Tamriel Rebuilt

It all started with discussion of Rihad architecture... I'm posting IRC log here with all discussion and links for reference.

[22:23] <Dexter_Kong> rihad is probably a gigantor merchant town
[22:24] <Dexter_Kong> like the last bastion of redguard culture before the imperial boarder
[22:24] <Dexter_Kong> so they would be making huge profits by exporting redguard-made shit
[22:24] <Stalker> I was envisioning it as one of those towns where there's still Redguard traditions being kept
[22:26] <Lady_N> agree with stalker, but i also think that there is alot of imperial influence
[22:26] <Lady_N> like....*cnat come up with rl example*
[22:27] <Stalker> Yes, it's like a crazy mix between two
[22:29] <Dexter_Kong> i think there would be tons of old-school redguard merchants
[22:30] <Stalker> And those snake charmers
[22:31] <Stalker> Snake charmers are a must no matter how hard they are to make
[22:35] <Lady_N> i agree
[22:35] <Morden2260> it would be easy to make a dancing snank coming out of a basket
[22:35] <Lady_N> and the MUST be something conected to concubines. either a market... or a university....
[22:35] <Morden2260> it would be like swaying flora
[22:36] <Stalker> Concubines ?
[22:36] <Stalker> What they have to do with anything ?
[22:36] <Morden2260> there is a big concubine slave trade in Rihad
[22:36] <Stalker> Ahh
[22:36] <Stalker> Cool
[22:36] <Dexter_Kong> dude, redguards would be THE race for a whore market
[22:36] <Morden2260> "come to rihad! Sell your daughter,ect
[22:37] * Stalker sets mode: +oo Lady_N Morden2260
[22:38] <Lady_N> indeed
[22:38] <Stalker> By the way
[22:38] <Stalker> There's an easter egg in Oblivion
[22:38] <Stalker> There's a quest to get rid of rat infestation in some house of Dunmeri women
[22:38] <Stalker> She has the same surname as pillow lady in Balmora
[22:39] <Lady_N> we seriously need to have a big whore industry in all of HF. and i want all my freinds preserved for ever as dirty, cheap whores. with "sucky, sucky. 5 dolla" dialogue preferably
[22:39] <Morden2260> awesome.. and they could've spent that time letting us change animations
[22:39] <Lady_N>
[22:40] <Dexter_Kong> i want to be able to name the leader of a ring of pirates after serra
[22:40] <Morden2260> can we give her a patch eye?
[22:41] <Stalker> And I want to put and always complaining man named Tior Lo
[22:41] <Morden2260> or perhaps a wooden leg?
[22:41] <Lady_N> if we could have the TR pirate crew preserved as some pirates in hf its be tight
[22:41] <Dexter_Kong> no eyepatch or wooden leg, she'd get mad at me
[22:41] <Stalker> Hehe
[22:41] <Lady_N> lol
[22:41] <Stalker> Tior Lo sounds TESish enough, does it ?
[22:42] <Lady_N> as it happens i have a pic of a pirate leader... dotn know how much she looks like serra though.....
[22:42] <Dexter_Kong> who is tior lo supposed to be
[22:43] <Stalker> Well he's my teacher and he's supposed to be always complaining about everything and wanting you to pay him for any extra work he does
[22:43] <Stalker> He also but have a whore-like daughter
[22:43] <Dexter_Kong> ah
[22:43] <Lady_N> lol
[22:43] <Lady_N> HF is gona be so much fun....
[22:48] <Morden2260> what sort of government building would be in Rihad?
[22:48] <Morden2260> its a pretty old city... do you think there would be a palace of sorts? or more like an imperial keep?
[22:48] <Stalker> Palace
[22:48] <Stalker> Definatly palace
[22:48] <Morden2260> either way I don't really like the idea of onion domes in Rihad
[22:49] <Stalker> Yeah, agree
[22:49] <Stalker> They are damn hard to do from materials avaliable around Rihad
[22:50] <Morden2260> a big stone palace would work... something strong but not really fancy
[22:50] <Morden2260> if there is a dome it could be similar to half sphere
[22:51] <Stalker> Hegathe and Totambu for one have High Rock-like castles
[22:51] <Stalker> I'm thinking of something along the line of Byzantine in stone
[22:53] <Stalker> I was thinking that our way of making cities unique would be giving them unique palaces
[22:53] <Stalker> It won't require a lot of work
[22:54] * Proweler has joined #tamriel
[22:54] <Stalker> Hi
[22:55] <Proweler> Hey Stalker
[22:55] * Adanorcil has joined #tamriel
[22:55] <Proweler> you mentioned something about beer and yokudan dancers....
[22:55] <Adanorcil> I see why you wanted me here.
[22:56] <Stalker> OK because QuakeNet kicks for spam
[22:56] <Stalker> I'll shortly retell stuff
[22:56] <Adanorcil> Go ahead.
[22:56] <Stalker> The main idea is that Rihad while being traditionalistic still has strong imperial influence
[22:57] <Stalker> In terms of architecture
[22:57] <Proweler> makes sense, people don't break down buildings to fast
[22:57] <Adanorcil> uhuh
[22:57] <Adanorcil> keep in mind that we are speaking at least 433 years of Imperial occupation though
[22:57] <Stalker> Because of materials avaliable it will be stupid to have onion domes and alike in Rihad
[22:57] <Adanorcil> But still.
[22:58] <Adanorcil> Yes.
[22:58] <Stalker> [22:50] <Morden2260> a big stone palace would work... something strong but not really fancy
[22:58] <Stalker> [22:50] <Morden2260> if there is a dome it could be similar to half sphere
[22:58] <Stalker> [22:51] <Stalker> Hegathe and Totambu for one have High Rock-like castles
[22:58] <Stalker> [22:51] <Stalker> I'm thinking of something along the line of Byzantine in stone
[22:58] <Stalker> I wasn't kicked ? yay
[22:58] <Lady_N> lol
[22:58] <Proweler> hehe
[22:59] <Adanorcil> heh
[22:59] <Lady_N> all i have to add... whould a concubine university work ?
[22:59] <Adanorcil> Mmm. I can agree with that.
[22:59] <Proweler> http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/fzfeens/photo_5/01_Neemrana%20Fort%20Palace.JPG <- Concubine university
[22:59] <Adanorcil> That always does.
[22:59] <Proweler> although I wouldn't call it like that
[22:59] <Dexter_Kong> a sex school?
[22:59] <Lady_N> yea.
[22:59] <Dexter_Kong> hmm
[22:59] <Stalker> I think concubine university would be unique and a nice traditionalistic touch
[22:59] <Dexter_Kong> actually
[23:00] <Lady_N> lol
[23:00] <Proweler> perhaps call them "Companions"
[23:00] <Morden2260> you mean like a gisha?
[23:00] <Dexter_Kong> we could do that
[23:00] <Dexter_Kong> not a full-blown university
[23:00] <Lady_N> duh
[23:00] <Lady_N> just like a place to learn... tricks...
[23:00] <Dexter_Kong> but maybe a small private place
[23:00] <Proweler> haha
[23:00] <Stalker> I am actually thinking of something quite big
[23:00] <Lady_N> thats a realy nice pic
[23:00] <Morden2260> you mean like the Geisha
[23:01] <Morden2260> except these get married off
[23:01] <Stalker> Morden2260: Yeah
[23:01] <Dexter_Kong> no doubt there would be enough business for something like that
[23:01] <Stalker> http://hock.net/photos/greece/monemvasia/monemvasia-upper-ruins-byzantine-church.jpg - here ya go. Bizantine onion replacement
[23:01] <Adanorcil> Do you agree that this is a bit too much:
[23:01] <Adanorcil> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/SofiaCathedral.jpg
[23:01] <Dexter_Kong> especially close to the boarder
[23:01] <Adanorcil> Traditonal octogonal architecture, it looks to me.
[23:02] <Adanorcil> Byzantine style does involve domes.
[23:02] <Stalker> Adanorcil: If you need I can go and make hundreds of photos of it.
[23:02] <Proweler> mmh, your going for a more asian look?
[23:02] <Adanorcil> But that aren't necessarily onion domes.
[23:02] <Stalker> Or not. It's the other Sofia's Cathedral
[23:02] <Dexter_Kong> so...
[23:02] <Dexter_Kong> that image lady N sent
[23:02] <Dexter_Kong> the first one
[23:02] <Stalker> I'm still loading :\
[23:02] <Dexter_Kong> of the concubine university
[23:02] <Stalker> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/SofiaCathedral.jpg - this could actually work as a palace
[23:02] <Lady_N> i didnt send anything....
[23:02] <Dexter_Kong> am i the only one who thinks that style is perfect for the cyrodiil boarder
[23:03] <Lady_N> stalker: no[e
[23:03] <Lady_N> nope* too bazentine
[23:03] <Proweler> "no comment"
[23:03] <Adanorcil> Without the bell tower in any case.
[23:03] <Adanorcil> I agree with Lady N.
[23:03] <Stalker> Doh, it's supposed to be bizantine inspired
[23:03] <Adanorcil> This is obviously later Byzantine art.
[23:03] <Dexter_Kong> no comment is often better expressed by actually not making a comment
[23:03] <Stalker> Add some easterness to it
[23:04] <Lady_N> it has no HF influence. looks like the imperial city arc
[23:04] <Morden2260> byzantine architechture might complicate things
[23:04] <Adanorcil> http://baugeschichte.a.tu-berlin.de/bg/lehre/bild.php?bild_id=2196
[23:04] <Morden2260> we're already trying to mix arabic and asian architecture
[23:04] <Proweler> Adanorcil: link is broken
[23:04] <Adanorcil> works for me. :/
[23:05] <Morden2260> works for me too
[23:05] <Morden2260> that design is nice an simple
[23:05] <Stalker> Brb. Sorry but it's urgent
[23:05] <Proweler> gah, ie
[23:06] <Adanorcil> Halfway between byzantine and roman.
[23:06] * Milamber has joined #tamriel
[23:06] <Proweler> mmh, that's more western though
[23:06] <Adanorcil> Now you would need some unique elements.
[23:07] <Lady_N> link dosent work for me eitehr.
[23:07] <Adanorcil> Strange.
[23:07] <Dexter_Kong> me either
[23:07] <Proweler> try IE lady N
[23:07] <Adanorcil> Perhaps try copying it.
[23:08] <Lady_N> dumb ass bro wants to use the comp so he can sit around duing nothing in aprticular and complain.
[23:08] <Lady_N> ive gtg. see yall. have fun disgusing
[23:08] * Lady_N has quit IRC (Read error: EOF from client)
[23:08] <Proweler> cya
[23:08] <Adanorcil> Bye
[23:08] <Adanorcil> Oops, too late.
[23:08] * T3hAubustou has quit IRC (Read error: EOF from client)
[23:10] <Dexter_Kong> yeah it works in IE
[23:10] <Adanorcil> Sorry, I am one of those IE users.
[23:10] <Milamber> hm, so if I understand it correctly, there are at least 4 ES channels on this network? and all of them seperate and under different management?
[23:11] <Proweler> wich ones?
[23:12] <Milamber> #elderscrolls #oblivion #morrowind and this one
[23:12] <Proweler> found them
[23:13] <Proweler> they seem pretty dead though
[23:14] <Morden2260> yes.. this is the only channel we own
[23:14] <Milamber> #oblivion is rather alive
[23:14] <Morden2260> well.. run atleast
[23:14] <Proweler> aah, this is the silgrad branche
[23:14] <Milamber> Right, quakenet is pretty large isn't it?
[23:14] <Milamber> compared to chatspike for instance I mean.
[23:14] <Morden2260> what about silgrad?
[23:15] <Proweler> well chatspike is a little better on servis I think
[23:15] <Proweler> cleaner
[23:16] <Milamber> I rather like it yes, except for a certain channel founder that is
[23:17] <Proweler> mmh, you don't like archie?
[23:17] <Milamber> To be honest, not really. She seems to play people against others, and if there's one thing i can's stand then it's abuse of power, and she has plenty of that.
[23:18] * Adanorcil nods slightly.
[23:18] <Proweler> can't say I noticed
[23:18] <Milamber> She even banned me, for questioning said abuse.
[23:18] <Proweler> ouch...
[23:18] <Milamber> the ban was very short, but still
[23:18] <Adanorcil> She's a bit easily ticked off.
[23:19] <Adanorcil> But then again, I bet she gets a lot to digest daily.
[23:19] <Proweler> heh, true, takes patience to talk to her
[23:19] <Adanorcil> Say...
[23:19] <Adanorcil> what about adding in some Indian elements?
[23:19] <Adanorcil> like this
[23:20] <Adanorcil> http://www.thefoodclub.org.uk/Neasden.gif
[23:20] <Proweler> sounds good, you'd have a nice region to draw inspirtaion from. Indian, Persian and Byzantian
[23:20] * Milamber is now known as Milamber|away
[23:20] <Adanorcil> Take a guess where that -huge- building is.
[23:20] <Proweler> Las Vegas
[23:20] <Adanorcil> Guess again
[23:20] <Proweler> London?
[23:21] <Proweler> can't think of anybody else who'd emulate something indian
[23:21] <Adanorcil> In Neasden, which is right next to Wembley.
[23:21] <Adanorcil> London suburb.
[23:21] <Proweler> unless it's a trick qeustion ofcourse
[23:21] <Adanorcil> It's rather strange.
[23:21] <Adanorcil> It's this industrial, gray suburb and suddenly
[23:21] <Adanorcil> Boom
[23:21] <Adanorcil> A huge Indian temple
[23:21] <Proweler> mmh, the english have been a rather long time in india
[23:22] <Adanorcil> I've bee, to that temple, you see.
[23:22] <Adanorcil> Well, it's actually brand new.
[23:22] <Proweler> aah, on the exchange
[23:22] <Adanorcil> Extraordinary building.
[23:22] <Adanorcil> They had the whole thing built in India and then shipped it, bit by bit to Neasden.
[23:23] <Proweler> haha
[23:23] <Adanorcil> Really.
[23:23] <Adanorcil> Was fun, you had to take of your shoes to come in.
[23:23] <Proweler> mmh, obviously
[23:23] <Adanorcil> *off
[23:23] <Adanorcil> Strange thing is...
[23:24] <Adanorcil> there's not a single bolt or screw in it.
[23:24] <Proweler> if you go for the indian I wouldn't go for the verry obvious stuff
[23:24] <Adanorcil> No metal at all, just stacked stones.
[23:24] <Adanorcil> No, ofcourse not.
[23:24] <Adanorcil> Not that excessive decoration.
[23:25] <Adanorcil> What I do like are the "square pinecone" tower.
[23:25] <Adanorcil> If you get what I mean.
[23:26] <Proweler> yea sorta
[23:26] <Adanorcil> This is impressive:
[23:26] <Adanorcil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mesaverde_cliffpalace_20030914.752.jpg
[23:27] <Adanorcil> They sure have a cool shade.
[23:29] <Proweler> mm, yea
[23:29] <Morden2260> that site was actually a level in duke nukem 3d
[23:30] <Adanorcil> Hehe.
[23:30] <Proweler> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ellora_cave16_003.jpg <- if you strike all the art from the buildings and replace the brown with a sandy texture you got low class buildings
[23:30] <Proweler> *strip
[23:30] <Stalker> Back
[23:31] <Adanorcil> What's that? Indonesian?
[23:31] <Proweler> indian
[23:31] <Adanorcil> aha
[23:31] <Stalker> So anything interesting ?
[23:32] <Proweler> mmh, trouble finding pictures of indian architecture, mostly the taj mahal
[23:32] <Adanorcil> ofcourse.
[23:32] * Vyvara has joined #tamriel
[23:32] <Stalker> Hi Vyv
[23:32] <Adanorcil> But that's not very representative.
[23:33] <Adanorcil> Far too late.
[23:33] <Vyvara> Hey there, folks.
[23:33] <Adanorcil> Hello, Vyvara.
[23:33] <Proweler> http://www.edwebproject.org/oman-dubai/pics/nakhal.fort.jpg any use?
[23:33] <Adanorcil> Adding some more elements could work.
[23:34] <Adanorcil> I like the round crennelations.
[23:34] <Adanorcil> And the slightly conic shape of the towzer.
[23:34] <Adanorcil> *tower
[23:34] <Proweler> http://www.indiaholidaypackages.com/images/honeymoon-packages/18-days-north-india-tour/agra-fort-agra.jpg
[23:34] <Adanorcil> See, like that.
[23:35] <Proweler> thats the fort near the taj mahal
[23:35] <Proweler> angra it's called
[23:35] <Proweler> http://www.photo.net/philg/digiphotos/200103-d1-jaipur/amber-fort-over-field.half.jpg <- fits the arid landscape
[23:36] <Vyvara> Hmmm.. forums are running at a snail's pace. :\
[23:36] <Adanorcil> Mmm
[23:36] <Adanorcil> I got an idea.
[23:37] * T3hAubustou has joined #tamriel
[23:38] <Proweler> http://www.foxysislandwalks.com/Samospics/Byzantine_Church_Potami.jpg <- rather interesting
[23:40] <Proweler> http://www.jonathanedunn.com/images/property/fotper1/houses.jpg <- perhaps to imperial but it's common
[23:40] <Proweler> http://www.bellereti.com/jzimm/Venice/photos/12-14.jpg <- mid class byzantine, detail
[23:41] <Proweler> thats from Venice btw
[23:41] <Proweler> http://www.iaa.bham.ac.uk/images3/p5.jpg <- courtyard, greek influences, perhaps an idea for the larger mansions?
[23:42] <Proweler> well, that's about it
[23:42] <Adanorcil> http://www.productionillustration.com/images/ffmesopcity.jpg
[23:42] <Adanorcil> Look at those towers
[23:43] <Proweler> mmh, neat
[23:43] <Proweler> exterior entrance though, thats going to be a pain in the ass
[23:43] <Adanorcil> Anyway, I have to go.
[23:43] <Proweler> cya
[23:43] <Adanorcil> I was speaking about the shape in general.
[23:43] <Adanorcil> Bye

I believe that most of Rihad would preceed the formation of the provinces and not have any real influence from Cyrodiil.

Anything looking like Cyrodill would be the result of years of trade and interaction as a boarder town.. both before and after Hammerfell came into the empire. Places like the Palace, temples, noble houses, and residential areas could be traditional, while some Cyrodillian influence shows up in the port and merchantile districts.

Well, I did a few buildings of the same architecture styles for my Wsg submission this week, and I'm looking for an excuse to use them. They're on the front page, think they would fit in as commoner's dwellings? Colors could always change, of course.

Morden wrote:Anything looking like Cyrodill would be the result of years of trade and interaction as a boarder town.. both before and after Hammerfell came into the empire. Places like the Palace, temples, noble houses, and residential areas could be traditional, while some Cyrodillian influence shows up in the port and merchantile districts.

Is it not the nobles and the rich that are the most likely to adopt a new style of arcitecture while the poorer classes will continue using old buildings. Look at the spread of the roman villa across the roman empire for an example.

Starting a new colony in Britain is one thing, building a new villa inside an ancient walled city is another. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure there would be an Cyrodill nobility in Rihad. It's still an independent city state ruled by a Redguard monarchy, and while Hammerfell is a part of the Empire, I don't think imperials exert a lot of influence over the region. I remember reading that it was too much of a wild land... or maybe this was just the Hammerfell interior.

What about a very conservative, traditional area in the heart of the city, with the newer, Imperialized buildings on the outskirts of the city and near the harbor?

From a technical standpoint I'm starting to get weary about adding a mixed architecture. We would have to build the city with one of a our 'old city' architecture sets we make for use throughout the province, and build any cyrodill influenced district with models from Oblivion. I don't think it makes sense to design and model a whole new architecture set which blends the two styles, or looks like Byzantine.. to make a unique 'Border Style'.

I thought that before posting this as official concept art, I should see what everyone thinks.
El Scumbago has recently been sending me some concepts that have a definite Imperial influence to them, and are constructed from stone blocks.
[url=http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hfbuildingconcept67he.jpg][img]http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1800/hfbuildingconcept67he.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hfbuildingconcept73qp.jpg][img]http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3776/hfbuildingconcept73qp.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I think that only lower left tower on second pic fits Imperialized Redguard style.

I feel that both of the bottom towers could be used. Look at the Imperial influence in the battlements and window designs of the one on the right.

Morden wrote:From a technical standpoint I'm starting to get weary about adding a mixed architecture. We would have to build the city with one of a our 'old city' architecture sets we make for use throughout the province, and build any cyrodill influenced district with models from Oblivion. I don't think it makes sense to design and model a whole new architecture set which blends the two styles, or looks like Byzantine.. to make a unique 'Border Style'.

TR has quite a few modellers that come to mind. I think creating the concept art for cities and then modelling and building them isn't the problem TR should be focussing on. Even as the rest of the province is being built, people can be modelling buildings and so on. We should be making Hammerfell to the best of our ability, if that means a few more buildings being modelled, so be it, it's not a huge tax on resources. Oblivion has gone to the pains of reflecting a mix of architectures, and it would reflect poorly on TR if we didn't follow that example.

Well since Rihad is walled and has apparently been walled for a pretty long time why not have the city within the walls and have an outer city? One that has been built primarily since Hammerfell was incorprated into the Empire, thus it would have a more cyrodilic architecture style to it. This could be the same for other large walled cities as well so the models themselves would not be a Rihad exclusive.

Thing is, when cities built walls - they built the cities in the walls. Only slums, lepreums and asylums were really located outside the city walls. I can't imagine it being too much different in Hammerfell.

I see your point it would be more likely to be a slum outside the walls unless the city is pretty old and prosperous. By the way how old is Rihad?

It's like everybody has forgotten that Ob uses Mournhold style cities for those big cities aka interior exteriors. So we MUST have walls around cities and even city blocks.