Tamriel Rebuilt

Harke, in the future don't come into a discussion 5 pages without reading what has transpired so far. Especially don't speak with such a certain tone when doing so.

As for the insect idea, we all know that isn't feasible.

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Harke, in the future don't come into a discussion 5 pages without reading what has transpired so far. Especially don't speak with such a certain tone when doing so.

Pardon. I really tried to read everything, but somehow I missed the completely awesome concepts at the top of page four when I posted my last concept. I guess it must be the jetlag from Ecuador.

If I sounded too certain then it's because I try to excise unnecessary information and post as little as possible.

I'm really happy with the new concepts by turelio, btw.

Thrignar Fraxix wrote: As for the insect idea, we all know that isn't feasible.

Why is it not feasible?

kill and loot the skyrender in Port Telvannis and tell me if you notice anything funny.

In terms of progress, about where are we currently, and what are the steps we need to take to move forward?

How exactly will a final design be decided, and how many pieces will it need to include before the artists get shipped off to work with the modellers? It seems that a more definitive look is required before city design starts. So much is in an uncertain state right now that everyone using their own interpretations to try and design cities is ultimately not going to be very productive.

I think for the moment more practical questions would be how many Dres settlements should there be in total, what should their approximate sizes be, where should they be placed, and what potential motifs and forms in a very general sense could be used given those locations (So if there is a city wedged in a cliff face, how might its form differ from one on a rolling plain).

I know everyone is excited to see new art and are eager to jump right in but we've reached a point where patience could go a long way. I can't tell anyone what to do, but I'm more inclined to just hang back and offer comments on whatever comes our way without trying to expand too much on ideas I can't articulate. Alternatively, we could discuss some of the other parts of Dres culture that don't have bearing on the architecture such as clothing, quests or just general quirks they might have while you're in the area (like lower starting dispositions than normal or increased costs of services).

A clothing discussion would be useful, as I am working on some clothing concepts as well. Currently I am using Morrowind's official concept art on House Dres for this and just some general ideas I have of what Dunmer dress like.

Also, the way I look at it, the Dres are basically the most backward MW society because they serve all other Houses through agriculture. Basically the greatest amount of Morrowind's fertile land is held by the Dres, and all other Houses are reliant on Dres crops.

When reading this I suddenly had the imagination of the Players fortress at the Dres. This would be surrounded by a large piece of land being cultivated with Saltrice, Meadow Rye, Cork root.. etc. as far as the eye can reach.

It's of course not was this thread is about. I only liked that idea and I don't even know if the player can join house Dres. Well, I don't wish to bring you away from the main-topic.

Gez wrote:To the contrary, I see them making those planned things when they first arrive, settle the new land, and they don't yet truly "know" it, see? So they force it into shapes that represent their ideas, their culture, by making these cantons.

Then progressively little settlements here and there grow to be cities, but they aren't the big organized things from the Exodus, so they're built without a rigorous planning. Further, they have begin to adapt to the land, to consider it theirs, so they respect the landscape more and try to fit in rather than reshape it.

And so, it is the earliest cities that have cantons -- like Tear -- and the more recent ones -- such as all the little towns here and there do not.

I guess I conveniently forgot the Dres were not the original inhabitants of the lands. In any case the idea makes sense, though when I think canton, I think Molag Mar. And that's why I'm opposed to the idea of large cities built around one big canton.

In any case I think Molag Mar sort of works because it stands alone, but if it would have a bunch of Velothi houses around it I think it'd look ugly.

Too bad for you, then. Because I like it.

By all means I'm no authority regarding the Dres and concept art so all I'm stating is my opinion.

A shot at a Dres robe. Quick and simple sketch.

[url=http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5241/trobjectsrobeqx7.jpg][img]http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5241/trobjectsrobeqx7.th.jpg[/img][/url]

One note on low class, middle class and high class buildings, though: Morrowind has no distinctions between those styles, and only has high class and low class furniture.

I'm terrible for jumping into this conversation without having read every post (I skipped pages 2-4), but has there been any discussion about architecture outside the cantons?

Dres has a heavy hand in farming-- and if I guess correctly, slavery too. I would be very happy to see some plantations/farms/paddies/what-have-you.

Of course, if this topic has already come and passed, then I apologize.

I think you are right that in the models themselves there are only the typical buildings usually and then there are the shacks, and what makes them upper-class or middle/lower-class is how they are put together, usually upper-class structures are larger and have walls while the lower-classes have multiple people living in the same structure and are packed together tightly. However, there certainly is a difference between the classes, and I believe Dres would have very obvious differences in the classes, either in the structures or in how they are put together and/or where they are placed.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with designing some specific structures to be used by each of them, then we don't have to completely rely on using the same models to make them appear to be upper or middle-class. Also, I'd like to maybe create a new kind of "shack" for the lowest-class, the old shacks are getting a little over used in my personal opinion.

Ah and I still want to come up with some concepts for a separate look for plantations.

Morrowind does have parts of an rm set. TR has supplied the rest, so we do have the furniture for the middle class.

Well, for shacks for slaves, the Redguard had used what looked to be silt strider husks and I always thought that would be a cool idea. I thought it would be interesting not only because of the plain fact that using a giant bug husk for a dwelling would be cool, but also because it is also something of a native dunmer structure but would be inhabited by argonian slaves (and khajiit slaves to a smaller extent).

@Chin - I think the number, location and general size of Dres settlements has already been determined. I've been told that the exterior modders have already laid down the Dres settlements (and relayed them after they decided to use the Velothi tile set). And this isn't a discussion on Dres lore that would express itself in game mechanics such as initial disposition to the player or quests. It is important that a concept art thread stays focused on the visual elements, so talking about their clothing isn't a bad idea.

Myzel, your robe reminds me of some previous concept art I've seen for the Dres. All of the concept clothing for the Dres has been either armor or robes. It would be nice to see what kind of shoes/pants/shirts they would wear.

Also, did anyone like the idea of having unique Dres ships? There were around 2 or 3 concepts from a long time ago, so I thought there might be some interest, I just think it would be more appropriate to focus on the architecture set first.

As for the architecture, I think we've talked about the cantons a lot, but I feel the other pieces have been neglected.

@Gez, Haplo, Thrignar Fraxix - I think Chin is right, we need some structure to this conversation. Go back and read his last post, if you haven't read it. I agree it would be constructive to know how a final set will be decided. If it's one of you three, or the officers in general, or a lead of a different department (like lore or something) that decides. I just think someone should be leading this discussion. Also, what is the direct purpose of this thread? To produce concept art? Or to produce the final design? Will the concept art that is produced here be taken somewhere else and a final design decided then, or will we have someone come on here in a few weeks, or a few months and say: "Hey, you know what, that's a good design, we're going with that one."?

Gez will have a large say, if not all, in what concepts are used at the final stages. The core may or may not discuss it, depending.

I've been thinking about Dres clothing and here's what I've come up with:

The lower classes would wear more standard stuff, farmers outfits and the like, fancier clothes would be more for the wealthy.

I was thinking that Dres have the warmest climate in Morrowind, and their clothing should perhaps reflect that. I was thinking of using very thin, light and airy materials such as silk and cotton (or their Morrowind equivalent), which would be appropriate considering the slave labour that is required to harvest those materials.

The clothes themselves I think would be stiff, thin and reasonably form-fitting. High collars, long sleeves, corsets laced up to the neck and padded shoulders. Very few layers. Designs and patterns would probably use hard, contrasting lines embroidered on top of the fabric. Lots of blue. Ornamentation might come in the form of brooches and clasps.

In terms of footwear, I think it might be interesting if most people in Dres lands used sandals instead of normal shoes, as this would give some potential for fancy sandals for the upper classes. Shoes and boots would be more utilised in swampy areas.

Lower classes would have simpler, brighter colours, and much shorter sleeves, often just covering the torso. Wide brim hats similar to gondolier hats might also be used.

I think the general idea is to successfully merge environment and culture. Like the Redoran. They are a proud, honorable House which has to contend with things like ash storms. As well as there being a fair amount of red used, they utlise lots of sashes and veils in their clothing.

@Haplo - Thanks for the info. Now we know whose butt to kiss (just kidding Gez, we won't pick on you).

@Chin - I don't know if I've ever seen sandals on an npc. Can we do that? (ok, just checked for sandal mods, and yes, of course we can, silly me)

The Dres settlements are already done, once with the now-discarded Old Dres set, and once with the Velothi set. So as to not redo them entirely again, it was decided that any new Dres set done would have to have the same footprint as the Velothi set, so that a simple job of search & replace would be enough to accomplish most of the transition.

Therefore, non-canton buildings would be a Dres re-styling of the Velothi buildings. So it is important to devise what the Dres style is; because of this constraint.

Now, Velothi architecture is like Hlaalu architectures: boxes. It's not like the Telvanni pods and roots, or the Redoran insectoids and crab shells. But still, there is a clear difference between Hlaalu and Velothi, even though they are the least dissimilar Dunmer architectures. This is what we have to aim at, a style that is as close and yet as different to the Velothi as the Hlaalu is -- and obviously as different as possible to the Hlaalu.

Is it absolutely necessary? It seems like any worthwhile changes would alter the set enough that the cities would want to be redesigned anyway. If the modders are willing to redo it again, is it absolutely worth clinging to an existing set for one of the most ambitious projects of TR (recreating House Dres) just to save the effort put into what was essentially a placeholder?

Ultimately it's not my decision, but we've come so far now, it seems a dreadful shame to turn back.

@Greendogo - The Ordinators feature sandals as part of their armor and I was intending to use them in my concepts for Dres clothing. It looks almost like scandals with a thin cloth covering or even as if socks are worn with it, at least that has always been my impression.

Good to know this about you Gez, I didn't think TR had no equivalent to a Lead Artist or Art Director, mostly because of how chaotic it was here at first with every other member saying what Dres concepts HAVE to be.

As far as redesigning Dres to fit the footprint of Velothi, that sounds good to make the initial transfer easy and fast, but we will still need to go back to make sure that other items placed on or around them are done well, and then possibly to integrate some of the more dissimilar Dres structures if we have any.

Well, there are two issues with making models for the Dres set. The first is that making models for our Oblivion Hammerfell sets is considered a higher priority. There is a shortage of good modelers, if we try to get everything we want into nifty nif files.

The other issue is that everyone in the core was fed up with the Dres issue, so if it happened it would have to be a painless, seamless transition.

I personally wouldn't mind making a more unique set, unconstrained by the Velothi set; however it'd involve a third round of remaking all the Dres cities from scratch, something none of the exterior modders who made them already would like. Further, it is a lengthy process. We had to cut Map2 in half because the wait for Necrom to be remeshed and redesigned from scratch was taking far too long. Let's keep in mind two dates:
May 2002: Morrowind is released
January 2007: TR's first map is released for its first beta

This is taking a long time. Chances are Map6 won't be released before TES5...

In any cases, the Dres do not live in crab shells not in mushrooms, therefore they live in boxes. All boxes have the same overall shape, be they Velothi boxes, Hlaalu boxes, Nord boxes, Imperial boxes, Common boxes... They're big, glorified shoe boxes. The cardboard can be customized to be unique, so we'll make unique cardboard for our Dres boxes. At a time it was even thought a retexture would be enough.

So, please keep in mind that the Dres set will have to put no heavier burden on existing "Velothidres" cities than the detailing and bugfixing phases all maps go through.


And on the other hand, this is why the discussion on the cantons was important; because they'll be our chance to make the Dres really unique, with one (at most two) canton cities that'll look nothing like anything on Vvardenfell, and which can be allowed to be Map6's Necrom. We can have one Necrom, but not a half-dozen of them.

EDIT: Posted this before Gez's previous post was readable.

I see the motivation in keeping the same footprint, but I wonder to what degree that would be an achievable goal. At any rate, unless Dres houses are given exactly the same dimensions as Velothi ones, most buildings will still have to be moved and fixed to avoid bleeding, clipping, and what not. To fix that, landscaping would have to be altered slightly, not to mention vertex shading on the land.

All in all, I wonder if the workload would really be so much smaller than redesigning them.


Perhaps a more important question: are the Dres cities that we have so far actually good enough that we want to keep them?

EDIT:

And on the other hand, this is why the discussion on the cantons was important; because they'll be our chance to make the Dres really unique, with one (at most two) canton cities that'll look nothing like anything on Vvardenfell, and which can be allowed to be Map6's Necrom. We can have one Necrom, but not a half-dozen of them.

In that regard, I do agree. Not every city should be canton-based and one impressive canton city would be better than five small ones.

Adanorcil wrote:All in all, I wonder if the workload would really be so much smaller than redesigning them.

Perhaps a more important question: are the Dres cities that we have so far actually good enough that we want to keep them?

Now you're going out of my jurisdiction and into the Head of Exteriors' purview.

I also agree, and really there is a lot that can be done with just a footprint constraint, so I certainly don't see this as a huge issue. We will still need to go over it in the end and make sure there aren't any issues, but hopefully even if we do have to tweak it here or there, it will be much less work. Tear, or where/whatever could be the canton city, will be a huge opportunity and decent amount of work, but at the least we wont have to redo all Dres settlements. Additionally, and non-velothi footprint structures made can be used for the canton city, both in and/or directly around it. Finally any additional models that we make that don't fit or aren't used can still be included, and I am sure the TR bolt-on modders will use them.

About modelling for Hammerfell, we cannot really make the modelers work on it, but if they need some encouragement or excitement, I'll be happy to do some concept art for Hammerfell as well. I know Lady N already gave me some suggestions before, and I can look up what is still needed.

I don't think anyone's suggesting there should be multiple super-special cities but for an entirely new modular set, will it really be similar enough to Velothi that a direct replacement will represent its best potential? Like you said, both Hlaalu buildings and Velothi buildings are all just boxes in the end, but are Hlaalu cities arranged like Velothi cities?

And if we limit ourselves to staying within the limits of Velothi, can the set as a whole really reach its best potential?

Who knows, I guess. A final decision is still a while away, and Map 6 even further. Like Thrignar said, shouldn't the Dres be the best part of the entire project?

I guess what I'm saying is that if the Dres are too similar to the Velothi, have we really done the best we can for them? And if the Dres aren't exactly like Velothi, but the cities are converted from Velothi placeholders, will the cities really represent the best possible result?

Well Gez really is in-charge here as stated above, so we need to move in this direction. Like I said, it is not really that big of a deal, and we can still have some structures that don't follow the same footprint and use them as we see fit. If we design it so that it can easily replace the existing models, we then pick and choose what we want to change, instead of having to start from scratch.

Being economical about it important too, and we can't just redo everything every few months or so, otherwise we wont get done. Besides that, there is a lot more to House Dres than their buildings and the statics that have been placed, part of making them best part of TR will come from the quests, NPCs, and a lot of things that I don't think have been done yet, and really can't even begin if we are still messing around with statics.

I guess so. If we continue down the route we seem to be heading so far, there isn't a lot of structual difference between Velothi and Dres. My worry was more about city planning. The Dres have an extremely segregated culture with obvious class inequality, but have the placeholder cities been made with this in mind?

Is it too much to ask for screenshots of the cities as they are currently?

Chin Music wrote:Is it too much to ask for screenshots of the cities as they are currently?

I agree. I want to see what we're working with.

Also, if the people that did the map 6 exterior previously will get mad because they have to redo it, take a look around this thread. I'm sure a lot of us would be willing to become exterior modders for the purpose of laying our hard work into the dirt.

And also, not to be argumentative Gez, but if we made something that didn't quite fit the Velothi footprint (though, I think it would still be box-ish) but it rocked hardcore, I think you'd want to use it anyway.

Narsis is a Hlaalu city, its capital in fact. The Dres cities are still very open to change, Narsis a hell of a lot less.

Faalen wrote:A couple pictures of Narsis as it is now, from its internal download thread:

[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=16207[/url]

[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=16227[/url]

As you'll note, it's Hlaalu and not Velothi. Also, it's extremely well-developed and generally awesome.

No offense, but what the hell are you talking about?

why would you post pictures of narsis? the city is Hlaalu, and therefore irrelevant to this thread.

I fired up my Silnim Dale WiP and took a screenshot so you would know what an actual dres city looks like (or was going to)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/ThrignarFraxix/Silnim.jpg

Looks pretty good, I reckon. There seems to be a bit of height tiering with bigger houses appearing near that raised plaza in the top-right. The bottom house groupings also look very cramped together (a good thing).

On what some people are arguing, the Dres cities weren't redone in Velothi, that was only the plan. We have yet to actually do that. Also, their designs are not created with an sort of overarching plan in mind, so redesigning them is certainly not out of question, and for some of the cities, is expected. Also, Gez' dates were meant to prove an already beaten horse, but they are a bit misleading. For example, following his dates, you would expect to see the first beta release of Map 2 in 2011 or 2012, and that's not true. We released a second beta of Map 1 in March of 2008 and the first beta of Map 2 December 1st of 2008. While I'm not saying we're going to be releasing stuff annually or bi-annually now, I am saying that things are moving along at a better pace now, since we have a large portion of work and planning done.

Now that is actually a lot bigger than I expected, most all the settlements I remember of Dres way back were all very small. I have to say too, if we didn't make a new set for Dres, I wouldn't be completely unhappy with the Velothi. That is some good news from Haplo, some of them might have to be redone, and of course we always have to make sure that it looks good even if we do a simple replacement, and in that review we can add a few structures if needed. Any how, main thing to keep in mind is that we should at the least have structures that can replace the Velothi set, and then after that we can also have some that just need to be added instead. I've been actually very impressed with how fast and well executed TR has been moving along, as I remember the times when it seemed like it would never get done.

It's very possible that a few Dres settlements will remain Velothi anyway. It makes sense that some of the earliest settlements were Velothi. See Vos in Vvardenfell (even if it had been "perverted" by the Telvanni). (And Ald Redaynia would have been a small Velothi fishing village if Bethesda didn't scrap it entirely to save time. There's still dialogue mentioning it's a village.)

Yes but then Vos was the original settlement before the Temple allowed the other Houses to start colonizing Vvardenfell I believe, rather than being an original Telvanni settlement, but I agree, it wouldn't be out of the question to see a Velothi Dres settlement or even Velothi structures in a Dres settlement. All the more reason to make them compatible.

Well Silnim was a bit of a surprise. I, too, thought most of the Dres settlements were a bit on the small side. And the layout isn't all that bad (though I still don't like Velothi, you guys made it really work).

I'm wondering if you guys have done anything with the area that Tear appears in, or if its blank? How big, exactly, would Tear be? Since the Dres lands are smaller in comparison to the other houses, you'd think that their capital would be smaller in comparison too. But that doesn't necessarily need to be the case. Any ideas, Haplo or Gez, if a size or general layout of Tear was ever worked on?

I had a look at almost every claim of the past, but never seen any Tear. While every other Dres city was built and put in place (with the old Dres tileset, of course), the area of Tear was simply blank in Map 6. As you, I really would like to know if some concepts have been designed.

I do not how current these are but Haplo posted these pics of the Tear slums on the thread on the official forums.
[url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/Tear/Slums3.jpg[/url]
[url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/Tear/Slums10.jpg[/url]
[url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/Tear/Slums11.jpg[/url]

But these are simply the slums, no Velothi Architecture is used in these screenshots.

osiris wrote:I had a look at almost every claim of the past, but never seen any Tear. While every other Dres city was built and put in place (with the old Dres tileset, of course), the area of Tear was simply blank in Map 6. As you, I really would like to know if some concepts have been designed.

Tear was made partially by Yinnie, then worked on by Kothloth, then they never finished it, and that's when we decided to scrap the Dres set. Later on Dexter claimed it, and like a year later posted some shots, mostly of the slums and a little bit of the residential area. The current files, along with the claim, are locked in the Not Available section.

Also, Tear as well as Balsan Mar are quite on the large side. Although Balsan Mar will probably need to be reduced in size. Ald Rotanir was sort of big too. Perhaps it was just spread out.

I've also done some Dres sketches. But they're totally different - opposites even! I've gone for a cruder indoril look, with lots of curves and huge roofs. There's a lot of wood and the cities are round walled things, with tightly packet streets. I'll upload soon.