Spider Daedra

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:49 pm

I am opening this discussion to help get the Sutadee topic back on track: recently there has been discussion about the Spider Daedra I am making from my concept art,and the Dridrea that was made by Vorrheis.

To help get everyone up to speed, this is my concept:

[img]http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/17853_161669.jpg[/img]

...and as of this writing, here is the model I am working on:

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/snapshot5.jpg[/img]

... and here is the Dridrea:

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Dridrea1.jpg[/img]

Now for the discussion...

There were some who felt that the Dridrea was the Spider Daedra, but I am of the opinion that the Dridrea is a separate creature, and most likely a Telvanni or Dres creation. Part of what contributes to this is the fact that two of her body parts are made from Kwama Worker/Warrior pieces, as can be seen here:

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Dridrea2.jpg[/img]

Furthermore, the Dridrea does not follow the design of the Spider Daedra as found in Battlespire:

[img]http://www.cd.chalmers.se/~conan/battlespire/pics.dir/monsters/spider.jpg[/img]

...whereas the design of mine more closely resembles it. (I used this image to help design it, after all)

Also note that the gender of the Spider Daedra appears to be male, despite Mephala generally being recognized as female.

So here are my thoughts...

I would like to keep the Dridrea, as it is a good model, and use it as a Dres or Telvanni creation. It, in my opinion, does not look enough like the Spider Daedra to suit, and as Vorrheis gave it an alternate name, I doubt he intended for it to be used as a Spider Daedra.

I will continue making my Spider Daedra regardless of any consensus, as it is being used in my portfolio as well. If TR deems it worthy of the role of Spider Daedra, all the better.

Now, the thing about Vorrheis' models (all of them so far as I can tell): while the meshes are very good, the animations are in need of some help. There is an effort underway to track him down and see if we can get his original Max files, in order to repair the animations. Otherwise I am of the opinion that his current creations are not up to snuff for TR. So here's hoping for a successful hunt, as I would hate to loose those models.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:17 pm

youve got my backing on that front, and I am soooo glad someone is picking up working on creatures, uldar, never leave us haha, even if you work for BS, pweeeeease?

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:23 pm

perhaps we can use both as "spider daedra" having two genders of the type.

I'm still versing myself in morrowind modeling, but I'd like to break into creatures eventually.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:20 pm

How bout this?

Spider Daedra (by Uldar): common spider daedra. We can take soem liberties with desgin, though. I don't like the original desgin too much myself, it could be more ... Spider-y.

Dridrea: Boss/unique creature. Should be larger than the spider daedra, because of that. Hence, the SD should be made smaller (noticably, though not too much) than the Dridrea.

I like Uldar's concept too, to make this clear. It's just that Vorr's creature is too good to be dropped.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:21 pm

I like that idea hermit, make the dridrea a higher form in the service to mephala.

let me see if i can grab a few frames from the OB trailer of their spider daedra, so we can keep the look consistant.

Note: vorrheis wanted to have the new daedra with a more original look to them, which is why its a bit different.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:08 pm

Yep, Vorr had the same feeling that the BS SD looked a tad bland that I had. Maybe we could make his mesh, the Dridrea, some sort of high guardian of Mephala?

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:14 pm

I would switch the names around though. Generally creatures given the name "deadra" are stronger and more intellegent then more creature like and named things. Ex scamp, ogrim, atronach are weak and deadra lords, succubi, ect are generally very strong. just my opinion.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:21 pm

You are a fantastic artist, Uldar! One thing I am somewhat concerned with is that this creature will appear TOO much like a spider and not enough like a daedra. From your concept sketch, one would have to look rather closely to notice that it is, in fact, anything other than a large spider whereas in the BS picture, the creature is clearly of humanoid form from a great distance.

Aside from this minor quibble, I wholeheartedly agree that the dridrea concept is not completely accurate either. Your spider daedra would be excellent for the non-unique iterations of this demon. I beleive that since the dridrea is female, an enlarged version of that model would be perfect for an Avatar of Mephala such as the Aspect of Hircine. Although I think I might like to see a darker retexture for that.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:00 pm

I think that your model should be the Didrea and the current Didrea should be the High Didrea or something.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:57 pm

assassinace is right. lets just make the dridrea a lower form of a spider daedra. kindof like a scamp compared to a herne or morphoid daedra.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:09 am

Gotta remember though that the current animations for Vorrheis's spider daedra are... well, just plain awful, and it has other problems as well. I was testing it out in Sirrilas to see how it looks in the sort of setting it's intended for, and the legs clip through the walls in the Daedric hallways. I also really dislike the color scheme of it for a spider Daedra. The brown just isn't scary enough, and it doesn't blend in with the Daedric ruins, which I think it should do, as it just makes them that much harder to spot and that much creepier if one sneaks up on you (I think they should move fast and quietly). Uldar and I were discussing these on IRC a couple weeks ago and we had a lot of good ideas relating to them I think, and I belive if done properly these could be one of the creepiest monsters in TR.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:03 am

Anything spider-y is creepy fullstop but then again couldnt you simply retexture the creature and resize it in CS? Or are the animations that bad?

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:37 pm

[edited for stupidity]

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:22 pm

@ Lady N: (EDIT) No Worries

@ Kenshin: The animations on the Dridrea are, more or less, that bad. As I mentioned in the first post, I am attempting to contact Vorrheis and either get him to repair them or get the files so that I may do so myself.

In either event a resize and retexture would definitely help. The retexture would largely consist of just darkening the current textures, though I would like to disguise the Kwama parts better.

As yet no luck in finding Vorrheis.

And, my Spider Daedra is fully animatable (boned and rigged) and texturing begins tonight.

I'll keep you all posted on my progress...

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:31 pm

i did read all of it...explain my error to me would ya? cause i dont realy see it. sorry none the less...

hm..now i have to say something on topic. the creature-what ever ya wana call it, spider daedra, deidriha(i have no idea how thats speled :p) -- is awsome!

[edit] i desicded to same myself some embaresment, and yall some trouble, and just edit away my post.

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:32 am

hey hey, textures have been applied and I am ready to begin animating...

so here is a sneak peak at the Spider Daedra (if we all agree that is what it will be):

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Snap2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Snap1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Snap3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Snap4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/Snap5.jpg[/img]

and here are a few of a semi-textured version I placed in the CS for scale checking (I had to reduce it to 81% to get its legs to fit in the hall but it is still pretty big

):

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/scaledinCS.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/scaledinCS2.jpg[/img]

and here it is with full lighting off (though the interior uses the default -bright- light settings) to see how well it will be able to hide in the shadows:
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Uldar/scaledinCS3.jpg[/img]

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:08 am

Looks really good. Allthough I have really no standing or experience in this area, I think that it would look a lot better in black or very dark brown (with red eyes). It would seem to blend in better, allthough it may look too much like a normal spider then. Just my 2C.

Negrodomous · Post by **Negrodomous** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:41 am

Dude... that is so awesome! Uldar, did you model that?! Great work!

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:43 am

I also reckon it looks good, but it being dark grey or black with red highlights would improve it a lot.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:11 am

That is amazing, beautiful texturing, inspires me to make clicking footsteps to go along with it...

Graff.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:18 am

Umm, Uldar could you make the textures more hi-res please ? Because IMO they look too blurry.

Kasan Moor · Post by **Kasan Moor** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:31 pm

I hope it is not too late, but could you change the model a bit to have the chest part more bend backwards, more in a 90 degree curve, and make the head a little more humanoid looking. It doesn't look that much like a daedra now.

Just my two cents.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:45 pm

That's awesome! I agree that black is the way to go, though.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:47 pm

Looks like a Daedra to me. I think the model is perfect.
As for textures, it is already really dark. The screenshots you see have the brights on, so it looks a lot lighter than it really is. Uldar has been showing me the textures as he has been creating them, and we both agreed that a black texture would dull down the model a lot. This ochre texture will still make the spider almost invisible in the standard darkness of a Daedric ruin, while allowing you to see the detail of the model when you are up close.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:11 pm

It would be nice to see some glowmapped red designs on the abdomen to add to the Daedricness of it.

Awesome model.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:18 pm

Maybe this could be called a Didrea Lord and the other could just be Didrea.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:21 pm

Eh.... they're too different. Besides their spidery appearance, they have basically nothing in common. Uldar's has eight limbs total, Vorrheis' has ten. Uldar's has a spider head, Vorrheis' has a humanoid head. The Dremora Lord is just a high-level Dremora, not a different model altogether.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:35 pm

True. Spider Daedra just seems so...unoriginal.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:49 pm

Well, the word 'dridrea' reeks of D&D, if you ask me.

Apart from that, it's a beautiful model. Kudos to Uldar.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:46 pm

I think I'm in love. I don't totally agree on the texture coloring, as I think using a purple/dark blue scheme to blend in with the ruin would be better, however that model is beautiful. I can't wait to see what you do with the animations.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:21 pm

A note on the coloration:
Look at the different Daedra. Specifically, the Scamp, Ogrim, Winged Twilight, Hunger, Atronachs, Clannfear and Golden Saint. Actually, anything but the Dremoras and Daedroths.
Do any of these Daedra have color schemes that allow them to blend in with the ruins? No, of course not.

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:31 pm

I will take your opinions about the texturing into consideration, but I would ask you to wait until I have the animated (alpha/beta) version in game so you can see how it looks there. If there are still concerns then I will adjust the textures to suit.

And as far as texture resolution, the current textures are 512 X 512 (meaning they will need to be reduced). The fact that they look a bit blurry here is most likely due to the 75% quality JPGs. Again wait to critique the texturing until it is in your game/CS.

Negrodomous · Post by **Negrodomous** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:01 pm

I agree that the back should be arched more to make it look more humanoid... and the textures could be better.

Other than that, I think it's perfect.

EDIT: Wow, I just noticed... the didrea really needs some new textures...

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:12 pm

Uldar wrote:meaning they will need to be reduced

Reduced ? What for ? Hi-res is always welcome if it doesn't stand out of the game enviroment a lot (like some texture replacer which introduced 2048x2048 land textures).

Thirsk · Post by **Thirsk** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:25 pm

WOW! i really like this!, but: theres always a but:
I dont like the brown color, I think is should be dark red with acid green marks on the back (the marks must be wery cool)

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:46 pm

no i disagree, with the textures already in game, something like that would stick out like a sore thumb, morrowind is all about earthtones, not sci fi craziness

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:58 pm

This is incredible, and I love the shades of it. I am just concerned with the "Dridea" part, basically only the name. It just seems a little too D&D (don't kill me Eraser.) They have "Driders" in the Underdark in that screwed up world, so I think if we stick with 'Spider Daedra' we will be ok.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:29 am

EDIT: Wow, sorry about that, I know nothing about meshing, and i was talking about the front legs, not the pedipalps, just how they are extended, as opposed to straight out or slightly bent out. Great work Disregard my n00bishness.

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:57 am

The current pose is a 'skinning pose'. Character modelers use this pose when making a mesh, as it is a somewhat nuetral position for any part of the body that bends. A bipedal character will be positioned with the arms extended out and the legs spread to the point of having the feet about shoulder width apart.

While animating, I created a start pose which resembles the sketch at the top of the page. Most of the animation sequences start and end in that pose.

Also, it should be noted that the smaller front 'legs' you are refering to are known as pedipalps and are parts of the spider's mouth. They use these to manuever food into their mouths. If you look at the head of my Spider Daedra you will notice that the lower jaw is actually the pedipalps. These are also fully animatable.

ThorFluff · Post by **ThorFluff** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:39 pm

Ok, the new one is awesome, scary and i will not judge the skin yet (though i instinctivly think it could be darker)
The old one needs a new skin, absolutly. But it seems as though yours (Uldars, the new one) is less intelligent and incapable of speech, unlike Vorrheis.

I think the "Dridea" could be a superior and tougher enemy then your "Spider Daedra" and it should be able to cast spells.
Either that or the only diffrence is that the "Dridea" is a spellcaster (Paralyze, Poison) anyone?)

Great work all in all