Tamriel Rebuilt

Manors should have them, at least.

The middle class and poor wouldn't have these ancestral shrines. Only rich and even then that would require new meshes for a small shrine and ancestor idols.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to take that text seriously. It was written by a forum member at TIL, meaning it is based 100% on conjecture and personal creativity/license with fragmentary lore.

Waiting door = alcove in the side of a wall with a few candles and maybe some offertory ingredients
Done.


Simply make a point of sticking these in Dres houses fairly regularly

Hemitheon wrote:Also, there is absolutely no reason to take that text seriously. It was written by a forum member at TIL, meaning it is based 100% on conjecture and personal creativity/license with fragmentary lore.

This is what I was thinking. I wasn't sure if they got the idea for the waiting door somewhere official or if they just made it up off the top of their head. (BTW, making something up "off the top of ones head" is a dumb expression. Try explaining this to a person who speaks English as a second language.)

If we were to do something like this, I would agree with some here that it could get kind of dull for modders, however, I think that these could be easily implemented as part of the interior tile set and the modders could just stick some candles around it or something. This would be even more dull, I believe, because then each waiting door would look more or less the same. Now if we stuck them only in the manors, and if there were a few quests related to them through their families, this might be cool.

Another point I'd like to make is if you join house Dres, and they build you a stronghold once you have progressed enough, it would make no sense for you to have a waiting door in your stronghold if you were an Argonian or a Breton or whatever. Are there any other ancestor worshipping races besides the Dunmer? I haven't ever researched it. And another thing, will non-Dunmer be able to join House Dres?

I like the WD idea, even if a non-lore one is lore-compatible. I always thought that the ancestor worship of dunmeri comes from latin-roman Lares and Penates (more lares, though), so a little altar to hose-worship sounds good for me, especially for Dres. I mean, I don't think that vivec's "pre-tribunal" definition was meant only about hating outlanders and large scale slavery...
Of course, this "lararium" is meant to be something original... a waiting door defined as Lud did is no good in my opinion. If we like this, we shoud think of something different, more on the ash-theme maybe...

Hemitheon wrote:The middle class and poor wouldn't have these ancestral shrines. Only rich and even then that would require new meshes for a small shrine and ancestor idols.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to take that text seriously. It was written by a forum member at TIL, meaning it is based 100% on conjecture and personal creativity/license with fragmentary lore.

People, you could have at least run a simple search query to figure out that he's quoting that from [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/doors_of_the_spirit.shtml]The Doors of the Spirit[/url] and [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/ancestor.shtml]Ancestors and the Dunmer[/url].

The Doors of the Spirit wrote: From the Waiting Door comes your protection. Heed the spirits, who are the guardians of your hearth, teachers of wisdom, counselors of fortune, seers of fate.

So WD are indeed part of the Dunmer culture, but it's the form of them which I want to focus:

Ancestors and the Dunmer wrote:Even more grotesque and repugnant is the display of the bodily remains of ancestors in ghost fences and ash pits. The presentation of fingerbones in a family shrine, for example, is sacrilegious to the Bosmer (who eat their dead) and barbaric to the Altmer (who inter their dead).

So the "architectural form" of the Waiting Doors is not the classic "niche" or "grotto", but "ghost fences and ash pits". Now, as i saw many ash pits in vvardenfell, they were outside the houses, in temples and ancestral tombs, and none in the ashlander ancestral burial of the urshilaku clan... and none into private buildings also.
Now, "public" WD could be in temples and tombs, but I like the idea to make some "private" for Dres families... Ash-pits could be easily redesign as pieces of furniture, maybe different shapes and textures to fill into a manor or a shack.

I do not like the idea that only one house, not even the most devout, would have something that would seemingly be exclusive to only the most devout.

Why does this thread include discussion of ancestral habits of the Dres? This thread is for the architecture set only, not furniture or items that might go inside Dres dwellings.

Uhm, try to see that way: if you have your personal house-shrine doesn't mean you hare "more devout" than somebody else.

I mean, every religion has different tradition in each country and region. In southern Italy in many country towns there's the tradition to burn a stake in chrismat eve ("to warm up the baby Jesus") or in carnival ("to burn away the devil"). In cities they don't do this thing, should mean that city people (ever in Vatican) are less devoted than the country ones? Or, due this thing comes from a pagan ritual adapted for christians during the centuries, burning these stakes in chrismast eve should mean that these countryfolks are less devout than people who doesn't do it? None. Is just a regional and simple tradition, evend the ones who doesn't believe in god burn these stakes, and go to the chrismats mass and make chirstmast presents. Observe a tradition, even a religious one, doesn't mean you have a greater or lesser devotion.


So, having "house shrines" and "waiting doors", is not a sign of the "devotion" but a "tradition". Should mean that Dres are more connected to this particular religious traditions, not that they are "more dovout" than Indorils or Whatevers. So maybe in Dres districts there are - dunno - no ash pit in the temples. Or no statues. Or whatever.
It is possible, it could be. Think about it.

Haplo wrote:Why does this thread include discussion of ancestral habits of the Dres? This thread is for the architecture set only, not furniture or items that might go inside Dres dwellings.

Interiors tileset as walls and floors is part of architecture, right? So, if these Waiting Doors are grottos or niches are part of the architecture, right? Ok, maybe we could split the thread until we figured out which goes where, but this I cannot do it... and starting a new thread leaving all this things we already said.. dunno...

@Haplo: The Waiting Door, if it were chosen to be implemented, might be a part of the interior tile set. Regardless of items that may be placed around it, if it's going to be a part of the standard Dres interior, I think we should talk about it here. If you think it should just be a piece of static (like furniture) somewhere in a house, then yes, it wouldn't belong here.

I say don't bother. It would really add pretty much nothing to the game, it would require special attention to implement and the only people who would understand anyway would be us.

Haplo is right the Waiting Door isn't really important right now, and it won't require special architecture, so it doesn't really fit into this thread. If we decide to do it, it will be easy enough to add them with whatever models we come up with.

Bah, you guys are no fun

So, Turelio, could you tell us a little bit about your ideas for your upcoming concepts? (That sounded a bit like some kind of cheesy talk show interview)

Not really, I've pretty much said as much as I know. I want to focus more on the interiors, do a few more concepts of how the potential cantons might look, and I have a few armor/clothing concepts that could be applied to Dres, or just Morrowind in general.

Ok, I got enough finished to make a new post. I still have quite a few others, but they are still pretty rough, so they'll just have to wait.

Ok, most of these are in B&W, but this should give you an idea for a good color scheme for them. The design above the door needs to be changed, but the basic idea is that we can have several designs, on transparent models, just like spiderwebs and moss, and we can put them over doors or on the walls of important houses/homes or in strategic locations. This design is really just a place holder, there is a couple more examples further down that better show what I think they'll look like.

Color scheme
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/1353/richhouseconcept1c.jpg[/img]


Ok, here is the basic idea I have for cantons. There will only be a handful, and all in Tear probably. I would say, three or so. In these examples, they are built over an enclosure where more buildings and such are, like we talked about before, but also on top there can be some buildings hanging off the sides and one central large structure, that is just an extension of the canton up. The row of holes at the top are large windows. At the very top, the larger ones will have room for the highest nobles of House Dres.

Canton 1
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8040/drescanton1.jpg[/img]

A smaller canton, for variety in Tear.

Canton 2
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8708/drescanton2.jpg[/img]

The Dres Council House is built very similarly to a canton, but of course there isn't an underground city beneath it, and its smaller than the cantons.

Council House
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/9748/drescouncilhouse1.jpg[/img]

Here is an example of how I see it looking. Not only are there cantons, but the roods and houses are on elevated terraces/roads, that section of the really poor parts of Tear, and possibly surround the slave pits themselves. You can also see here two examples of those separate designs.

Tear
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8272/tearconcept1.jpg[/img]

Close up of the larger design. Those are Argonians being stood on, since it seems some people were wondering.

Dres Dominance
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8195/dresdominion1show25.jpg[/img]

Spiked heavy duty walls, specially for the slave pits. Walls around other parts of the city might look similar but without spikes.

Slavepit Walls
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8964/dresslavewall1.jpg[/img]

Dres Ancestral Pylon. City watch can uses these to summon Dres Ancestors to help them fight. They could have a special effect just like the Ghost Fence, with the blue mist coming out of it, always or maybe just when activated. I will do more of these, I was thinking maybe something slightly taller.

Ancestral Pylon
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4945/dresancestralpylon1.jpg[/img]

Not everything in the line up is related to Dres, I was just doing armor designs for my own use, but decided to include some Dres stuff. Dres already have a house Bonemold, but I imagined these being worn by Slave Hunters and Raiders, and also for more variety across Morrowind. We can have some bonemold that isn't associated with any house.
(The Ordinators at the end don't have anything to do with TR.)

Armor line-up
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/7728/armorcharconceptlineup1kw8.jpg

Link, because it's extra long and I don't feel like resizing it.

I need to do an overhead mock layout of Tear, so that you guys can better see what I am talking about, and I still need to do some interior concepts. Some of these I might work a little bit more on as well. Hope you guys like them.

Those are fucking genius. Gorgeous work, Turelio. I can imagine it already, with images everywhere.

We have a winner!

The spiky wall looks a little like something from Star Wars (in particular, the walls from the RTS game 'Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds': this is bad, IMO), but the houses and cantons are perfect!

And the designs... genius!

Wow, fucking brilliant! Great variation; these are a lot different than the previous ones (which were still brilliant).

The armor concepts are great too (are those versions of Ordinators that would be seen around the Deshaan Plains?).

@Bloodthirsty Crustacean: Even though you may not like the spiky walls, they make sense for a slave pit don't they? Unless we just put guard towers at every corner of the pits or made the walls pretty high, how else will you keep slaves who think they're smarter than the system in check (besides hanging bodies on the walls or something as a warning... which might be cool)?

Anyway, fucking brilliant! Keep it up!

Now those are some sweet concepts. Tear is going to be very imposing.

Oh God my head just exploded from how impressed I was.

I love the artwork of the Dunmer warrior standing on lizards.

Helm-wise, I have problems with the first three. The first one looks a little too sci-fi alien and the second/third looks like a knock-off of Dagoth Ur's helm.

I like the Ordinator armor at the end, but I wonder if Deshaan District would have a special ordinator. Ordinators are usually reserved for Temple affiliated cities: Vivec, Almalexia, Necrom, Molag Mar, etc. Plus, they have a sponsor: Almalexia - Almalexia, Vivec - Vivec, Necrom - Tribunal, Molag Mar - Vivec, etc. Whose sponsor would this new armor be? Sotha Sil?

Why is anyone saying there would be unique ordinators for the deshaan area? Why is anyone saying anything about the armor lineup that is completely irrelevant to this thread and only there as eye candy.

Great stuff. It's simple, imposing, and totally Morrowind. I for one would be a very satisfied 'customer' if that is how Dres cities will look in my game.

Thanks

Yea the Ordinators at the end aren't for TR, those are for my comic, I was working on them all at the same time(and was to lazy to cut them out, since I uploaded those a month ago). The rest doesn't specifically have to apply to Dres. The two that I did have Dres in mind were the 4th and 5th armor concepts, which I see as a good outfit for slave hunters. It's a combo of bonemold and scales, possibly Argonian scales, and the cloth banner would say something intimidating towards escaped slaves. I don't see any need for more Ordinator types in TR. Sorry, I didn't make that clear enough in the initial description.

Yea, I will try and work on that wall some more. I have sketches for at least two other types of walls, plus we can easily retexture the standard Velothi walls to match. We should at least have two types of walls, a small and a large, and possibly something in between.

Edit: Also, in the Dres mural, those are Argonians being stood on.

Túrelio wrote:
Edit: Also, in the Dres mural, those are Argonians being stood on.

Oh I know. It's just you don't even need to identify them further than being lizards. The symbolism is pretty overt.

I do believe TR has some form of 'Dres Slave Hunter' armour already, some very good stuff, from Nalin. Of course, further concepts etc. are always good, and I've never quite been clear on whether Nalin gave us the stuff or not.

Great drawings! Everything is very Dres. The 2nd canton is especielly nice, I like how sleek and compact it looks. The ancesotor pylon is also very good, though that part about guards using them to help fight is a little much.

Absolutly stunning... I love the murals and the ancestral pylon. The Council Hall is a total direct hit.

love it. i agree about the walls, they dont seem entirely cohesive with the set - too sci-fi industrial. the pilon looks like something from the Riddick Necromongers imo, at least the face. or could just be me trippin'

Lady Nerevar wrote:love it. i agree about the walls, they dont seem entirely cohesive with the set - too sci-fi industrial. the pilon looks like something from the Riddick Necromongers imo, at least the face. or could just be me trippin'

Yeah, kind of:
[url]http://www.legionxxiv.org/riddick.htm[/url]
Edit: Though they are quite different, the pointy thing at the top is sort of the same.

Edit 2: I also like the 3rd, 4th and 5th armor sets. The 3rd one doesn't strike me as at all similar to Dagoth Ur's. The mask looks as if it's made of bone and the spikes on the head look to me like they are either part of that bone (maybe), or feathers (maybe). The 4th helmet is also pretty cool.

Edit 3: Last but not least - I like the idea that some buildings might have murals on them. It's pretty unique and might be easy to do with the murals being separate statics from the buildings so not all the buildings are the same. There could be multiple standard murals and a few unique murals that could be put in special locations, such as the Dres standing on top of the Argonians at a war memorial or at a slave-auction block (or those could be the same thing, hmmmm edgy). Anyway, just an idea.

Awesome new stuff Turelio, I really like where you have taken the Dres concepts. Very creative. And I think it fits perfectly with the feel of the Dres...even if we are halfway making up what that feel is, lol!

The cantons, are very imposing, and the murals/designs on the walls and buildings add a great deal.

Keep up the good work.

Yea I can see the resemblance to the Necromonger armor, mostly I think it's just the forehead. I still like the idea of the face there, but next time I might change it some.

Those two bonemasks in the Armor lineup were meant to be different but similar to Dagoth's masks, and those are feathers. The idea was as perhaps bonemold-combo made by some Ashlanders or as ancient armor, but they could just as well be made by someone else for more modern uses. Different parts of different materials.

Chin Music wrote:

Túrelio wrote:
Edit: Also, in the Dres mural, those are Argonians being stood on.

Oh I know. It's just you don't even need to identify them further than being lizards. The symbolism is pretty overt.

Not you Chin, someone else asked me outside TR.

Turelio, is there perhaps a chance of you putting up some functional sketches of the designs you've posted?

Yea, no problem. Will have to wait for at least two weeks, I really need to work on my school projects right now, but the quarter ends in two weeks. Should be fairly easy once I can though. Also, I am happy to do the textures for these designs as well, when it comes to that.

So does this make Turelio's sketches the official House Dres architecture? or does that still need to be decided.

Also, @ Turelio, have you considered what the interior would look like?

Short answer is, yes I have, but it still needs to be fleshed out more. I know roughly what I want to go for, and I've made a list of the pieces that I think are needed to give modders creative control over interiors. I'm sure you've noticed that some interior sets can be more creative, while others you are very limited with. I'm also going to list them in order of importance, as a suggestion to the core as to which need to be created first and which would simply be nice to have. Obviously the standard corners and sides needed for rooms is more important than say, a closet(bad example but only I could think of). Since we can't always rely on modelers, we want to make sure that certain ones are modeled first in-case we don't get them all done.

I will probably do concepts for three different types of interiors: standard, mid-sized, and large. Similar to the different Redoran and Velothi interior sets(in variety, not necessarily in look). Also probably a few special ones, like the inside of the Council House, and the interior for the cantons(or that could just be the large set).

It might also be a good idea to make them compatible with one of the other interior sets, that we could retexture to match, but that is kind of a back-up plan, but none of them really look like they belong IMO. Anyways, hopefully we can get some dedicated modelers that will get them all done.

Hemitheon wrote:So does this make Turelio's sketches the official House Dres architecture? or does that still need to be decided.

Well, the designs seem to have come about as a result of a lot of deliberation and brainstorming, and it seems to me no one really has a problem with them, and in fact there only seems to be agreement and even suggestion for additions or otherwise minor improvements.

Turelio's captured the ideals pretty well, I'd say. Sometimes all it takes is one talented person to rally support for something. If you're just looking for someone to bang the gavel and make it official, then I for one hereby submit my vote to make Turelio designer of the set. It seems like that's what he intends to do anyway.

Officially, it's just concept art, but it would be easier to decide (and it would make a more persuasive argument) if it came with not only atmospheric sketches but also functional, usable sketches.

Chin Music wrote:If you're just looking for someone to bang the gavel and make it official, then I for one hereby submit my vote to make Turelio designer of the set.

I think the core are the only ones who can decide this. (Not that I disagree)

Turelio, I think seeing some interiors would be really helpful. Have you thought about interior embellishments such as ceiling designs or archways and how to make it distinctly Dres? The exterior doors you have drawn are (IMO) awesome and should come in as many varieties as you have drawn (I saw up to eight styles on your recent concepts). I think your concepts are very Dunmeri, in that they are exotic in a sexy and dangerous way (or however you prefer to describe it).

The only complaint I have after much thought is on the 2nd Canton. The outcroppings on the corners on the second floor look as though they might hinder movement on the terrace, and may need to be reduced or removed. But then again, the scale it is drawn at makes it looks like you could put an assortment of outdoor market stalls between them.
This is what I'm referring to:
[url]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/Greendogo/Morrowind/drescanton2_edit.jpg[/url]