Some useful things I dug up while looking for Sload's Telvanni faction outline on a whim:
Sload wrote:The Dust Adepts are an ancient Chimeric order of the sort that have long been abandoned as heretical, sublimated into the worship of the Tribunal who portray themselves as the achievement of Veloth's vision. Their theology in particular is associated with the sacrifice of Trinimac-Malacath as an opening to Veloth's path.
Why are they all-powerful? They aren't; they are just very powerful. They have abandoned the immature quest of the Telvanni for temporal power, and in their mysticism they have a certain ability to reshape the world, because their magical understanding is more accurate - more divine - just as other similar characters have been portrayed.
They are associated with the Telvanni through historical circumstances; it is to a certain extent a marriage of convenience. The Telvanni offer them a measure of protection by being untamable, and they mediate the Telvanni when necessary so that they don't collapse.
Sload wrote:There are few ports in the world more difficult to reach than the tangled port of Telvannis, which lies in the furthest corner of Tamriel. Traveling from the City of Cities, it would be easier, in fact, to reach several of the nearer lunar endospirals than the great city of the Telvanni magelords of east Morrowind. Western ships are not welcome to lay anchor at Port Telvannis; the battlemages of the outer membrane will blast unwelcome visitors from the water. To reach the city, one must travel to the commercial enclave of Gah Sadrith, where ferrymen will take visitors to the distance to Telvannis by giant waterstriding bugs native to the region. Standing at the gate to Port Telvannis is like standing in the gaping maw of some extraterrestrial monster. A great many huge tendrils explode out from the entrance to the city, enormous, intimidated, and totally pointless.
Once one pays the bribes and receives the necessary papers at the appropriately named "Aperture," they are almost certainly overwhelmed. The entrance to the city is like the bottom of that monster's stomach; one is not only within the city, but below it. There are no streets or avenues on the ground floor, the entire city is built on a structure of vines and tentacles that twist in the air above. Without levitation, entering the city is impossible. Floating in the air between the spires are the Register Netches, huge bull netches which carry within their fatty brain tissue the symbiorecorded memories and minds of Telvanni mages who have grown older than their bodies can sustain.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
DestinedToDie wrote:Striders are more of a Redoran/Hlaalu thing that the empire might have adopted in a small way. This is never discussed upon, but I suspect that they are Redoran in origin.
Quoting PGE1:
"Telvani bug-musk is a highly prized perfume among the Dark Elves, and their riding-insects command the highest prices in the markets of Almalexia and Narsis"
I can only interpret "riding-insects" as silt striders. That they fetch the highest prices would likely be an indicator that they are the best, which could be taken as an indicator that the Telvanni have a strong tradition of preparing ("domesticating", and "training" all seem like the wrong word, any better ideas what to call the procedure?) silt striders for use as beasts of burden. And who else would develop such a weird and complicated procedure? I also think that, if this line of reasoning is accepted, this would be an indication that the Telvanni have a use for them.
On a completely different note, I would love to see Telvanni towers on the mainland be less hospitable than their Vvardenfell counterparts, giving the player the feeling that esoteric things that they can't rightly grasp are going on there. Dread and wonder is the feeling I would go for.
And this...
Sload wrote:Floating in the air between the spires are the Register Netches, huge bull netches which carry within their fatty brain tissue the symbiorecorded memories and minds of Telvanni mages who have grown older than their bodies can sustain.
...is a great idea!
Sidenote: a silt strider-market in Almalexia and/or Narsis? That would be a very cool and characterful feature.
EJRS wrote:the Telvanni have a strong tradition of preparing ("domesticating", and "training" all seem like the wrong word, any better ideas what to call the procedure?) silt striders
It being closer to lobotomy or DBS, maybe make up a word like not exactly decerebrate... eg 'paracerebrate' or something about ambulation?
Sload wrote:...Floating in the air between the spires are the Register Netches, huge bull netches which carry within their fatty brain tissue the symbiorecorded memories and minds of Telvanni mages who have grown older than their bodies can sustain.
Yes. SO much this. Has a kind of Matrix-y feel to it, and it would be easy to do with a slight modification to the Netch mesh and a retex, maybe give them a sound effect almost like the Ghostgate hum.
hmmmm. I've pondered this for a while. it is common knowledge that telvanni are risk-takers, though they are isolationists, they also have a habit of expanding into other people's territory, such as in vvardenfell, and they're quite territorial, due to their constant struggles with hlaalu over velothi towers and such. it would make sense that there would be smaller border towns, just edging into indoril territory, as shown in this map. also, would house telvanni have had an architectural style before their use of mushrooms? that could be used for the grand council house.
http://fredoric1001.deviantart.com/art/Morrowind-3E427-English-518012195
a great map that shows what i mean
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
a good atmospheric look at a telvanni tower, notice the ash plains
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Telvanni-Tower-113074747
another pic of art that screams telvanni
http://demi-urgic.deviantart.com/art/The-patrol-323912151
some art by dragomir for telvanni
http://swietopelk.deviantart.com/art/Tel-Naga-497858911
http://swietopelk.deviantart.com/art/Zafirbel-Bay-466158437
http://swietopelk.deviantart.com/art/Telvanni-Mouth-496275439
hope these will be of use, they demonstrate the alien feel of the telvanni. i find that the currant telvannis isles looks a bit too grazelandish, too many trees. of course, i suck at using the creation kit, and i don't really contribute much so i have no right to criticize.
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
"preferring to tend their herds of giant insects amid the rocky hills and islands of the extreme northeast. Telvani bug-musk is a highly prized perfume among the Dark Elves, and their riding-insects command the highest prices in the markets of Almalexia and Narsis"
pocket guid to the empire
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
Here are some images from the top of Mount Roraima in Venezuela. To me, they look like how I imagine parts of Telvanni territory. (But with less giant mushrooms)
So, what does House Telvanni offer Morrowind society? Dres plantations supply food, Redoran supplies security, Hlaalu supplies outside wealth, and Indoril runs the lot. Of course, reality doesn't exactly match this ideal, but I'm thinking in a sort of "Indoril Determined Law" matter where people believe each House fulfils a distinct role necessary for Morrowind. If Redoran is Morrowind's wall, Hlaalu is its gate, Dres is its farm and Indoril is its nerve centre, what would Telvanni be? Magic and bug musk are luxuries, and Silt Striders, while useful, are limited by only being able to carry a driver and one, maybe two passengers.
Some various miscellaneous ideas on the Telvanni:
*The xenophobia of the Telvanni noble families extends to thinking of themselves as a higher breed of Dunmer. They are not just hostile to outlanders seeking to join, but anybody not born into the House.
*Since House Telvanni believes in individual achievement as opposed to the Mages Guilds goals of the progress of knowledge, Telvanni tend to keep their knowledge secret to gain an advantage over their rivals. Many conflicts between magelords are the results of attempts to steal each-others research. This would be supported by how Neloth in Dragonborn claims that he refuses to train you in Enchanting once you've maxed it out not because he's run out of things to teach like most other trainers, but because he believes that you could surpass him.
*Several outlanders join House Telvanni because it offers a place for magical training without all the regulations and dues of the Mages Guild. The House is divided between those who hate them and those who think that they are useful to fight the influence of the Guild.
*The guy who sponsors your entry into House Telvanni has always lusted for the role of Archmagister, but recognizes that he can never defeat him. Seeing how the player, being an RPG protagonist, inexplicably rapidly grows in strength and masters many skills, he decides to groom him into becoming the new Archmagister, reasoning that the second best thing would be to have an Archmagister you could actually trust and respect (which is rare enough among your inferiors in House Telvanni, let alone your superiors).
Dreadnautilus wrote:So, what does House Telvanni offer Morrowind society? [In terms of determined law]
That's a good question. My best guess would be that in the Indoril worldview, House Telvanni is something like Resdayn's equivalent to the Psijic Order, but the problem with that is that we only really know how high Telvanni wizards are characterized and retainers and such are only mentioned in the context of serving them. It's not really possible to get a group picture of something that's only a group by convenience.
Dreadnautilus wrote:The guy who sponsors your entry into House Telvanni has always lusted for the role of Archmagister, but recognizes that he can never defeat him. Seeing how the player, being an RPG protagonist, inexplicably rapidly grows in strength and masters many skills, he decides to groom him into becoming the new Archmagister, reasoning that the second best thing would be to have an Archmagister you could actually trust and respect (which is rare enough among your inferiors in House Telvanni, let alone your superiors).
I don't believe Aryon is nearly as idealistic as that. He supports the player's bid to become Archmagister because he and the player have the same short-term objectives and long-term he just needed a useful tool to get rid of Gothren because he believes (correctly, going by Oblivion's rumors) that the player won't stick around long. And besides, this will have to be rewritten anyway when the Vvardenfell and mainland branches are merged and Gothren stops being relevant.
Also, not to mention that Aryon is every bit as cruel and vindictive as other Telvanni masters. He trapped a team of builders in his dungeon and sicced a flame atronach on them and he keeps an Imperial locked up in his museum.
Dreadnautilus wrote:The guy who sponsors your entry into House Telvanni has always lusted for the role of Archmagister, but recognizes that he can never defeat him. Seeing how the player, being an RPG protagonist, inexplicably rapidly grows in strength and masters many skills, he decides to groom him into becoming the new Archmagister, reasoning that the second best thing would be to have an Archmagister you could actually trust and respect (which is rare enough among your inferiors in House Telvanni, let alone your superiors).
I don't believe Aryon is nearly as idealistic as that. He supports the player's bid to become Archmagister because he and the player have the same short-term objectives and long-term he just needed a useful tool to get rid of Gothren because he believes (correctly, going by Oblivion's rumors) that the player won't stick around long. And besides, this will have to be rewritten anyway when the Vvardenfell and mainland branches are merged and Gothren stops being relevant.
Also, not to mention that Aryon is every bit as cruel and vindictive as other Telvanni masters. He trapped a team of builders in his dungeon and sicced a flame atronach on them and he keeps an Imperial locked up in his museum.
I wasn't trying to make it seem idealistic. In my mind, the Telvanni more open to new ideas like Aryon are just as selfish and evil as the old traditionalist Telvanni. They are just more pragmatic and less insane.
EDIT: Idea that occurred to me.
The real reason why the Archmagister is so seclusive is that he is even more senile than Therana. Knowing that he will eventually degenerate to the point that he'll become easy pickings for the next Magister, he went into hiding and ordered his Mouth to act like he is still present. In effect, this means the Mouth is the actual most powerful member of House Telvanni. When the player finally confronts him, he is little more than a friendly loon who can barely cast a spell.
Not sure if this is a good idea. Could end up making his personality too similar to Mistress Therana, and House Dres and Hlaalu already have secret conspiracies behind them.
If we go with the proposed idea that Mouths are mind-clones, we could also have it be that he has no Mouth, and actually runs everything in person, using face-changing magic like that one Altmer added by Dawnguard to make it seem like he is replaced every so often. His heavily guarded private quarters are nothing more than a distraction to keep the heat off him.
It seems out of character to me that the most powerful (barring possibly Fyr) wizard of House Telvanni and basically the person who would exemplify everything that Telvanni is would actually care about House politics and administration at any level.
I like the "Dral is a loon who can barely cast a spell and his mouth has effectively taken over" idea in principle but the second part was already sorta done by Faruna unless she gets axed and there's no lore precedent to my knowledge of an ages old wizard growing weaker - in TES age generally confers might. Also, dispatching Dral being an easy task would both undermine the player's personal sense of accomplishment and not provide the player any sort of leverage for becoming Archmagister - if Dral was weak, then him being the Archmagister in name was irrelevant for he could never be one in fact.
Sparts wrote:It seems out of character to me that the most powerful (barring possibly Fyr) wizard of House Telvanni and basically the person who would exemplify everything that Telvanni is would actually care about House politics and administration at any level.
I like the "Dral is a loon who can barely cast a spell and his mouth has effectively taken over" idea in principle but the second part was already sorta done by Faruna unless she gets axed and there's no lore precedent to my knowledge of an ages old wizard growing weaker - in TES age generally confers might. Also, dispatching Dral being an easy task would both undermine the player's personal sense of accomplishment and not provide the player any sort of leverage for becoming Archmagister - if Dral was weak, then him being the Archmagister in name was irrelevant for he could never be one in fact.
Good points there.
The question we have to answer is, if Dral is such a hermit, why does he remain Archmagister? It would simpler for him to abandon politics entirely like Divayth Fyr did if he's only interested in his own research. There has to be some special perks for being Archmagister, or at least for having a representative on the Parliament of Bugs, to explain why he hasn't retired.
We have a lot of ideas with House Telvanni and a lot of thought has gone into their Archmagister Dral.
Dreadnautilus wrote:EDIT: Idea that occurred to me.
The real reason why the Archmagister is so seclusive is that he is even more senile than Therana. Knowing that he will eventually degenerate to the point that he'll become easy pickings for the next Magister, he went into hiding and ordered his Mouth to act like he is still present. In effect, this means the Mouth is the actual most powerful member of House Telvanni. When the player finally confronts him, he is little more than a friendly loon who can barely cast a spell.
God no; this could not be further from the truth. House Telvanni fear/respect Dral because his power is awesome. The reason he's such a hermit is because he's lost his interest in the mortal realm and doesn't really care about House Telvanni or anything for that matter anymore. He's essentially lost to his research. He's left this plane altogether and there will be some quest that has the player confront him in the end.
I remember Why had a lot of ideas on this and if he was still around he could tell you far more than I could. Iirc, gaining control of House Telvanni from Dral isn't really the issue, it's actually reaching him that's the problem. He's in one of many small pocket realms outside of Mundus. I do believe we will have the player confront Dral and have to fight him for entertainment value, but lorewise, he wouldn't care at all if you told him you wanted to be the new archmagister; he'd let you have it so long as you left him alone to continue his research. He's more or less the Telvanni version of Sotha Sil in the sense that he's left this realm to carry on more research and doesn't really visit the people anymore.
Tl;dr
Dral is a badass, he's not a coward and while one could argue that he's insane; losing it is not something he's worried about, nor would he be a nutjob like Therana.
I think it would be cooler (read, different) if maybe the Archmagister isn't so deep into his studies that he doesn't care about the House anymore, but more that he perhaps tired to do pull a Divayth Fyr and make clones of himself (for various reasons) or perhaps some other kind of metaphysical experiment (maybe he tried fucking with the Earth Bones or tonal architecture) and it went awry so he's either disfigured (like a Bonewalker but scarier) or lost or perhaps even in some state of un-being, so he simply CAN'T lead the House as he would like to. I think the concept of "Mage lost in his/her studies, stops caring about physical world, goes slowly insnae" is used to near-capacity in both vanilla and TR, since the Telvanni are already known for not caring about the people who live within their towers, yet alone those living beneath their towers. But in the House the end factor is POWER. The more powerful you are, the more important you are. If you can kill someone, then you were right. That's why in House Telvanni you can simply kill the other leads of the House in cold blood and not expelled, unlike any other House or faction. So he should be pretty much a retardedly high level, super decked out in crazy gear, have some type of artifact for a weapon, and cast insanely powerful spells. But he's just indisposed in an aether-istic way at the moment.
Me and Gnomey also went over the fact that perhaps the Telvanni don't care much about gold or anything, and thus would reward the player with enchanted trinkets, since they are practically hoarders with all things magical. Tomes, spells, knowledge, amulets, rings, pieces of enchanted armor, all types of magical things are used as their currency. So they won't mind parting with a trinket or two to reward the player. Keep this in mind, as the House doesn't operate like any other House in Morrowind, but they still do need to have someone who is smart, cunning, and STRONG to be the actual Archmagister, as there are still many political and inter-racial and provincial issues to attend to, no matter how bizarre the House as a whole is. The only thing that differs is how the Telvanni GO ABOUT addressing the issues.
Honestly, I wish Why was here because he had Dral all fleshed out and it was far more interesting than what I had posted up above. He didn't really care for the mundane political aspects of the house but he was both feared and respected as a leader.
The fight he would do is crazy, we had it scripted to where he'd cast a spell that duplicates himself and is just incredibly bad ass. I'll ask Why to send me the notes he took. He discovered pocket realms and has been absent for a long time. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.
Also, I agree with Telvanni not caring much for gold. Also, faction reward quests towards the end should probably be enchanted trinkets that help prepare you for the final fight with him.
Ironed Maidens wrote:
Me and Gnomey also went over the fact that perhaps the Telvanni don't care much about gold or anything, and thus would reward the player with enchanted trinkets, since they are practically hoarders with all things magical. Tomes, spells, knowledge, amulets, rings, pieces of enchanted armor, all types of magical things are used as their currency. So they won't mind parting with a trinket or two to reward the player.
Wasn't it how it was in vanilla? House Telvanni was the best house to join primarily because they gave you some really powerful magical items. Shit like Aryon's Helper, Ring of Equity, Gothren's Cephalopod Helm, the feather-enchanted Daedric Armor, and the Robe of the Drake's Pride (well, the quest was to retrieve it, but only an idiot wouldn't keep it for themselves). I think this even made them unbalanced. Hlaalu gave you gold, but its really easy to get as much gold as you'd ever need. Redoran gave you a few artifacts, but they were nowhere near as good as Telvanni's, and most of their early quests have no or little reward.
Dreadnautilus wrote:Wasn't it how it was in vanilla? House Telvanni was the best house to join primarily because they gave you some really powerful magical items.
It was just an idea that seems to be carrying over to TR as well, sticking by Telvanni lore and personality.
Also, I feel it's important to note (and I can't stress this enough) but House Telvanni is NOT a priority right now at all and as sad as I am to say it probably won't be addressed for years to come. So I wouldn't worry about any of this as everything is liable to change (and probably will for that matter.)
it's nice to see this thread open again, so here are some random ideas.
the highest of telvanni wizards rival or even eclipse then power of the tribunal, if cooperating with one another. they just squabble over 100 year old disputes and patents, along with studies. imagine if you gave Nicola Tesla and infinite budget, and stuck him in the same hypothetical room with an equally funded Edison and Archimedes.
things would not go smoothly.
one thing i want to solidify is the more rural aspect of the telvanni. these guys are the reason silt striders are a thing. they herd the beasts. they are masters of bug herding and the more exotic aspects of morrowind. my thinking is that instead of having some large overarching company that manages all the bug herding, having small towns in the more remote center parts of telvanni land (as telvanni cities are often in ports) with at most 15 houses and one large construct (possibly a temple to the daedra ((a practice taken from house dres))) these small towns would be sponsored by the local telvanni lord, and would provide the income for him.
one last thing; telvanni worshiping the tribunal makes no sense BUT telvanni worshiping daedra, totally makes sense.
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
I just registered today, obviously my opinion is not worth too much, but I really felt the need to chime in here.
Something I have noticed when reading this thread is that it seems like some of this is perhaps being "over-thought", if you will. We already have satisfactory explanations for how the Telvanni Mouths operate.
According to in game dialogue, Mouths are expected to represent their Master's wishes on the council. When they are presented with a particularly difficult or unusual issue, or if they are unsure of their Master's thoughts on the matter, they will delay action and refer the issue to their patron.
I see no reason for completely throwing this perfectly good explanation of their role out the window and making Mouths into mindless zombies who have experienced a "mind wipe".
Not only would this not sit well with anyone at all, let alone a fiercely individualistic society such as the Telvanni (and Dunmeri society as a whole), it also simply seems like a huge deviation from established lore for no particular reason whatsoever.
Aside from the impracticality of such a system, it is wholly unnecessary. Since the Council is a deliberative body which is often slow to act, Mouths are able to simply communicate with their patrons and other Masters using couriers and coded dispatches (which both TR and vanilla quests have the player delivering, I might add). For more urgent issues, it can be assumed that Telvanni Mouths are capable of teleportation magic and possibly there are forms of magickal communication as well.
Keep in mind that Telvanni Masters live for centuries; the minor issues which the Council concerns itself will often go away if simply ignored, while all but the most urgent and pressing matters can be debated on and deferred for years with little consequence (from the Master's point of view, at least).
As to the purpose of a Mouth, we already have that pretty well established in existing lore; the Masters are simply too busy and quite frankly don't care enough to concern themselves with day to day administrative business. Each Master, much like today's politicians, have their handful of "pet" issues and political enemies and allies, but are otherwise not particularly interested in the political goings-on.
Protection of the Masters from each other is perhaps a nice side-effect, however the relative high-risk low-reward nature of instigating a magickal battle with another Telvanni Master (aside from Magister v Archmagister battles) means that even if each Master sat on the council daily, open fighting would certainly be a very rare occurrence.
Last edited by ObligatoryUsername on Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
ObligatoryUsername wrote:
Not only would this not sit well with anyone at all, let alone a fiercely individualistic society such as the Telvanni (and Dunmeri society as a whole).
I'd hesitate to call the Dunmer individualistic outside of Hlaalu and Telvanni. Their culture reeks of putting tradition over the ambition of individuals.
ObligatoryUsername wrote:
Not only would this not sit well with anyone at all, let alone a fiercely individualistic society such as the Telvanni (and Dunmeri society as a whole).
I'd hesitate to call the Dunmer individualistic outside of Hlaalu and Telvanni. Their culture reeks of putting tradition over the ambition of individuals.
While this is entirely an aside with regards to my main points, I should probably explain myself a bit so that this doesn't become something people latch on to when reading my post.
Dunmeri society seems to be primarily centered around the extended family/clan unit which is commonly referred to as a "House". There are minor and major houses as well as the five "Great" houses which to my understanding are made up of confederations of the first two types of houses which are bound together by familial ties and common values and ways of life. An example of a major house (at least, on Vvardenfell) would be the Andrano, who boast 13 known members, their own family tomb, and are typically seen as members of the Great House Redoran. A minor house on Vvardenfell would be the Hlaalo, who lack their own Tomb and have exactly two members, one being the late Ralen Hlaalo of Hlaalo Manor, who was a member of Great House Hlaalu, with the other being a smuggler in Nissintu, a cave in Molag Amur.
While the Dunmer at large are not exactly "individualistic" in the same sense as the Telvanni, they seem to my eye to be much more concerned with the advancement of their own "House", the loose family-clan which they belong to, than that of the "Great" house which their personal House is a small part of. This is similar to OTL tribal or clan-based societies which were part of a larger confederation. A good example of this would be the early Roman Republic, where the advancement of one's family was often more important than the advancement of the "state" agenda itself, with internecine familial rivalries often having deleterious effects on war efforts or attempts to enact necessary political reforms.
So, to my original point; why would any Dunmer, let alone one belonging to the particularly individualistic Telvanni, submit to have their mind "wiped" and become a vessel for someone else's thoughts? Even if this dilemma could somehow be explained away, why is it necessary, since we already have a perfectly adequate explanation of how Telvanni Mouths typically operate?
On Mouths getting mind-wiped: the way that discussion went is that some Mouths might be mind-wiped, but certainly not all of them. That being said, mind-wiping people is not at all out of character for Telvanni: while the Telvanni are very individualistic, they take a very might makes right approach to that individualism. If you can't defend yourself from getting mind-wiped, you clearly deserved to be mind-wiped. If you don't want to be mind-wiped, become strong enough to avoid it; killing your patron first, for example, is a great way to avoid getting mind-wiped. Mind-wiping him first, even better.
And so the answer as to why a Patron might mind-wipe a Mouth though there are other alternatives? Because he can.
Dral is Archmagister because he can do whatever he wants, basically. Nobody has ever challenged his ability to do so and survived. He has no responsibilities; if he wants to spend millennia away in another plane he can. If being Archmagister is his particular hobby he might care about being present, and there storylines of his being kept from returning to Nirn might work, but I don't really think that makes for an effective storyline, as it wouldn't really reveal the internal flaw of House Telvanni, which is a major purpose of House questlines. His becoming Archmagister because he's most powerful and then effectively vacating the spot and creating a power vacuum because he feels like it, and the other Magisters just rolling with the situation rather than doing something about it, at least until the player comes along, pretty nicely encapsulates the flaws of the Telvanni system.
The whole deal about the Telvanni is that they are fundamentally anarchic and individualistic, displaying none of the clan structure which otherwise pretty much defines the Dunmer, but they banded together into an organization. I do not think any one Telvanni is as powerful as any one of the Tribunal, but taken as a while it's a different story. These individuals essentially seceded from Tribunal society because they could, and challenged the early, blooming Temple to stop them. The Temple either could not or would not. If the Telvanni had not banded together, considering how powerful the Temple was back then, with the Tribunal at full might, things might have ended up very differently. Ever since then, however, the pretense of any sort of unity has run counter to the reality. Telvanni is a mock-House.
And at this point I can provide my answer to the question of what House Telvanni can offer Tribunal society in terms of determined law: they fulfill the archetypal role of the court jester in medieval Europe. They are the dissenter. They represent those who rebel against society and, by being given a name and a place, the Indoril believe them to be contained.
A few other points from reading the last few posts:
Telvanni are not scientists. They don't write theses, they don't put out patents. They might steal each others' research, but only to become more powerful, not so that they can be published in a scientific journal and get research funding or something.
For Telvanni, research tends to be one of two things, if not both: a way to gain power and a way to pass the centuries.
This is one of the main differences between how the Telvanni and the Mages Guild play out. It's the Mages Guild that cares about research for advancement and such, and generally it's the Mages Guild that will try and steal each others' research to get ahead. It's in the Mages Guild where you'll find your Nicola Teslas and Thomas Edisons. While Telvanni might do so in certain circumstances, generally they'll be confident enough in their own power to simply eliminate their rival and his research with him.
In the same vein, Telvanni do not worship Daedra. Why would they? Worshiping means admitting to inferiority; to submit oneself to another. That runs counter to the Telvanni philosophy. Daedra, like other Magisters, are powerful; they can be a force to be reckoned with, but can also prove useful allies. Telvanni tend to see everything in terms of whether it could be a useful tool to their own advancement or not. The Daedra are generally evaluated as useful tools, the Tribunal generally not. Most eventually recognize the player as a useful tool, certainly Aryon does, most if not all don't recognize the Empire as such.
Which brings me to another point where I feel the Telvanni are often misrepresented: they are not a tight-knit organization. They are not really politically-minded. They only care about their rivals. If some Telvanni Magisters recognize the Tribunal as rivals, they might care about the expansion of the Temple. If some Telvanni Magisters recognize Indoril elders as rivals, they might care about the expansion of House Indoril. If some Telvanni Magisters recognize the Emperor or Duchess of Firewatch as rivals, they might care about the expansion of the Empire, and same thing for the Mages Guild. In all other cases, those groups are just babble; just insects writhing about on the ground wrapped up in their own affairs, and not worth the Magister's while. The Telvanni are fundamentally self-absorbed and couldn't care less about external affairs.
ObligatoryUsername wrote:[spoiler]I just registered today, obviously my opinion is not worth too much, but I really felt the need to chime in here.
Something I have noticed when reading this thread is that it seems like some of this is perhaps being "over-thought", if you will. We already have satisfactory explanations for how the Telvanni Mouths operate.
According to in game dialogue, Mouths are expected to represent their Master's wishes on the council. When they are presented with a particularly difficult or unusual issue, or if they are unsure of their Master's thoughts on the matter, they will delay action and refer the issue to their patron.
I see no reason for completely throwing this perfectly good explanation of their role out the window and making Mouths into mindless zombies who have experienced a "mind wipe".
Not only would this not sit well with anyone at all, let alone a fiercely individualistic society such as the Telvanni (and Dunmeri society as a whole), it also simply seems like a huge deviation from established lore for no particular reason whatsoever.
Aside from the impracticality of such a system, it is wholly unnecessary. Since the Council is a deliberative body which is often slow to act, Mouths are able to simply communicate with their patrons and other Masters using couriers and coded dispatches (which both TR and vanilla quests have the player delivering, I might add). For more urgent issues, it can be assumed that Telvanni Mouths are capable of teleportation magic and possibly there are forms of magickal communication as well.
Keep in mind that Telvanni Masters live for centuries; the minor issues which the Council concerns itself will often go away if simply ignored, while all but the most urgent and pressing matters can be debated on and deferred for years with little consequence (from the Master's point of view, at least).
As to the purpose of a Mouth, we already have that pretty well established in existing lore; the Masters are simply too busy and quite frankly don't care enough to concern themselves with day to day administrative business. Each Master, much like today's politicians, have their handful of "pet" issues and political enemies and allies, but are otherwise not particularly interested in the political goings-on.
Protection of the Masters from each other is perhaps a nice side-effect, however the relative high-risk low-reward nature of instigating a magickal battle with another Telvanni Master (aside from Magister v Archmagister battles) means that even if each Master sat on the council daily, open fighting would certainly be a very rare occurrence.[/spoiler]
ObligatoryUsername wrote:[spoiler]
Dreadnautilus wrote:
ObligatoryUsername wrote:
Not only would this not sit well with anyone at all, let alone a fiercely individualistic society such as the Telvanni (and Dunmeri society as a whole).
I'd hesitate to call the Dunmer individualistic outside of Hlaalu and Telvanni. Their culture reeks of putting tradition over the ambition of individuals.
While this is entirely an aside with regards to my main points, I should probably explain myself a bit so that this doesn't become something people latch on to when reading my post.
Dunmeri society seems to be primarily centered around the extended family/clan unit which is commonly referred to as a "House". There are minor and major houses as well as the five "Great" houses which to my understanding are made up of confederations of the first two types of houses which are bound together by familial ties and common values and ways of life. An example of a major house (at least, on Vvardenfell) would be the Andrano, who boast 13 known members, their own family tomb, and are typically seen as members of the Great House Redoran. A minor house on Vvardenfell would be the Hlaalo, who lack their own Tomb and have exactly two members, one being the late Ralen Hlaalo of Hlaalo Manor, who was a member of Great House Hlaalu, with the other being a smuggler in Nissintu, a cave in Molag Amur.
While the Dunmer at large are not exactly "individualistic" in the same sense as the Telvanni, they seem to my eye to be much more concerned with the advancement of their own "House", the loose family-clan which they belong to, than that of the "Great" house which their personal House is a small part of. This is similar to OTL tribal or clan-based societies which were part of a larger confederation. A good example of this would be the early Roman Republic, where the advancement of one's family was often more important than the advancement of the "state" agenda itself, with internecine familial rivalries often having deleterious effects on war efforts or attempts to enact necessary political reforms.
So, to my original point; why would any Dunmer, let alone one belonging to the particularly individualistic Telvanni, submit to have their mind "wiped" and become a vessel for someone else's thoughts? Even if this dilemma could somehow be explained away, why is it necessary, since we already have a perfectly adequate explanation of how Telvanni Mouths typically operate?[/spoiler]
Welcome to the forums. These two were excellent posts, the content of both I very much agree with.
Especially the summary of Dunmer clan and house strucutres within the great house structures is something I'm happy to see - this is a side of Dunmer society not really touched upon by either TR or the vanilla game.
A small comment on the side: isn't telepathy supposed to be a no-no in TES? It is stated in the game that even the Psijics were puzzled by the ability of the Dwemer to communicate over distance (strongly implied ingame to actually be radio communication).
EJRS wrote:A small comment on the side: isn't telepathy supposed to be a no-no in TES? It is stated in the game that even the Psijics were puzzled by the ability of the Dwemer to communicate over distance (strongly implied ingame to actually be radio communication).
I'm not entirely sure this is really the case:
Doors of Oblivion wrote:The Psijics and Dwemer can (in the Dwemer's case, perhaps I should say, could) connect with the minds of others, and converse miles apart - a skill that is sometimes called telepathy.
Over the course of my employment, Zenas and I developed such a link between one another.
Chargen quiz wrote:
There is a lot of heated discussion at the local tavern over a grouped of people called 'Telepaths'. They have been hired by certain City-State kings. Rumor has it these Telepaths read a person's mind and tell their lord whether a follower is telling the truth or not.
Chimarvamidium wrote:In this legend and in others, there is a suggestion that the Dwemer race as a whole had some sort of silent and magickal communication. There are records of the Psijic Order which suggest they, too, share this secret.
You are right, the Psijics are said to have had similar abilities:
Another aspect of this legend that scholars like myself find interesting is the mention of "the Calling." In this legend and in others, there is a suggestion that the Dwemer race as a whole had some sort of silent and magickal communication. There are records of the Psijic Order which suggest they, too, share this secret. Whatever the case, there are no documented spells of "calling."
Both Telvayns first quote and the full quote above supports it as something very rare, known almost exclusively by the Psijics and Dwemer. The vacuum tubes and coherers found in Dwemer ruins strongly suggest that in the case of the dwemer, this is radio technology. The chargen quote, though...but those are hypothetical scenarios made to test you character.
Gnomey wrote:[spoiler]On Mouths getting mind-wiped: the way that discussion went is that some Mouths might be mind-wiped, but certainly not all of them. That being said, mind-wiping people is not at all out of character for Telvanni: while the Telvanni are very individualistic, they take a very might makes right approach to that individualism. If you can't defend yourself from getting mind-wiped, you clearly deserved to be mind-wiped. If you don't want to be mind-wiped, become strong enough to avoid it; killing your patron first, for example, is a great way to avoid getting mind-wiped. Mind-wiping him first, even better.
And so the answer as to why a Patron might mind-wipe a Mouth though there are other alternatives? Because he can.
[/spoiler]
I don't dispute any of this. I don't have a problem with maybe one Master being particularly fed up with his Mouth, spurring him to do this sort of thing. I do have a problem with it becoming standard practice, since we have no evidence that this is the case.
Since this would require constant input from the Master to the Mouth, it also runs contrary to my (and your) point about the Telvanni not really caring about politics aside from their pet issues and attempts to foil their political rivals.
Why would a self-absorbed, politically disinterested Telvanni Master force himself to chime in on every mundane matter in the council by making his Mouth a marionette? The benefits would be far outweighed by the maddening tedium of listening to every discussion about a new riverstrider port, which smith has failed to obtain his proper permits, which guar herder has not paid his taxes in over a decade, which new village should be granted a charter or who should take over as deputy treasury secretary.
If there is some sort of "on-off switch" mechanism in this whole mind-wipe scenario, how would the Master know when to switch his Mouth on? What is to stop his rivals' Mouths from simply waiting until the Master has "tuned out" and his Mouth is a drooling mess to propose any policies which he might normally oppose? It seems like in order to make use of this he would have to constantly listen to everything that was going on in the Parliament of Bugs.
If anything, this is the action an unusually politically-minded Master would take, in order to micromanage affairs. Perhaps he misses being a Mouth, but his current job was practically foisted upon him due to the untimely death of his Master? I can't see the average Telvanni wanting to deal with this, however.
Hardly any Telvanni will be interested in discussing "a new riverstrider port, which smith has failed to obtain his proper permits, which guar herder has not paid his taxes in over a decade, which new village should be granted a charter or who should take over as deputy treasury secretary." That stuff would probably not be discussed in the council. In American political terms, I think the Telvanni would be incredibly 'small government' in approach. The only topics that would be brought up in the parliament would be the pet projects of the individual wizards they feel they need the parliament to know/care about, which means they might not discuss stuff as a parliament for long periods of time and even when they do most Mouths could for all intents and purposes be drooling messes because neither they nor their Patrons have any reason to care.
That being said, magic is magic. Especially when it comes to the Telvanni, I think it's counterproductive to over-analyze the workings of the magic, as then it would no longer be magic. Perhaps the Mouths are set up as two way radios that Magisters can tune out one way or the other. Perhaps in practice those Magisters are constantly bombarded by council babble. They wouldn't be the only councilors constantly bombarded by babble; it wouldn't matter. Maybe they can [url=http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2014/AnSME7.gif]program[/url] their Mouths to automatically veto any decision they're not paying attention to. They're the Telvanni. They're powerful. They can figure that stuff out.
Gnomey wrote:Hardly any Telvanni will be interested in discussing "a new riverstrider port, which smith has failed to obtain his proper permits, which guar herder has not paid his taxes in over a decade, which new village should be granted a charter or who should take over as deputy treasury secretary."
How do these things get decided, then? Do they simply allow complete anarchy? This is not supported at all, as their towns are highly regulated and outlanders are not even allowed to enter without proper permits.
Gnomey wrote:They're the Telvanni. They're powerful. They can figure that stuff out.
This can be used to handwave literally any logical fallacy. However, we see in game and in books/lore that magic has benefits and drawbacks. It makes little sense to just say "okay, they can do whatever they want with impunity". If you say that, then there is really no limit to the outlandish ideas that you could make up for the Telvanni. The way this is currently presented, however, is that the Telvanni would be constantly bombarded with nonsense from their Mouth-conduit, OR they could be politically outmaneuvered by their rivals if they refuse to listen. It simply doesn't make sense without resorting to "because a wizard did it" reasoning which is a very dangerous precedent to set.
For the first point: yes, they tend to allow complete anarchy. If they care about it, they might regulate some stuff, and the regulation in Sadrith Mora might be one such exception. I don't remember if it's ever specified if it's the parliament that made the decision as opposed to simply being the directive of Neloth or one of his influential retainers, though.
Generally, Telvanni don't care what goes on at the base of their towers. Velothi can build houses, merchants can come and go, smiths can set up shop and go bankrupt. If any of them annoy a Telvanni, however, the Telvanni may do something about it. Even then, though, there's generally no reason to bring the council into it.
And yes, magic can be used to handwave any logical fallacy; that's why it exists as a concept separate from science fiction. (Well, not to say science fiction doesn't handwave its own share of logical fallacies).
I don't think there are or should be any real limits to the outlandish ideas that could be made up for Telvanni; they are an outlandish House of an outlandish people in an outlandish world.
If there is a limit, it is that the ideas need to be interesting and fit the tone of the world, but that's incredibly subjective. I think Telvanni mind-controlling Mouths works. The game and lore already have command spells, though how precisely they function isn't made completely clear. I'd argue it doesn't need to be, and that in fact going into too much detail into the working of magic would sort of miss the point. In-game, the player has no real control over commanded actors, but that might just be a matter of implementation. More to the point, the Telvanni are near the top of the list of wizards who can do crazy stuff. They have power arguably rivaling the Tribunal, who are gods. It's true they don't have CHIM, but they seem to do quite well without it. One could argue that for them 'a wizard did it' isn't so much a handwave as established lore.
Gnomey wrote:For the first point: yes, they tend to allow complete anarchy. If they care about it, they might regulate some stuff, and the regulation in Sadrith Mora might be one such exception. I don't remember if it's ever specified if it's the parliament that made the decision as opposed to simply being the directive of Neloth or one of his influential retainers, though.
The Hospitatilty Papers state that they are "put forth under law by the Collective Articles of the Council of the Great House Telvanni" and that "Provided that if the said %PCName the %PCClass, %PCRace do not from time to time during that time, well and truly observe the Collective Articles of the Council of the Great House Telvanni, then this License shall presently cease, and be utterly void", implying some sort of federal law.
