Ebonheart City

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:41 am

not going to read through all the posts, but why don't we leave it "old ebonhart" and make it a ghost city. Maybe the castle could be owned by some duke that was dethroned along time ago but won't leave is castle... or something.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:05 am

Uldar wrote:As you can see, Vvardenfell was largely uninhabited (however I was mistaken about the great houses, they apparently did have a presence on Vvardenfell, albiet a small one). I may be reading into it a bit much but this, to me, implies that Ebonheart Castle would not have been on Vvardenfell before the ban was lifted. It would have been in what is now (Dexter's) Old Ebonheart.

I agree with that.

Also note that the whole colonization was under Duke Dren, the current Duke during the time of TESIII. So the Duke of Ebonheart (from the mainland) is still the Duke of Ebonheart on Vvardenfell.

Not true at all... it says only that Vvardenfell is presently ruled by the Duke of Ebonheart (which it is) and the district council (which there is). The relevant quote...

The new District was divided into Redoran, Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Temple Districts, each separately administered by local House Councils or Temple Priesthoods, and all under the advice and consent of Duke Dren and the District Council in Ebonheart.

...

So this is my take on the situation (which should address Nomadic's views):

Prior to the lifting of the Colonization Ban, the Duke of Ebonheart ruled his Duchy (Vvardenfell) from Ebonheart Castle which was on the mainland. It was on the mainland because the Duchies are Imperial establishments and an Imperial presence on Vvardenfell was forbid.

Once the Ban was lifted the Duke moved the castle to Vvardenfell. As stated in my earlier post the castle becomes Ebonheart Castle and the surrounding 'populace' becomes Ebonheart, which then requires a new name for old Ebonheart (IMO Old Ebonheart).

Read the passage again. It says that Vvardenfell was created a district in 3E 414, and Vedam Dren became the duke of it. It says nothing of a there being a Duke of Ebonheart before (although I reckon in TR there was, just the Duchy was abolished in 3E 414 with the creation of Vvardenfell district). As for who would be in Old Ebonheart's Castle today, my best bet would be the Grand Council of Morrowind - representatives from the Temple, Great Houses and the Dukes who administer Morrowind as a whole, or at least it is supposed to.

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:52 am

Eraser wrote:Weren't you not going to post here again?

just kidding cuz you said you weren't going to

(I should have said I wasn't going to post off-topic again)

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:25 am

The new District was divided into Redoran, Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Temple Districts, each separately administered by local House Councils or Temple Priesthoods, and all under the advice and consent of Duke Dren and the District Council in Ebonheart.

I can see your point. As I read it, it was the division of the district that was given advice and consent by Duke Dren and the District Council. As you read it, the separate administrations are given advice and consent.

It neither explicitly states that Duke Dren oversaw the colonization, nor that Duke Dren was appointed as Duke after the colonization. It is all in how you read it. But, I can see how your read is more than likely the correct one.

In either case, (Old) Ebonheart is no longer the seat of power for the Duke of Ebonheart. Since the new Ebonheart's creation necessitates a renaming of the old Ebonheart, the situation changes little.

And now to hopefully bring this topic to a final conclusion and perhaps a consensus on a name for OE...

We do know that there was an Ebonheart in the location of Dexter's Old Ebonheart, as it was in the maps from Arena. We also (now) know that the Devs state that Ebonheart was moved, and thus we have Ebonheart in it's current position in TESIII.

While it may be taking some liberties with Mr. Smiley Face Dude's statement, ("Ebonheart was moved from the mainland"), I don't think it is too unreasonable to say something has to take the place of where Ebonheart was. Considering there was a city there, and Ebonheart has moved to Vvardenfell District, then there ought to still be a city there, only with a new name.

As this city was named Ebonheart and there is a new Ebonheart, then (in my opinion) the old Ebonheart should be named Old Ebonheart.

Does everyone agree? Can we finally stick a fork in this conversation or is there some points that have been missed or misconstrued?

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:08 am

Personally, I like to entertain the notion that Old Ebonheart is named such as it is a really old city relative to the other imperial cities in Morrowind. I can also see your point Uldar. So either way for me, Old Ebonheart is the one.

kingfish · Post by **kingfish** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:32 am

a little quote from the real berenziah vol.5:

…The rivalry between Ebonheart and Mournhold reached back almost to the dawn of Morrowind's history… …Ebonheart had split into two separate city-states, Ebonheart and Mournhold… …Still, Ebonheart remained jealous of her prerogatives as the eldest city-state of Morrowind (“first among equals” was the phrase its rulers often quoted)…

so, as soon as imps established the "new" ebonheart on vardenfell, the most logical thing for E was to to change it's name to "old ebonheart", because being the old [oldest] city of morrowind is its' main heritage and pride; and the word "old" emphasizes this.

besides, as it seems, most of us want it to be OE, only sload lord isn't happy about it.

so, let's just forget this whole matter; Old Ebonheart prevails!

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:04 am

I Like Niors idea about it being a ghost city it would be the first and ad some creativity that we haven't done yet and would still keep dexter's work.

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:08 am

You've got to be kidding...

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:10 am

why would it be a bad idea?

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:14 am

The biggest Imperial city in Morrowind, with the port and castle the way I have designed them, a ghost city? Who in their right mind would abandon that place? Maybe instead of having a duke in the castle, it could be ruled by a collection of people, including an ambassador from Cyrodiil, a high-ranking officer in the Legion, and perhaps a figurehead in the EEC.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:18 am

Lets keep it old ebonheart then.

There doesn't need to be a duke in the castle, there just used to be in the past.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:19 am

of course it would be your city Dex so what you do with it is your desion in the end. I just thought it would be interesting it would make people wonder when they walked into the city to why it was abandond. Also I think the name should stay old ebonheart.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:21 am

Abramul wrote:Has anyone done a test to see if there actually are dialogue conflicts?

You should read carefully. It is a fact that dialogue that goes for cell 'E' goes for every cell starting with an E. Therefor dialogue for cell 'Ebonheart' will go for every cell starting with 'Ebonheart'. That's why city dialogue works in interiors.

kingfish wrote:so, let's just forget this whole matter; Old Ebonheart prevails!

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:27 am

Arcadea wrote:of course it would be your city Dex so what you do with it is your desion in the end. I just thought it would be interesting it would make people wonder when they walked into the city to why it was abandond. Also I think the name should stay old ebonheart.

Oh yeah because OE is abandoned. Yeah I forgot about that.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:28 am

what I meant by that is that it's his claim all we can do is give him sugestions but the final descion is still his.

Example:P Proposal 10: Changes in Completed Group Map Mods

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:47 am

There is an outline of the uses proposed for the Ebonheart Castle in the Morrowind Districts thread, linked from Page 3 or 4. These discussions are pretty much parrallel, and I have agreed that Old Ebonheart is the best way to go about doing it.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:21 pm

Just thought I would post this here, it's not really relavant, but just an fyi for people that don't know:

The Royalty Rankings in Medieval Times from Highest to lowest:

King
Duke
Earl
Count
Viscount
Marquis
Baron
Lord

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:01 pm

AFAIK, the rankings are:

Emperor - High King
King
Archduke
Grand Duke
Duke
Grand Prince
Prince
Count Palatine (Palace Count)
Margrave - Marquis*
Landgrave
Count - Earl - Grave (same thing)
Viscount
Burgrave - Altgrave - Marquis*
Baron
Lord
Siegneur - Manor Knight

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:06 pm

ahem...Medieval...that means King is the supreme, not an Emperor.

King
Duke
Prince
Count - Earl(usually considered equal)
Viscount
Marquis
Baron
Lord
Manor Knight
---
No such thing as 'archduke' or 'grand duke' or 'grand prince'. A prince is the son of a king, if there was more than one, they were both 'the prince', not, 'the prince' and 'the grand prince'.

Count Palatine is actually the highest religous official at the Court. I can't remember how they got that name, however.

Never heard of a landgrave, or a grave.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:11 pm

Can we continue this discussion in a more relevant thread?