Tamriel Rebuilt

Well we do need to think about how these plants could realistically live. As Kieren points at, a plant is green because of its chlorophyll, which is how it produces energy. A plant has to have a way of producing energy. While it could be possible to have a plant that lives in salty water (even though there aren't any in our world) it has to produce energy. So maybe a touch of green mixed in with the browns to give the feeling of a world that is actually alive and not just dead.

blackbird wrote:
The reason why the deshaan plains are fertile, because it's a surprise that even a lot of saltrice could grow there. it should be a barren wasteland, where almost nothing could grow.

...uh, really confused by this statement.
Would anyone mind providing a bit of clairvoyance as to the ratio of "fertile" land to "barren wasteland"?

In any event Blackbird, I wasn't suggesting that TR wasn't capable of doing whatever it wanted...but merely asking for direction for my concept art.

As The Greatness mentioned, some plants could have adapted to the salty environment (like saltrice), so I imagine if this place is fertile, it has to have a lot of plants which are unique to this area (e.g. the white grass mentioned could be some special "salt grass"). I don't think the plants would have to be green, not all plants get their energy from photosynthesis, some get it from symbiosis with bacteria (i think...) or other chemical processes. It would be obvious for them to have another way of getting energy, since it is a very unique environment. I'd say that Myzel's proposed color palette would work just fine

Edit: But some pale blue on some might be interesting too... After all, Morrowind is already pretty brown a lot of places

The Greatness wrote:While it could be possible to have a plant that lives in salty water (even though there aren't any in our world) it has to produce energy.

Who told you there were no plants in out world that lived in salty water? There are real life salt water plants. You know, kelp and things like that.

We can stop talking about chlorophyll and real world plants now. Morrowind isn't real life and it absolutely doesn't have to obey the laws of nature.

We're dealing with a fictional world here. That means we are free to define aesthetic without being restrained by logic. Therefor, any argument rejecting an aesthetic idea on the basis of photosynthesis is moot at best and ridiculous at worst.

Also, here is something Lutemoth drew:
Just throwing it out there.
[url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/deshaan.jpg][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/thumb/deshaan.jpg_thumb.jpg[/img][/url]

Edit:
Some direction for artists:
No dead plants. I never said anything about dead plants. White; yes. Pale brown as well. Blue and lavender flowers; great. I'd love to see strange shapes.
The landscape itself is arid and brown (except for the white salt flats), but not dead. These shouldn't be ashlands in brown&white. Amidst the salt formations, along streams in the brown dirt, and even on the banks of pools on the pearly salt flats, I'm seeing lots of plants thriving. Dres saltrice plantations dot the plains and flats. Not dead; fertile!
That is how I see it, anyway.

An idea for some plants in the region, inspired by glasswort and strange plants from Socotra Island.
[url=http://img148.imageshack.us/i/snakeplant.jpg/][img]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2613/snakeplant.th.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://img72.imageshack.us/i/glassworts.jpg/][img]http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/557/glassworts.th.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://img440.imageshack.us/i/flowerormushroom.jpg/][img]http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1664/flowerormushroom.th.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://img121.imageshack.us/i/fatglasswort.jpg/][img]http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2710/fatglasswort.th.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://img835.imageshack.us/i/fatglasswort2.jpg/][img]http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/866/fatglasswort2.th.jpg[/img][/url]


Here are some pictures of my inspiration, for your inspiration...
[url]http://www.funonthenet.in/images/stories/forwards/Socotra%20Island/Socotra%20Island.jpg[/url]
[url]http://rxwildlife.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/glasswort.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/09/most-alien-looking-place-on-earth.html[/url]

Edit: Salt stalactites and stalagmites are probably also necessary in this region:
[url=http://img837.imageshack.us/i/saltstalactites.jpg/][img]http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1636/saltstalactites.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I think Worsas' trees would look interesting in the Deshaan plains in small isolated patches. I thought of it after looking at the Lutemoth pic posted above by Myzel
Specifically:
[url]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/deshaan.jpg[/url]
plus
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=294613[/url]

It reminds me of Australia, a little.

Myzel wrote:Also, here is something Lutemoth drew:
Just throwing it out there.
[url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/deshaan.jpg][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/thumb/deshaan.jpg_thumb.jpg[/img][/url]

This should have been thrown out way sooner.

Nalin wrote:

Myzel wrote:Also, here is something Lutemoth drew:
Just throwing it out there.
[url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/deshaan.jpg][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/thumb/deshaan.jpg_thumb.jpg[/img][/url]

This should have been thrown out way sooner.

agreed...I have a few ideas as far as flora & irrigation methods to go along with Lutemoth's piece.
Should be ready in a couple weeks.

Some plants in the Deshaan could excrete resin containing large amounts of salt as a way to survive in the salt-rich soil of the plains.

Oh, I also thought about the irrigation system a bit. Simple systems based on a lever would be interesting but only useful next to bodies of surface water. But it would be interesting to have a building - essentialy a reservoir - which would pump underground water, store it and then divert it to canals which would start at the base of the building and away into the adjacent fields. The building could be a simple Dres building, but on its roof there would be sails (like those of a windmill) or there could be a mechanism which would utilise the labor of slaves or animals (such as those mechanisms used to raise anchors on ships). This mechanism would connect to a pole inside the building and it would provide the necessary rotation of the pole. The other end of the pole, stuck into the floor of the building, would be shaped like a drill, with only a small upper part of the drill visible. The drill would pump underground water into the building, the building itself being a reservoir. The interior would be accessed by stairs running on the outside of the building. (Yes, basically an Archimedes' screw.)
I know this is a long explanation, but the concept is rather simple. I'll try to draw something later on, but I fear that you will still need this explanation, since my drawing skills are rather ridiculous.

For the record, I would like to avoid filling Deshaan with emperor parasol-like shrooms, to set it apart from other regions. A few such mushrooms here and there could be fine.

Gnober: Nice plants. I like.

Jule: Sounds good.

Here are some sketches for the irrigation tower I suggested. I believe I gave a good description of it earlier so I won't go into details now. Just a few more notes:

1. I've made the tower triangular.
2. The color scheme for the irrigation tower should be the same as for other Dres buildings.
3. This version utilises sails to power the mechanism. If there were a version which is powered by slave labor, only the housing of the mechanism would have to be removed and the cog which is attached to the screw replaced by handles or bars.
4. I'm sorry it's hand-drawn and colorless, but it's the best I could do.

I likes the idea of having irrigation towers, but I was thinkin of another approach. I don't know if there was Dwemer in Deshaan plains region. If yes, why can't there be any ancient dwemer machines deep under the ground, that were use d as pumps by the Dwemer long ago and those machines still work.

Me too thinks, that it isn't very logical for that region to be the most frtile without any clever water supplying system. Me would love to see the Deshaan plains rather like a barren moonlike terrain with obscrure salt formation and pale crippled vegetation.

But in some areas where those ancient water pumps are still active there mights be unbelievable rich vegetation and plantations, like they have in desrt oasis. Wouldn't that be nice?

The thing is that the Deshaan plains are supposed to be fertile. I always imagined them to be the breadbasket of Morrowind, and the Dres society reflects this, since their whole society is based on agriculture. Even their tradition of slavery is based on the need to farm the enormous plantations and fields.
I'm not saying it should all be lush and fertile. Clearly, there would be parts which wouldn't be arable. However, I guess the Dres would make good use of every foot of fertile soil they can get hold of.

And I don't believe the Dwemer were into the whole agriculture stuff.

That is pretty cool Jule , I like your consistancy in the look we have for the Dres Architecture.

It would look good in some plantations in the Dres Area. like how Narybael used to have an old windmill.

How feasbile it is to make though is another question. I'd imagine you'd want an animted interior meshe(s) as well as the exterior mesh which may be a little tricky.

Eitherway it would be pretty cool, I'd be in favour for this.

Me neither tinks that Dwemer were into agriculture. I thought like this: A very salty terain originate from former sea in that region. Maybe we could say the Dwemer wanted to lower the water level to be able to dwell undergound and so them dried out whole region with their mighty machines.

When the Dwemer were gone, that Dres use same machines other way round to water their plantings. We could have that barren look and built some nice terraces with saltrice on it, like the y do in asia.

Me thinks it would look awsome to have a few cracks in earth on the plains of Deshaan, where ancient Dwemer machines break through the ground and maybe you can climb even down for a nice dungeon adventure and explore.

Well, maybe me has jut too much fantasy.

It's a nice idea aesthetically, but I think it should remain just an idea. It has pretty big consequences for lore and the nature of House Dres. Not least of all it would mean that their archiculture is not their own accomplisment but that of the Dwemer. The Dres are rather traditional (and xenofobic), so I think they would be opposed to using (or at least have no interest in) Dwemer Technomagicks.

That is why I think I'd prefer Dunmer irrigation systems.

Oh, i see, well i didn't knw Dres were so odd people, lol.

Myzel wrote:It's a nice idea aesthetically, but I think it should remain just an idea. It has pretty big consequences for lore and the nature of House Dres. Not least of all it would mean that their archiculture is not their own accomplisment but that of the Dwemer. The Dres are rather traditional (and xenofobic), so I think they would be opposed to using (or at least have no interest in) Dwemer Technomagicks.

That is why I think I'd prefer Dunmer irrigation systems.

I completely agree...given the description we have of the Dres; make use of slaves for not only planting & harvesting the salt rice, but also for gathering water for irrigation.

Regarding that Irrigation System - May I suggest we go with Jule's idea (Archimedes' Screw) to draw the water up for irrigation of the salt terraces...though, a more practical/simple solution for powering this pump would be to make use of the slaves (pushing the wheel to work the pump)
See image:
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/William-Stout-Concept-Art-Wheel-of-Pain1.jpg

Use of a windmill seems impractical (given you would need many to dot a plantation to compensate for shifting wind directions)- A single wheel-irrigation system would not only conserve space, but also provide a central theme and decor amongst the various plantations.
In effect, giving TR, our modelers, & CS modders, a chance to shine

Better yet, if the Dres needed to make use of slaves elsewhere, have the wheel pulled by tethered Guars (as various mills in the U.S. Southern plantations did with horses).

Myzel, one thing I need to know before I can draw up a concept for the salt-rice terraces & irrigation applied is: What types of bodies of water exist in Deshaan Plains? (I.e. Nile-like rivers? Small lakes? Ponds? Canyon streams? Underground reservoirs? Multiple Oasis?)

PS: I have all of next week to draw up a few ideas

I don't think any of these bodies of water should be excluded. The main reason why I suggested using a tower was because it could serve as a reservoir. I thought about using slaves to power the mechanism too, but I didn't know how it would be animated (or whether it was possible at all). I didn't mean the towers to be everywhere: they were supposed to be rather rare, since some plantations would have access to surface water. Only the most powerfull and wealthiest landowners would be able to construct these.

Just remember that

At the absolutely largest geographic scale the entire Deshaan forms a single, huge valley/rift in Morrowind. This fact wouldn't be noticeable anywhere from very high up, and to a normal player would probably be invisible. The only in-game effect is that leaving the Deshaan in whatever direction always requires climbing out of it and crossing the valley walls. Of course the region itself is so big that it still has smaller valleys and hills in it.

It's of aesthetic importance that this region includes some height usage we've been afraid of so far. Everyone will be using MGE and distant land by the time we're done with this, and most of our landscape relatively flat. MGE is too much of a brilliant tool to not use this. I use Red Mountain as a measure here, it's approx 3 x TR_cliff meshes tall, and I've estimated the south end of thirr river valley to rise to approx 2 sizes tall and then slowly descend southwards, having the Deshaan plains form a downward slope. Remember that the Dres rule over larger areas than just the plains, and we'll cover them as well.

I think a valley of this size should have a very large river running down the middle (how else would it form?). Therefor, in my mind, an irigation system would constitute a number of pipes running from the river to the various farms and plantations. Maybe these pipes are powered by large 'nodding donkey' structures, like those that drain oil in America, only powered by slaves pulling one end down. I also like Jule's archemedes' screw idea, but the problem with these two ideas is that you would need a large animated static with slaves attached, which would be difficult to do. That or you create an animation and script the slaves to rotate round it. A slave powered oil pipe might work better because the slaves don't have to move, so you can just create an animation and put them next to an animated static.

I really don't think "nodding donkey" oil derricks are something that would look right in Morrowind. Archimedes screws look cool, and look pretty plausible for a society that hasn't developed along the same lines as ours. How exactly that screw is going to be turned can be decided seperately.

The Greatness wrote:I think a valley of this size should have a very large river running down the middle (how else would it form?).

We would form it in the CS.
Lame, I know, but it references the truth I don't tire to point out: Morrowind Isn't Real. However, you are right, the Thirr river does happen to run through or along Deshaan on our maps.

Therefor, in my mind, an irigation system would constitute a number of pipes running from the river to the various farms and plantations. Maybe these pipes are powered by large 'nodding donkey' structures, like those that drain oil in America, only powered by slaves pulling one end down.

Way too techno in my opinion. More rudimentary archicultural and irrigation techniques would be more fitting to Dres' traditional nature. Canals are a possibility if done right. I also love the idea of waterscrews being used to lift water. Animation isn't a necessity I think. The presence of such machinery would be enough to set the mood. (We never actually see slaves working on Vvardenfell either. They're always just standing there. If you ask me they deserve a good whipping.)

Myzel wrote:

The Greatness wrote:I think a valley of this size should have a very large river running down the middle (how else would it form?).

We would form it in the CS.
Lame, I know, but it references the truth I don't tire to point out: Morrowind Isn't Real. However, you are right, the Thirr river does happen to run through or along Deshaan on our maps.

Excellent, to have a large river like this would produce some interesting geographical features - minor canyons, valleys and such (Odai Plateau and it's river nearby come to mind)
I should be able to draw up an irrigation system/plantation along a ridge-line that pumps water from the river and directs it to the Salt-rice terraces that cascade a valley below.

Therefor, in my mind, an irigation system would constitute a number of pipes running from the river to the various farms and plantations. Maybe these pipes are powered by large 'nodding donkey' structures, like those that drain oil in America, only powered by slaves pulling one end down.

Myzel wrote:Way too techno in my opinion. More rudimentary archicultural and irrigation techniques would be more fitting to Dres' traditional nature. Canals are a possibility if done right. I also love the idea of waterscrews being used to lift water. Animation isn't a necessity I think. The presence of such machinery would be enough to set the mood.

My thoughts exactly on this
Besides, every single plantation in the area having water rights to the river (accessibility of its water via piping) seems boring.
Imagine what kind of storyline would be available from having a healthy competition over access to the river.
Interesting quest-lines could accompany this, interesting characters (thinking more merchant-type/entrepreneurial types), and lots that can be done with various factions/families competing over available resources.

Example quest: Escort guar-convoy carrying water from river to [plantation name], etc.

Remember Hlaalu competitor quests like the one to kill the Kwama Queen outside of Suran?
This sort of thing keeps to the spirit and flavor of Morrowind.

Myzel wrote:(We never actually see slaves working on Vvardenfell either. They're always just standing there. If you ask me they deserve a good whipping.)

Lulz

Cathartis wrote:I really don't think "nodding donkey" oil derricks are something that would look right in Morrowind. Archimedes screws look cool, and look pretty plausible for a society that hasn't developed along the same lines as ours. How exactly that screw is going to be turned can be decided seperately.

The idea of that was that in order to move water along pipes there needs to be something pulling it from the other end. These 'oil derricks' (seriously, derrick?) don't need to look like modern ones at all, just use a similar mechanism (only slave powered). They'd be made of wood and would be basically made of a piece of wood supported by an 'A' shape, with one end attached to the pipe and the other to some slaves. I'll draw you one, but I'm pretty rubbish so don't consider it art.

Myzel, I realise that Morrowind isn't real but if we don't take these basic considerations in someone will be walking through Deshan and suddenly stop and think 'wait a minute'. It would completely break the immersion. I'm trying to stick to basic points that won't get in the way of gameplay though.

Oh, and I'm sigging that slave quote.

Hello, i did animation tutorial today and tried to do a working slave. Oh, well, actualy it is a coprus stalker, but I will try to texture him in Photoshop.

Animation is not perfct yet, but i done first time today.

Here is a video I made with fraps, me has uploaded it for you guys:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CA99CNUH

Megaupload sucks, jst loaded it up yesterday and now link is alredy broken.

MegaUpload does regular maintenance of their servers on various days. It is simply unlucky that the server your file uploaded to was getting maintenance the day after. Your file is still safe, and will be available from there in a day or two.

Megaupload sucks, jst loaded it up yesterday and now link is alredy broken.

It's probably better that you upload it here anyway (or on Youtube, when it it a video...)

Id say that this looks very interesting, especially considering it is you first try... I needs a bit of work, as you are probably aware of, but this is very good...

I'm adding new flora ideas:

[url=http://img23.imageshack.us/i/deshaanflora1.jpg/][img]http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8836/deshaanflora1.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Sorry for poor coloring, I'm doing this with a mouse... Maybe I'll do it differently next time. I'm working on more plants and started an atmospheric piece to show my vision of the plain, in line with Myzel guidelines, so stay tuned.

By the way, I really like what you did Gnober, especially n3 and n5.

Awaiting feedback!

Nice. I like the flower as a concept, if it'd be tall. It could use some more interesting details, but that's minor critique.

I can draw a more detailed version in the next days. Do you think it's lacking features like leaves, or just some more details on the flower itself? Because I first thought of it as a leafless plant. Anyway, I'll have a second shot with more details and a character for scaling (I'd like to see a really tall leafless flower!)

EDIT: I almost forgot, you might want to have a look at this (some of this website articles are kinda interesting for inspiration): the Salar Uyuni, greatest salt lake in the world in Bolivia, so big that you can hardly see the other end, a bit like Deshaan plains I think.

[url]http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/01/train-graveyard-in-bolivia.html[/url] especially the "inundated salt beds", not the trains of course. I also like the cracked look of the ground, maybe it could be interesting to design the plains' ground.

YanShun wrote:I can draw a more detailed version in the next days. Do you think it's lacking features like leaves, or just some more details on the flower itself? Because I first thought of it as a leafless plant. Anyway, I'll have a second shot with more details and a character for scaling (I'd like to see a really tall leafless flower!)...

I didn't mean anything specific. I just thought it looks a little bit too simple atm.

The Salar Uyuni is definitely a very awe-insiring landscape. It is practically impossible to create anything like it in Morrowind though, or in any open world video game. Deshaan plains simply cannot be empty, while that is exactly what makes those salt lakes and deserts so awesome.

Of course the plains can't be empty, but I thought the pics could help, especially like this one: [url]http://lh5.google.ca/abramsv/R5pMk-9HirI/AAAAAAAAFDU/nmgTMjkkvEE/s1600-h/04012008952.jpg[/url].
I think that the dres field could look a bit like this, with rice-like plants or anything appropriate.

Edit: a new version of the tall flower, forgot to put a character for scaling but the plant would be like 4 meters tall.

[url=http://img829.imageshack.us/i/deshaanflora2.jpg/][img]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5448/deshaanflora2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The idea is that the petals are slowly solidifying and becoming part of the trunk (a bit like palm trees I guess) while new ones are produced by the bud.

Definitely an improvement. Very nice concept.

YanShun wrote:
a new version of the tall flower, forgot to put a character for scaling but the plant would be like 4 meters tall.

[url=http://img829.imageshack.us/i/deshaanflora2.jpg/][img]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5448/deshaanflora2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The idea is that the petals are slowly solidifying and becoming part of the trunk (a bit like palm trees I guess) while new ones are produced by the bud.

Very nicely done, Yanshun...really liked the solidifying petals bit too.

Thanks Kieren.

Let's talk about irrigation again. I should say I pretty much agree with Greatness. In fact, I came up with something very similar to his "A shape derrick" (unless I'm mistaken and misunderstood) while thinking about the plains possible irrigation systems.

I'll post a concept this evening but I won't put too much effort in the drawing as I'm preparing some other pieces, but I just want you to see exactly what I'm talking about, in order to fuel the discussion.

Roughly, it's a well with 4 wood beams supporting a rope pulled by a (few?) guar(s)/slave(s). A big bucket is tied at the end and slaves pour the water into irrigation channels.

The tower idea seems cool too, but I think only one or two really wealthy Dres tycoons should have this type of large-scale facilities, while the others sould bear with cheaper (but still really slave-requiring, that's Dres agriculture!) machinery.

Here are a couple of sketches I made some time ago. I noticed that some people have trouble with the idea of 'arid' and 'fertile' being combined, so with these drawings I tried to unify those two concepts. This is how I imagine the plains could look in some spots. Don't mind the flora. It's mostly placeholder, I suspect.

[url=http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3467/deshaan1.jpg][img]http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3467/deshaan1.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2926/deshaan2.jpg][img]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2926/deshaan2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Really nice Myzel! Can't wait to upload mine too, but it'll be more a global view.
By the way, here is the sketch about irrigation. Looks even more crap considering last posts but it's a good illustration of what I said.

[url=http://img528.imageshack.us/i/irrigationstuff0001.jpg/][img]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5548/irrigationstuff0001.th.jpg[/img][/url]