new lore. But the I have done a lot of research on liches and there is minimul lore surrounding then. If not limited lore. The transphormation is never descriped. And all that there is is practically no dialogues, books are scarse and, well, people just do not know. I will go post in the lore section of the ESF. If we are forced to dig through twenty pages of flame and spam, then well have to make up for it by making the lich a very unique and worthwhile experience. Not that there will be twenty pages of spam and flame. That is the most unlikely scenerio, but if it happens, I will personnaly read everything through in hopes of discovering some useful info. I am sure it is better then just sitting here and waiting, and we will most probably get something useful.

EDIT: Um... bit of a problem. I can not log into my ESF account. I have tried a million times. It will not respond. I have tried every trick in the book. Sorry, but someone else has to post.

[Lord_Gallant]

@Urdar- That aura of fear may well not be present in TES liches.

@Dagoth_mishka- You shouldn't have wasted your time searching, I have already emphasized (and Uldar) that there is no lore on lich transformations. That is why we need to ask a dev for the information to get any kind of conclusion

Also, while sifting through whatever comes up on the ES forum, be sure to recognize the real lore from the supposed lore. There are, unfortunately, quite a few nit-wits on the lore forums that assume they know it all, when they are actually making stuff up (or borrowind from D&D) and claiming it is fact. Remember, D&D does not equal TES.

Also, for the love of God, do not put "TR" anywere in your post on those forums.

[Anonymous]

Lord Gallant, I was going to try to post a lore thread in hopes that a dev would answer me. Thats what Turelio suggested. And I would never post TR in a thread. I may be new, but I am not foolish. If anyone posted that, the hopes of finding new lich lore would be shot to pieces. But I alrady said: I can not log in anymore. My password doesn't work. I hav tried a million times. I will try to make a new one with my alternet e-mail address, and hopefully get something out of it.