Forests in TR

D-Ice · Post by **D-Ice** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:19 pm

I have just downloaded Tamrirl Rebuilt map1 and i had the same dissapointment as I had when I first played morrowind -----> there are no dense forests. Will the future realeases of the other maps have dense forests

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:32 pm

There are no dense forests anywhere in 3D games, for a simple reason. Each tree is a lot of polygons, and the computer just asphixiate then spontaneously combust before turning into a plague-carrying three-headed toad whenever a game features more than twelve trees on a screen.

Oblivion cheats by using the "Speedtree" technology, which simply consists of replacing 3D trees by 2D "cardboard trees" after a certain distance. And even then, Oblivion's forests are anything but dense.

Try old 2D adventure games, such as Secret of Monkey Island, if you want dense forests in computer games.

kthxbye.

PS: Go read the "error report" about places in the map1 beta such as Orelu Plantation. A small but dense wickwheat field causes computer to stutter, sputter, and die. Imagine with a large forest, knowing tree models are much more complex and detailed than crop models...

Wishing for a mod to bring dense forests to Morrowind is like wishing for that mod to cure cancer, bring about world peace, and cook you a sandwich.
Not.
Gonna.
Happen.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:37 pm

And against lore. That area is roughly analogous to any barren, windswepped peninsula: not right for foresty growth.

Larethel · Post by **Larethel** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:50 am

Honestly, creating dense forests within Morrowind isn't as impossible as most people think it is. True, it is difficult to create one that doesn't lag out an average computer, but it still can be done. I'd like to think I got close with my last mod; it's all in the size ratio with the individual trees and plants. You have the standard rocks, grasses and bushes on a lower level, which you can imitate with different plant models scaled up in size (or smaller trees scaled down and lowered partially below the ground). You have the larger trees which act as the canopy of the forest, and the smaller ones which bridge the gap between the small and large objects in the forests. Hard to describe in words, but not absolutely impossible to do once you sit down and mess with it for a while.

The wickwheat field thing, I think, is a bad representation of what a computer can and can't handle. With Morrowind's engine, I've noticed, plants that act as containers lag the system much more than the polygon count of a semi-dense forest. Guess it all depends on your definition of "dense".

There's no refuting the fact, however, that map 1 having dense forests goes against Tamrielic lore, which is most likely the main reason why they're not there.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:31 am

Each tree is a lot of polygons

Actually, trees in Morrowind are pretty low poly. It's the alpha maps that have to be rendered and this slows down the FSP. Sometimes is better to have 100 leafes of 200 poly each rather than 2 poly alpha bended. There is a way to do this though. Make our own trees with our own low-res textures and that will incarse the performance. But ince Morrowind OoT is closed there is no chance having these.

But hey it's a good idea. We can do this unless we use alpha bended plants. I think plants like Hackle-Lo will work and will not slow you down if there are many of them put together. Hmm...just an idea. It always annoyed me that morrowind has very few flora even grass is missing. (I'm not putting texture patterns as grass.) This would be nice and not impossibile.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:43 am

horodnicdragos wrote:Actually, trees in Morrowind are pretty low poly.

Still too many if you have to put three thousands of them in a cell.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:48 am

Indeed. Morrowind's cells are larger than Oblivion's.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:35 am

horodnicdragos wrote:
Actually, trees in Morrowind are pretty low poly.

Still too many if you have to put three thousands of them in a cell.

I agree, but not each tree does. And it also depends of the distance view.

I use it at 50%.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:44 am

Gez wrote:Oblivion cheats by using the "Speedtree" technology, which simply consists of replacing 3D trees by 2D "cardboard trees" after a certain distance. And even then, Oblivion's forests are anything but dense.

I know this suggestion may sound a little "anti-elderscrolls-go-anywhere-you-want-ish" But how about to give the illusion of a deep dense forest we made an interior foresty place - "3D on tracks" like the crash bandicoot levels...i know, comparing morrowind to crash bandicoot is a crime...but for the sake of trying to create the feel of forging your way through a forest (especially at night - lit by handheld torch), It could be worth it to satisfy that urge so many of us get...not sure what the exterior would look like though...
Unless there was a teleport in and out thing going on - like a sidetrip-quest-thing to part of the Black Marsh on an assignment...

???

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:29 pm

Got some sceenies? btw there's a claim for a pocket universe that is being discussed....

Larethel · Post by **Larethel** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:19 pm

If someone wants to tell me how to compress a ton of meshes and textures into a .bsa file I'd be happy to upload my attempt at forestry.

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:22 pm

try BSAcommander. just google it. or failing that

get it here

Larethel · Post by **Larethel** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:22 pm

BSAcommander seems to be functional for Oblivion only. Any idea of what was used to create the .bsa file for map 1?

Andres Indoril · Post by **Andres Indoril** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:26 pm

BSA Browser is what you need, it unpacks, packs and browses MW BSA's. I have no helpful hints for finding it though.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:09 pm

LinkyWinky!

http://www.morrowind-oblivion.com/utilities.php

EdAptra · Post by **EdAptra** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:21 pm

what was the poly count like for the hiirstang forest in bloodmoon?

Larethel · Post by **Larethel** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:02 pm

Thanks, I've got the .bsa and .esp ready. Does anyone mind if I upload the 12 meg rar file directly to the TR site as an attatchment?

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:16 pm

If you do, put it in your showcase.

Larethel · Post by **Larethel** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:39 pm

It's uploaded over in my showcase, if anyone wants to try it out.