Poor people, do they exist?

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:21 pm

I made a quick concept of a Rihad lower class house and to my suprise I was told that it had been decided that there was no Low Class in Rihad... bullsh*t!

Every city has poor people, especialy a wealthy city like Rihad. Rich cities attract poor people with a dream of jobs & wealth, but sometimes it does not go that well and honest people have to turn to thievery and begging, thats a fact.

Now since I dont know the background to why there is no lower class in Rihad. Here is some input.

*Rihad uses a sort of greencard system, to get a greencard you have to have a job, a clean criminal record etc. Without a greencard you are not allowed to live in Rihad, except for taverns. But since poor people can't afford that it solves it self.

*There is houses and tents outside the city gates for LC people. A better Waterfront.

*or... the lowlife of Rihad live in the sewers, and have their own small village down there. With workshops, small shacks and so on.

Please, if you have a good reason (or bad) why there should be no lower class in Rihad, do tell me.

And if you like my ideas, or have some of your own about the poor people in Rihad post them.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:36 pm

There should be poor folk in Rihad, but it isn't exactly a capitalist society. Politicall its based around warrior hierarchy. Taneth, on the other hand, emulates Imperial classism.

I see the Goldmoor set having Projects.

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:58 pm

I for one am for lower class areas...but then that is just my prefrence. I find it hard to believe that a wealthy port city would some how eradicate their poor.....unless of course we made a cool plot line out of it where poor families are being killed and thrown in to the river as the Warrior heirarchy thinks their "trash". And the PC has to stand up for them!

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:25 pm

I am not for the killing part but like the throwing into the river part.

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:37 pm

well, i think the warrior hierarchy is rather cruel and strict no? They would have that arrogant superiority complex, where they devalue anyone other than themselves.....i picture them being very intolerant of the "weak", you know they could go on spouting off that rhetoric for ages i bet!

morke · Post by **morke** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:57 pm

i think more slums and poor areas are needed in general. the IC waterfront is really pathetic. i wonder... is it possible to bring back the occasional murderer or thief that would attack you randomly in-town at night (daggerfall)? if someone could script it so the guards didn't instantly go after them when you entered the instance, i think slums and poor areas in the bigger cities would definately have a new flavor if you had to watch your back!

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:26 am

morke wrote:i think more slums and poor areas are needed in general. the IC waterfront is really pathetic. i wonder... is it possible to bring back the occasional murderer or thief that would attack you randomly in-town at night (daggerfall)? if someone could script it so the guards didn't instantly go after them when you entered the instance, i think slums and poor areas in the bigger cities would definately have a new flavor if you had to watch your back!

Amen.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:33 am

Rihad is somewhat of a brainchild of mine, in that it is a rare occasion where most of the ideas I've had concerning it have been well-recieved. I had the idea that the city would be divided into three distinct classes. The "Upper Class" are the warriors, "Middle Class" are the tradesmen, and "Lower Class" are the laborers. In the case of Rihad, the city is not an overly oppressive place, and the laborers are not treated poorly or made to suffer. Since Rihad is lorded over by a general, not a noble, it is a more communist-type society, where everyone has a job to do, and therefore everyone has an income.
Being as Rihad is a port city, it has a bustling trade economy. The Rihad leadership is all too happy to make killings off selling their crap to the Imperial tradesmen for big profits. Because of this, labor is always needed to produce said crap. Think of it as a worker's union. The lower class does their work, and gets provided for.
Taneth, on the other hand, will have Native American-scaled oppression. You know, so bad and severe that the history books are too embaressed to admit it?

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:30 pm

@ Dexter:

Port cities attrackt all kind of scum (I should know, I've lived in two of the worst in Europe

), I think there should be at least some lower class people there. I'm not sure what you have in mind for Rihad, but I'm guessing that what you are looking to create is more of a medievil socialist society, rather than a communist one. Communism, in general, does not encourage free movement of people, moreover it would likely not make an aweful lot of money.
So think Medievil socialism rather than communism, if you must refer to some IRL political system.

I think there should be some cheap pensions around the harbour. Maybe the servants of the better off who are not interns live there too?

@ Elfane:

Those 'honest' people had better not try to bother my player character when I test it out!

BTW: Maybe begging is against the law, and the people recieve food from the Temple?

EdAptra · Post by **EdAptra** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:50 pm

I may not be right here, but my interpretation of communism is to create a classless society. Therefore i agree with Harke and Rihad's economic structure should be based on Medievel ideas of a feudal system which distinctly divides people into different classes based upon their occupations and wealth.

Im probably repeating a lot of what has been said already but hey i've been gone a while

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:44 pm

Ah, good looks like there is a lower class to Rihad afterall.

-->Morke: Drunken sailors by the docks picking a fight, thieves that ut your coinpurse. Hell yeah!

-->Harke the Apostle: The "honest" ones will not bother you if you are good to them, or else the above

Like the idea of begging is against the law, or at least an unwritten one. They are proud after all.
Also like the idea of the temple is giving away food. Imagine that between 12 and 1.pm there is a cue to the temple of people that need food. Would be nice.

-->Dexter:Agree and like everything but the communist part, sound more like a fascist society with a socialist touch. Kinda like Italy during WW2.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:57 pm

EdAptra wrote:I may not be right here, but my interpretation of communism is to create a classless society. Therefore i agree with Harke and Rihad's economic structure should be based on Medievel ideas of a feudal system which distinctly divides people into different classes based upon their occupations and wealth.

Im probably repeating a lot of what has been said already but hey i've been gone a while

Medieval socialism is different from fuedalisim.

But we are getting overly caught up in semantics here. We all know what Dexter meant- because he discribed it. Wiether we call it communisim or potatoes it dosent make a difference because such words wont appear ingame.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:28 pm

Dexter wrote:Rihad is somewhat of a brainchild of mine, in that it is a rare occasion where most of the ideas I've had concerning it have been well-recieved. I had the idea that the city would be divided into three distinct classes. The "Upper Class" are the warriors, "Middle Class" are the tradesmen, and "Lower Class" are the laborers. In the case of Rihad, the city is not an overly oppressive place, and the laborers are not treated poorly or made to suffer. Since Rihad is lorded over by a general, not a noble, it is a more communist-type society, where everyone has a job to do, and therefore everyone has an income.

I really like the sound of this - I'm all for it.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:09 pm

You see, I mention a real-world political system as a vague analogy to what I'm trying to convey, and now people are going all Wiki on me.
"Going All Wiki" is a term I shall use from now on to desribe the phenomenon that occurs when someone attempts to describe, explain, or otherwise create a lore aspect of TR using a real-world aspect. A good example was the discussion we had a while ago about ceramic armor, and the practicality thereof. In the example we are seeing here, I dropped the word "communism", and people are thinking that Rihad is going to have red flags and lots of potatoes.
To be clear, "Going All Wiki" is something to be frowned upon.
The communist analogy was meant to draw a parallel to the original concept of communism, where everyone works, and everyone is provided for. That's all.
Now, again to address the poor people that aren't in Rihad. The oppression of the poor is something done by the rich in order to keep themselves on top. However, in Rihad, the rich aren't the type that will benefit from oppressing the poor. The rich are the warriors. In a warrior society, run by a general like in Rihad, the warriors are making the most money, and living the best. The people that would be oppressing the poor, the tradesmen, make up the middle class, and they don't have the means to oppress the poor. The Rihad leadership keeps a close eye on them, and is very protective of their laborers. Rihad makes a great deal of its money from selling crap to the Imperials, and if there are poor people running around, not working to produce crap and generally screwing up the town's trade economy, then that hurts business.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:30 pm

/me completely approves every word of Dexter's post.

Plus: Shit, people, we're talking about The Fuckin' Elder Scrolls; where the Elder Council is made up of Ocato brooding alone in the basement. I mean, close your WTF-hole for a second; it's a game, it's fantasy, and it's -- as the Monty Python would say -- only a model.

If we were making a map for the "Complete Rihad Handbook" for Pen&Paper TES, yeah, there would be some slums and homeless people, despite the militaristic society. There always are. People like cripples or village idiots that are unable to provide the hard labor that's expected of them, for example.

But we can't build it up to scale (don't even ask, or whine, about that), we can't create cripples, and if we create a slum section it will represent a huge part of the "real" city. Multiply each building by something like 2000 to get an idea of what would be the "real Rihad".

Imagine the computer games are just windows that let you look at a real, but parallel, universe. It's not a clear glass, it's more like a polarizing and blurry spyglass. The colors are weird, and the things are not clear enough, you can't see a building but you can see a whole quarter and it's schematized as a single building. Something like that.

When viewed through this spyglass, the poor people of Rihad are so small that you can't see them.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 pm

Gez wrote:Imagine the computer games are just windows that let you look at a real, but parallel, universe. It's not a clear glass, it's more like a polarizing and blurry spyglass. The colors are weird, and the things are not clear enough, you can't see a building but you can see a whole quarter and it's schematized as a single building. Something like that.

When viewed through this spyglass, the poor people of Rihad are so small that you can't see them.

Gez, you're so french!

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:59 pm

--->Gez: What you say is true, we cant make Rihad as detailed as in a PnP RPG, but we can make it feel right. And to get the right feeling in a computer game (RealWorld/2000=Game, by your saying) we should know at least some of the things that the 2k people does. When we know that we can clear out what can be in game or not.

But the things that have been said here in this thread is very much possible to do in-game. If it is by books, conversation, models, scripting etc. It is even possible to make a cripple, just retexture a human, give him a new animation and voilÃƒÂ¡ you have yourself a limping cripple with a pegleg. ( Kinda like that idea )

So if you dont wanna join in our discussion, leave it be. I for one think that it is important.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:53 pm

Just call me Wiki-Jacko, but there has not been one society in the history of mankind, that didn't have a nasty backside of one kind of another.
Communism, that you menioned, has some of the most terrible prisoncamps known to man. I said this before as well, it's not so much the IRL reference, but the internal consistency that counts. If you want to create a seaside Eldorado, be my guest. Or model your city on a society that once existed (Sparta comes to mind), and flesh out the implications in Rihad.
There Wiki-ed you again!

You can ignore everything above, but think about this what does it mean to the people of Rihad that they have the kind of government that they do?

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:58 pm

Nalin fall in love...

Guy's, no communist or socialist or capitalist (capitalism is not only trade) in those times.
Just, nobility, clergymen(?) and workers, very fun to play indeed. And the power belongs to the owners of the land, not to the traders...

Rotterdam is the biggest harbor of the world and don't look like so poor as many cities in Europe.

But, i agree, it could be fun. (BL will be full of poors, for sure, but every-body-will-not-like-'m-sure-this-city)

And yes, we are free from reality, even, sometimes, from Lores.

Wiki, wiki, wiki

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:55 pm

kebra wrote: Rotterdam is the biggest harbor of the world and don't look like so poor as many cities in Europe.

You didn't go to the wrong neighborhoods then. I happened to live there in one of the worst neighborhoods of the country. Rotterdam has huge problems with homelessness poverty and crime and to top it all off, even though half of the houses in some neighborhoods are empty, it's very hard to find a place to live there.

Any kind of communist, socialist or timarchic (Wiki that) society would have LOTS AND LOTS of LC houses rather than none at all. Even in a game.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:13 pm

Stop dragging the word "communist" to the foreground, it was a metaphore, nothing more.

"Militarist" is more apt. The city is lead by a general. Everybody inside is a trooper or an officer under the general's order.

There's no lower class, there are second-class privates instead. And while poverty may exist as a lack of all luxuries, squalor simply isn't allowed. When something is broken, it must be repaired. When something is dirty, it must be cleaned. When someone is ill, he must be healed. When someone doesn't comply, he must be disciplined. When someone betrays, he must be executed. You're in the army now!

The city is managed like a garrison, and in this way it is somewhat communistic. But it's not a sovietic system.

And for the wiki-addict, look up [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz]Kibbutz[/url] to see another example of communism. Less extrem than that, look up [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery#Monastic_life_in_western_Medieval_Europe]this[/url].

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:34 pm

Gez wrote:Stop dragging the word "communist" to the foreground, it was a metaphore, nothing more.

and a rather poor one at that. I like 'potatoism' better.

Gez wrote: There's no lower class, there are second-class privates instead. And while poverty may exist as a lack of all luxuries, squalor simply isn't allowed.

Lc = squalor Xor Lc = low cost housing?

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:14 pm

Besides, the "port-side city with squalor and ruffians" idea has already been done, Anvil, in Cyrodil.

Gez and Dex have provided satisfactory answers.
Rihad is going to be something with a decent idea behind it, and we'll make sure the player knows that.
Lets stop the bickering.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:19 pm

Yes, Gez! you are so french.

Ok for Rotterdam, like all huge cities but no more.

morke · Post by **morke** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:29 pm

EDIT:CONDENSED:
something that was barely tapped in Skingrad is very important. when you walk down the street it feels like your walking in between apartments. there were actualy a few alleysand hidden yards.
if you look behind two skingrad houses, you can see that they are at angles, with the front part of the houses touching. this creates a big V-shaped alley that serves no purpose other than bad fung-shway
if you connect the back parts of those houses, you will drop the polycounts by the hundreds for each individual building.

i.e. this could be used to make easier alleys.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:40 am

I'd like to further expand my official stance on Going All Wiki.
If someone Goes All Wiki on a subject that has actual implications on the product of TR, their contributions to the discussion will be ignored by me.
"So what!" say the WikiGoers.
Well, not only am I the Head of Exteriors, but I'm also the Lore and Quest moderator, meaning I have control of all this. The wrong way to convince me of your point is to Go All Wiki on me. I will close up, become extremely unreceptive to your ideas, and generally ignore your existance.
I can be persuaded to change my point of view. Sload, the little fucker, has convinced me to change my points of view on lore subjects several times. He does it by arguing his point using only Elder Scrolls lore and common logic, but not by drawing parallels to real-world stuff.
Harke, I appreciate your enthusiasm for TR lore, but I have to be straight with you man. When it comes to making lore decisions here, your arguments are usually, if not always, ignored. You just don't argue things using the mindset and evidence that we are looking for when making lore decisions. Sorry dude, but I feel I had to be honest. If you really want to make the most of your contributions here, you need to put a lid on the Wiki and open up a can of TIL.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:42 am

morke wrote:of course we don't need 2000 people in the city, but we need more than 50.

No.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:52 am

Morke?

What's your medieval feeling in Port Telvanni?

morke · Post by **morke** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:29 am

actualy my post has absolutely nothing to do with lore. I wont argue ES lore cause i know nothing of it. im talking about increasing physical gameplay with less trouble. Im sorry for the wiki appearence but i try to post my idea once: so if you dislike it then you only have to ignore it once. its polycounts. im a mesher. so i look at polycounts.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:33 am

morke wrote:if you look behind two skingrad houses, you can see that they are at angles, with the front part of the houses touching. this creates a big V-shaped alley that serves no purpose other than bad fung-shway

It also makes the street look more organic. The only way to connect the backs and the fronts yet retain an organic look is to make buildings with a non-orthogonal floorplan.

Of course, Rihad, as a military-minded city, may be quite orthogonal, like barrackments. But for most cities, we'll want to use more trapezoids.

I agree that the alleys don't look good, that's why they shouldn't be visible at all -- just create an irregular-yet-compact "circle" of houses hiding the offending parts and there you go.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:46 am

Why is this thread not locked? Isn't it getting a bit pointless now? The "Rihad - will-it-have-LC-will-it-not" debate was never really a debate in the first place. Dex has explained it clearly and the idea sounds great and distinct. If anyone else doesn't like it - wait until it's released and re-mod it yourself.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:00 am

What would be achieved by locking it?

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:18 pm

I guess all it would stand to achieve is to annoy a few people - that wasn't very nice of me was it?

"Freedom of speach?" - Nah!...I hope i never go into politics! :/

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:50 pm

Next Lore discussion please.
wanders off...

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:49 pm

First things first, I've been against the lack of LC areas in Rihad as well. Although it's fantasy and all, TES series always use the real world as a reference. Rihad is a a major port, and as such it should indeed house all sorts of scums and misfits.
Second, about the random fights in the cities; if we offer enough sacrificies to Neoptolemus (and compensation for his time and whatever else), we might convince him to make MCA for oblivion. But then, Fransesco has already been up to the task since the game's launch.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:51 pm

El Scumbago wrote:First things first, I've been against the lack of LC areas in Rihad as well. Although it's fantasy and all, TES series always use the real world as a reference. Rihad is a a major port, and as such it should indeed house all sorts of scums and misfits.

Who needs misfits when we have Dexter?
[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/6310/necromancersgi5.jpg[/img][/url]

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:57 pm

I'm not so much perturbed by the lack of LC in Rihad than by the fact that Rihad seems that it will be very utopian, while every other major city in Hammerfell is clearly going to have their problems.

Is there a clear downside to Rihad?

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:59 pm

Nomadic1 wrote:Is there a clear downside to Rihad?

How about the fact that I made its concepts?

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:25 pm

Scummy dont be down on yourself your concepts are awesome!! i am supper excited to see how they look with textures and in game!! *wink* Noir, textures! *wink*

As for potential downsides we could have it be overly violent. And maybe they keep a real tight authoritarian control overthings, as this is a warrior town right?

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:37 pm

Fairwater's right, its only utopian on the surface. The general is *forcing* people of every class to work and be productive. Lack of free will. Opression. Not what I deem utopian at all.

But on the bright side, all the poor get to live there. And the upper class snobs have to be productive, probably admin and businesses etc.

Perhaps they cram many poor people into fewer middle class housing, rather than giving them each their own space. That would be harsh treatment.

As for the designs of lower class buildings. They could be used for villages (Chougrand or Roseguard) or Taneth. I'm sure they'll see the light of day...