Are they really ghosts?

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:23 pm

why,exactly are the many dwemer ghosts of vvardenfell hostile?

the only ghost i ever found that wasn't hosile was radac in mournhold.

is it that they were not hostile several thousand years ago, but because of all the robbers that tried to kill them over the years, they decided it would be smater to strike first and ask questions later?

or did the process that killed them drive them mad?

or are they not really "ghosts" of former dwemer, merely autonomous shadows that have no idea what or where they are?

if anybody knows...

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:30 pm

They are indeed ghosts. Specifically, they are the ghosts of Dwemer that died before the events at Red Mountain.
Where they may have been passive beforehand, seeing every living member of their race magically vanish would serve to drive a spirit quite mad. Add the fact that they only have centurions for company, and have to fight off the endless hordes of treasure hunters who are trying to steal away every trace of Dwemer craftsmanship, and you can see why they are hostile.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:31 pm

They are not ghosts but specters. There are two main differences between ghosts and specters. Specters wonder near the place where they died. Plus all ghosts are hostile. They are guarding something. At least they think they do.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:41 pm

still doesn't explain why radac was the only sane one though. unless it's because his city was sealed off from treasure hunters for god only knows how many years.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:44 pm

Every ghost that has some mission is sane enough to tell you that mission. Remember land deed quest for the Legion ?

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:50 pm

yeah but the ghost in the land deed quest was sane because he didn't want his family uprooted. and wanted to see justice done.

whereas radac must have just been moping around down there for 3 thousand years with nothing to do, the only thing he did for you was tell you where to find pyroil tar after you bug him for a while.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:53 pm

Rian are you dumb or what ? HE HAD A GODDAMN MISSION TO COMPLETE. That mission was to pour some pyroil on the goddamn blade to light that goddamn Trueflame. That was his goddamn mission and that's why he was friggin sane. I hope I stated my point so that everyone can understand that ?

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm

ohhh, i was thinking of missions that they had when they DIED, and had carried for years, not missions that suddenly pop up when somebody walks in on them and asks for help. point taken though.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:57 pm

Actually the ghost in the land deed quest didn't have a mission to save his wife's land while he died or before death, did he ?

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:58 pm

Rian wrote:is it that they were not hostile several thousand years ago, but because of all the robbers that tried to kill them over the years, they decided it would be smater to strike first and ask questions later?

or did the process that killed them drive them mad?

or are they not really "ghosts" of former dwemer, merely autonomous shadows that have no idea what or where they are?

Nope. They're really dwemer that uploaded themselves into their own strongholds.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:07 pm

y'know, i promised not to bring up sotha's immortality again but if you guys are going to bring it up for me.....

how could they upload themselves into a fortress made out of stone and steam engines??? at least in sotha's case it was possible!!!

and if they did upload themselves, why can you see them? i haven't seen any holo-projector's around a dwemer fortress latley, have you?

seriously garriath, i was trying to get some feedback on a lore problem, not get flamed with STUPID,STUPID,STUPID, comments.

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:09 pm

Garriath, thats really getting annoying. And it is rude. Please, just stop.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:12 pm

I suppose I did go over the top. I'm sorry about that, Rian. I suppose I'm in a nasty mood today.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:13 pm

thank's, we all get in them at sometime or another.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:36 pm

the ghost in the land deed quest had a quest when he died, he had a vengence quest on the damn orc that killed him, then he had the quest to prevent the uprooting of his family when you told him about it.

so the "land deed" quest was a stupid proof on my account, but the "kill the orc quest" was with him when he died.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:16 am

SO he wanted to kill the orc when died ? He went there not to kill the orc but get some eggs.

Gooblecakes · Post by **Gooblecakes** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:23 am

i know i shouldnt be talking but...

1. Guy gets eggs

2. Orc kills him

3. Guy doesnt like orc

Rian, that seems simple enough to me, but is it simple enough to you? do you realize that the mans only mission at his time of death was to get some eggs?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:23 pm

Werent you guys talking about Dwemer Spectres?

Well, I think that the reason that the Spectres are hostile is because they had to endure a couple thousand years of looters, robbers, and researchers breaking in to their homes. Plus they were probably pretty pissed that their race was obliterated.

PS: Stop flaming Rian. Its very immature.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:42 pm

if they were pissed because their race was obliterated, then they should attack survivng dwemer. considering that they killed themselves off. i agree that it was probobly the robbers.

as for the egg quest: guy sneaks in to get eggs-> guy fights orc-> guy dies with vengence on his mind.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:53 pm

When you die you don't actually think of vengeance.

Lord Elias · Post by **Lord Elias** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:00 pm

This thread was inspired me about something.How about a quest that goes like this:you kill a guy,and later his ghost came back to hunt you?I know i should write more(like a story,why hi's hunting you,whats his couse)but I have a terible headache and cant think now.Sorry(& is there a quest like this already?)

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:01 pm

so if someone came up and bashed your brains out with a blunt axe, you wouldn't think of coming back to get them?

AlphaFemale · Post by **AlphaFemale** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:08 pm

In my opinion, if it was possible to come back from the dead to seek vengeance upon the person or people who caused your death, don't you think that we would have heard about it by now? People get killed all the time in Tamriel. You would think that with all the death, you would see the Ancestor Spirits doing more than loafing around their tombs.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:12 pm

This is going to get ugly...
Rian maybe it is possible for you to think of something without brains but if somebody will bash your brains you won't be thinking about anything.

I said that it'll get ugly, haven't I ?

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:17 pm

so what your saying is that i have no brains to think with?
and how do the ghosts think about stuff without brains then? your comment makes no sense.
grow up stalker.

about the ancestor spirits, that raises an interesting question. but i think that the ancestor spirits have already dealt thier vengence and returned to thier tombs, or perhaps their bound inside the tombs to prevent them from escaping. but it seems that murder victims whose bodys are not discovered tend to return to tell someone about it. as in the egg quest.

AlphaFemale · Post by **AlphaFemale** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:22 pm

If that were true, then don't you think that there would be quite a few ghosts haunting you? As the PC, you cause quite a few deaths. Of course, you don't HAVE to cause many deaths, but my first character killed off everyone in the Telvanni cities. The guards respawned, of course, but that isn't important. My character was responsible for hundreds of murders, and yet there was not the slightest hint of spirits telling anyone about it. Also, look at all the unidentified corpses laying around the Sixth House bases. "Unknown Hero", and stuff like that. They were never discovered, and yet you don't hear anything about them.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:24 pm

an oversight perhaps?

i don't think the game can handle hundreds of ghosts following you at once though.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:33 pm

SOmebody kill me. Or better him.

so what your saying is that i have no brains to think with?

At least you're acting like you don't heve 'em.

and how do the ghosts think about stuff without brains then? your comment makes no sense.
grow up stalker.

They don't need brains. Go and buy yourself a few books about ghosts. Daedra also don't have brains but they think right ? Zombies and corprus monsters have brains but they don't think.

Gooblecakes · Post by **Gooblecakes** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:45 pm

Rian wrote:so what your saying is that i have no brains to think with?
and how do the ghosts think about stuff without brains then? your comment makes no sense.
grow up stalker.

yeah, stalker is the one who needs to grow up, right? look rian, if anyone needs to grow up, its you (or maybe me, but thats differnt). you've gotten really weird about the sotha sil lives thing, and now your trying to tell us that dwemer ghosts arent really ghosts? dude...

P.s.... my signature is sooo much cooler than yours...

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:27 pm

Now back to this arguement, Stalker, don't call people stupid or take things to a personal level, Im serious about this. You are becoming to harsh on ideas and the core doesnt appreciate it, what if I had come up to you during the MoDH time and instead of discussing it civilly and explaining the cores stance, just said something along the lines of what you said?

Treat others the way you'd like to be treated. End story

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:32 pm

This post was placed in the spam thread because I had some part in the argument in it. Here's the on-topic part.

Here's a quote from 'Ancestors and the Dunmer':

Spirits do not like to visit the mortal world, and they do so only out of duty and obligation. Spirits tell us that the otherworld is more pleasant, or at least more comfortable for spirits than our real world, which is cold, bitter, and full of pain and loss.

Mad Spirits

Spirits that are forced to remain in our world against their will may become mad spirits, or ghosts.

Some spirits are bound to this world because of some terrible circumstances of their death, or because of some powerful emotional bond to a person, place, or thing. These are called hauntings.

Some spirits are captured and bound to enchanted items by wizards. If the binding is involuntary, the spirit usually goes mad. A willing spirit may or may not retain its sanity, depending on the strength of the spirit and the wisdom of the enchanter.

Some spirits are bound against their wills to protect family shrines. This unpleasant fate is reserved for those who have not served the family faithfully in life. Dutiful and honorable ancestral spirits often aid in the capture and binding of wayward spirits.

These spirits usually go mad, and make terrifying guardians. They are ritually prevented from harming mortals of their clans, but that does not necessary discourage them from mischievous or peevish behavior. They are exceedingly dangerous for intruders. At the same time, if an intruder can penetrate the spirit's madness and play upon the spirit's resentment of his own clan, the angry spirits may be manipulated.

I think the same goes for Dwemer spirits. Some are bound to the mortal world because they have some mission or obligation (like Radac). That mission must be completed before they can return to the otherworld. Others are forced to stay in the world by unknown (magical) forces. Those forces have to release them before they can finally return to the otherworld. Therefor they turn into mad spirits, attacking everything they want.

Rian · Post by **Rian** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:47 pm

i think that vegor explained things nicely, lets all clap for books.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:29 am

Stalker wrote:Rian are you dumb or what ? HE HAD A GODDAMN MISSION TO COMPLETE. That mission was to pour some pyroil on the goddamn blade to light that goddamn Trueflame. That was his goddamn mission and that's why he was friggin sane. I hope I stated my point so that everyone can understand that ?

Why so hostile?

And incorrect. At the time of his death, Nerevar would have been around weilding Trueflame. As far as Radac would have known, the sword was working fine. When he died -- presumably before the incident with the Heart, even, or else he wouldn't even have left a ghost -- he had no mission to complete.

Unless you want to say that Azrua denied him oblivion so that he would still be around for the Nerevarine to restore the blade. But that wouldn't make him a ghost in the traditional sense, would it? Just saying that he was sane because it was easiest for the storyline is no excuse.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:33 am

Read some books on ocultism. Radac didn't have a mission when he died. He's a spectre. So he died in Bamz-Amshend. He's not a ghost. Ghosts and spectres are somewhat different. You cannot say that poltegeist and ghost is the same thing, can you ?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:19 pm

is their no actual lore on what the dwemer reverants are?
If not i have an idea. the Dwemer race was so connected to their technology at the time of their destruction, that the oldest dwemer living then couldn't even survive without it, because of the etrnity they had gained to their lifespan from the Heart of Lorhan many of them had probably passed the natural point of death. these dwarves were so connected to their machinery that even after their bodies where destroyed their spirits remained with their tools, thus the dwemer reverants.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:44 pm

Ughm. Well...we don't actually know if Dwemer gained ethernity or not. But they are gone. And judgind from their spectres they are gone from Nirn.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:16 pm

Stalker, in making a distinction between ghosts and spectres, you are implying that the codex occult/D&D lore surrounding them applies to the Elder Scrolls. We all know that it doesn't. The Dwemer Spectres are ghosts. They are the ghosts of Dwemer that died before the disappearance.
As far as the actual practicality of this topic goes, I think it's a moot point. Who cares what they are? Does it influence TR in any major way? We will use the Dwemer Spectres the way Bethesda used them, and that is that.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:35 pm

Specters are ghosts but not fully ghosts. And I think it implies to TES lore also.

Does it influence TR in any major way? We will use the Dwemer Spectres the way Bethesda used them, and that is that.

And I think you're absolutly right here.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:30 pm

Well, guys, we are playing in a world with half cats/lizzards half man, in a world where i can shoot fire from my hands, or as an imperial get people to like you by just waving your hands (voice of the emperor), there really is no need to 100% explain why the supernatural does what it does.

But ill give it a slight go anyway

perhaps the ghosts dont hunt everyone because they have found a deeper understanding of life/death, The bad guys would actually be happy to become ghosts, that saves them a one way trip to oblivion. and the good guys might rest in peace knowing that their murderers will go to Oblivion. why most ghosts are hostile? well, they are indeed guarding something (there tomb, treasure) but it doesnt need to be an item, the egg guy was trying to guard his family, but he needed help, so hence he was not hostile. about the other ghost... ive never played that far up yet...

everytime i get there, i think wouldnt it be cool if... i start modding, and restart my game

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:00 pm

Just a small comment...

That's one thing that's really pissing me off about Oblivion advertising. Not that I'm blaming you or anything, but unless I am very much mistaken (it has happened once or twice

) no dead spirits go to Oblivion when they die. They merely go to a much more restful, positive place.

Thanks

Tamriel Rebuilt

Are they really ghosts?

Are they really ghosts?

Re: Are they really ghosts?