Lich Metamorphosis

[Haplo]

Mishka - Have you been on the new forums yet? if not, you need to go through the steps shown to re-activate your account for the new forums. The same password will work, but they couldn't just bring it over to the new forums, since the password was encrypted.

[Lord_Gallant]

My former post may have come off as harsh and I apologize. I was not directing that statement specifically towards you, Dagoth_Mishka, but at whoever is going to post on ES for lich lore. Well, the @mishka comment was, but not the sentence or two below it that was separated by a space and...oh, hell you know what I am talking about.

[Anonymous]

Do not strangle yourself about it. I understand. And I am not the one thats gonna post on ESF. I tried what Haplo said, and it didn't work. I'll try again later. Yet I do think that it should be someone else who posts for two reasons:

1- They do not know me therefor they are most likely to flame, or put the idea down. A person who has been on longer would have more of a chance to be respected.

2- Knowing me, I will probably leave out something, then get flamed. Or mention something about TR, then get flamed.

But then again, I am probably just procrasinating, so I'll do it anyway.

EDIT: The re-registering onto the new forums thing did not work. And I tried to make a new account. But that did not work either.

EDIT 2: Well, this is about liches so we might as well settle this "who is going to post" problem over PM. So, besides transphorming into a lich, what other factors are there? I was wondering what all the bonuses would be. I would say something like this:

will power: +30
intelligence: +30
personnality: was not sure if it would decrease or increase, but heres a guess: +30
speed: +0
agility: +0
luck: +10
endurance: +10
strength: +15

as for skills: All magickal skills get +35 (yes, I know, a lot, but these are liches people)

mercantile@speechcraft: +20


Thats my outline, I may be off, but thats what I think would be good. I did not say what other skills get bonuses, I plan to wait for the proper lore.
Also, Imunnities to all diseases (divine or otherwise). An immunity to poison (they are skeletons). And I was not sure about giving them "reflection".

[Uldar]

Strength: +0
As an attribute required by fighters, I don't think a lich would gain much in fighting abilities, I might even go so far as to suggest a minor penalty to strength (-10)

Intelligence: +0
Not sure I would boost intelligence , instead I think I would add a Fortify Maximum Magicka 2x (too much?) to increase magicka abilities

Will Power: +30
makes sense as this affects ones ability to cast spells

Agility: +10
Speed: +10
I think both of these would get a minor bonus, as the lich no longer has much in the way of physical weight to hinder these

Endurance: +0
As this is predominately a fighter class characteristic a boost to this doesn't seem appropriate

Personality: -30
Defintiely not, considering personaltiy is a key factor in how NPCs react to you, this should go down by like -30 or maybe as much as -50

Luck: +0
Can think of no reason for a lich to get any luckier

A fortify health effect might not be a bad idea considering the liches life force is now supported by arcane magics.

Here is a comparison of a lich (lvl 20) and a Hlaalu guard (lvl 20)

Lich

Str: 50
Int: 100
Wis: 100
Agi: 50
Spd: 51
End: 50
Per: 50
Luc: 50

Health: 280
Magicka: 500


Hlaalu Guard

Str: 100
Int: 61
Wil: 45
Agi: 70
Spd: 77
End: 92
Per: 47
Luc: 40

Health: 210
Magicka: 122

I would say that the Lich's attributes are probably not a strong indication of how a lich should be, as 40 is the average base for most attributes and having these raised to 50 by level 20 shows that these attributes aren't all that important. The 100s for intelligence and will power definitely show what Bethesda feels are a lich's primary attributes. I would guess that Bethesda didn't put much thought/concern into the rest of the attributes.

As far as a lich having an aura of fear, I think Bethesda may have neglected to add anything to create this effect to the in game liches as the only character typically interacting with them is the player. I will need to do some test, but I think having a demoralize spell with an area effect placed on the player might suit this purpose.

[Lord_Gallant]

If you have a mercenary with you, he does not run from a lich, nor feel the effects of a demoralization spell. You can't assume that Bethesda forgot to put in a feature and then call it lore. The aura of fear is a D&D aspect of liches.

On the subject of attributes, I think that a disadvantage to being a lich is needed. I think that one of these disadvantages could be a strong negative in speed (or maybe a percentage-based decrease in speed, such as Set PCSpeed to (PCSpeed/3) ). Another possibility could be an inability to cast spells in the daylight, since the liches in both Daggerfall and Morrowind can only be found in dungeons. The later is a suggestion not based on any lore, but an observation.

[Anonymous]

The Thing about strength is slightly false. To prove it, look at liches in the sewers of Mournhold. They're holding up pretty big swords. And as to Intelligence being added, well, I am not to sure but you should get it. The Personnality disadvantage, it truely depends. You could have a power that fortifies your speechcraft(by 20), mercantile(by 20) and Personnality(by 40). And finally get a personnality reduction of 20. Why? Because the Liches of Tamriel seem very clever, sly and maipulative. They are inteligent enough to know when such and such is a good oppertunity to benifit themselves. Although this could be replaced with a powerful Charm spell. The speed and Agilty is ok. And do not nescessarily think that since there are skills that are usually used for fighters, means that Mage-oriented characters ca not use it. The liches of tamriel are demonic (not actually demonic but you get what I mean), the magicks used clearly make them both physically and mentally strong.

@LG, yes, that is too true. We can not assume. But it could be a power you could cast once a day(and lasted for, lets say 120 seconds). Over all, there will be a lot of powers that come with being a lich. This will probably be the main focus. I have thought of many interesting things:

Constant Effect:

Mind of Eternity: +30 to Intelligence.
Will of Eternity: +30 to Willpower
Being of Eternity: Fortify health: PCHealth*2
Fleshless Being:+10 to agility and speed
Strainless Being: +10 to endurance and strength
Lifeless Being: Immunity to all forms of Disease, Immunity to Poison and Paralyze.
Breath of Decay: -30 to Personnality
One with Darkness: Magicka times two
Ages of Knowledge:(I am not sure which skills)

Powers that you can Cast:

Aura of Malice: Demoralize Huminoid and Creature for 120 seconds (area effect)
Voice of Malice: Fortify personnality, mercantile and speechcraft 30 points for 60 seconds.
Charm of Malice: Charm creature and or huminoid 50-80 points for 60 seconds.
Solen Enslavement: Dominate Creature/Huminoid for 300 seconds.


I am wondering what other powers we can add. I think Lichs should be more then just ability/skill bonuses. It would be better if there powers are what the focus is all about

[Garriath]

Well, what do we know of liches in Tamriel? The only lich we know anything of is Barilzar, who was clearly a fantastic mage before entering lichdom. And-

Oh my god...


Does anyone remember Barilzar's line from Tribunal? Unless I'm very wrong indeed (it has happened once or twice) he said that he was forever cursed to guard his Mazed Band as a lich. So I think we've been following the wrong path from the beginning.

What if lichdom isn't sought, but cursed? Suppose the liches are really those cursed by the Aedra (I doubt the Daedra would do as such). That would explain a lot, methinks.



Anyway, my original point was, the only 'clever' lich we know is Barilzar, who was obviously clever before undeath. Making a statement like "Liches seem to be clever" from the antics of one lich is like judging the human race off Hitler.


Hope that helps,
Garriath


Edit: Oh, and I think that the stats people are posting are turning TR into an uberfest. If it's going to be an alteration, we want serious disadvantages as well as advantages.

[Lord_Gallant]

That is exactly what I was thinking, Garriath, thank you. Although I think I remember reading somewhere that becoming a lich in Tamriel is voluntary (I will have to look that up again), I am pretty sure that the liches of Tamriel do not fit the same mold as the liches of D&D. You do not have to be "Mr. Fantastically Powerful" to become a lich, and I am pretty sure that some liches are made from people that were never anyone special in life. Just look at the rags.

I do think that powerful magics are probably required for the process, though. Which means that a somebody powerful would have to assist someone who is not powerful to become a lich, which is what I suspect from that Profane cult.

Also, I think it is very important, in terms of gameplay balance, for there to be several strong disadvantages to being a lich. It is my understanding that being a lich grants very powerful magical abilities, but if you just give a bunch of nice abilities without strong disadvantages (perhaps strong enough that most people would wonder why you would be crazy enough to do it), then there is no reason to NOT become a lich other than the difficulty in doing so.

EDIT: Garriath just posted his agreement

[Vegor]

I agree - watch out with the uberstats. No way should we add such a stat bonus for becoming a lich. I think the skills for fighting with weapons should be drastically reduced, especially large weapons like long blades and axes. Agility should also be drastically reduced. Strenth could stay the same but I'm in favor of a Strength drain as well. A lich doesn't look all that strong if you ask me.

We should make clear the focus of the lich is magic, even if some liches in-game carry weapons. A good increase in maximum magicka (1.5-2) seems like a good bonus to me. Willpower might get a small boost as well. A health bonus doesn't really seem to make sense unless you just want to make a lich into an ubercreature. Also some unique spells should be created for the lich.

It might be a good idea to have different choices when becoming a lich, just as there are (for example) different clans of vampires. I don't really have a good idea on how to put this into game though. Perhaps different sets of unique spells (for different schools of magic?) and stats bonuses you can choose between. However, I think all liches will be focused on magic so the magic/stealth/combat classification won't really make sense.

Obviously, they won't be accepted by commoners and you would be feared by the mass and attacked by guards when entering towns. Some excentric wizards (mostly Telvanni in Morrowind) might find you intriguing, but you'll be feared and attack most of the time.

[Anonymous]

The cursed by aedra thing is cool. It makes sence. But it is not certain. If we are incorrect, the little record that TR has for staying to lore will be blowned to smitherines. We must ask a Dev about the Transphormation. As to the powers, I really got carried away.

Vegor, the Unique spell thing was a good Idea. Some of the powers could be turned to spells:

Constant Effect:

Mind of Eternity: +20 to Intelligence.
Will of Eternity: +20 to Willpower
Lifeless Being: Immunity to all forms of Disease, Immunity to Poison and Paralyze.
Breath of Decay: -30 to Personnality
One with Darkness: Magicka times two
Ages of Knowledge:(I am not sure which skills)
Strain of Ages: -10 to strength, -20 to endurance, -20 to blunt, longblade, axe, heavy armor. -10 to block, medium armor, armorer.

Powers that you can Cast:

Aura of Malice: Demoralize Humanoid and Creature for 120 seconds (area effect)


Spells uniquely for liches:

Voice of Malice: Fortify personnality, mercantile and speechcraft 30 points for 60 seconds.
Charm of Malice: Charm creature and or huminoid 50-80 points for 60 seconds.
Solen Enslavement: Dominate Creature/Huminoid for 300 seconds.

That equalizes it a bit. Any more suggestions would be appreciated. More lich-unique spells would be good too.

[Lord_Gallant]

Looking at those stats, I would still really want to be a lich no matter what character class I was (unless I was almost pure warrior) The benefits just greatly outweigh the disadvantages, I think it should be the other way around. Some other strong disadvantage that has something other to do than skill or attribute loss needs to be in place. As I mentioned before, something like an inability to cast magic during the day or perhaps a health problem of some kind. Some real cripple on the player that would require a person who REALLY wanted those magical benefits.

Also, bear in mind that becoming a lich does not seem to reduce physical combat ability, given Barilzar's daedric claymore. Also, an advantage that only seems right for a lich is a resistance to normal weapons. Of course, this would only further emphasize the need for a disadvantage...

[Vernon]

Ok. Strict lore (ie Bethesda lore) on lichs/lichdom:

I have put together all i can find, and it amounts to very little. Some of it is of little importance, but may reveal certain things...

Camoran Usurper (?b - 3E 267)
During the first few years of King Cephorus II, 3E 249, the Camoran Usurper began his methodical invasion of Tamriel. From out of a nightmare, in the words of Eraintine, the Camoran Usurper (rumored to be a lich) had led an army of daedra and undead warriors on a rampage through Valenwood, conquering kingdom after kingdom. None could resist his onslaughts, and as month turned to bloody month, fewer even tried. Cephorus II sent more and more mercenaries into Hammerfell to stop the Usurper's northward march, but they were bribed, turned
into undead, or slaughtered. In short, the destruction of the forces of the Usurper had little do with efforts of the Emperor. The result was a great regional victory and an increase in hostility toward the seemingly ineffective Empire.

The Fall of the Usurper
By Palaux Illthre
The people of Dwynnen celebrate Othroktide every 5th of Suns Dawn, the date when, according to legent, a man emerged from the wilderness of High Rock and defeated the undead of Castle Wightmoor to become the first Baron of Dwynnen. Few people believe the legend anymore, but there most certainly was a Baron Othrok of Dwynnen who was destined to become one of true heroes of High Rock, if not all Tamriel. The legend, as most any Dwynnen child will tell you, is that years and years ago (archivists have agreed to the year 3E253), the people of Dwynnen were ruled by a lich and its armies of zombies, ghosts, vampires, and skeletons. Othrok was blessed with by gods and given an army of men and animals to destroy the dead. He brought peace and prosperity to the land, growing more powerful as the land improved. Years later, he led the tiny barony against the Camoran Usurper, and saved all of Tamriel.

Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes
By Destri Melarg
The Shehai became Hunding's weapon, and with this he slew bands of brigands and wandering monsters than infested the land. Finally upon finishing his 90th duel, defeating the evil Lord Janic and his seven lich followers, he was satisfied that he was indeed invincible. Hunding then turned to formulating his philosophy of"the Way of the Sword". He wrote his Learnings down in the BOOK OF CIRCLES while living as a hermit in a cave in the mountains of high desert in his sixtieth year.

Arkay The Enemy
To the Priests: Use your servants sparingly, let none be seen by the living. Let the memories of the undead waste away from the people. Send missionaries to the unbound dead, to the Vampires and the Liches. Let all the nations of dead carry my banner and my banner alone.

As I said, there ain't much...

[The_Writing_Wraith]

Can I make a suggestion as to how to weaken them?

Decrease their resistance to magic *greatly*. They are now creatures of magic themselves, making them very vunerable to even its most subtle effects.

[Anonymous]

good god. what other disadvantages can we give them! I am so, so so confused. Ok, we cut out all the strength and weapon crippling bonuses. And add the "i can not cast spells during the day" thing. And I also think that you should not be able to go enter temples or something. and if you do go into a temple, you burn . But there is the other thing that you can not walk among the living. the disguise spell is good. but it must come at a price. like, you loose all your bonuses and when you enter a temple, you automatically turn back into a lich, there for people will see you and every one will know you are a lich and your disguise will be ruined. Just like the were wolf thing. And also. You can not change disguises. And on top of that, since there is no way to turn back into a living being, your basically screwed and can no longer live amongst the living. This way your gameplay will not be ruined unless you are an ideot that does not like to save. But we need more disadvantidges.

EDIT: Vernon, that was amazing *hands him a trophy made entirely of platinum, rubies and diamonds* That was enlightening. but, perhaps, not enough. We must ask a dev. It is the only way that I can see. But besides that, I haven't much else to say. I thought it would be cool that if you tried healing yourslef with a healing potion or spell, that it would do the opposite effect and actually weeken you. That cuts out another source.

EDIT2: I haven't a clue what else we could use. It seems fair enough now. Perhaps that, in the fake form, the lich slowly loses life, there fore forcing you to turn back into a lich.

[Garriath]

It probably wouldn't help with the balancing issue, but in Daggerfall liches couldn't be harmed by anything beneath ebony quality. Of course, that wasn't so in Morrowind (was it?)

[Anonymous]

No it isn't garriath. I kill them all the time with glass. So I am just guessing that at most it would be normal weapons that they would be immuned too. But we already have enough advantadges. And the dis-advantages seem be a lot more balanced now. Almost perfect.

[Vernon]

Dagoth Mishka, I agree with Lord Gallant. The stats are still too intense. Maybe create a character with those stats and abilities and play it through to a high level. Then any game-unbalancing issues will become more apparent.

Much, much more time needs to be spent on these stats. You should look at what you have done as preliminary. Creating a character type is no small task. I still think you need to come up with a more substantial basis for the transformation to lichdom.

IMO, I would say drop the 'Ages of Knowledge' thing - simplicity can be a good thing!

Also, the 'Aura of Malice' is perhaps incorrectly named. An area effect is not necessarily an 'aura'.

I would also remove the dominate humanoid for 300 seconds ability - it is just plain old uber. Maybe keep the dominate creature thing, but cut the time in half.

Barilzar's (creature) stats, out of interest:

Code: Select all

Str: 95
Spd: 51
Int: 100
End: 50
Wil: 100
Per: 50
Agi: 50
Luc: 50

Combat: 95
Magic: 95
Stealth: 20

Health: 500
Spell Pts: 500
Fatigue: 1000
Soul: 30

Oh, and pinned for future reference, when one of you two says, "do you think I'm mental or something?"

dagoth_mishka says:
we are TR
we do what people do not do on their own
we stretch the human limits
we reach for the sky

Garriath says:
We're a bunch of teens to 20-year old guys with a hobby, you mean.

dagoth_miska says:
that was a bit corny

Garriath Writes My Wame Wrong: Version II

Garriath has learned to write,
thanks to Vernon,
now he can attend highschool,
and buy illegal flin!

Garriath Writes My Wame Wrong: Version III
oon coming to a signature near you!

[Anonymous]

Hm... His strength is almost unaturaly high. Oh boy, what a problem. Anther unwanted bonus to add to the thousands of bonuses we already have. And above all, we have proof. Well, I will take your advice

So, here is all the ADAVANTAGES of being a lich (excluding the str. bonus)

Ability Bonuses: +20 intelligence and willpower.
Immunities: All forms of disease, poisons and paralyses.
Other Bonuses: Magicka x2
Added powers:Aura of Malice (what name should we use?) Demoralize Humanoid and Creature 50 to 70 points for 120 seconds (area effect).
Added Spells:
Voice of Malice: Fortify personnality, mercantile and speechcraft 30 points for 60 seconds.
Charm of Malice: Charm creature and or huminoid 50-80 points for 60 seconds.
Solen Enslavement: Dominate Creature for 150 seconds.
Mask of Mortality(Scripted Spell) Disguises your true form for as long as you want allowing you to play normaly. Cast it again to turn back.

Here are all the DISADVANTAGES:

-You can not cast spells while in daylight.
-While in a Temple or Imperial Cult Shrine, your health decreases at the same rate as a Vampire's would in the sun.
-You can not socialize with the living beings of Tamriel as long as you are in your lich form.
-While allowing yourself to disguise your undead nature, the Mask of Mortality spell has a price to pay, or rather several prices:
1-you lose all lich abilities and powers(and not your spells)
2-You slowly lose health.
3-If you are seen transphorming into a lich or vise-versa, it is like if you were seen becoming a were-wolf. Except, lichdom is in-curable.
4-You are still incapable of casting spells during the day.
5-If you enter a temple or Imperial Shrine, you automatically return to your lich form (there for screwing you).
-Healing potions that you use on yourself will have an opposite effect therefor damaging you. (is this even possible?)

Thats all for now.

[Stumpytheguar]

<edited to remove 'spam' content>

[Lord_Gallant]

I have some proposed modifications to that, mishka.

-Instead of the complex system of changing forms, you are simply persecuted as a monster, as if you were in perpetual werewolf form. This is a good strong disadvantage as well as more lore-abiding, since we have not a single reference of liches with this ability.

-The Restore Health effect doesn't work on you (but Absorb Health does...), rather than just potions, since this is MUCH easier to script (I've done it myself in a vampire mod), and seems to make more sense than actually damaging you. Bear in mind that the positive and negative energy idea is a D&D concept. Healing has no effect on Tamrielic undead.

-Charm and Voice abilities seem like they essentially do the same thing, which is dealing with NPC's. If NPC's run away from you on sight, then this doesn't work. However, I am pretty sure that an NPC will talk to you if they are under the effect of a Domination spell. If you had a short (10 sec) duration Domination spell, you might be able to force dialogue with otherwise unwilling NPC's. This I haven't tested though.

[Darth_Blade]

That's it. I'm PMing WormGod NOW.

[Uldar]

If we look at the vampire clans of Morrowind, they receive some nice bonuses to there abilities, the major disadvantage is the inability to interact with the rest of the world, thereby limiting game play. (The sun damage aspect isn't really a hinderance in the vanilla version of Morrowind as everyone is up 24-7.)

It is somewhat similar with being a werewolf. While there are no bonuses/penalties applied during your normal state, the bonuses are tremendous when you are a werewolf, though you are limited to being a killing machine. Needing to be cautious about where you are when you change, and having to kill humanoids to end your blood lust puts some limits on where you can safely be a werewolf.

From these examples it appears Bethesda's stance on becoming an altered being is not so much to limit (balance) the abilities of the player, but limit what the player is allowed to do in the other aspects of the game.

In this light, I would say that, when the player becomes a lich, they die. All previous affiliations are gone. Reputation is reset to zero. I'm not sure how possible it is, but I would probably say the player would also no longer be the Nerevarine.

As a lich, the player should not be able to interact with most NPCs. We would need to loose the disguise spell to enforce this, but would have to have lich cults (much like the vampires) to keep the ability to buy/sell goods, train, gain spells, etc. (or else we would definitely ruin game play.)

This is not to say that I would go nuts with the stats and make an uber character. I would still try to achieve balance with attributes by having the cumulative bonus equal the cumulative penalty. For example:

Str:-10
Int:+10
Wil:+20
Agi:-10
Spd:+0
End:+10
Per:-20
Luc:+0

Spells and abilities should be handled in the same way:

Fortify Maximum Magica 2X / Weakness to Magicka 50%
Regenerate Magicka @ 1pt / Restoration spells have no effect (Absorb only)

I don't know that I would prohibit spell casting in day light. Just because we've haven't seen any liches in broad daylight doesn't mean that it is impossible for them to cast spells under such conditions. If we are going to drop the disguise spell then we aught to leave daytime spell casting alone and blame their hiding in caves on the fact that they are not socially accepted.

I like the idea of having different types of liches, and this is where I could see pushing liches towards super beings (though not uber). For example, there could be a necromatic variety with bonuses to their conjuration and mysticism skills. Add some spells with low magicka costs for conjurations and attribute absorbtion. A sorcerous variety with bonuses to mystsicism and destruction. Their spells would be low cost frost/fire/lightning spells as well as some for absorbtion. The name Profane Acolyte makes me think of an anti-healer type (though they don't exhibit any such traits). The anti-healer type (need a better name) would probably also recieve bonuses to thier destructon and mysticism, though their spells would be ones of draining and absorbing attributes, possibly causing disease (if this seems practicle).

[Dexter]

I may as well offer my thoughts on the subject. I'll say straight out that I am against the idea of the player being transformed into a lich, for whatever reason. To me it sounds extremely cliche.
However, I think we should consider what actually happens when someone becomes a lich. Is flesh magically stripped from the bone all at once, leaving the player as a skeleton? Or does the body simply die as the spirit lives on, and decay occurs over time. I think the last part makes more sense. Even though all the liches in the game are complete skeletons, they are also amazingly old.
Also, we should not be using Barilzar as a basis for the lich stats. Barilzar is the most powerful lich in the game. We should use the standard liches, which are level 20 creatures:
Str: 50
Spd: 51
Int: 100
End: 50
Wil: 100
Per: 50
Agi: 50
Luc: 50
If you compare these stats to those of NPCs at level 20, you will see that there is not much of a difference. They fluxuate a few points this way and that, but not much. Speed, endurance, and agility all are significantly higher in the NPCs, typically by at least 10 points.
So an attribute bonus seems out of line. If anything, speed endurance and agility should be knocked down. However, a lich has about 100 more health points and over twice as much magicka as a level 20 magicka-class NPC. So, giving a 1.5x health and 2x magicka bonus seems fair.
I think we should do everything we can to limit the player interacting with other NPCs while in lich form. A massive drain on personality and speechcraft would work. I mean honestly, what person, especially a Dunmer, would have a conversation with a walking skeleton? To counter the speechcraft drain, we could give the liches the standard undead immunities to frost, disease and poison, and the 50% resistance to shock. And what the hell, why not a 20% resistance to normal weapons. I am trying to avoid going overboard, because I don't like this idea in the first place, so if anyone thinks this is a bit much, by all means say so.

[Zalzidrax]

I personally wouldn't care much to turn into a lich- as dexter said it is kind of cliche. However, since it is possible to transform into one in the world of Tamriel, and we are trying to recreate that world, I believe we should make it possible to transform into one.

I agree with dexter that we should go the way of increasing magicka and health instead of ability scores. I think 1.5x hitpoints is a wee bit TOO much, though.

Maybe giving magic skill bonuses, like you get when you became a vampire from the mage clan.

[Colostriph]

Perhaps your health would only be raised by 30%? That doesn't seem like too much. As for the Magickal Improvements, it would be slightly wrong to base it on the skill bonuses of The Mage Clan Aundae, for liches are liches and not vampires. I am looking at their bonuses right now, and we could use some of them. But most of the lich lore I have read has brought me to believe that they are magick users. My question is what magickal attributes/skills would we raise? And by how much?

Earlier in this thread, I read alot of powers suggested for liches. Will we use these? The downfalls seem to be all intact: the sun light damage, the no socializing with the rest of the world thing and the not being able to turn back into a mortal. The last point I mensioned also has to be considered a problem. Think about. Thats a real killer. In vampires and were wolves, I never worried about never seeing civilization again because I knew there was a cure. And it was, as usual, extremely easy to achieve. But with liches, the player will not have that comfort and sense of security. It only goes one way. I don't know what changes this element will cause, but it still an important factor to include.

I found that Dagoth Mishka's list of powers was a bit off, but then Vernon seemed to have polished it off, though I think there should still be some sort of Dominate Humanoid spell. Perhaps just for 30 seconds. Perhaps less.

I love liches, and love their limited, short, paper thin lore. So I vote yes.

[Vernon]

Look, TBH I think the Lich idea is crap too. I voted no, but if it is gonna be included I thought I would add my ideas. My posts were not endorsements.

[Garriath]

I couldn't agree more, Vernon.


Let's take what was just stated: liches can have no interaction with NPC's. That's effectively screwing over (I'm using that phrase wayy too much, meh) 1/3 of the work going into the project, at least. This would mean that we'd need to make the experience for becoming a lich nearly as in-depth as not. This indicates a huge effort for a path probably 1/8 players will use. With vampires and werewolves, you could always go back (unless you were spotted by a werewolf, but who keeps those saved games anyway). Not so for a lich. Even if we made this 'lich covens' we couldn't make them for Vvardenfel without creating a bolt-on, invalidating 1/3 of the province gameplaywise.

I personally believe my 'curse' theory functions perfectly well. It takes away a lot of D&D-ish lore and also stops from having to make all the afore-mentioned work. It also fits in with pretty much the only lore we have.

Even if we include a lich transformation, I highly suggest it does not take place in Morrowind. Perhaps we can add it later on, but not in Morrowind. We can work on all the Witches and Necromancers and nasties when we get to Skyrim.

Garriath.