Models needed for Morrowind

[Harke the Apostle]

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Vivec Canton + bug bits...

[Theo]

I am afraid sticking bugs to Velothi buildings will not work. Bug shelters should be unique to ashlanders, where they actually provide primitive but effective protection from ash storms. Dres architecture should be more adapted to humid weather, with more open public spaces like marketplaces, gardens, courts etc.. I allways pictured Dres as strongly traditional, xenophobic agriculture society, where great differences between low and high classes (astoundishing manors and villas and huge slums).
For the bugfights - just scale some of existing bugs and muskflies to size 2 or make hostile version of plainstriders etc. Also sky renders are cool monsters for arena fights.

[Jale]

Perhaps. The problem for me is that it would make the Dres seem like "Telvanni Mk.2" I mean, houses you need levitation to get through, slave hatin' and all that stuff. They just seem like Telvanni living in Velothi-esque buildings that way.

Well they are part of the same culture, after all. I think the rich/poor divide should make them unique enough though, as well as the epic scale of slavery.

[Gnomey]

In the comic it showed a Dres guy so magical that his severed hand alone was capable of blowing up a flying wasp.

I don't think that the comic really speaks for the Dres in general. (He seemed to be the only Dres using magic). I'm guessing that he was a specially hired mage, like in the Caldera mines, and who is there for the same reasons.

Though I like the idea of rooms and buildings that can't be accessed on foot, I suggest the following alternatives: 1. The sale of levitating potions nearby, bargain ones which will get you there. 2. Bug-travel. Who says skyrenders can only be used as guard mounts? This is my favourite idea, but some dialogue scripting will probably be necessary, as paying to get to a slave shack (for example) is pretty stupid. Maybe a sort of slave-buying paper is required like in Port Telvannis? You'll have to pay for that too but at least it's more general. 3. a sort of drawbridge, which will unfortunately require some scripting and animating. The velothi silt strider port comes to mind. Personally I prefer option 2.

While I like the idea of a full set that follows the dimensions of the velothi set, that may not be possible due to modellers being too busy with other things. However, if done right I think that a good retexture and some traditionalistic (I can't really get any more specific than that) addons should already make Dres stand out as a unique style. Or any addon that makes it seem different from Velothi, for that matter, as long as it fits in well. However, as the subject seems to be running along the line of looks for new sets, I might as well post a concept which I made a while ago for the Velothi set. I'll try to get it posted tomorrow.

As to colours, I always thought that Indoril was white and Dres was grey. Oh well, having real colours is better, white and gray might just be favourite "colours" or something along that line.

[Jale]

The idea of elevators sprang to my mind, but it would beg the question "why doesn't everyone else have them"

[Thrignar Fraxix]

The idea of elevators sprang to my mind, but it would beg the question "why doesn't everyone else have them"

Because they are bug-ivators? a legion of insects lift a platform up and down the passageway, stopping by the command of a dres lord/elevator dude. Perhaps even just a single beetle.

[Gnomey]

Yes, I entended a single "mountable" (naturally the player won't really go on it) sky render, who flies the passangers up to the required place. To come to think of it, this would actually require rather roomy shafts if the sky render should fly, or the entrances look outwards rather than inwards.

[Jale]

Well I was thinking more along the lines of amber-coloured crystals, like the telvanni ones, but...amber. Press it, goes up, press the other, goes down. Only operable if you aren't wearing a slave bracer.

Or if you want to tap into the whole mercantile-with-a-few-strong-magicians idea just issue all Non-Slave NPCs with a House Dres ring, effect Levitate 5pts for 15 seconds.

Make em worthless as shit of course. It would not only make them seem very opulent, but also its quite logical: why bother having umpteen slave bracers that drain will, when you can just have one ring for yourself, and the pleasure of manually breaking their will...

(I really really like this idea )

Summary of my ideas:

-Build all brick-and-mortar (ie non bug) houses around a central shaft, which is traversable by levitation
-Have NPCs carry rings of levitation: shows of their very rich society, and indicates presence of a few powerful mages
-Have only trainee slaves wear bracers: rest are broken in actuality.
-Make exteriors essentially like velothi, only replace the dome with a mottled glass one like a bug eye, to let in light to the shaft as well as look different
-Retexture velothi set as grey
-Have bug houses as poor accomodation, and slave camps in place of ashlander camps, full of these bug houses
-Make brick-and-mortar houses as submerged towers, with a few rooms branching off.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

This sounds more like it, I like alot of what you've just said, Jale.

Personally, I'd go with the crystals, and have touching them give you a temporary levitation spell. (Do that no-slaves thang) Also makes for great 'stealh quests' where you're smuggled in, disguised as a slave, and then realise you can't use the elevator.

[Gnomey]

@Jale: Oops, I thought you were replying to my post.

Anyway, I'd like to see a concept of sorts for how the crystal would be placed, because at the moment I can't get the picture of a kind of futureistic panel out of my mind. Because of this I won't really say anything for or against the idea.

And BC, that wouldn't be very clever of the intruder in any case: slaves would be watched more than common citizens and would probably be led to the rest of the slave pen when seen and really become a slave. (If he isn't sold to a Sload first). [/off topic]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Gah, don't shatter my dreams.

I'll work out a logical excuse for the PC to be stuck in a Dres mansion without access to the elevators. After all, I've got all the time till Map 6 to do so.

Regardless, I still prefer the crystals to the rings, for some reason.

[Jale]

I think that the amber idea while it is nice, is a bit too weird to be believable in the TES Universe...why have they got them and nobody else? Thus I think House Dres Rings would be better. It also gives an air of exclusivity when you get presented with one.

[xeth-ban]

I like the idea of the ring...And mostly all of Jales ideas, the ring should probably be named something like "Dres Signet Ring" or however that is spelled, and should probably be a part of the family heritage, going down from generation to generation.

[Tyrion]

Velothi meets Mayan. Shall I draw a picture?

[Nalin]

Aren't we talking about slaves in everyday Dres homes? Why would the slaves not be around the house doing stuff for thier masters? Ones waiting to be sold off would be at a slaver camp in a big cage/pit (or whatever we put them in).

If this is for some slave sellers place or some other place where the circumstances would allow for this scenario then with the ring idea - how does the slaver get the slave up when he needs too? - sounds flawed that way. I like the idea of a house that has a verticle tunnel/pit thing in it - has an insect-ish feel to it, kind of like a trapdoor spiders tunnel thing going on or a cell in a hive - I'd like bug transport up and down. That would "rock ones socks".

[Jale]

Aren't we talking about slaves in everyday Dres homes? Why would the slaves not be around the house doing stuff for thier masters? Ones waiting to be sold off would be at a slaver camp in a big cage/pit (or whatever we put them in).

They entire purpose of the shaft idea is that it keeps slaves on the level they are put on by their master. I guess the top floor would have to be something that doesn't need cleaning...the trophy room perhaps.

The whole point of it being everyone is that it shows the opulent expenditure of the house: providing everyone who lives in the towns with a ring.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Nalin's problem is - how did the slaves get up there? Are they carried by their masters?

However, I don't think a 'bug elevator' is a good idea. Unless it's just a single Skyrender, it's just going to look cheesy and out of place.

If we could get a nice unique icon for the ring, that'd be cool. And I like the idea of it being handed down through generations. Kinda like the Telvanni staffs you get, but more symbolic.

If we solve Nalin's problem, I'd be okay with the ring idea.

[Jale]

Nalin's problem is - how did the slaves get up there? Are they carried by their masters?

Regardless of the fact that we cannot do 'levitate on target' we just say that the masters either cast that, or borrow a staff that does the same thing.

The idea of it being passed down works for larger families, but I think that the general populace should have it provided by the lord (or whatever) of the town they live in.

A couple of levels of ring...a basic 'House Dres Ring' for residents, and a real 'Dres Signet Ring' for true members.

[kebra]

A question to the Core,
Is the creation of a new set is a re-open question?


If some of you want to propose a new set, why not, but we will not wait and continue, because of the low chance to see it finished in the TR standart. Anyway, i like this idea of fly, but not the bug addon.

Theo, the retexturing work is not so hard and may add a little something.

Jale, can you understand that your english is difficult for foreigners eyes?

[El Scumbago]

The Core hasn't discussed this matter in detail yet, we're still tossing ideas and some of us have begun working on concepts, but nothing's final or decided.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Nalin's problem is - how did the slaves get up there? Are they carried by their masters?

Regardless of the fact that we cannot do 'levitate on target' we just say that the masters either cast that, or borrow a staff that does the same thing.

Hmm. To me that seems like too much trouble for a mostly non-magical faction. It seems (in fact this whole 'Telvanni-esque shafts' thing does, now I think about it, but this is just my opinion) overly complex to explain how slaves move around the house. Every time they need to move from room to room, some guy has to come and prod them with a levitate staff, and they then have to move themselves about (why wouldn't they escape or something?)

It just seems like way too much explanation is necessary to make this feasible, unless we can find some way to get it working 'smoothly' and intuitively, so that the player doesn't find themselves asking questions about the system. For instance, the Telvanni shafts are okay because the PC just assumes that wizards can levitate around them. But Dres aren't overtly magickal, and also rely alot on slaves, so the player has to ask "how do the Dres get about?" and "how do the slaves get about", and then when they find out "who makes all these rings", "who helps the slaves get about" etc. It just seems like too much explanation is needed to make this thing believeble, and we have no basis for it other than "it would be cool".

I think it might be a good idea for the slave pens, where a slavemaster could cast spells and move 'em into some holding area in an organised fashion, that wouldn't mean lots of enchanted rings flying about, and no need to constantly be moving slaves (only once to get them up, and once to get them down). I also like the idea of the 'handed down' Dres Signet Rings, which strikes me as a nice touch, and a little fun bit of character. The question is what use they would have if we don't go with the shafts. Perhaps some doors can only be opened by impressing that family's signet ring on it?

[xeth-ban]

About the Dres Signet Rings* they could be used as some kind of key like Crustacean mentioned, but not only for doors, they could function like some sort of enchanted slave key to....Perhaps enchanted to only work in the hands of that Dres noble family so no-one else would be able to use them to escape? Or they could always just function like plain old Slave Keys.....

What i imagine is a ring made out of ebony, with emeralds shaped like bug eyes put into sockets in the ring.

*Who would know that my idea would be so well liked

[Jale]

The problem with the ring-locking doors is that again it begs the question...why didn't everyone else do that?

Break the whole thing down logically:

-We need to keep it appropriate, so lets assume they will use a form of elevation that is already present, which gives us the option of ramps, shafts and stairs.
-We know they keep slaves, and to keep slaves you either need a shaft, or locked doors
-We know they are rich and have access to powerful mages

The only two real options are stairs/ramps with normal locked doors, or shafts. Which is more fun and interesting? Shafts.

So how do they get around? Rings enchanted with levitation. They are rich, they can afford them.

But how do they move the slaves around? Get a slave moving staff.

But why go to such trouble? It saves the masters a lot of time with locked doors, and they can afford to do it.

And finally, how do we explain this to the player? Simple. Put it in dialogue. The NPCs have a lot to say, and it saves us thinking up completely random topics when things like rumors can be things like:

'Did you hear that Marnan Drass bought a slave-moving staff just so that he could move his slave mistress to his floor when his wife was out? I wouldn't have liked to be him when his wife Jasso caught him at it!'

Its fun, and it fits. That's the simple answer to why we should do it this way.

[Nalin]

I like the sound of this - though it begs the question - why wouldn't the slave moving staff use the ring to escape? (Perhaps because he's been "broken" too and feels that it's impossible - he'd rather be a slave with priviledges than just a slave?).

It's interesting and it's unique. It also serves to highlight the lavish lifestyle of the Dres. A slave to boss the slaves for the master. It could open up some interesting scenarios in while the player finds himself amongst slaves - perhaps even as a slave at some point and has to figure some way out - it'd be a great chance to get an insight into some kind of "interslave politics" or whatever the word is that I'm thinking of.

The idea of them being in a "pit" and literally looked down on seems so Dres to me.

Thumbs up overall - now get sketching up some designs and lets go to the rest of "the core" with something so awesome they can't help but say yes to it! I really like the "hive" aspect to it - maybe having the slave in one "pit" and then separated into individual cells inside that - really hive like (I'm thinking like cells that larvae go in) - Disgusting - cramped - inhumane - perfect.

[blackbird]

I thought also that giant flying insects could transport the slaves.

[Tyrion]

This is too complicated! It should be intuitive for a player to figure it out, we shouldn't have to give them a longwinded and shaky explanation thats going to end up full of holes in the end.

[Nalin]

This is too complicated! It should be intuitive for a player to figure it out.

I don't think it is too complicated - It's interesting and alien - just what we need to attract attention to the differences in style and feel between the great houses - with the Dres we have so much say in what they live like due to the lack of lore and images on the matter.

We should be really greatfull of the opportunity to add a distinct style to dres that elderscrolls fans will come to recognise as Dres, not just TR's version of Dres.

We shouldn't have to give them a longwinded and shaky explanation thats going to end up full of holes in the end.

Jales example of a simple, natural way of explaining this idea was just that - simple and natural.

But for a more in depth explanation, why not have a book that documents slave management by the Dres?
It could be written in a very documentative way by an Imperial - or even better - an ex-slave...An Imperial ex-slave even! It wouldn't have to be long - it could even increase a skill, for example speachcraft (If he "conned" his way out somehow).

[xeth-ban]

I see one problem with this....Why if the Dres nobles ring run out of charge while down in the slave pits? that would be scary

[Jale]

Nalin is right. There are far more shaky concepts in the original anyway. Like the way that the Ordinators wear Indoril armour, but aren't necessarily in house Indoril...that's barely explained at all in the game. Its these little slightly obscure idiosyncrasies which make the game interesting to play.

EDIT: If their rings run out...well that's just tough luck. Should have made sure it was charged in the first place. Besides, don't Morrowind Enchantments recharge over time? Just give it a really massive capacity.

Just to augment the ideas slightly so its a little less awkward overall, I think some floors should be linked by stairs, as long as there are a few distinct sections... living quarters, entrance, 'utility' works in larger houses...

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Well, I've really said my bit, and I'll leave it up to you guys and the Core as to what actually happens. Personally, just reitirating one more time, I'm with Tyrion on feeling the shaft thing needs to much explanation. As I said, I highly support the shafts thing for slave holding areas and pits (what Nalin was talking about sounded extremely cool) but I just don't get it for houses.

For example, every time a slave needs to go and clean a new room or whatever, he's got to find a Dres slavemaster (so there's got to be one on each floor) who has a staff with which he then prods the slave to get him to levitate to the next room, and he also assumes that the slave isn't going to just levitate to his escape. In addition, there's some 'factory' mass producing levitation rings for everyone in Dres society who's not a slave. It just seems overly complex.

One thing I do want is something cool that allows (as I, and now Nalin, have said before) cool 'escape' missions where the player somehow ends up as a slave and has to take advantage of [whatever system we go with] to escape. This doesn't really work with the shafts system (but it's not really necessary, it's just got my questing brain into gear)

Again, I'm all for culture, but it needs to be flowing and obvious how it works. The player shouldn't have to speak to person x or read book y to be able to understand the system. It should just be obvious, yet original.

Anyway that's this humble quester's view. I'll leave it up to interiorers and the Core to get things sorted out.

EDIT: And Jale, I'd have said "House Indoril provide armour for the Ordinators due to their fanatical loyalty to the Temple" is relatively obvious compared to "House Dres all have these powerful levitation rings and enough soul gems to keep them constantly charged, and enough mages to keep making them for every non-slave Dres person and also they have these people who poke slaves with levitation staffs to help them move about the house for their chores, and the slaves never try to escape because they're 'broken'".

[Jale]

BC, the idea is that the slaves would probably just live in one section of the house the entire time. So the manservant would live in the bit of the house with the bedrooms, and the cook would live in the bit with the dining room.

I think it makes a nice change from the other houses that the Dres would have more trust in their slaves, because they have actually mastered the art of breaking them. Also thinking up some gory punishments for unruly slaves would be good.

Like being lowered into a pit of ravenous mudcrabs...

[xeth-ban]

I really don't think ever non-slave in Dres society should be given a ring, except the rich upper classes nobody would have any need for shafts like that anyways.

I imagine the Dres slums as a place where the life standard is often lower than that of the slaves, much like the lower class in Rome.

In my opinion, the Noble caste should be given rings and those staves, while only certain people in the other castes get it(that extra rich priest, or that wealthy merchant)
Everyone in Dres society having one just seems kinda lame, what if the Empire decided they wanted to take out Telvanni for some reason? all they would have to do would be crusing Dres, then they would have thousands of levitating rings to use to take Telvanni

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Bloodthirsty Mudcrabs, Jale.

I'm all for that.

[Nalin]

As for shafts everywhere rather than just to "the slave pit" - No, I'm not for that idea - too telvan. I like the slave pit idea - but just for larger manors.

This way (in just manors) we wouldn't have masses of levitation rings flying around.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Yeah, done in moderation I'd be okay with it. That similarity to Telvanni was what had me most worried. And if we keep the shafts for just leading to the 'slave pits' then I'm pretty much 100% for it, because that's logical and intuitive: "they levitate the slaves out of the pit when they need them" makes much more sense than the 'shafts everywhere' system.

[Nalin]

That's what I thought we were talking about all along.

[Jale]

Of course this is only in the places where they are wealthy enough to have such houses. Manors and so forth. Think of Balmora for example: if we were to remake it Dres-style then pretty much everywhere would be exactly the same, except the Manors at the top of the hill would require some levitation to get around.

I still think that in manors while a slave pit would be appropriate, some slaves should just live where they work - trusted house slaves.

[Nalin]

Of course this is only in the places where they are wealthy enough to have such houses. Manors and so forth...the Manors...would require some levitation to get around.

I still think that in manors while a slave pit would be appropriate, some slaves should just live where they work - trusted house slaves.

The manors shouldn't require levitation to get around - they should have ramps/stairs - only the slave pit should require levitation to get out of.

[Nomadic1]

Levitating for the slave pits is a good idea, and I like it. For manors, I don't. For the Dres Council House, I like it.

BTW: Can we get back to how much the holes in the arses of the Velothi buildings desperately need to get covered up?
(For those slow in the uptake, I'm just reiterating what I consider the highest priority at the moment; I'm not intending for the discussion to actually head off there)

[Jale]

The manors shouldn't require levitation to get around - they should have ramps/stairs - only the slave pit should require levitation to get out of.

Well actually I think both should be in order. I think the manors should be constructed around a shaft, and that there could be locked doors on stairs too. I think having options for the Dres would be a great thing. It should be clear that if you can levitate like the owners of the house, its easy, but for slaves its harder to get around.

Moving away from the stairs/shafts debate for a moment, I think that each town should have a pit of 'public slaves', owned by the lord of the town (also each town should have a lord...) that can be rented by the townfolk. This would enforce the slave theme without us having to make every little house geared up to holding slaves.