Hammerfell Necromancy (some spoilers)

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:39 pm

This will have bits added as things are corrected or clarified.

Lets start by getting the spoilers out of the way.

The Oblivion Mages guild quest revolves around necromancy. Specifically, Mannimarco, the King of Worms, has returned from godhood. At the end of Daggerfall he was one of the people to recieve the mantella (warp of the west...) and he used it to ascend to godhood. He attempted to overthrow Arkay and become the new god of life and death. Apparently he failed, and was cast back down to earth as a mortal man. In the mages guild quest, his followers and (supposedly) him attack a Mages guild, and you have to fight against the necromancers, eventually killing Mannimarco and gaining a staff which allows you to reanimate corpses.

I should probably also mention Mannimarco's history. He was a Psjiic, trained alongside Galerion, who formed the Guild of Mages. They had differences in opinion, and when Galerion defected to give magic to the world, Mannimarco did too, and formed the underground movement of necromancers. Over the years he built up a collection of magical items and become the first lich.

A lich, for those of you who dont know, is an undead creature with intelligence. Its sorta a zombie with a brain: people become liches out of choice to prolong their lives. They are encountered in Tribunal: Barilizar was one, and so were those evil thingies in robes. As I gather, they simply die but retain their (black black) soul. The body rots, but the mage retains their power.

Back to the story: eventually Galerion caught up with Mannimarco. With all his mages and lamp knights (the military force which guarded the mages guild in the early days) he tracked down the necromancer. There was a big battle in Hammerfell, and the necromancers didnt exactly come out on top. Galerion was killed, and Mannimarco was thought to be killed. He wasnt, but his artifacts (including the Necromancer's Amulet and Bloodworm Helm) were taken from him.

Around the time of Daggerfall, he was up to his old tricks. He had a good group of followers in Scourg Barrow, which is in the Dragontail Mountains. This is probably where the first battle took place too, but books arent too specific, they just say in the mountains to the north. At the time the Mages Guild still hated him, but he also had a rival in the form of the Underking. The Underking was a lich of sorts: Zurin Arctus, the old Imperial Battlemage. His soul was part of the Mantella which powered Numidium. It was taken from him, making him into the Underking, and he became undead not out of choice. The two didn't get along, as they were rivals for the Mantella. At the end of Daggerfall, all the parties who were after it got it, thanks to the Warp in the West. The Underking finally got death and Mannimarco left for Aetherius. Apparently he tried to overthrow Arkay as the God of Life and Death...Arkay was also once a man. He failed, and in Oblivion we are told he was cast back as a mortal. Then he attacks the mages guild and dies again.

Now I know pretty much all of us want a Necromancers faction. It would fit easily in Hammerfell, and is in fact a bit of a no brainer:

-We already have most of the necromancy stuff there for us: necromancers alters, new lore, the reanimation staff, black soul gems
-Scourg Barrow is there
-We know there are lots of necromancers about for them to be in Oblivion

But we must make this fit with Oblivion. Now I think it would be best if we make it so the player must be Grandmaster of the Mages Guild in Cyrodiil to start the Necromancers Path. Now, how would that fit, I hear you ask? Well there are several options.

1)You killed the real Mannimarco, but the people in charge at Scourg Barrow are glad: he threatened their power, after all with him back they would be demoted. They are impressed with your power and want you to be a necromancer.

2)You killed the real Mannimarco, and the people in charge are scared of you. They see trying to recruit you the only way to avoid destruction.

3)You killed the real Mannimarco, but they people in charge didnt think it was him, and they think you are powerful enough to join.

4)You killed an imposter: Mannimarco isnt really back, and that was just a rogue necromancer trying to scare the Mages Guild.

5) You defeated the real Mannimarco, but he survived. Its happened before, after all.

All of those are kina cop outs. None of them are really satisfying story-wise. I would suggest this:

6) Mannimarco failed to overthrow Arkay and was sent back to earth. He returned weakened and mortal. His followers took him in and set about returning him to power, but they were terrified that the Mages Guild would catch them with their pants down, swoop in and kill them all while they were busy re-lichifying Mannimarco, and with him so weakened. Thus they dispatched a decoy to try and stall the Mages. They figured that with the fake mannimarco wreaking havoc down south they wouldnt be looking for the real mannimarco...there were probably rumors he had returned, and so they wanted it to seem that he wasnt in Hammerfell. Of course they didnt reckon that you would sour the plan. None the less, Mannimarco is impressed that you could beat that decoy, and wants you to be a necromancer. They figure they have nothing to lose, as with this renewed hatred for necromancers they suppose people will be coming for them. Either that or they dont contact you at all, and you have to figure out where they are yourself.

Reasons why this would be a good idea:
-Assuming he was around 30 when he and Galerion left Artaeum, he is 1129 years old. Anyone that old would have learned patience. He would not attack with such paltry forces so soon after returning, while so weak.
-He knows how to become a lich, which has significant advantages, not least of which are being immune to a lot of attacks (fire, ice, normal weapons and disease according to the Arena manual). He would not attack before getting as much power as possible...in Lord of the Rings Sauron did not exactly leap out of Mordor as soon as he could.
-If he had a burning grudge against the mages guild he would have attacked before, when he was stronger, and not while weak.
-He has many followers and is very cunning. He would not attack with so many rather weak necromancers. He would use full forces.
-You are strong, but are you as strong as Galerion, a trained Psjiic who founded the mages guild and could make mountains tremble at his word? He was killed by Mannimarco, so what chance would the player have of killing him?

Anyway, if we assume that the player has completed the Mage Guild plot line, Mannimarco is still 'alive' in the Scourg Barrow and you only killed an imposter...here is a premilinary story line for your dissection.

--------------

You have killed Mannimarco. Super-dee-duper. You have a staff which lets you reanimate corpses, and you are grandmaster of the Mages Guild. Cyrodiil has started to cramp your style so you head out into Hammerfell.

Moving north you start to hear whispers of a place called Scourg Barrow. The Mages Guild around these parts is thinking about looking for it and clearing out the necromancers once and for all. If you poke around the libraries here you find information about it: the ancient citadel of Mannimarco, King of Worms. All you know is that it is in the Dragontail Mountains, somwhere.

A while later you are up in the mountains when you find a tower in an evil looking vale, with carrion birds all around. Upon entering a pack of zombies attack you. After defeating them a necromancer will appear and engage in conversation. He will invite you in.

The necromancer will philosophise to you. They know the Mages are coming for them, and that you, a reknowned mage yourself, can stop them looking. He will say how their craft is not wrong at all, that the laws of Arkay are false for Arkay was once a man, and men should not make such laws.

Eventually he will send you on your way. Of course you could kill them all then and there, if you feel up to it.

You must now speak to the Grandmaster of the Hammerfell Mages Guild (or if you are he, the second in command) who will be talking about seeking out Scourg Barrow. You have the options of telling him where it is and all going up there to kick ass, finding Mannimarco in the process and killing him once and for all, or saying that you found it, but the necromancers were long gone. If you choose the later, he will take your word for it.

A few days later a zombie will attack you in the street, but it will die very very easily. On its body is a note inviting you back to the Barrow, signed 'KW'. If you oblige and return, the original necromancer will lead you down through the catacombs to a chamber where a frail man sits, He will explain that he is the real Mannimarco, and that the whole Cyrodiil debacle was a decoy. He will ask you to train under him and become a great necromancer. If you accept then you are now in the Court of Necromancers (tentative name).

Your first set of missions will be based in towns and cities. You will gather supplies like food, drink, people...there should be a couple of missions where you abduct corpses. I think one where you have to woo a young girl into agreeing to give you her soul (as a chat up line sorta thing) and then literally taking her soul would be a good evil one to do.

Eventually Mannimarco will ask you to do more important things. He will send you out to find things that he needs to become a lich again. First off will be some of his artifacts. You had them in Cyrodil but they were taken. He says that they move around Tamriel at will anyway, and he can sense them in Hammerfell. Typical search and return...find the Necromancer's Amulet and Bloodworm Helm. Then he asks for ingredients...now I wont presume to make a list all on my own, but this is what I have:
"blood-tainted herbs and oils to his cave of sin,
Sweet Akaviri poison, dust from saints, sheafs of human skin,
Toadstools, roots, and much more"
So thats a start. Im guessing the dust from saints thing refers to ash or remains of flesh from buried holy men.

Finally Mannimarco will seal himself in a room for a few days and return as a lich. Now part 3 of the quests start: you do more evil deeds. This could involve recruiting naive mages to become necromancers, making treaties with Vampires and other necromancers, and rooting out the remaining worhippers of the long-dead Underking. After a long time you get the final reward: You are offered the chance to become a lich.

You must gather the same ingredients again, and this time you are the one who is sealed in the room. Again, I wont presume to make it up by myself.

Suggested effects from being a lich:
100% resistance to cold, fire and disease (from arena manual)
Immune to Common Weapons (interpretation from arena manual)
Constant slow regeneration (from arena manual again)
Slow degeneration of Personality (my own addition...you are a rotting corpse)
Constant 'Turn Undead' effect

After becoming a lich you have a few more missions to do. You must unify all the undead, finishing up those treaties you started on. Perhaps Mannimarco will ask you to become head of the Hammerfell guild of mages, so two provinces are under your thumb, though this could be more appropriate before you start rotting, as a prerequisite to lichhood. Ill leave this open for now.

Oh and heres all the lore you could probably want on Mannimarco:
[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mannimarco.shtml[/url]
-Poem of his Origins and Relationship with Galerion

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/characters/daggerfall.shtml[/url]
-Daggerfall Characters...he is under 'King of Worms'

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/arkay_enemy.shtml[/url]
-Arkay the Enemy, A Book by the King of Worms

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/tsod/ending_kow.shtml[/url]
-What happens to the King of Worms at the end of Daggerfall

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/tsod/underking.shtml[/url]
-The Daggerfall Storyline, conveniently where the King of Worms enters

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/realms_iliac/[/url]
-Info on Daggerfall Realms...just scroll down to Scourg Barrow

[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b005_arkay.shtml[/url]
-How Arkay became God of Life and Death in the first place.

Theres more out there but that should be enough for now, eh?

EDIT: I dont know what the scripting possibilities for alterations in appearance are but I think it would be nifty to have something where the player decomposes over a period of a few in-game weeks.

Week 1: paler skin, eyes turn cloudy
Week 2: grey skin, personality takes a sharp drop (you stink!)
Week 3: Black skin, loud buzzing wherever you go, almost 0 personality
Week 4: Yellow/brown, nearly dry flesh. No personality, you are pretty much a walking skeleton by this time.
Week 5: Yellow, dry skin left.

At this point the player could be 'cremated' to leave a bare skeleton. We could just have that done right off the bat, but if possible I think a transition would be really fun to watch. I dont even know if changing to a skeleton is an option, though. We could get around the whole clothing issue by saying the player has to wear a special robe, like those liches in Tribunal. Sure that would limit the player, but we would make it clear that becoming a lich is a big big step into the dark, and this is a sacrifice.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:05 pm

Jale I... Wow. WOW. No objections, your a genius. (And a well thought-out one at that.)

Edit: You know, this would make an unbelievably killer quest, but you are inventing alot of lore there

.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:36 pm

Oh no, no invention so far. The only speculation is that Mannimarco is alive and not re-lichified. They say he has returned, and I dont buy into it that he would act that way and go down so easily. So thats conjecture. The only artistic license would be the process of becoming a lich, which I wont take lightly and I will try to get the most information on, as well as getting everyone to agree.

Even the effects of being a lich are in lore, or logic. The immunity to cold, disease, fire and normal weapons is listed in the Arena manual. The Turn Undead thing is a nobrainer...you are undead. The decrease in personality is also pretty obvious...you are a freaking corpse. The degeneration thing is based on normal decomposition, though nicely fit to weeks for easy reading.

The only thing I have really left out are vampires. I dont think you should be able to become a lich if you are a vampire...you are already the undead anyway. I think there should be a few quests for vamps, and people who wuss out of becoming a lich. If you do become a lich, of course it would be more fun...really nasty and insidious quests.

If you have any problems with the lore, just fire away. I can probably justify it, or change the plan based on problems that arise.

Heck thats what the thread is for.

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:01 pm

Very nice to see that someone else speculates that Mannimarco couldn't just be killed by some green "Champion of Cyrodiil." I really like the idea, but I have a couple of small objections:

-The Artifacts
Yes, they are necromancy artificts, but I see them as being removed from the game so that the player won't have all the "uber" stuff, and to help the items make their way to the next game. Remember too, they are "hidden in the tower". The solution to this is simply making up our own artifacts, which won't be hard.

-The Lich Powers
They are realistic. However, this is going to have to be something that is extremely difficult to obtain, especially given the powers that you get.

-Offered to become a lich
I don't know exactly how liches come to be, I know you have to be dead. This is not so much of an objection then as a comment. Have you played through the Benirus Manor quest, where you help raise a lich?

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:22 pm

I remember a quest from the dark brotherhood where you have to kill a lich. It gives alot of information on how to become a lich (this man is in the process of becomming one). All I can remember that it had something to do with binding your soul to an object in order to dismiss it or something like that(your soul that is). I'll look into it further. ( I think my assisin still holds the necros diary).

EDIT: the name of the book is "The Path of Transcendance (sp?)"

The path of transcendance:

Entry 1: My initial findings may have been inconclusive, but they set me on the path I will pursue until I achieve my goal or lie rotting in this cave. Either outcome will be a welcome respite from the days and nights I've spent toiling without food, water, or any kind of companionship. A lesser mage would have fallen prey to madness by now, I'm sure of it. But I am not a lesser mage! Though they try in earnest, though their hearts and minds are true to the teachings of our great Sovereign, my fellow Necromancers lack the complete dedication required to achieve that ultimate of goals -- the state of lichdom. Not even Falcar himself can match my sheer tenacity, my unwillingness to accept failure on any level. That is why I, Celedaen, will soon join the ranks of the Worm Eremites, those servants favored by our sovereign above all others. I will sit with honor and obedience at his right hand while those fools in the Mages Guild grovel at my maggot-ridden feet!

Entry 2: Even the most pedestrian peasant fairy tale has long held that a lich must somehow remain bound to his soul, and that connection most commonly manifests itself as a transference of the spirit into an actual physical object. An urn, a sarcophagus, a crystal phial.... One Khajiit fairy tale even tells of a lich who preserved his spirit in the severed head of a Wood Elf infant! And these same peasants long comforted themselves with the belief that if they ever had the grave misfortune of facing a lich, they would need only find the vessel containing his spirit form and then destroy it, thus destroying the lich himself. Fools and their folklore! True liches possess no such weakness! Can one of the Sovereign's Worm Eremites be bested by shattering a glass vase? The very notion is so absurd as to be comical. Yes, a Necromancer must transfer his soul into a physical vessel, but once that transference is complete, once the Necromancer has fully metamorphosed into his lich form, the vessel is inconsequential. But it's the process of this transference itself that has eluded me for so long. My soul remains bound to my earthly body, and nothing I have attempted has allowed me to free myself of this mortal coil and transcend to the state of lichdom I so dearly desire.

Entry 3: Every tome I've acquired, the volumes upon volumes of Necromantic discourse, all useless! I have grown disgusted by the years of wasted life that have been poured into these so-called "essential" writings. Who in their right mind would ever wish to animate a month-dead Cyrodilic butterfly, or bring life to the rotting husk of a rare albino mud crab? How many months have I wasted away in this cave? And for what reason? Ah, yes, I know! I will resurrect an army of deformed goblin younglings and march on the White-Gold Tower itself! That at least is in my reach! My mind has become a cesspool of Necromantic waste, where reject spells and rituals compete for the honor of finally driving me completely insane. And still I am no closer to achieving my goal than I was when I first began this process. Am I losing faith in myself, in my discipline? Perhaps I have been studying too hard. Many a night I have sacrificed my prayers to our Sovereign for one more experiment, one more incantation. What I need now is rest. Rest, and a state of tranquility, so that I may commune with our Sovereign and re-pledge my loyalty and devotion. For what answer will I find in some crumbling codex that could not be supplied by our great Sovereign himself?

Entry 4: The secret is mine! So long I searched, so hard I toiled, but I was a fool! I was right to forgo my studies for a more ardent devotion to prayer. Last night, as I sit in the throes of meditation, our great Sovereign did come to me! He passed to me the knowledge I have sought for so long! The secrets of transcendence were even more complex and arcane than even I could have imagined, and I will never transcribe them into any written work. Indeed, they have never been recorded! All my months of solitude were for naught, as the secret I so desperately sought could only be obtained through direct communication with out great Sovereign himself. Soon I will walk the earth as a Worm Eremite, serving the Sovereign in a state of endless undeath!

Entry 5: Through the sacrifice of many innocents, the resurrection of many servants to aid me in my tasks, and the tireless performance of a nearly week-long ritual, I have completed construction of the Sands Of Resolve. The transcendence to full lichdom will not be immediate, however. The vessel has been crafted, but my energy force, my soul, must be fully transferred into it. Not even our Sovereign was quite certain how long this process would take, at it varies from one Necromancer to the next, based on many factors both physical and spiritual. One thing, however, is certain. This hourglass must never leave my possession until the transference is complete! I grow more powerful every day, but in truth am more vulnerable than I've ever been. If something were to happen to the Sands of Resolve, if the hourglass should somehow leave my person, the connection between soul and vessel would be severed. To think that my work, my life, could be eradicated so easily after I've come so close to success is almost more than I can bear.

Indeed ingame he was quite weak, all you had to do is pickpocket these sands of resolve and he will die. These sands were literally and hourglass in game.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:25 pm

I really like this idea, although I feel that I need to share some dialogue with you. Trayvond the Redguard, a Mage in the Cheydinhall Mage's Guild, has this as one of this greetings:

I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild.
We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked.
My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education.
I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion.
Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra.

This would have some slight effects on your idea. It would seem, that since mages are not well-liked by the Redguards, that the Mage's Guilds would be scarse, and mostly under-staffed. There could be some guildhalls where a scant few mages would hang out, mostly alchemists wanting to make use of the local Hammerfell flora, but I don't see them as being powerful enough to attack Scourge Barrow.
Perhaps this could be where the player comes in, however. The Mage's Guild could use the player as their strongarm to attack Scourge Barrow.
Basically, you would just need to re-write this in a way that would reflect the fact that magic is not well-liked in Hammerfell, and that the Fighter's Guild is more likely to go after the Scourge Barrow. This would make sense, since the Redguards are the most naturally talented warriors in all of Tamriel.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:09 pm

If magick isn't well liked, what's the chance there will be enough necromancers in Hammerfell to form a guild? I say to save it for High Rock.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Thanks for your interest and help, guys!

That path of transcendance thing is really useful. Im guessing 'Our Sovereign' is the Worm King himself. The whole transference is really interesting too. I wonder what the purpose of all the things Mannimarco collected were then...perhaps they aer instrumental to the transference, or another part of the ritual altogether.

In the way of artifacts...I was only relaly getting at the amulet and the helm. We could put a couple more in...I think he also had a robe (robe of the lich) and that staff you get at the end of the Mage Guild line.

I havent played a quest where I raise one im afraid. The powers arent too mighty, and I think the drawback of having everyone run from you (you are, after all, a corpse) would balance the benefits. There should be few people who talk to you after ascension (or descension if you want to look at it that way).

So I guess its more of a general tipping-off of the authorities rather than the Mages Guild. Unless the mages guild are at the head of the whole movement towards the barrow...its been there for centuries, so I would assume that all the people around there are too scared to try and attack. If the mages back down I bet the others would too.

EDIT: Umm Sload...SCOURG BARROW IS IN HAMMERFELL...

Its not really something we can 'save for high rock' unless you feel like moving the dragontail mountains.

And its sorta the point where necromancers from all over gather, not just Hammerfell.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:21 pm

By the way Jale, I would very much like to help you with the quest line if it gets accepted. I played all main questlines in OB and there is indeed a high focus on necromancy in OB. I hope I can be of help.

Also, This book states that there is also a complicated and long ritual. Just creating the "sands of resolve" took him a week and he is still not done.

Most of this ritual is unknown (as he states its never been writen down) and we will have to create at least some new lore.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:36 pm

Yes I'm not about to take this on myself

I think it would be wise to make this a very drawn out questline. The whole point about becoming a lich is that you have all the time in the world. It will be pretty much a hardcore evil mages guild. Hardcore like the Reavers in Firefly are hardcore (ive been watching too much of that).

I dont think the sands of resolve are strictly necessary, just an object. Its probably something that has to be important to their beiefs, or somethign that just sorta comes to them. He seems worried about time so maybe the hourglass was appropriate. I dont really want to know what was on the mind of someone who stores their soul in the head of a small child, but there you go.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:44 pm

The line between Hammerfell and High Rock changes often. The Dragontail Mountains are partially in both.

That said, I was not refering to Scourge Barrow, which can exist with necromancers and all without a faction with quests. I was refering a necromancer faction in general.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:52 pm

I'd say that ignoring pretty much all the lore which places the citadel of necromancy, and the main antagonist of the Mages Guild line in Hammerfell (yes Hammerfell...it is South of the lands of Sentinel which Im guessing wouldnt have been given to High Rock any time soon), as well as all the scripting already there from necromancy in Oblivion would be a bad idea.

Plus I think its a perfect place to have a necromancer faction...the cradel of the craft itself. Necromancy was the discovery of Mannimarco, as far as we know (him and the sload of course). Also, its pretty perfect in the respect that the people around him are deathly afraid of mages. Sure he isnt going to be able to do much recruiting, but they will leave him alone and probably not even see him coming. Heck id say he was the reason they are scared (along with the whole 'magic is for sissies' mentality), if they think wizards steal souls. With necromancers in your back yard you would probably have a pretty poor view of the arcane community in general.

Ya know the sload worshipped him when he ascended

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:17 pm

A necromancy faction will also contrast nicely with the Arkay-worshipping Redguards, as it is very black/white.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:43 pm

I said this in another thread. Let's leave Mannimarco as dead, or at the least completely absent. It's safe and there's no stepping on toes this way.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:49 pm

I know its a bit sensationalist, but the whole Mannimarco going down like that...it really just doesnt sit right with me. Ive made my case for this. Evil immortal people bide their time and gather their forces. They dont make wild risky movements for no reason. Besides that, I dont think the player would be able to defeat him. The battle which last saw his end featured trembling mountains, waves of ice and walls of fire. And he STILL made it out alive (ish). And Galerion, a ridiculously powerful mage who founded the whole mages guild and was guarded by many many skilled people, not to mention that he was '
Armored with magicka, armed with ensorcelled sword and axe,'...he died. It just doesn't add up.

EDIT: I added another possibility: That you defeated Mannimarco but hes alive. He took a dive to get out of there but wants you to join.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:01 am

I haven't finished the Mage's Guild quest yet, so I won't comment on whether or not we leave Mannimarco alive (because I really have no clue what you all are talking about), but I will comment on the necromancer faction. I feel that one could possibly exist, and Hammerfell would actually be the perfect place for them. Since the Mage's Guild would most likely have a minimal presence there, they would expierence the least effects of the ban on necromancy. Sure, they would have to worry about supercool Redguard warriors hacking them to bits if they got caught digging up corpses, but they probably enjoy a degree of privacy up in the mountains.
However, I do NOT think this should be a joinable faction. Perhaps it could function like the Blackwood Company in Oblivion. The NPCs would say that they are members of the faction, and the PC could even do quests for them, but it wouldn't show up on their faction list.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:07 am

Im quite happy with the idea that it is a faction that isnt on your list, but I would like to keep it as is in terms of content. I doubt they would have a roster anyway, so I dont think it should be on any list, and the whole ranking system always bugs me. Making up erroneous names for ranks has never been fun, and as far as im concerned in this the ranks would be the living, the undead, and the wormking.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:11 am

I've found some more information on lichdom. It seems there are also some ritualistic symbols involve. I like to call them magic circles. They are described in this tome:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3900/tome3xk.jpg

And seen here:

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/6263/altar7lw.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6772/symbol1be.jpg

Concerning Mannimarco, I think he still lives. The Mannimarco in oblivion, whether fake or real, wasn't as powerful and scary as I wouldve expected of him. He looked like a plain altmer, and acted all high like one too. It was not at all as i'd imagine one of the most powerfull necromancers in history.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:30 am

I wonder if that blood is there for decoration or by accident...

Good find.

Ive been giving thought to the barrow itself too. I think it would be a sprawling mess of catacombs, like those under a cathedral. Above ground there should just be an entrance, but the underground would be more interesting. Around the enterance would be the shared areas, which would of course be the original chambers: Things like the library. Leading off in all directions should be twisty corridors which borrow around like...well...a burrow. Leading off these would be the private quarters of necromancers, dug out by their personal servants (deceased) during their training. Each one would probably have sleeping quarters, research facilities and for those who are undead, a crypt. Many should be abandoned (they have moved, been rejected, defected or simply died) and many more should be sealed (sleeping in crypts). In the furthest depths would be Mannimarco's private halls.

Other possible facilities:
-A Summoning room
-A Public Necromancy Chamber
-A 'Cattle Farm'...live slaves ready for experimentation
-A crypt for those who didnt bother to put one in their own chamber
-A Dreaming Room (ie for travels to Oblivion)...this is getting into the really unlikely, but Manimarco is a Psijic, and N'Gasta could make gates to Oblivion
-A pit for undead who are not currently needed

Oh and this book helps with a bit of Necromancer Culture background:
[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml[/url]

Useful points:
"There are even rumors that King Gothryd of Daggerfall may institute the Imperial practice of donating the corpses of criminals for Necromantic study as a deterrent to the bandits and pirates that still threaten the Iliac Bay."
-Possible quests, and sources of corpses

"While the magic involved in raising a skeleton will assemble the bones in the proper order, skeletons may be strengthened considerably by the addition of support on their joints. The most common are leather straps that bind the bones together more tightly. Some practitioners also drive metal spikes are between the joints, which is more expensive and time consuming, but they protect the servant where it is weakest."
-Maybe something a bit more interesting than our average bonies?

"The newly formed Orsinium presents a unique opportunity. As you know, Orc corpses are among the most sought after for the durability of their skin and the strength of their bones. If King Gortwog will listen to reason, we could offer the services of our Art in defense of his young nation in exchange for disposing of the Orcish dead. A mutually beneficial arrangement as I'm sure the Orcs will agree. To this end, a delegation has been sent to Orsinium, though we have not yet heard any word on the state of these negotiations."
-I smell a quest! Assuming we make Orsinium this time round, that is. Also would suggest that there would be Orcish zombies around.

"the proper rituals will imbue the mummified corpse with the strength to move itself. Most importantly, you will have a much stronger servant who will follow your commands with more independence and understanding."
-Ahhh a bit of flavour to the rotting flesh. Mummification looks pretty fun

"The ravenous mudcrabs of Morrowind can strip a corpse down to its bones in a matter of days. Lesser crabs in other provinces can do the same in a matter of weeks."
-Pet Crabs? There should be facilities for removal of flesh, at least

"In Hammerfell, where worship of Arkay is strongest, the dead are almost always subject to Arkay's Law. There are exceptions after large battles or in remote areas where death occurs far from meddlesome priests. Fortunately, the dangerous terrain and creatures in the deserts and mountains of Hammerfell makes the acquisition of corpses possible, though they are often in poor condition and require special care in preparation."
-Ahh scavenging. This could lead to a very early quest, sorta a first practice.

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:40 am

I agree with dexter almost completely; hammerfell is PERFECT for necromancers - corpses abound and plenty of spots to hide. However, I do think the necromancers should be joinable; as a replacement for the Mages Guild which would be mostly nonexistent (probably just one or two guildhalls in the whole province). I always imagined hammerfell would be a haven for more of the "evil" guilds, especially the thieves guild.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:04 am

sirwootalot123 wrote:I agree with dexter almost completely; hammerfell is PERFECT for necromancers - corpses abound and plenty of spots to hide. However, I do think the necromancers should be joinable; as a replacement for the Mages Guild which would be mostly nonexistent (probably just one or two guildhalls in the whole province). I always imagined hammerfell would be a haven for more of the "evil" guilds, especially the thieves guild.

There would be a Mages Guild in every major city IMO. We know there is one in Stros M'Kai (which BTW doesn't have a FG or TG), Sentinel, and Dragonstar. We can guess that there would be one in every Forebear city (Rihad, Gilane, Taneth) given Imperial connections. And there would be one in Hegathe and Elinhir just by need alone. But I think the MGs would be run by non-Redguards, with Elves prominent in the Crown guildhalls and Men in the Forebear ones. But IMO there should not be a Mages Guild in any other city.

Anyway, on topic. I don't the Necromancers should be joinable (although doing quests for them is a must), and I stand by my previous comment that Mannimarco should be left out entirely, although there should be a lot of reference to him. In short, it seems I agree with Dexter entirely, except the Mannimarco part where he is sitting on the fence for the time being.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:28 am

I think the mages guild should be there, but it should have about as much support as the Wolverine Hall one in Morrowind did: pretty much none.

I also think this is something Bethesda would do if they had the time. In Daggerfall you had the option of siding with two different evil undead. In addition you could run off with witches and spend your time summoning daedra. In Morrowind necromancy was unfeasable due to the Dunmer, and in Oblivion...well there are lots of problems with Oblivion. They probably didn't want to skew the ESRB rating over one faction by letting people cut up dead guys.

I also stand by my claims about Mannimarco. I haven't played it yet, but ask Amrod about when you face him. Read all the stuff about him, how powerful he is, and then see how easy he is to kill. Its just not right. Every really powerful, legendary person killed in Morrowind had a reason for their weakness: Vivec was weakened by Dagoth Ur's possession of the Heart; Dagoth Ur was toying with you and was also weakened by the removal of his followers; Almalexia was mad, weakened by lack of access to the heart, and faced by the dunmer savior incarnate, armed with a mythical godkilling blade...

I don't think he is dead, any more than I thought the Tribunal were kosher from the moment I heard of them.

I would very much appreciate it if everyone who has quibbles would list their concerns/lore problems/quest problems/personal problems so I can address them. And by address them, I dont mean just ignore them. I will take even the n00biest opinion into account if its well founded (I see it as every TR Modder's duty to do so). I will explain any lore points I mgiht have not cited here, change any elements which are real sticking points and console any worries.

But I want this faction in

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:11 pm

Some practitioners also drive metal spikes are between the joints,

Sounds like the bonewalkers in MW but without flesh.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:38 pm

I agree, The mages guild should have little or no redguard suppport, and should be made up of mostly "Outlanders". I also agree that the necromancers should be joinable, and that Mannimarco should be re-lichified, but I dissagree that you should become a lich. I think in my opinion it's going a bit far. Though, now that I think of it, you can perform the ritual, and only become a lich after you've died, correct? Which means that if you died, perhaps it wouldn't be "Game over", but you would be resurected as a lich? That's some tough scripting.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:19 pm

I think it's doable. Like the vivec drown-yourself mission the trigger is player health at 0.

But I agree- it's a little too exteme.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:25 pm

I don't agree with Morgoth on the ritual. Earlier information learns that in order to become a lich you have to transfer your soul into an object. Once you have fully done so you will sort of die, and yet you remain linked to your soul somehow. (however the soul leaves the vessel you put it in I assume, because you cannot kill a lich by destroying this vessel) While normally when you die, the link between your body and soul is completly lost. where the soul goes, I have no clue, but the body remains on nirn as a piece of meat, ready to be used by necromancers

.

Basicly it comes down to this.

Alive: Soul inside body.
Lich: Soul leaves body, but somehow stays connected.
Dead: The Soul leaves the body.

Also an interesting thing to know is that there are actually soul gems (black soul gems) that can hold the souls of men,mer and beastfolk. These were most likely in the game Redguard, and also seen in oblivion.

I don't exactly know what happens to a soul if someone dies. but if it is captured it acts like normal soul gems, only FAR FAR more powerfull.

More interesting books/notes:

Necromancer's Moon

Brothers and Sisters of the Worm!

Despair not at the trials we now face, for our time comes swiftly.

The God of Worms watches over our Order, and will deliver us from these troubled times on the Day of Reckoning. Until then, perform His works in secret, serve His needs, and look to the skies for His signs.

The Revenant, the Necromancer's Moon, watches over us all. His Form, ascended to Godhood, has taken its rightful place in the sky, and hides the enemy Arkay from us so that we may serve Him. Watch for the signs: when the heavenly light descends from above, hasten to His altars and make your offering, so that He may bless you with but a taste of His true power. Grand Soul Gems offered to Him will be darkened, and can be used to trap the souls of the unwitting; a feat even the great N'Gasta would marvel at.

Stay faithful to the Order of the Black Worm, and in time your loyalty will be rewarded. Soon, He will return to set the world right in due time, and those who would stand in his way will suffer enternally at his hands, just as those who stood opposed before.

Until that day, you must believe and be patient. Hide in your caves, in your ruined forts, in your secret lairs. Raise your minions, summon your servants, cast your spells. Answer the call of the Order when you are needed. Watch and listen.[/b]

A note written by falcar, a traitor to the mages guild and now a necromancer. It reveals locations of several altars, though I only know where The Dark fissure is, which is were you have to go for the Mages guild quest.

Hastily scrawled note

Primary sites:

The Dark Fissure
Fort Istirius
Fort Linchal
Wendelbek

Altars have been raised; Anchorites have been called. Watch the skies; once a week His Grace shines down on us.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:15 pm

As I understand it, a lich is simply a zombie with a soul. Basically it seems to happen when people like our dear friend Mannimarco trap their soul in a special object, die (with a lot more rituals of course) and then the soul is transferred back to the corpse.

I don't really think it is going too far...the only real benefit of it is that you are immortal, and since our characters don't age its a bit of a non-issue. There are benefits like you are immune to a lot, and the undead won't attack you, but apart from that you have big drawbacks in that you are outcast.

Ive been thinking that when it does come around to the lichification it would be a very long process...and in game month, to be exact. After preparations, the player would be sealed up in a ritual chamber for a month with no food, just water for a fortnight. Of course this wouldnt actually be too bad for the player, but if he chickens out, after the month Mannimarco would come in and whoop his ass. The ritual would be a bit shady, but again like that Vivec thing where you drown yourself. I think it would work best as a potion anyway...in the poem 'Mannimarco, King of Worms' many nasty things are mentioned, one of them being 'Sweet Akaviri Poison'. I reckon that the body must have to die in a certain way to support the soul's return. Whether this is slow or instant, I don't know.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:29 pm

2 possibly n00bish questions:

1: does that mean the Lichification would be permanent?

2: (more of an idea) Perhaps Mannimarco had gone through the neccesary rituals for lichification befor eyou fought him, and by killing him you just completed the process? (just a thought)

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:33 pm

This is good. Real good.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:41 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:2 possibly n00bish questions:

1: does that mean the Lichification would be permanent?

2: (more of an idea) Perhaps Mannimarco had gone through the neccesary rituals for lichification befor eyou fought him, and by killing him you just completed the process? (just a thought)

1: Yes, Lichdom is permanent. I don't image there being a cure for it like vampirism. (vampirism is a disease, lichdom is not).

2: That is a possibility, but I still think death is a part of the ritual to become a lich.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:46 pm

the player would be sealed up in a ritual chamber for a month with no food, just water for a fortnight. Of course this wouldnt actually be too bad for the player

Do you mean the month would automaticly skip by? Becase being trapped in a deprivation chamber and having to "rest 24 hours" some 30 times would suck donkey!

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:24 pm

Something as major as lichdom (with its personality murdering) should be able to be removed somehow. I don't think Bethsoft would ever make something like this Truely permanent. This would put all other quests on hold (or at least the disposition requiering ones)

To recover from Lichdom would requier and enourmous effort that could involve praying to all of the gods for forgiveness, with associated quests. (once again just a though, because this really should have a way to be reversed)

@amrod: You kill him, that is how death is involved.

PS: I LOVE this idea, as you can tell by my giddy joy at the mention of a necromancing spell in the pre-oblivion discussion thread, I really want to practice necromancy (I forgot the name and don't have time to look it up)

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:14 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Something as major as lichdom (with its personality murdering) should be able to be removed somehow. I don't think Bethsoft would ever make something like this Truely permanent. This would put all other quests on hold (or at least the disposition requiering ones)

Becoming a lich is not an easy choice, few necromancers achieve this goal. Basicly you kill yourself, and your body starts rotting. You cannot undo becoming a lich. The gods, and then I suppose you mean the nine divines, rarely meddle in the affairs of mortals, or even in this case, other immortals.

You kill him, that is how death is involved.

I stand by my point. To become a lich the condition of your death must be very specific. Normal death does not make you a lich. In oblivion part of the process is described as placing your soul in an object, once completed this basicly kill's your body, you will become a zombie. What happens further is not described, but the body must somehow maintain its connection with the soul. Jale and I talked about this, and agreed the most logical way was for the soul to somehow re-enter the body (hence all the rituals).
Once your immortal, undead body and your soul are reunited you have become a lich. This is my point of view and I will not change it unless you have suffient evidence to support this theory.

Don't take me wrong, it is a very good explaination, but with all the things i've read about necromancy I just dont think its the rigth explanation.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:31 pm

I'm not saying it the normal death would lead to lichdom, but that he had done all of the neccesary requierments before you attacked him. He could have stashed his soul in some "well hidden" (not in the game) location

Yes I meant the nine divines, but perhaps the Daedric gods would be better for this sort of thing, they do meddle periodicly (mace of everscamp, plus all of the actual shrine quests) I know something like this is a major decision that normally couldn't be undone, but nothing on this scale is ever permanent in this series.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:43 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:I'm not saying it the normal death would lead to lichdom, but that he had done all of the neccesary requierments before you attacked him. He could have stashed his soul in some "well hidden" (not in the game) location

Yes I meant the nine divines, but perhaps the Daedric gods would be better for this sort of thing, they do meddle periodicly (mace of everscamp, plus all of the actual shrine quests) I know something like this is a major decision that normally couldn't be undone, but nothing on this scale is ever permanent in this series.

I will not change my views on the lich part.

However perhaps it should be curable just for those morons that think it would be cool to become a lich and then change their minds later. The quest should be really hard, and after you cure it all the necromancer will attempt to hunt you down or something.

I do still prefer it to be uncurable, just seeing it is near inpossible to cure of it. You would basicly have to find a new body, soulless, which is not decomposing. Then transfer your soul into that body somehow. Seems like more trouble then being a lich and it seems very hard to acomlish that goal, even if you manage to get the help of a deadra prince. Also there is no lore on curing lichdom, only on becomming one. where a vampire has lore on both.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:57 pm

Make the cure mean getting a new body. Just to piss off a load of power-gamers, your new body would be at level one.... /jk

Seriously, I don't think there should be any cure at all for lichedom. I mean it's a complete destruction of your body and probably irreversibly changes your soul. Just make clear how irreversible the change is.

Regarding Daedra worship, that would probably be reserved for Hammerfell's witch cults.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:03 pm

Ludovic wrote:Make the cure mean getting a new body. Just to piss off a load of power-gamers, your new body would be at level one.... /jk

Seriously, I don't think there should be any cure at all for lichedom. I mean it's a complete destruction of your body and probably irreversibly changes your soul. Just make clear how irreversible the change is.

Regarding Daedra worship, that would probably be reserved for Hammerfell's witch cults.

Exactly my point. but if there were to be a cure, That would be my proposal for it. Lichdom destroys your body, and no one can create a new body for you. If even there was someone who could, why would they help you?? In the ingame dialoge it will of course be made clear that the changes are irreversible.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:41 am

would it be possible to be a lich in someone else's body then transfer yourself back? (lich sabotage, put your soul in their dead body and cast a high level frost spell on your own for preservation)

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:22 am

One way to see if Mannimarco is dead, or at the least pouting like a 2-year old, is to see if his star thingy shows up on the day of the week, or if you can make Black Soul Gems. If you can, he can be treated as active or at least remaining.

I just read an interesting theory on Mannimarco, and how he could be killed so easily (barring Oblivion's level scaling).

In the Warp of the West, 1/7 of him was ascended to godhood. However 6/7 of him was not. Maybe the Mannimarco the PC kills is the remaining mortal 6/7?

Of course if that theory turns out to be true, it does raise the question of how strong Mannimarco remains and if he has the power to interfere anymore. The power of the mantella has been fizzling ever since the Warp of the West, and one could question if Mannimarco lost 6/7s of his effective power.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:36 am

It is best not to read into things, but assume that Mannimarco is dead because the player kills him.