Hammerfell Ecology

[Eyeball88]

Now that the map of Hammerfell is mostly finished, we've got an idea of the varied ecosystems that the province contains. From swamp to forest to grassland to desert, Hammerfell has more extreme conditions and ecosystems than Morrowind or Cyrodiil, which means there is a lot of potential for us to create a stunning landscape.

I'd like to create a thread here with discussions on the ecosystems, because I see them coming up in the map and concept art threads, so it is obviously something that people are taking an interest in.

I've broken the main map up into regions based on the colouring of the map. This way, we can do a region-by-region breakdown of the ecology, flora and fauna of each area of Hammerfell, with lore to reinforce, or, in the case where lore doesn't exist, the weather/ecosystem patterns of our own world (rainfall speculation, real-world counterparts like the Tors, etc.)
[url=http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hammerfellecoregions8xy.jpg][img]http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6395/hammerfellecoregions8xy.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Please, feel free to add any suggestions; I'll edit them into my post as I go along, and get core approval as the list grows longer.

Region 1

The eastern part of this region, along the Cyrodiil border appears to be very similar to Anvil, with low hills and grass. Towards Rihad, the rivers and more precipitation lead to an ecosystem that is lusher than Anvil's yellow-grass hills; the "temperate grassland." These conditions allow for perfect farmland: orchards, vineyards, etc. Most of the coastal forests are protected from the brunt of the ocean's wind by nearby HNES RAX, so they are not harshly weathered.

Flora:
A variety of grapes and fruit trees can be grown with ease. Wildflowers like Lupin.

Fauna:
This is still fairly familiar territory to anyone who has wandered Cyrodiil; deer, and wolves will be common.

Locations of Interest:
Rihad, Stonemoor, Roseguard

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/4803/kelowna7sm.jpg[/img]

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Region 2

Nothing really worth mentioning; this seems to be a buffer zone, between the Anvil region, the Rihad region and the mountains. Yellow/brown grass, and a road. It doesn't quite fit in with the lusher parts of Region 1, or the moors of region 3, but will blend in to both.

Flora:

Fauna:

Locations of Interest:
There's a road!

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/2444/grassland1cnova9ur.jpg[/img]

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Region 3

This is the start of the drier grasslands. The only buffer between this region and the dry, desolate wasteland of Region 18 is the thin marshy line of Nimbelmoor. Despite the ring of forests, and the river cutting through the middle, this region is still brown and dry, with shorter shrubs and grasses.

Flora:
Smaller stunted shrubs and trees, hardier flowers.

Fauna:
One would imagine Hyenas appearing in these territories.

Locations of Interest:
Elinhir.

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7934/moorimdovrefjell3re.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/2040/dovrefjell26fg.jpg[/img]

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Region 4

Dry mountains with forests on one slope. For the most part these hills/mountains are rock and dirt, with few trees. The plants growing here are very hardy and short, most likely clinging to ground and rocks for survival. To the north-west there appears to be a water-source, a waterfall pouring down to contribute to the lusher climate of Region 8.

Flora:
Smaller stunted shrubs and thinner trees, a lot of lichens and other ground-climbing plants.

Fauna:
Mountain fowl like quails, mountain goats.

Locations of Interest:
Stonedale.

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/2176/kelownalayercakemountain1au.jpg[/img]

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Region 5

The snow capped mountains bordering Skyrim contribute to the lush, thick forests of this region; runoff from the melting snow travels down into the forests and various small valleys that are nestled amongst these mountains. As such, this is a region of thick forests and vibrant mountain life.

Flora:
Coniferous forests.

Fauna:
Bears, Mountain Goats, Deer.

Locations of Interest:
Stonedale.

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/8688/windingstreambanffnationalpark.jpg[/img]
(Maybe not quite this green.)

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Region 6

A bleak, grey buffer zone between two dry mountain ranges. This region is interesting in that it sets the "mood" of Hammerfell's deserts by being depressing, colourless, rocky and lifeless and then suddenly merges with lush riverlands.

Flora:
Sparse grass.

Fauna:
Rock-dwelling bugs like smaller scorpions/scarabs.

Locations of Interest:
Vulkneu Town

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/2486/desolatemanandhorse5oh.jpg[/img]

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Region 7

The "Corten Mont." A large range of grey mountains. No trees grow in the higher regions, only clumps of grass and lichen. There appear to be large sources of water in the tops of these mountains, the most notable being the source of Karnver Falls. Numerous waterfalls crash down onto jagged rocks from these sources.

I am not sure what the darker "pit" just slightly north-east of the "Corten Mont" title is supposed to be.

Flora:
Sparse grass clumps, lichens.

Fauna:


Locations of Interest:
Karnver Falls, North Hall, Stonemoor

Suggested look of this region:
[img]http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/5371/2113jackiechrismordor4zn.jpg[/img]

[Lady Nerevar]

i prety much agree ( )

anyhow, this is how i envision the Shady Grove area:

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2364/shadygrove9ul.jpg[/img][/url]

perhaps a less water though.... anyhow, this site is in texas, and could therefore work for HF.

[Macar]

Thanks for the numbered map, that will make discussion easier. So far I concur with your ideas.

Here's something I've been thinking for a while. I think 18, the Alkir desert, could take up more space. I suggest that is expanded thusly:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/Macar/hammerfellecoregions8xy.jpg

Just streaching it a little into nieboring riegons will make it a good deal bigger. After all, lore says that most of hammerfell is desert.

The map makes the the easter desert look like this:
http://www.littlereview.com/west2003/lavaflow.jpg

While the western one looks more like this:
http://home.online.no/~gmorgan/cv/images/2002-10-27-0043-Algeria-dune-K2-summit.JPG

I think they should be switched...

[Eyeball88]

I would like to see the giant basin in the center become a desert similar to the great erg dunes, it does seem more fitting to the feel of Hammerfell's desolation. I don't know how the lore of previous games affects this though.

[Macar]

Well there are only a few citties on the borders of it, if they are just moved back a bit, all the riegons are still there, only the size of the regions has changed. I doubt this would affect lore at all.

[Anonymous]

Copied from my post on the map thread:

Okay I have a lot of evidence to back up what ONE AREA should be! Just a small bit but it should help...

http://www.uesp.net/tamriel/geography/images/westtamriel.jpg

This is a map of the West Coast of Tamriel (obviously). If you will direct your attention to the top right of hammerfell, just north of the mountains, you will see the word 'Drancstor'. Now this will not mean much to most people, but I have just spent 4 days on Dartmoor hiking up and down Tors. Tors are large (VERY LARGE) hills.

Skip this bit if you dont want the geography...

Tors were originally deep deep underground. Magma cooled under about 3km of earth very slowly, forming large crystals as it solidified. In Dartmoor's case, the minerals made up Granite. Over millenia the earth above has been eroded, exposing the granite at te top of the hill. A tor essentially looks like a huge hill with a massive pile of stones on it (Size of a house is pretty small...a few hours ago I was atop Cox Tor, rock pile the size of an office block on its side, and it was so high I could see the sea from the middle of Devon). This is a view from the top (not a pic of mine but heyho...thats Great Staple Tor in the picture) http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/homes/s0343482/tor.jpg

So why a moor? Well, it makes sense. Moors are Barren. I cannot describe just how barren they are, I'm talking being able to see for over 50 miles in every direction and not seeing a plant over 3 foot high. On the north moor (the most barren area!) its all just tough hardy grasses and bracken. What few plants there are, are really interestingly coloured...one area was all yellow and red from the plants. This fits the barren nature of Hammerfell. It would also make a wonderful transition from Hammerfell into Skyrim and High Rock...its a landtype which can fit all three.

Also a definiton of a moor is that it is wet. Very wet. Now, you may think Hammerfell is very dry...and you would be right. This implies there must be something shielding it from rainfall...and if you are looking along the northern edge the mountains would be an obvious barrier. But the rain would just build up there...thus the moor!

But wait...theres MOOR! (couldnt resist the pun)

Theres even towns with Moor in the name in Hammerfell, so there has to be moorland around in that country.

You may wonder how it would look good though, after all you dont want to walk up out of a desert, over a hill and suddenly be in a bog...well thats where heathland comes in. This is essentially the same as moorland but dry and hot. This makes for the same sort of striking landscape without the tors (less erosion) and with a whole different set of plants...many of which would also be suitable for desert life. Also moors and heaths are ridiculously beautiful in a very rugged way. This isnt a picturesque sort of thing...this is lethal terrain, even in this day and age. Go out on a moor unprepared, and you will probably die. With the lack of tall vegetation you just see the land, and when you are 300m up its amazing to see the ground drop from under your feet, sweep down and then back up to another tor 3km away with a tall spire of stone on it.

So thats what Im offering up...think about moors and heaths as well as desert. What Im suggesting is that around mountains it should go into moors or heaths...heaths on the sides with deserts, moors on the sides with other landtypes. I think that would really fit the whole hammerfell idea.


Basically this fits with what you have so far to a certain extent. I would classify your region 3 as heathland and you region 6 as moors. Im pretty sure that the area north of the dragontail mountains should be moorland and bogs.

[the Bard]

I think regions 8 and 11 should be something of savanna-like ( http://www.plantzafrica.com/vegetation/vegimages/savanna3.jpg ) terrain as they border straight on deserts so it would make sense if there were a desert area with more vegetation (like the kalahari desert) and that would fade into savanna.

[Morden]

We'll have to choose how many different 'eco-regions' are feesible. The map is actually a bit too diverse. Eyeball has found 20 unique areas, and I don't think we have the resources or the man power to make new models for each. We'll have to decide which of the outlined regions are similar enough to eachother that they can be made more or less the same in terms of new textures and new flora.

[Anonymous]

Yes savannah might be nice, but I think its sorta a bit too 'nice'. Its not a particularly harsh-looking landscape really. Scrubland would be more 'Hammerfell' I think.

[Eyeball88]

We'll have to choose how many different 'eco-regions' are feesible. The map is actually a bit too diverse. Eyeball has found 20 unique areas, and I don't think we have the resources or the man power to make new models for each. We'll have to decide which of the outlined regions are similar enough to eachother that they can be made more or less the same in terms of new textures and new flora.

Yeah, without a large team of flora modellers, things could get pretty insane. I think it would be feasible enough to change simple grass textures in a gradient from greens to yelllows and browns for the border of Cyrodiil. You don't need many plant models there, and a lot of it can be reused through what I have as 8, 9 and 11. Most of the regions I outlined could easily be accomplished with texture changes on the ground, not needing new meshes until the deserts.

The basic outline for what Hammerfell could be split up into is:

The dry mountain ranges (most of them,) the dry grasslands, and the dry deserts, the moist grasslands, the boreal rainforests and bogs (north and along the coast.)

[Anonymous]

A lot can be done with weather effects and sound effects. Walking through dartmoor as I have this past week, theres this clumpy grass everywhere. EVERYWHERE. You get it in dry areas, where it makes a crunchy, springy sound. You get it in wet muddy areas where it sorta rustles. You get it down in the boggy areas where it acts as stepping 'stones' and squelches. Its everywhere!
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photos/02/33/023345_318bfc66.jpg

[CleverClothe]

It does seem a bit unusual for 8 to be surrounded by very dry land and mountains. Perhaps the eastern half should be added to the desert, and the western should be a part of 9?

Or maybe seasonal growth for that region.

BTW, there is an unmarked region next to 9 and 10.

[Lutemoth]

for more detailed examples of Region 1 (since google can be pretty sparce):

[url=http://fs4.deviantart.com/i/2004/243/1/9/Okanagan_Valley_1.jpg]1[/url]
[url=http://fs4.deviantart.com/i/2004/243/3/c/Okanagan_Valley_2.jpg]2[/url]
[url=http://fs7.deviantart.com/i/2005/222/8/8/blue_blue_yellow_by_miztaters.jpg]3[/url]
[url=http://fs7.deviantart.com/i/2005/258/a/8/My_Home_by_supernovamajesty.jpg]4[/url]
[url=http://fs6.deviantart.com/i/2005/068/7/a/Burned_Hills_by_FL1P51D3.jpg]5[/url]
[url=http://images.deviantart.com/i/2003/40/1/7/Places_Like_This_Do_Exist.png]6[/url]

[Anonymous]

Hehe whats the obsession with the Okanagen?

I have relatives there in Kelowna. Beautiful place.

When we are placing regions we will need to think logically. The desert is dry because there is no rainn, so there must be a barrier stopping the wet sea winds. Therefore the mountains must recieve a lot of rain. This could create rainforests, but that would not be very Hammerfell, would it. Thus you get your bogs, marshlands, heaths and moors.

[Lutemoth]

hehe, what can I say? I love crawling around in brushland
With close promimity to the other continents, and a possible climate relation to the Summerset Isle, my guess is there should be a lot of incoming weather, and might be brushed off into the Illiac bay.

I should grab some screenshots of daggerfall's Hammerfell, as the background mountain ranges near Sentinel are very lush and forested, whilst the Alik'r provinces recieve a view at barren, dead mountains..

[Eyeball88]

Hehe whats the obsession with the Okanagen?

I have relatives there in Kelowna. Beautiful place.

When we are placing regions we will need to think logically. The desert is dry because there is no rainn, so there must be a barrier stopping the wet sea winds. Therefore the mountains must recieve a lot of rain. This could create rainforests, but that would not be very Hammerfell, would it. Thus you get your bogs, marshlands, heaths and moors.

This is what I was going to try to do in my region by region analysis, find out the "logical" ecosystems. By my understanding, however, the coasts of HF are ringed by some tropics in the northern areas, so I'm not really sure, we might just have to have a dozen different distinct "regions" and model a few plants for each.

[Anonymous]

http://www.jceason.dircon.co.uk/dagger/dfgprov.htm
That should get you a slight feel for it.

The northern areas are sort of tropical moors as far as I can see. Not exactly Rainforests...I really dont think they are that lush. Just really really wet places with low foliage apart from the odd mangrove/palm hybrid, judging by those pictures.

[Eyeball88]

Because the map I was going off of has too many varying ecological regions for us to realistically achieve (assuming we need to model new flora and fauna for each) I'm going to try a few attempts to "redistrict" the map after the weekend is over, cutting it into maybe 7 unique region types.

Edit: Looking at this image made me wonder if a large number of regions could be done with relative ease after all. I believe this is one of the tools included with the CS:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/codex/team_nberry_07B.htm

[CleverClothe]

You still need to make the various trees, plants and rocks though.

[Eyeball88]

You still need to make the various trees, plants and rocks though.

This is true. The biggest hurdle that I can see here, though, is Speed Tree. Retexturing Speed Tree grass shouldn't be hard, but new, animated trees may be impossible. However, it wouldn't be hard to model/texture a large assortment of plants, rocks, etc.

It would probably be wisest to just trim the number of distinct regions down by half, though.

[Sload]

Yes, there really shouldn't be all that many regions.

[Anonymous]

There seem to be a lot of subregions, so we should probably work on that principle.

[Nomadic1]

Indeed, I do think the map has too much, no matter what scale it is made in. The best way would be to work in sub-regions (if that is a word), that is the larger regions specialised locally in a geographical and ecological sense.

[salmonix]

The map so far reminds me the patch-maps of many fantasy worlds. I would suggest some geographical and environmental reasoning. The transition between 18 and 8 is not obvious for me, nor the 1-2, the lease 11-12 and 11-13. Also the wasteland 13 I find unexplained in the light of the well-watered neighbouring areas. Why 18 has no waters then? If a rocky area is expected - say a basalt base - water could still run and make small cultivable basins.
On the other hands I would deforest some seaside towns, as happened in Libanon and present day Israel region in the antiquity: the forests were cut for the wood, the errosion removed the soil. The position of the trading cities kept them important, but the landscpe was much less green.
For general it would be good to set the scale in comparison with any world map. Because then the regions could be modelled better, setting the wind-direction and possible rains.
Also it is possible, that you find moving sands in the vicinity of rivers in alluvial regions.


I wouldput Gilane a bit south-east and make a 2 port city, controlling the traffic on two waters as Corinth in Greece.

I don't know why Hegathe is cut from the benefits of fishing and what drove the people to settle there. Mines? Then where and how the products were transported?

Rihad,Roseguard and Taneth very are plausibly placed. I would spring a smaller water from Stonemoor to the main river giving a small but usable waterway. (In metres imagine a 3 metres deep, 10 metres wide river. That is enough to transport even heavy marble shafts on.)

Maybe you find my notes a bit hypercritical, but at the moment this map looks a patchwork - sharing the feature with the original Morrowind map by some measures.

Take my notes with good heart.

[Morden]

When we are placing regions we will need to think logically.

Thanks for the input guys, though keep in mind that some people tend to overthink most issues. There's a fine line between logic, and useless academic debate. Always keep in mind that we're making a game, and trying to reason your way through development of a fictional work is impossible. The extreme details of geology, atmospheric conditions, and population patterns, as accurate as they may be in our world, have no bearing or relevance upon the development of this mod.

I've spent years at TR, and sweating the little things results in a lot of talk, and no progress. If you have a great suggestion, present your ideas for a map in general gameplay and technical terms as it pertains to achieving our goals. Or even better, photoshop your changes onto the exisiting map, even if it means loading up MS Paint and doodling for us all to see.

[CleverClothe]

...even if it means loading up MS Paint and doodling for us all to see.

All hail MSPaint! Savior of the unartistic.

I look forward to Eyeball's next concept.

[Nomadic1]

The map so far reminds me the patch-maps of many fantasy worlds. I would suggest some geographical and environmental reasoning. The transition between 18 and 8 is not obvious for me, nor the 1-2, the lease 11-12 and 11-13. Also the wasteland 13 I find unexplained in the light of the well-watered neighbouring areas. Why 18 has no waters then? If a rocky area is expected - say a basalt base - water could still run and make small cultivable basins.
On the other hands I would deforest some seaside towns, as happened in Libanon and present day Israel region in the antiquity: the forests were cut for the wood, the errosion removed the soil. The position of the trading cities kept them important, but the landscpe was much less green.
For general it would be good to set the scale in comparison with any world map. Because then the regions could be modelled better, setting the wind-direction and possible rains.
Also it is possible, that you find moving sands in the vicinity of rivers in alluvial regions.


I wouldput Gilane a bit south-east and make a 2 port city, controlling the traffic on two waters as Corinth in Greece.

I don't know why Hegathe is cut from the benefits of fishing and what drove the people to settle there. Mines? Then where and how the products were transported?

Rihad,Roseguard and Taneth very are plausibly placed. I would spring a smaller water from Stonemoor to the main river giving a small but usable waterway. (In metres imagine a 3 metres deep, 10 metres wide river. That is enough to transport even heavy marble shafts on.)

Maybe you find my notes a bit hypercritical, but at the moment this map looks a patchwork - sharing the feature with the original Morrowind map by some measures.

Take my notes with good heart.

I like your ideas. Might be too academic, but I'd see what works and what doesn't. I trust the modders to transition the regions though, and would be bitterly disappointed if they didn't.

Also, Hegathe is a port city. The map only fails to show that.

[salmonix]

Not academic - i'm not a geographer. but some reasoning is not bad. these principler may help to solve details and even can give ideas to write stories of the past.
see: deforestation. you can have local stories when it was a dangerous wilderness.
on the development of a small mining city like stonemoor i offer a modell: chemtou. see: http://lexicorient.com/tunisia/chemtou.htm

it was an important but small mining city on the fringe of the empire. on the other side of the hill there was a prison camp, those guys took the blue-collar work.

[salmonix]

if my time and energy permits I make plant designs keeping in mind the 3d modelling requirements. I am short of time and experience with any 3d studio so this can be my floral contribution.