The big picture

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:05 am

I've noticed that "Riverbridge" is on your list... Prometheus made a town called Riverbridge that is in Morrowind... i guess we'll just have to give it a more Argonian name.

Or change the name of Prom's town to a more Dunmer name... seeing as how the one in Morrowind is not an Imperial settlement.

Jacurutu · Post by **Jacurutu** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:36 am

Sounds good to me . . . anyone know if there's any writings or lore that would go against this setup?

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:16 pm

Maureth, I think you're wrong, morrowind used to get it's slaves by going on slaveraid in the upper black marsh, and there's been no indication there is argonian sub races

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:51 pm

I would think that the Argonians are similar to tadpoles until the Hist tree decides what they are to be. Or something similar. Some small, shapeless, slimey thing.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:10 pm

Most of the Lore of this can be seen in the Argonia thread, that backs up (to some degree) most of these proposals.

That being said, you might want to start linking to those images, Stumpy. They're massive and once it breaks the tables, you have to scroll to the side to read everything.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:12 pm

In a thread in the official lore forums, there was a thread a while back called "do Argonians lay eggs?" or something like that. At any rate, a dev made some interesting comments about the nature of argonians. Essentially, he said that the hist trees granted the argonians incredible adaptability, so they could lay eggs or not as the situation suited them. I assume this applies to other traits as well. So I'm pretty sure there are no real 'sub races' as they are not separate races, but rather argonians in different regions would be adapted to that region and look slightly different. Of course this distinction is fairly academic at this point.

Also, Stumpy, I doubt the northern Argonians would be very much influenced by imperial or dunmer culture. They'd have no love for the empire since they do nothing about the slave raiders, and the dunmer are their bitter enemies. This would make them more xenophobic than other argonians, not less. But I agree they are likely skilled warriors, and probably nomadic.

Furthermore, if tales of creation ssuch as the Annotated Annuad are anywhere close to the truth, argonians are certainly the eldest of all the current races of Tamriel, and perhaps the Ehlnofey themselves. As such, I doubt they'd be as primitive as either they or anyone else would have you believe. They wouldn't so much be advanced in the imperial sense but still.

Dreekius, the Argonian bartender in Redguard, effectively says he's away from Argonia because the Argonians need to keep close track of world events. I doubt if argonia was a bunch of disorganized, fragmented tribes, that they would send scouts to keep tabs on the outside world. THis implies some sort of organization among most, if not all argonians. Not a government per se, certainly no imperial style heirarchy, but I'll wager that if every single argonian warrrior needed to be a certain place, in a few days, they'd end up there,

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:23 pm

Perhaps the hist tree spew out some pollen to communicate

Marauth AlaÃƒÂ-RaÃƒÂ¡n · Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:35 pm

Zalzidrax: the Argonians are descended from the Hist - where the F did you get the idea that they're the Ehlnofey? The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of the Aldmer and the Ayleids and also of men, they looked almost exactly as the Ayleids do now and very, very similar to how the Altmer look, only the Altmer have gotten taller over generations (the Dunmer are the same height as they were when they were Chimer and hence when they were Aldmer so obviously the Altmer must have become taller).

The Argonians as far as we are aware from the creation myths, created after the war between the two groups of Ehlnofey so while they are older than the sub-divisions of the Ehlnofey into Aldmer, Nord, Yokudan, Akaviri etc. they are not older than the 'civilised' races themselves who existed at least from the begining of the merethic era and if you believe everything in the Anuad then they existed before Nirn - but that's a stretch given what we know of the nature of the gods as ancestors to men and elves.

This is getting off topic so to drag it kicking and screaming back - the Argonians, regardless of their age as a defined species - are not as advanced as you would believe, they have great mastery over skills that do not require any form of technology, and their shamans would seem to be quite powerful mages, but they have not developed, in the classical sense, any kind of civilisation, they have never made a nation of their kind, they have never had a single ruler, and the majority of them seem content to sit in their jungles worshipping the Hist trees - the very few who are out in the world as free men may have some form of organisation, but that appears to be the exception rather than the rule. Besides which they are now under complete Imperial domination all thoose cities that have sprung up since the Septims' arrival they can at least keep a close eye on the lighter areas of the jungle as they are used to similar conditions in the jungles of Nibenay that run along the red river from Cyrodiil City to the Topal Bay.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:59 pm

Marauth AlaÃƒÂ-RaÃƒÂ¡n wrote: Zalzidrax: the Argonians are descended from the Hist - where the F did you get the idea that they're the Ehlnofey? The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of the Aldmer and the Ayleids and also of men, they looked almost exactly as the Ayleids do now and very, very similar to how the Altmer look, only the Altmer have gotten taller over generations (the Dunmer are the same height as they were when they were Chimer and hence when they were Aldmer so obviously the Altmer must have become taller).

The Argonians as far as we are aware from the creation myths, created after the war between the two groups of Ehlnofey so while they are older than the sub-divisions of the Ehlnofey into Aldmer, Nord, Yokudan, Akaviri etc. they are not older than the 'civilised' races themselves who existed at least from the begining of the merethic era and if you believe everything in the Anuad then they existed before Nirn - but that's a stretch given what we know of the nature of the gods as ancestors to men and elves.

I never said they were the Ehlnofey, I said they were older than them according to the annotated annuad. There is next to nothing about the argonians in any other creation myth, so the annuad is really the only source to go on on this.

Marauth AlaÃƒÂ-RaÃƒÂ¡n wrote:
This is getting off topic so to drag it kicking and screaming back - the Argonians, regardless of their age as a defined species - are not as advanced as you would believe, they have great mastery over skills that do not require any form of technology, and their shamans would seem to be quite powerful mages, but they have not developed, in the classical sense, any kind of civilisation, they have never made a nation of their kind, they have never had a single ruler, and the majority of them seem content to sit in their jungles worshipping the Hist trees - the very few who are out in the world as free men may have some form of organisation, but that appears to be the exception rather than the rule. Besides which they are now under complete Imperial domination all thoose cities that have sprung up since the Septims' arrival they can at least keep a close eye on the lighter areas of the jungle as they are used to similar conditions in the jungles of Nibenay that run along the red river from Cyrodiil City to the Topal Bay.

That's what I meant when I said they are not advanced in the imperial sense. But my point was they don't NEED to do be advanced in that manner. And if you think they are under complete imperial domination, when's the last time an imperial force succeeded in taming the jungles?

Marauth AlaÃƒÂ-RaÃƒÂ¡n · Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:28 pm

Under Tiber Septim all the provinces bar Morrowind were subdued by military force - all of them - including Black Marsh, sure it took Numidium to do the job but then they needed that to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion (of this pamphlete, this regime, this lunacy

)

Furthermore, if tales of creation ssuch as the Annotated Annuad are anywhere close to the truth, argonians are certainly the eldest of all the current races of Tamriel, and perhaps the Ehlnofey themselves

Your words exactly, I see now that you made a grammatical error, but it was such that it appeared that you were suggesting that the Argonians are the Ehlnofey.

Paladinlover · Post by **Paladinlover** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:37 pm

Umm, Morrowind wasn't added by force. It was added by a treaty that bound it to the Empire. This is why the houses still have exceptional power over the land and that's also why slavery still exists on Morrowind.

Thankfully, there's the Twin lamps and the mods for them that allow you to get rid of slavery!

Jacurutu · Post by **Jacurutu** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:37 am

all the provinces bar Morrowind were subdued by military force

"bar" means "except" or "save"

Paladinlover · Post by **Paladinlover** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:19 am

I didn't read that! Sorry.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:39 am

errr....once skyrim's done, how are you gonna choose the person who does the next province? By poll, or the admins, or some1 comes and says i wanna do it, and they get it?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:40 am

Someone just says he/shes going to do it and does ti.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:42 am

k, thanks.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:46 am

The map's pretty, but it's got some flaws. Argonia is much smaller than Morrowind, and Cyrodiil is far larger than any other province. If the length of Hammerfell and High Rock was extended, along with all the southern provinces, I think it would be more acurate. Argonia should also be smaller, I'm just not sure out to make it so.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:39 pm

[url=http://img56.exs.cx/img56/8845/roadscitiesandvillages7ip.jpg][img]http://img56.exs.cx/img56/8845/roadscitiesandvillages7ip.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I'm having trouble placing the city labels where they belong. There don't seem to be any maps suggesting which name goes with which city... Could anyone help me out with this one? I don't care if you use MSpaint or whatever, just put the names on the map I've supplied and sent it back to me so that I can continue working....

And Sload Lord, you may want to switch 'proceeded' to 'preceeded' in your sig.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:26 pm

Here's a WIP of the new Big Picture.

It contains cities, roads, etc. Thoughts?

[url=http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproads18si.jpg][img]http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8370/minibigmaproads18si.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:29 am

Well, the correct spelling for the province of the Khajiit is :

Elsweyr

Other than that it looks good. maybe you could smooth out the water( white space) around Cyrodiil City? At it's current state, it's quite poor, and it's easy to tell it was done in MS Paint.

P.S. Are you using Stumpy's map for Argonia?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:40 am

UPDATE: Adds countless cities and Skyrim.

The next version will have the cities from Stumpy's Map.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:56 pm

Gah! Forgot the pic on the last post!

Anyway, here is another update, this time with a pic. It contains elements from stumpy's map.

[url]http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproads10hi.jpg[/url]

Post by **Swiftoak** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:27 am

Oooo, I'm beginning to like this. It could prove useful for when i make the Hammerfell map. Blushes: I forgot there was a Fang lair. Its a WIP, i'll post it later.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:37 am

Latest map. Its mostly a backup since I worked my arse off on this.

http://img349.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproads15ph.jpg

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:32 am

That is looking awesome, and yeah, it sure does look like you worked your arse off. ;) Are you keeping it all in layers so you can lift the text off if required?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:38 am

Yes, all text has its own layer. I can lift it off when needed. Some minor villages will be deleted and there will be two versions: a TR version and a Lore-friendly version that will be submitted to TIL.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:14 pm

Are you responsibe for ALL provinces?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:36 pm

This is a totally separate map from the rest. It's there to give people an on idea what to put when they are making super-detailed maps of provinces.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:43 pm

Okay, good, because you're helping me make my map of Hammerfell.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:23 pm

New version up: this one being Lore Friendly. Also has a *gasp* SCALE!

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproadslore15el.jpg

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:26 am

This will be the last version for a while. I will also post this on the Lore Forum of the ESF. This version adds rivers to Skyrim.

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproadslore14jk.jpg

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:21 am

Alright. It's finished. It includes Yokuda, Tamriel, and all lands in between.

http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproadslore17et.jpg

CommonsNat · Post by **CommonsNat** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:25 am

Excellent work Arth. These are excellent maps.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:08 am

This is such great work. What is its actual size in PSD?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:11 am

It's 2000 pixils in width and about 600 pixils in height.

Guess what? Xan is going to put this on TIL!

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:24 am

Alright, there is a major update.

http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minibigmaproadslore27hp.jpg

Post by **Swiftoak** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:26 am

Yokuda, what race lives there?! And are we gonna do that too in TR?!

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:29 am

Yokuda is the homeland of the Redguards. Yokuda is only there for lore reasons. If, in a few centuries, we do finish Tamriel, we might start on other continents.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:30 am

Yokuda is where the Redguards are originally from. But there's also a group of Redguards called the Yokudans who are something like gypsies. I'm not sure of the difference in the histories, though I think the Redguards left Yokuda before it sunk, while the Yokudans came to Tamriel as refugees. They're the same race though.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:31 am

Are you saying I have to put that in my Hammerfell detail map?!