I've decided to finally get back to looking at this again, as a lot of members seem really interested in seeing progress on Andothren. However, before I can propose anything as far as the layout of Andothren -- let alone the new quarters -- are concerned, the current interiors need to be looked at. I'll probably put a list of them together over the week.
I noticed, for example, that the amount of clutter in [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21809]i4-89[/url] (the building with the green outline) would more comfortably fill a much smaller interior. I also know some of my own early work is in Andothren, which is not a ringing endorsement by any means. (As a fun detail, my i4-85 tavern int.'s basement -- one of the buildings outlined in pink -- goes under the well in front of it. Which is a pretty silly detail).
There are also three interiors that are still missing and which I'll try to locate one last time before assuming they were never made.
Andothren [City]
Moderator: Lead Developers
Which ones are missing?Gnomey wrote:There are also three interiors that are still missing and which I'll try to locate one last time before assuming they were never made.
I made these two over a year ago and it appears they were never merged (as of v0.037):
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=314988]i4-462-Hla - Guild of Fighters[/url]
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=317434]i4-464-Hla - Dunmer home[/url]
If that's the actual case, there are probably more.
-
Yeti
- Lead Developer
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Is there a reason why it shouldn't have one? I guess the proximity to the FG HQ in Old Ebonheart could make the one in Andothren redundant.
When should we tackle revising the Andothren "[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24548]master plan[/url]," Gnomey? If we want to make progress on the city, creating a finalized concept should be high on the priority list. Even if people were to post what they like and don't like about what's currently written, it would help get the discussion started.
When should we tackle revising the Andothren "[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24548]master plan[/url]," Gnomey? If we want to make progress on the city, creating a finalized concept should be high on the priority list. Even if people were to post what they like and don't like about what's currently written, it would help get the discussion started.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
That, mainly -- I was thinking OE FG should handle contracts in Andothren. I don't know-know Andothren, however, so if you feel like a Fighters' Guild hall fits the town's concept and atmosphere I'm not passionately against it.Yeti wrote:Is there a reason why it shouldn't have one? I guess the proximity to the FG HQ in Old Ebonheart could make the one in Andothren redundant.
The main reason I was asking, though, is that it's hard to try and come up with a coherent overarching questline for the whole of the guild when one doesn't know of the locations of all the guildhalls. I was under the impression that this albeit old [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23508]Imperial Guilds thread from 2012[/url] was accurate at least in the sense that there wouldn't be guildhalls outside the locations listed in the thread.
(We might need a new list.)
My computer was offline for a while, so I'm late in replying to this.
As to the three missing interiors, as far as I can tell there are only three, and I think I may have identified them. (One is a ship that was probably just tossed over to the harbour to show that more ships should go there, and as such it probably never had an interior made). Several interiors have not been merged, including those you linked, but they have all been identified and mapped. I should be able to get the map up within a day or two.
I do think Andothren and Old Ebonheart should both have Fighters Guilds. While they're rather close to one another, they're not as close as the Balmora-Caldera-Ald-ruhn Mages Guilds, and they are pretty far apart when going by foot, given the absence of bridges across the Thirr north of Almas Thirr.
More to the point, the Andothren guild would probably be the only guild to operate in the Roth Roryn region, depending on whether we put a guildhall in Kartúr; and possibly the Armun Ashlands, depending on how far afield the guildhall in Kragenmar would operate.
The list of guildhalls is dated, and will probably only be more so in future. Our current lack of planning as far as guildhall locations are concerned is certainly an issue -- I ran into the same problem when considering the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24852]guild guide network[/url] -- but I'm not sure what the best solution is.
I'm starting to think it might be worthwhile to already discuss such matters in the applicable faction threads, but I think a certain amount of uncertainty will remain until we at least have operable -- if not finished -- planning documents for all major factions, regions and ideally cities, which we're nowhere near having.
As to revisiting the Andothren planning document, I first want to review what we have before we move on to updating our plans. At the moment, it is essentially still up-to-date.
As to the three missing interiors, as far as I can tell there are only three, and I think I may have identified them. (One is a ship that was probably just tossed over to the harbour to show that more ships should go there, and as such it probably never had an interior made). Several interiors have not been merged, including those you linked, but they have all been identified and mapped. I should be able to get the map up within a day or two.
I do think Andothren and Old Ebonheart should both have Fighters Guilds. While they're rather close to one another, they're not as close as the Balmora-Caldera-Ald-ruhn Mages Guilds, and they are pretty far apart when going by foot, given the absence of bridges across the Thirr north of Almas Thirr.
More to the point, the Andothren guild would probably be the only guild to operate in the Roth Roryn region, depending on whether we put a guildhall in Kartúr; and possibly the Armun Ashlands, depending on how far afield the guildhall in Kragenmar would operate.
The list of guildhalls is dated, and will probably only be more so in future. Our current lack of planning as far as guildhall locations are concerned is certainly an issue -- I ran into the same problem when considering the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24852]guild guide network[/url] -- but I'm not sure what the best solution is.
I'm starting to think it might be worthwhile to already discuss such matters in the applicable faction threads, but I think a certain amount of uncertainty will remain until we at least have operable -- if not finished -- planning documents for all major factions, regions and ideally cities, which we're nowhere near having.
As to revisiting the Andothren planning document, I first want to review what we have before we move on to updating our plans. At the moment, it is essentially still up-to-date.
Aeven and I took a fairly quick look at Andothren, including interiors. The city is in a far worse state than expected, between initially low-quality work, such as many of the interiors, it being a Sload WIP that was never finished and Swiftoak's patch-up. There are all sorts of random placement errors; caspers, at least one doorway that was left behind when the rest of the building was moved, random references sticking in buildings, floaters, many of the canal pieces not lining up, etc. The interiors also often have placement errors, though not to nearly the same extent, but they are often fairly empty and sometimes do not match their assigned exterior shell. Several may need to be redone entirely.
I'm still planning to make a more complete assessment, hopefully this weekend but I make no promises. This stuff needs to be sorted out before we can get any sensible work done on the city.
I've uploaded a complete map of Andothren interiors [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24327]here[/url], and Aeven has uploaded a new file with some notes [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24302&start=40]here[/url].
I'm still planning to make a more complete assessment, hopefully this weekend but I make no promises. This stuff needs to be sorted out before we can get any sensible work done on the city.
I've uploaded a complete map of Andothren interiors [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24327]here[/url], and Aeven has uploaded a new file with some notes [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24302&start=40]here[/url].
Preliminary list (in-game impressions only, claim names rather than cell IDs listed; refer to [url=http://i.imgur.com/bml7qDm.jpg]my map[/url]):
General notes, some of which I haven't bothered listing further down as they're common and I'd fix them anyway:
-the alpha map on the Alma banner does not appear to be working, the transparency just appearing as black. This is very apparent on the huge banner in the exterior.
-incorrect use of the Furn_De_Tapestry_M_01 Mephala/Morag Tong banner.
-the lighting looks off on the in_Hlaalu_wall static for me; especially apparent in the main Hlaalu council house interior, (TR_i4-114-Hla-1), which uses the static extensively. Makes that interior really hard to assess by making it look outright horrible and cobbled-together.
-one or two loaddoors are locked on the inside; that is, the player is barred from leaving the interior. This should almost never be the case; only the outside loaddoor should generally be locked.
-some doors are misaligned.
-some interiors that ought to have windows lack them.
-in some interiors, generally with one-tile storage rooms, the modder didn't pay attention to how the door opens, leading to the door bleeding with something in the room when open. Watch out for this; it's one of many reasons to test work in-game.
-I noticed quite a few mounted heads, but especially Bristlebacks for some reason. We may want to change that, though I don't think it's a huge problem or anything.
-there were three or four instances of a doormarker getting the player stuck.
[spoiler]TR_i4-59 - unlinked. This guard tower is to become a harbour admin building. It looks to be halfway through a re-purposing anyway. I'm thinking that -- as all the guard towers are rather empty in places -- what detailing there is could probably be moved over to them to pretty them up and as a sign of slavish devotion to prior work that isn't inherently awful.
TR_i4-60 - has an egregious bleeder (planter) in a rather empty room.
TR_i4-61
TR_i4-62 - rather empty.
TR_i4-63
TR_i4-64
TR_i4-65 - very basic.
TR_i4-66 - unlinked
TR_i4-67
TR_i4-68 - bed missing, lacks windows.
TR_i4-69
TR_i4-70 - what's with the random stuff in the middle of the room, like the lantern on a floating hook? I think the bed was also missing; I was distracted by the weirdness.
TR_i4-71 - unlinked
TR_i4-72 - lower door missing. The interior may be too big and empty.
TR_i4-73
TR_i4-74 - unlinked
TR_i4-75 - lower door missing. This interior has a jail; we may want to discuss that.
TR_i4-76 - unlinked. Missing balcony door.
TR_i4-77 - the make-shift potters' wheel can be replaced with our model. Had a mediocre fireplace, I think.
TR_i4-78 - unlinked. An interior trapdoor doormarker needs adjustment.
TR_i4-79
TR_i4-80
TR_i4-81 - a little empty, there are two chairs the player can't quite squeeze between, one of its columns is missing a quarter, and the interior seems a little iffy in general.
TR_i4-82 - lower door unlinked
TR_i4-83
TR_i4-84 - a touch empty
TR_i4-85 - a doorway at the top of a stairway caspers at the bottom.
TR_i4-86 - unlinked. Interior too big and empty?
TR_i4-87 - this one actually features a fireplace. Top inside loaddoor is locked for some reason.
TR_i4-88 - a little empty
TR_i4-89 - a little empty? Door misaligned.
TR_i4-90 - unlinked
TR_i4-91 - unlinked
TR_i4-92
TR_i4-93
TR_i4-94 - bucket bleeds into storage room door when the latter is opened.
TR_i4-95
TR_i4-96 - the temple should be one of the sites to see in the city, but it's largely empty, and currently has a Veloth focus when Veloth passed far to the south at Almas Thirr and this should now have an Alma focus if anything, and its tomb is hidden for some reason, and is really empty and -- in my opinion -- scrap-worthy.
TR_i4-108 - unlinked
TR_i4-109
TR_i4-110 - unlinked. Needs a little detailing?
TR_i4-111 - when storage room door is open, bleeds into guarscreen behind it.
TR_i4-112 - unlinked
TR_i4-113
TR_i4-114 - unlinked. Shadows on in_Hlaalu_wall odd, as noted above; the Hlaalu banners on the bottom floor bleed into the wall due to their animation. I think the interior was a little under-detailed.
TR_i4-114 DEPRECATED - not actually a bad interior. I assume this was just removed to make way for the council house.
TR_i4-115 - bed and rail block access to balcony; could use more detailing anyway.
TR_i4-116
TR_i4-117
TR_i4-118 - chair blocks access to bed.
TR_i4-119 - unlinked. Chair blocks access to counter, interior contains Mephala banner.
TR_i4-120 - a little empty, shelf blocks access to bed.
TR_i4-121
TR_i4-122
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 1 - deprecated; bad shell for apartment; rather empty
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 2 - deprecated
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 3 - deprecated. Imperial Talos Cult member arrested by order of Ocato. Wording on warrant not exactly stellar.
TR_i4-123
TR_i4-124 Dancing Cup
TR_i4-124 Trader - inside loaddoor locked for some reason. May be too large for its exterior shell.
TR_i4-125 - unlinked. This one has a fireplace. The interior lacks detailing.
TR_i4-126 - May be too large for its exterior shell.
TR Andothren, East Guard Tower 1 [i4-127] - lower door unlinked, lacks detail.
TR Andothren, East Guard Tower 2 [i4-127] - lower door unlinked, lacks detail. Missing bed.
TR_i4-305
TR_i4-460
TR_i4-461 - very empty/basic interior.
TR_i4-462 - could use a little more detailing.
TR_i4-463
TR_i4-464
TR_i4-465[/spoiler]
Anyway, as well as rounding off those notes with anything I stumble upon in my CS comb-over, I also plan to add the Hlaalu showcase interiors to the list.
General notes, some of which I haven't bothered listing further down as they're common and I'd fix them anyway:
-the alpha map on the Alma banner does not appear to be working, the transparency just appearing as black. This is very apparent on the huge banner in the exterior.
-incorrect use of the Furn_De_Tapestry_M_01 Mephala/Morag Tong banner.
-the lighting looks off on the in_Hlaalu_wall static for me; especially apparent in the main Hlaalu council house interior, (TR_i4-114-Hla-1), which uses the static extensively. Makes that interior really hard to assess by making it look outright horrible and cobbled-together.
-one or two loaddoors are locked on the inside; that is, the player is barred from leaving the interior. This should almost never be the case; only the outside loaddoor should generally be locked.
-some doors are misaligned.
-some interiors that ought to have windows lack them.
-in some interiors, generally with one-tile storage rooms, the modder didn't pay attention to how the door opens, leading to the door bleeding with something in the room when open. Watch out for this; it's one of many reasons to test work in-game.
-I noticed quite a few mounted heads, but especially Bristlebacks for some reason. We may want to change that, though I don't think it's a huge problem or anything.
-there were three or four instances of a doormarker getting the player stuck.
[spoiler]TR_i4-59 - unlinked. This guard tower is to become a harbour admin building. It looks to be halfway through a re-purposing anyway. I'm thinking that -- as all the guard towers are rather empty in places -- what detailing there is could probably be moved over to them to pretty them up and as a sign of slavish devotion to prior work that isn't inherently awful.
TR_i4-60 - has an egregious bleeder (planter) in a rather empty room.
TR_i4-61
TR_i4-62 - rather empty.
TR_i4-63
TR_i4-64
TR_i4-65 - very basic.
TR_i4-66 - unlinked
TR_i4-67
TR_i4-68 - bed missing, lacks windows.
TR_i4-69
TR_i4-70 - what's with the random stuff in the middle of the room, like the lantern on a floating hook? I think the bed was also missing; I was distracted by the weirdness.
TR_i4-71 - unlinked
TR_i4-72 - lower door missing. The interior may be too big and empty.
TR_i4-73
TR_i4-74 - unlinked
TR_i4-75 - lower door missing. This interior has a jail; we may want to discuss that.
TR_i4-76 - unlinked. Missing balcony door.
TR_i4-77 - the make-shift potters' wheel can be replaced with our model. Had a mediocre fireplace, I think.
TR_i4-78 - unlinked. An interior trapdoor doormarker needs adjustment.
TR_i4-79
TR_i4-80
TR_i4-81 - a little empty, there are two chairs the player can't quite squeeze between, one of its columns is missing a quarter, and the interior seems a little iffy in general.
TR_i4-82 - lower door unlinked
TR_i4-83
TR_i4-84 - a touch empty
TR_i4-85 - a doorway at the top of a stairway caspers at the bottom.
TR_i4-86 - unlinked. Interior too big and empty?
TR_i4-87 - this one actually features a fireplace. Top inside loaddoor is locked for some reason.
TR_i4-88 - a little empty
TR_i4-89 - a little empty? Door misaligned.
TR_i4-90 - unlinked
TR_i4-91 - unlinked
TR_i4-92
TR_i4-93
TR_i4-94 - bucket bleeds into storage room door when the latter is opened.
TR_i4-95
TR_i4-96 - the temple should be one of the sites to see in the city, but it's largely empty, and currently has a Veloth focus when Veloth passed far to the south at Almas Thirr and this should now have an Alma focus if anything, and its tomb is hidden for some reason, and is really empty and -- in my opinion -- scrap-worthy.
TR_i4-108 - unlinked
TR_i4-109
TR_i4-110 - unlinked. Needs a little detailing?
TR_i4-111 - when storage room door is open, bleeds into guarscreen behind it.
TR_i4-112 - unlinked
TR_i4-113
TR_i4-114 - unlinked. Shadows on in_Hlaalu_wall odd, as noted above; the Hlaalu banners on the bottom floor bleed into the wall due to their animation. I think the interior was a little under-detailed.
TR_i4-114 DEPRECATED - not actually a bad interior. I assume this was just removed to make way for the council house.
TR_i4-115 - bed and rail block access to balcony; could use more detailing anyway.
TR_i4-116
TR_i4-117
TR_i4-118 - chair blocks access to bed.
TR_i4-119 - unlinked. Chair blocks access to counter, interior contains Mephala banner.
TR_i4-120 - a little empty, shelf blocks access to bed.
TR_i4-121
TR_i4-122
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 1 - deprecated; bad shell for apartment; rather empty
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 2 - deprecated
TR_i4-122, building 56, apartment 3 - deprecated. Imperial Talos Cult member arrested by order of Ocato. Wording on warrant not exactly stellar.
TR_i4-123
TR_i4-124 Dancing Cup
TR_i4-124 Trader - inside loaddoor locked for some reason. May be too large for its exterior shell.
TR_i4-125 - unlinked. This one has a fireplace. The interior lacks detailing.
TR_i4-126 - May be too large for its exterior shell.
TR Andothren, East Guard Tower 1 [i4-127] - lower door unlinked, lacks detail.
TR Andothren, East Guard Tower 2 [i4-127] - lower door unlinked, lacks detail. Missing bed.
TR_i4-305
TR_i4-460
TR_i4-461 - very empty/basic interior.
TR_i4-462 - could use a little more detailing.
TR_i4-463
TR_i4-464
TR_i4-465[/spoiler]
Anyway, as well as rounding off those notes with anything I stumble upon in my CS comb-over, I also plan to add the Hlaalu showcase interiors to the list.